that is 100% irrelevant to competitive pokemon and you know it, why did you even bother giving that as a reason? are you as likely to use extrasensory or shadowball on your raikou on shoddy because hp ground/ice aren't as accessible? and "really shouldn't be using that slot anyway" is just horrible and contradictory, you may think i am being mean but seriously "what?" if you're going to express indifference at the usefulness of a moveslot why even bother sounding off on it?
anyway, i know i am not a salamence nor do i "own" all salamence everywhere but i am at the least amused at the fact that several of you think i did not run extensive calcs (like i have to back up my "For some numbers:" posts for a good two years now) when i wrote the original analysis and suggested hp ground over hydro pump and not earthquake. let me go over this one more time.
Empoleon has been calm like 23% of the time over the last three months on both the standard and suspect ladders. Its usage has steadily dropped the last three months, from #53 to #57 to #64. Even if we assume that all Calm Empoleon used were all 252HP/252SpD, does a BL pokemon 64th in usage really warrant a -Def Nature and a move inferior to its special counterpart in literally every other situation? No, and here is why:
Modest, 350 SpA Choice Specs Salamence using Hidden Power Ground on a 372HP/301SpD (max/max) "Modest" Empoleon: 47.31-55.91%
you guys seem to think that "with stealth rock down" is a convincing argument and to this end maybe you know something i dont, so hey, i am going to use it here to make my point: over 60% of the time, Empoleon will be 2HKOed by Specsmence HP Ground. the above calc reflects a 75.48% chance of a max HP/SpD neutral SpD nature Empoleon being 2HKOed, and when you multiply the ~77% chance that a neutral SpD nature will be the case, and then further account for the high possibility that not all Calm Empoleon are ("were") 252HP/252SpD and the 3.55% chance that Specsmence HP Ground still 2HKOs 372HP/331SpD Empoleon (the most Specially defensive spread possible), you get something like 61% as the chance any Empoleon will be 2HKOed by HP Ground (the statistics are not so refined as to indicate the EVs that any given Nature used in practice but Empoleon maxed SpD only about 31% of the time). Why isn't that "enough" for a BL pokemon especially when you consider the fact that Empoleon is not going to be at 100% HP, as my calcs generously reflect, every time it switches in to counter Specsmence regardless of SR?
Obviously HP Ground outdamages EQ in every other situation of note, unless we want to start touting "Max HP/SpD Careful Probopass/Bastiodon in a Sandstorm" as Specsmence counters. Even then, EQ will actually never OHKO either one at full HP, doing 99% max to Probopass and 87% max to Bastiodon, even with a neutral Attack nature that lowers one of your defenses, where HP ground 2HKOs both almost every time (49% min to max/max 324HP/438SpD Careful Probopass in the sand) so yeah just covering all bases here. So, unless you're afraid of running into Empoleon in general, and it not being 2HKOed 39% of the time if you do, if it has 100% HP when it switches in, don't use Earthquake on Specsmence, which simplifies to don't use Earthquake on Specsmence.
you've been saying this stuff for a while and i am going to prove you wrong now so you stop:
Standard non-Scarf Heatran is slower than Specsmence every time. Salamence does 102% minimum with Specs Hydro Pump to the most defensive set that has a move that can hit Salamence for SE (the alternate option on the last move on the last set in the analysis). The most defensive set has only a 300 SpA Overheat to hit Salamence with, and will therefore never have anything to do with Specsmence heads up until it is too late.
Since non-Scarf Heatran is slower than Salamence and probably knows it, it will not likely be switching in unless sure that it is a Specsmence and that it will not be using its fourth move. But since it is slower than Salamence and will also always die to Hydro Pump if it hits, it cannot pose a threat to Salamence outside of bluffing a Choice Scarf (which won't be possible with SR down if Heatran has Leftovers). If Heatran were set on staying in on the second turn for whatever reason, Salamence would have a 96% chance of killing it.
Scarf Heatran has no more than 40 HP EVs, going on both the current analysis and what's been posted in the Platinum revamp. Specs Hydro Pump kills 80% of the time Heatran Switches in. Regardless of what move Salamence used, Scarf Heatran is a 100% check to any Choice Salamence.
Besides, is Heatran switching into Salamence straightaway now that DD is all the more popular? In the same way Heatran is a Scizor check but not necessarily a counter thanks to Superpower (and Bullet Punch to clean up if needed), Scarftran is a Salamence check but not a counter thanks to DD.
The real issue is the seeming disregard of Hydro Pump's damage on everything that could predict a Ground move on Specsmence. By the nature of Choice pokemon, we are only concerned with those pokemon who are certain they are facing Specsmence, one that is not locked in to any move, and they haven't seen its fourth move but are predicting a move they will either be immune to or take not too much damage from. For some relevant numbers on standard, popular spreads, Modest, 350SpA Choice Specs Salamence's Hydro Pump on:
332HP/236SpD (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 29-34% (anything but Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse)
282HP/196SpD (4EVs/min) Scizor: 82-96% (Scizor is relevant because of Dragon Pulse, either ground move and the threat of Bullet Punch)
341HP/196SpD (min/min) Salamence: 34-40% (anything but Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse)
338HP/320SpD (max/96EVs) Bronzong: 42-49% (anything but Fire Blast)
386HP/296SpD (20EVs/min) Cresselia: 39-46% (either ground move and general bulk)
In every case but Scizor's regarding possible viable switches into Specsmence, HP Ground does literally nothing. Pokemon like Blissey and Snorlax aren't listed because they don't resist anything Specsmence can throw at them, but I would be remiss if I didn't note that Hydro Pump's average damage is still 96 to Hidden Power's 70. You can even miss with the first Hydro Pump and stay in to fire again on a low HP (pokemon that is both 2HKOed by HP Ground and OHKOed by Hydro Pump). 140 damage is very close to 120, and this difference is more than made up in my opinion when you remember that locked-in Water is a fantasic attacking type with only three resistances, one of which is hard-pressed to switch into the Dragon-Type Specsmence since half its moves will OHKO, compared to locked-in Ground, which not only type can exploit (three) but Ability as well (Water Absorb is very scarce compared to Levitate).
And then there is the general damage issue: if you take normal damage from both Pump and HP Ground, Pump is superior, as in the case of Blissey and Snorlax. If you take SE damage from HP Ground but normal damage from Pump, Hydro Pump is probably a 2HKO anyway, as in the case of pokemon like Metagross. Only Magnezone is OHKOed by HP Ground every time where Pump doesn't stand a significant chance of OHKOing as well (76% max), since Pump does 107% max to Lucario, and HP Ground does 79% max to Metagross (never OHKOs).
Finally, there's the deterrent issue: Hydro Pump can at least deter, by virtue of no immunities and general inexploitability compared to HP Ground, pokemon like the above Bronzong and Gyarados and Cresselia if Salamence is locked in, where there is just not much that a 70 base power HP Ground is going to be deterred by since there are just not that many pokes that are weak to ground, meaning that Salamence must switch instead of just considering switching. There are five pokemon in the latest top 25 that are weak to Ground: Heatran, Lucario, Metagross, Infernape and Tyranitar. Heatran carries a Scarf some 63% of the time, making the move Specsmence is locked in on a moot point since it outspeed for the HP Ice OHKO threat. Lucario takes 107% max from Pump anyway as stated above, which guarantees death by way of LO recoil if it uses Extremespeed but doesn't kill and Sala hits with Pump...and if faster with Ice Punch Luke makes the locked-in move a moot point. Metagross takes 79% max from HP Ground as stated above but 68% max from Pump and is honestly deterred by either, regardless of the moot-point Bullet Punch. And Infernape and Tyranitar are of course hit harder by Pump. I don't know how more plain it can be that Hydro Pump not only doesn't "suck balls" but should still be the main option over HP Ground.
In sum, those posting in peer edits should probably have a very good handle on the reasoning behind the original sets for which they are suggesting changes!
anyway, i know i am not a salamence nor do i "own" all salamence everywhere but i am at the least amused at the fact that several of you think i did not run extensive calcs (like i have to back up my "For some numbers:" posts for a good two years now) when i wrote the original analysis and suggested hp ground over hydro pump and not earthquake. let me go over this one more time.
Empoleon has been calm like 23% of the time over the last three months on both the standard and suspect ladders. Its usage has steadily dropped the last three months, from #53 to #57 to #64. Even if we assume that all Calm Empoleon used were all 252HP/252SpD, does a BL pokemon 64th in usage really warrant a -Def Nature and a move inferior to its special counterpart in literally every other situation? No, and here is why:
Modest, 350 SpA Choice Specs Salamence using Hidden Power Ground on a 372HP/301SpD (max/max) "Modest" Empoleon: 47.31-55.91%
you guys seem to think that "with stealth rock down" is a convincing argument and to this end maybe you know something i dont, so hey, i am going to use it here to make my point: over 60% of the time, Empoleon will be 2HKOed by Specsmence HP Ground. the above calc reflects a 75.48% chance of a max HP/SpD neutral SpD nature Empoleon being 2HKOed, and when you multiply the ~77% chance that a neutral SpD nature will be the case, and then further account for the high possibility that not all Calm Empoleon are ("were") 252HP/252SpD and the 3.55% chance that Specsmence HP Ground still 2HKOs 372HP/331SpD Empoleon (the most Specially defensive spread possible), you get something like 61% as the chance any Empoleon will be 2HKOed by HP Ground (the statistics are not so refined as to indicate the EVs that any given Nature used in practice but Empoleon maxed SpD only about 31% of the time). Why isn't that "enough" for a BL pokemon especially when you consider the fact that Empoleon is not going to be at 100% HP, as my calcs generously reflect, every time it switches in to counter Specsmence regardless of SR?
Obviously HP Ground outdamages EQ in every other situation of note, unless we want to start touting "Max HP/SpD Careful Probopass/Bastiodon in a Sandstorm" as Specsmence counters. Even then, EQ will actually never OHKO either one at full HP, doing 99% max to Probopass and 87% max to Bastiodon, even with a neutral Attack nature that lowers one of your defenses, where HP ground 2HKOs both almost every time (49% min to max/max 324HP/438SpD Careful Probopass in the sand) so yeah just covering all bases here. So, unless you're afraid of running into Empoleon in general, and it not being 2HKOed 39% of the time if you do, if it has 100% HP when it switches in, don't use Earthquake on Specsmence, which simplifies to don't use Earthquake on Specsmence.
you've been saying this stuff for a while and i am going to prove you wrong now so you stop:
Standard non-Scarf Heatran is slower than Specsmence every time. Salamence does 102% minimum with Specs Hydro Pump to the most defensive set that has a move that can hit Salamence for SE (the alternate option on the last move on the last set in the analysis). The most defensive set has only a 300 SpA Overheat to hit Salamence with, and will therefore never have anything to do with Specsmence heads up until it is too late.
Since non-Scarf Heatran is slower than Salamence and probably knows it, it will not likely be switching in unless sure that it is a Specsmence and that it will not be using its fourth move. But since it is slower than Salamence and will also always die to Hydro Pump if it hits, it cannot pose a threat to Salamence outside of bluffing a Choice Scarf (which won't be possible with SR down if Heatran has Leftovers). If Heatran were set on staying in on the second turn for whatever reason, Salamence would have a 96% chance of killing it.
Scarf Heatran has no more than 40 HP EVs, going on both the current analysis and what's been posted in the Platinum revamp. Specs Hydro Pump kills 80% of the time Heatran Switches in. Regardless of what move Salamence used, Scarf Heatran is a 100% check to any Choice Salamence.
Besides, is Heatran switching into Salamence straightaway now that DD is all the more popular? In the same way Heatran is a Scizor check but not necessarily a counter thanks to Superpower (and Bullet Punch to clean up if needed), Scarftran is a Salamence check but not a counter thanks to DD.
The real issue is the seeming disregard of Hydro Pump's damage on everything that could predict a Ground move on Specsmence. By the nature of Choice pokemon, we are only concerned with those pokemon who are certain they are facing Specsmence, one that is not locked in to any move, and they haven't seen its fourth move but are predicting a move they will either be immune to or take not too much damage from. For some relevant numbers on standard, popular spreads, Modest, 350SpA Choice Specs Salamence's Hydro Pump on:
332HP/236SpD (4EVs/min) Gyarados: 29-34% (anything but Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse)
282HP/196SpD (4EVs/min) Scizor: 82-96% (Scizor is relevant because of Dragon Pulse, either ground move and the threat of Bullet Punch)
341HP/196SpD (min/min) Salamence: 34-40% (anything but Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse)
338HP/320SpD (max/96EVs) Bronzong: 42-49% (anything but Fire Blast)
386HP/296SpD (20EVs/min) Cresselia: 39-46% (either ground move and general bulk)
In every case but Scizor's regarding possible viable switches into Specsmence, HP Ground does literally nothing. Pokemon like Blissey and Snorlax aren't listed because they don't resist anything Specsmence can throw at them, but I would be remiss if I didn't note that Hydro Pump's average damage is still 96 to Hidden Power's 70. You can even miss with the first Hydro Pump and stay in to fire again on a low HP (pokemon that is both 2HKOed by HP Ground and OHKOed by Hydro Pump). 140 damage is very close to 120, and this difference is more than made up in my opinion when you remember that locked-in Water is a fantasic attacking type with only three resistances, one of which is hard-pressed to switch into the Dragon-Type Specsmence since half its moves will OHKO, compared to locked-in Ground, which not only type can exploit (three) but Ability as well (Water Absorb is very scarce compared to Levitate).
And then there is the general damage issue: if you take normal damage from both Pump and HP Ground, Pump is superior, as in the case of Blissey and Snorlax. If you take SE damage from HP Ground but normal damage from Pump, Hydro Pump is probably a 2HKO anyway, as in the case of pokemon like Metagross. Only Magnezone is OHKOed by HP Ground every time where Pump doesn't stand a significant chance of OHKOing as well (76% max), since Pump does 107% max to Lucario, and HP Ground does 79% max to Metagross (never OHKOs).
Finally, there's the deterrent issue: Hydro Pump can at least deter, by virtue of no immunities and general inexploitability compared to HP Ground, pokemon like the above Bronzong and Gyarados and Cresselia if Salamence is locked in, where there is just not much that a 70 base power HP Ground is going to be deterred by since there are just not that many pokes that are weak to ground, meaning that Salamence must switch instead of just considering switching. There are five pokemon in the latest top 25 that are weak to Ground: Heatran, Lucario, Metagross, Infernape and Tyranitar. Heatran carries a Scarf some 63% of the time, making the move Specsmence is locked in on a moot point since it outspeed for the HP Ice OHKO threat. Lucario takes 107% max from Pump anyway as stated above, which guarantees death by way of LO recoil if it uses Extremespeed but doesn't kill and Sala hits with Pump...and if faster with Ice Punch Luke makes the locked-in move a moot point. Metagross takes 79% max from HP Ground as stated above but 68% max from Pump and is honestly deterred by either, regardless of the moot-point Bullet Punch. And Infernape and Tyranitar are of course hit harder by Pump. I don't know how more plain it can be that Hydro Pump not only doesn't "suck balls" but should still be the main option over HP Ground.
In sum, those posting in peer edits should probably have a very good handle on the reasoning behind the original sets for which they are suggesting changes!
