Those sets seem to be really useful, but I have one question. Why Hasty and Mild over Naive and Rash? Reason I ask is because coupled with Intimidate, it can still take hits reasonable well when his Defense isn't lowered. And general, most Special Attackers have enough Special Attack to KO you with Ice Beam.
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Salamence (Full Revamp)
- Thread starter Great Sage
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There was a whole schpeel about how HP Ground outdamages EQ, even against a Calm Empoleon in the analysis of Salamence, I've quoted it before when talking about Salamence. Whether its wrong, or if for some reason isnt there any more, I dont know.
As far as I'm concerned, its really a non-issue since you wont be getting any OHKOs that HP Ground wouldnt give you. Either move could go in that slot and it would be just as effective. I guess since EQ is easier to teach Salamence in-game, we should go with that.
Impeccable Salamence sets as always Aldaron. A few minor nitpicks.... as someone asked before... why -Def instead of -SpDef? The only special attacks people use on Mence are Ice Beam anyway so I'd rather keep the defense with Intimidate.
This set here:
Other options for this set include Dragon Dance... "bluffmence" actually works pretty well from testing it. So I bolded my recommendations.
This set here:
Fantastic set... but I disagree with the EV spread (I will test yours though). You may lose some special attack points but I suggested going Naive with 176 Speed EVs to hit 308. Nice for Jolly Lucario and this resurgence I'm seeing of Porygon-Z. Not to mention most other mences aren't running +speed, and most other base 100s don't either so you outspeed all of them. With 308, this Salamence can actually pose both a sweeping and wall-breaking threat. As you know how the set works, after you Draco Meteor something to hell, another pokemon comes in eager to set up while you just Outrage it to oblivion without switching out. It's nice to have the speed to be able to do that. Another minor nitpick... I prefer Flamethrower > Fire Blast for two reasons: 1) Fire Blast doesn't OHKO anything Significant that Flamethrower won't IIRC and 2) Flamethrower's accuracy really can help in situations where you have a weakened flying pokemon / leviatator. I've ran accross Gliscor's before at 30% and without Flamethrower, I'd have to lock myself into Outrage, kill my special attack with Draco Meteor (and the chance that it misses and they kill me), or risk the inaccuracy of Fire Blast...
Other options for this set include Dragon Dance... "bluffmence" actually works pretty well from testing it. So I bolded my recommendations.
Bluffmence with Dragon Fang surprisingly seems more effective than with Life Orb. Get any kind of rocks up there, and its trying to late game outrage sweep with 30% health and potential sandstorm, not exactly ideal. And Rash nature (too many physical priority moves to ignore) with EV's. 156 Attack/136 Speed/216 Sp Att seems to work very well.
As for why so little speed, with Scarfchomp taken out and potentially Deo-E as well, Scarfcross is the upper limit for things you're trying to outspeed with a DD, and without a DD you're already caught in the middle ground by giving it an Adamant nature. Ex: when you're against something like Zapdos you're either going to be horribly outsped or able to outspeed it, and like I mentioned before, practical Ice Punching Lucarios are going to be Jolly anyway, so if you want to make Mence faster, you have to make it a lot faster, those extra few EV's are just taking away from its overall attacking power.
Basically, I'm making the case for listing Bluffmence separately rather than as a variant of mixmence, due to the option of Dragon Fang over Life Orb, different usage, and different EV's. That is all fellas.
EDIT: well that is actually not all, because I see the Jolly option mentioned and it is a great idea for the Mixmence set with Life Orb, if you're going +Attack rather than Speed I'd lean more towards cutting back on speed as I did with Bluffmence but maybe even more because you're hopelessly caught in that middle ground where you're going more for hit and run where you want to hit with as much power as you can before switching out because you really don't know what you're going to be outspeeding.
As for why so little speed, with Scarfchomp taken out and potentially Deo-E as well, Scarfcross is the upper limit for things you're trying to outspeed with a DD, and without a DD you're already caught in the middle ground by giving it an Adamant nature. Ex: when you're against something like Zapdos you're either going to be horribly outsped or able to outspeed it, and like I mentioned before, practical Ice Punching Lucarios are going to be Jolly anyway, so if you want to make Mence faster, you have to make it a lot faster, those extra few EV's are just taking away from its overall attacking power.
Basically, I'm making the case for listing Bluffmence separately rather than as a variant of mixmence, due to the option of Dragon Fang over Life Orb, different usage, and different EV's. That is all fellas.
EDIT: well that is actually not all, because I see the Jolly option mentioned and it is a great idea for the Mixmence set with Life Orb, if you're going +Attack rather than Speed I'd lean more towards cutting back on speed as I did with Bluffmence but maybe even more because you're hopelessly caught in that middle ground where you're going more for hit and run where you want to hit with as much power as you can before switching out because you really don't know what you're going to be outspeeding.
Going with Dragon Fang you won't kill shit with Earthquake that you may need to kill like fucking Tyranitar. If weather bothers so many people, its not that hard to pack a Rain Dancer.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
I'll finish this over the next week.
Bluffmence with Dragon Fang uses Fire Blast over Earthquake, because Dragon + Fire covers every type (Draco Meteor still at least hits Heatran and Tyranitar for decent unrecoverable damage, whereas Skarm and Scizor can counter you all day). If you're going to use Earthquake, then Life Orb is the item of choice, but I really like the balance between durability and power that the Fang + Fire Blaster provides.
By that I mean this:
[SET]
name: Bluffmence 2
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Dragon Dance
Outrage
item: Dragon Fang
nature: Rash
EV's: 156 Attack/136 Speed/216 Sp Att
Because Salamence standardly has Earthquake, Heatran and T-tar arent going to even be switching into you until after you have unleashed some powerful blows.
By that I mean this:
[SET]
name: Bluffmence 2
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Dragon Dance
Outrage
item: Dragon Fang
nature: Rash
EV's: 156 Attack/136 Speed/216 Sp Att
Because Salamence standardly has Earthquake, Heatran and T-tar arent going to even be switching into you until after you have unleashed some powerful blows.
I had think a Moveset for Mence:
Salamence@ Life Orb
Mild/ Rash Nature
252 EVs Atk
112 EVs Spe
140 Evs SpA
Outrage
Fire Blast
Hidro Pump/ DD
Earthquake/ DD
Fire Blast is OHKO to Skarmory and Outrage is OHKO to Blissey with 1 DD.
Earthquake + Hidro Pump + Fire Blast cover very good all types and + 1 DD is OHKO to many pokemon.
Salamence@ Life Orb
Mild/ Rash Nature
252 EVs Atk
112 EVs Spe
140 Evs SpA
Outrage
Fire Blast
Hidro Pump/ DD
Earthquake/ DD
Fire Blast is OHKO to Skarmory and Outrage is OHKO to Blissey with 1 DD.
Earthquake + Hidro Pump + Fire Blast cover very good all types and + 1 DD is OHKO to many pokemon.
thats the main set....
Great sets aldaron. I'll look forward to testing out the new special bulky mence, I tried altering the old one on my own to aid platinum, but to no avail.
My thoughts on the CBmence without testing your set (so obviously nothing important): I prefer + attack for pure power, although I'll really need to test out +speed first, I rarely ever regret using +attack. Is there anything that the +attack ohko's or 2hko's that the neutral doesn't? I could've sworn that there was, but that might have been garchomp. The special attack ev's aren't important to me, since I'd rather just 2hko celebi with outrage. To go with that point, I really don't like running a -def/spc def nature on salamence since intimidate allows it to take weak resisted attacks (mach punch?) and he has a slew of good special resistances to switch in on (grass knot, surf). To me earthquake is a better option than aqua tail if you only use one of them. It allows you to deal with jirachi, metagross, ttar, and heatran. I do prefer aqua tail on cbtar but it doesn't quite work for me on mence, although I have yet to run both. My 4th move is dragon claw for scouting, but I rarely use it. In fact, I most often find myself using outrage, even if I don't know the opponent's team, since something is bound to die, as most people expect some variant of ddmence.
Great sets though :d
My thoughts on the CBmence without testing your set (so obviously nothing important): I prefer + attack for pure power, although I'll really need to test out +speed first, I rarely ever regret using +attack. Is there anything that the +attack ohko's or 2hko's that the neutral doesn't? I could've sworn that there was, but that might have been garchomp. The special attack ev's aren't important to me, since I'd rather just 2hko celebi with outrage. To go with that point, I really don't like running a -def/spc def nature on salamence since intimidate allows it to take weak resisted attacks (mach punch?) and he has a slew of good special resistances to switch in on (grass knot, surf). To me earthquake is a better option than aqua tail if you only use one of them. It allows you to deal with jirachi, metagross, ttar, and heatran. I do prefer aqua tail on cbtar but it doesn't quite work for me on mence, although I have yet to run both. My 4th move is dragon claw for scouting, but I rarely use it. In fact, I most often find myself using outrage, even if I don't know the opponent's team, since something is bound to die, as most people expect some variant of ddmence.
Great sets though :d
Ah yes, that was probably what I was thinking about. Since cbmence is on my "antistall team" I thought that taking out hippo was worth the drop in speed. Thanks Lee, I kept thinking it was cressy, but the calcs didn't come out right when I tried it earlier.
Ooof, I forgot Cress tbh.
Jolly Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Cresselia does 43-50%. With Stealth Rock + Leftovers you have a 48% chance to 2HKO. With Stealth Rock in a Sandstorm you have a 98% chance to 2HKO.
Adamant Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Cresselia does 47-56% which guarantees the 2HKO after SR and has an 81% chance of 2HKOing without it, provided SS is present. Without SR, SS and assuming Cresselia has Leftovers, you have a 24% chance to 2HKO.
Jolly Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Cresselia does 43-50%. With Stealth Rock + Leftovers you have a 48% chance to 2HKO. With Stealth Rock in a Sandstorm you have a 98% chance to 2HKO.
Adamant Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Cresselia does 47-56% which guarantees the 2HKO after SR and has an 81% chance of 2HKOing without it, provided SS is present. Without SR, SS and assuming Cresselia has Leftovers, you have a 24% chance to 2HKO.
To be honest, I think the easiest thing is just to list both +Speed and +Attack / Special Attack natures for the sets and have a little paragraph, maybe 1 or 2 sentences describing one or two benefits of each.
Lee's sentences in the past two posts are what I'm talking about. Maybe some calculations for the 2HKO with the +Attack nature on a common enemy and maybe a sentence regarding what you might need to outspeed commonly.
Lee's sentences in the past two posts are what I'm talking about. Maybe some calculations for the 2HKO with the +Attack nature on a common enemy and maybe a sentence regarding what you might need to outspeed commonly.
I agree with RaikouLover that MixMence is totally outclassed by Dragonite now.
I would also like to add that the Specially Defencive set is outclassed as well.
Dragonite has superior SpDef (100 vs 80). The only reason why BulkyMence is used over BulkyNite is Intimidate, which simply doesn't matter for a Specially Defencive set, hence, Dragonite would suit this set much better, especially if you consider in, that he also learns Light Screen and has superior support options in Thunderwave and Heal Bell
I would also like to add that the Specially Defencive set is outclassed as well.
Dragonite has superior SpDef (100 vs 80). The only reason why BulkyMence is used over BulkyNite is Intimidate, which simply doesn't matter for a Specially Defencive set, hence, Dragonite would suit this set much better, especially if you consider in, that he also learns Light Screen and has superior support options in Thunderwave and Heal Bell
Actually, Salamence is better suited based on the EVs that Aldaron provided. Dragonite would need to run Jolly to outrun Skymin which would leave him with significantly lower Attack power than his dragon bretheren.
For reference, Aldaron's SpD orientated BulkyMence set has the following stats; 345 HP / 370 Atk / 196 Def / 254 SpD / 260 Spe
With Adamant 88 HP / 132 Atk / 72 SpD / 218 Spe Dragonite can reach an almost identical stat total; the only differences being 'Nite's 226 Def compared to Salamence's 196 and 'Nite's 250 Spe compared to Salamence's 260.
Dragonite is cetainly capable of the job, but I wouldn't say he fully outclasses Mence due to 'Nite's inability to outrun the likes of Weavile and Skymin after a DD. Interested to see what Aldaron says though as it's a pretty close race!
While on the point of Aldaron's BulkyMence, are you sure you're happy maxing at 260 Speed, Al? With an extra 16 Speed EVs you'll outrun Jolteon and Aerodactyl after a DD which seems like it might be a decent investment considering both of them have the potential to force you out or kill you. I understand the point of that Salamence isn't to sweep but it's only 16 EVs...
No Lee, the simple fact that Dragonite has Light Screen has the special defensive Salamene outclassed. Think about it, you take 80-90%ish from Ice Beam... and some 40%-45% while roosting, which gains you less than 10% net HP, meaning you have to roost up 8 more times just to be able to Dragon Dance again, which leaves you at a high probability for Ice Beam freeze or a crit which totally ruins it either way. Hence why Light Screen Dragonite is the only one I can see doing this set. While roosting, you take a meager 20% from Ice Beam, meaning you can get back up to health and Dragon Dance pretty easily. Otherwise, I think the Specially Defensive Salamence / Dragonite sets are pretty fail. I can see this Salamence beating its Cressy or Vaporeon while they Ice Beam you, but then you are at no health and something can revenge you quite easily with priority. Dragonite on the other hand can Light Screen up, get 2 or 3 DDs, recover back to full health then go for the kill with Outrage and come out with a lot of HP to spare.
MixNite doesn't completely outclass Mixmence. MixNite outclasses the Draco Meteor / Brick Break / Fire Blast set, being able to OHKO Blissey and all. However, the "new" Mixmence plays pretty differently than Dragonite and has more sweeping potential.
MixNite doesn't completely outclass Mixmence. MixNite outclasses the Draco Meteor / Brick Break / Fire Blast set, being able to OHKO Blissey and all. However, the "new" Mixmence plays pretty differently than Dragonite and has more sweeping potential.
Analysis didn't factor in neutral Attack nature.
The bottom paragraph is addressed by Aldaron's posts a few pages back.
In theory, yes, but the Special Defensive Salamence set is DD/Roost/EQ/Outrage and even if Mence did have access to Light Screen, I very much doubt he would bother to use it so I don't think Dragonite's ability to use Light Screen counts for much in this instance.
Light Screen Dragonite is cool though.
Aldaron, I agree with you almost in each set, just I like the idea to discuss with you about bulky mence (impish)
I used to run this set in the past:
216 Hp, 52 Attack, 104 Defence, 136 Speed
Impish @ Lum berry/leftovers
Moveset: Flametrowher, Roost, Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw
Basicaly, this set reach 385 HP / 319 Atk / 244 Def / 270 Spe:
those stats let you outspeed Scarf Heracross, while keeping as much defence as the old bulky-dos, with an ODD HP (5° swich in with SR up).
Also I used to run a special fire move (flametrowher/blast), because as you know, this salamence will comes in and out as many times as possible, so steel pkms will be lured in... and I think that both skarm and bronzong will still be very common...
So, what do you think about using a fire move over eartquake? maybe even Fire fang? (but you set up for done some good damage)
Regarding the speed EVs I agree with you that *could* be pointless to reach Adamant Lucario speed, because I think Jolly Lucke will be pretty common now, still, as other people say, what about some more speed evs?
Also, I think that the attack evs in my spread should be used in defence instead, but still, what do you think about the HP and Stealth rock factor?
I used to run this set in the past:
216 Hp, 52 Attack, 104 Defence, 136 Speed
Impish @ Lum berry/leftovers
Moveset: Flametrowher, Roost, Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw
Basicaly, this set reach 385 HP / 319 Atk / 244 Def / 270 Spe:
those stats let you outspeed Scarf Heracross, while keeping as much defence as the old bulky-dos, with an ODD HP (5° swich in with SR up).
Also I used to run a special fire move (flametrowher/blast), because as you know, this salamence will comes in and out as many times as possible, so steel pkms will be lured in... and I think that both skarm and bronzong will still be very common...
So, what do you think about using a fire move over eartquake? maybe even Fire fang? (but you set up for done some good damage)
Regarding the speed EVs I agree with you that *could* be pointless to reach Adamant Lucario speed, because I think Jolly Lucke will be pretty common now, still, as other people say, what about some more speed evs?
Also, I think that the attack evs in my spread should be used in defence instead, but still, what do you think about the HP and Stealth rock factor?
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