Salamence (Full Revamp)

[Great Sage]

will post rest later


[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Stone Edge

item: Life Orb
nature: Naughty / Naive
evs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The Dragon Dance set is one of Salamence's most dangerous, and is incredibly effective at sweeping towards the end of a match or breaking the mid-game wide open. Salamence is reasonably sturdy and sports a number of key resistances, including immunity to Ground-type attacks, so it should have no problem finding an opportunity to use Dragon Dance. STAB Outrage is extremely powerful and thus a fairly obvious choice; after a single Dragon Dance and with Life Orb, it is capable of at worst 2HKOing almost every Pokemon available in the OU tier, including the Steel-types that resist it. Earthquake complements Outrage well, covering most of the Steel-types such as Heatran and Metagross that resist Dragon; it also provides a good attacking option when Salamence isn't ready to use Outrage, such as during the beginning of a game. Fire Blast handles the very defensive Steel-types that Earthquake doesn't affect significantly, such as Skarmory and Forretress, and OHKOs Scizor; Stone Edge doesn't do nearly as much against Skarmory, but will OHKO the standard physically defensive Zapdos and offensive Gyarados (taking into account Intimidate) guaranteed after a Dragon Dance.</p>

<p>The nature and EVs given are for use with Fire Blast. The small Special Attack investment allows Salamence, with its respectable base 110 Special Attack, to always OHKO a full health maximum HP, minimum Special Defense Impish Skarmory. If one elects to use Stone Edge, a 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread with Adamant or Jolly nature will suffice. The choice between the Attack-boosting and the Speed-boosting nature depends partially on personal preference. The Attack-boosting nature is recommended if the set contains Stone Edge so Salamence can OHKO physically defensive Zapdos after a Dragon Dance, but the Speed-boosting nature often proves helpful with Fire Blast. While it may seem that Salamence would have more than enough Speed to sweep effectively after a Dragon Dance, a Speed-boosting nature prevents the possibility that Pokemon like Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, Timid Choice Scarf Roserade, and Jolly Choice Scarf Lucario might stand in its way. Additionally, a Speed-boosting nature ensures that Salamence ties with Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, and even other Salamence at worst.</p>

<p>Life Orb is the preferred item because its 30% power boost offers Salamence the opportunity to OHKO many Pokemon it otherwise wouldn't be able to, such as Zapdos and Gyarados. However, it offers no defensive properties, and even detracts from Salamence's HP every time it attacks; as such, Yache Berry and Lum Berry are options for more conservative players. Yache Berry will let Salamence survive most unSTABed Ice attacks, but unlike its Swords Dancing Dragon counterpart Garchomp, Salamence has Dragon Dance, whose Speed-boosting effect lessens the danger from faster Pokemon with Ice attacks; however, Yache Berry is still helpful against Ice Shard users like Mamoswine, bulky Water-types that won't be OHKOed by Outrage, and extremely fast Pokemon that will outrun Salamence even after a Dragon Dance. Lum Berry is another useful defensive item that will heal Salamence if it inadvertently is paralyzed, burned, or put to sleep.</p>


[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Hydro Pump
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence boasts extraordinary offensive prowess on both ends of the attacking spectrum but Speed that sometimes falls short of what is necessary, so a mixed Choice Scarf set is natural. Such a Salamence is well-suited for sweeping late-game, when most opposing Pokemon are weakened; Outrage is perfectly tailored for cleaning up, and Earthquake and Fire Blast ensure that no Pokemon is capable of resisting Salamence's attacks. Hydro Pump rounds out this set nicely considering it easily 2HKOs Hippowdon, Donphan, and Gliscor, Pokemon that would otherwise give this set problems.</p>

<p>Fortuitously, maximizing Salamence's Attack gives it just enough power to 2HKO all Vaporeon after integrating Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. The 176 Speed EVs result in 280 actual Speed, outrunning all base 90 Speed Pokemon not possessing a Speed-boosting nature, and Timid Heatran along the way. The remainder is invested in Special Attack to provide a boost to Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, though it doesn't convert any significant 3HKOs into 2HKOs or 2HKOs into OHKOs.</p>

[SET]
name: Specially Bulky
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Dance
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 152 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD / 92 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence's spectacular offenses often mask its more than decent defensive abilities, which this specially bulky set attempts to take advantage of. As this is a more defensive set than the previous ones, and because this set pivots on being able to Roost after a single attack, Dragon Claw outright replaces Outrage here. Earthquake remains a useful complement to the STAB Dragon attack. Dragon Dance and Roost feed into the fact that this set is not entirely defensive, but rather takes advantage of some unexpected defensive power to score unusually placed boosts and eventually sweep while Roost maintains Salamence's health.</p>

<p>The EVs ensure that this Salamence will survive an unSTABed Hidden Power Ice from 359 Special Attack, such as from Timid Choice Scarf Gengar, or Ice Beam from 266 Special Attack with at least 10% health left, enough to launch a reprisal and not faint through Life Orb's recoil. As most Water-types don't possess that much Special Attack, Salamence can often beat them with a combination of Roost, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw. 92 Speed EVs returns 259, sufficient to outrun Timid Shaymin-S and Modest Choice Scarf Heatran after a single Dragon Dance, effectively putting the latter into a checkmate position. Modest Heatran is incapable of outrunning this Salamence and thus would be OHKOed by Earthquake, but Timid Heatran's maximum Special Attack is 359 would not be able to deal more than 90% to Salamence. 259 Speed is also enough to outrun Jolly Weavile after a Dragon Dance, but it is recommended to check for Ice Shard before attacking it.</p>

<p>An alternative spread for this set, to make it fully special defensive, is to use a Careful nature with Leftovers and an EV spread of 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe. Leftovers' health recovery gives this Salamence much more surviviability, at least nullifying the detrimental effects of possible sandstorm or hail, letting this Salamence switch in more often.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically Bulky
move 1: Dragon Claw / Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Dance
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although this set's moves are identical to those of the Specially Bulky set, the EV spread causes it to be played very differently. Salamence is surprisingly durable on the physical end, augmented by Intimidate's Attack-reducing effect. The attacks serve the same purpose as those in the previous set, though Outrage becomes an option again since the ability to Roost immediately after a single attack is no longer critical. The EVs ensure that after Intimidate, a Choice Scarf Heracross does no more than 46% with Stone Edge, guaranteeing Salamence's survival even with a critical hit; Lucario's Life Orb and Swords Dance boosted Extremespeed will also never 2HKO. The EVs also attain 280 Speed, which is important to outrun Adamant Lucario so Salamence won't be OHKOed by Ice Punch; on the way, 280 Speed also outruns Timid Choice Scarf Heatran, Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross, and Shaymin-S after a Dragon Dance. Unfortunately, this Salamence is incapable of dealing with Scizor, one of the greatest physical threats around, unless it uses Flamethrower or Fire Blast, forcing it to split its EVs.</p>

<p>This set can be made more offensive with an Adamant nature and Life Orb, though that significantly cuts down on its durability.</p>

[SET]
name: MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Roost / Crunch
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Salamence's powerful mixed set is capable of cracking stall wide open, as it is capable of hitting any Pokemon in the entire game very hard. Draco Meteor's 140 base power provides a wealth of immediate strength and Fire Blast hits Steel-types like Jirachi, Skarmory, and Metagross. Flamethrower is a more reliable but significantly less powerful option in Fire Blast's stead; usually, the power drop isn't worth the raised accuracy Brick Break strikes most Pokemon that can take the special attacks potently, Pokemon like Blissey, Empoleon, and Heatran, 2HKOing all three with Stealth Rock down, and OHKOs Tyranitar. Roost is the more commonly used option in the fourth slot, canceling out Life Orb's recoil to an extent and helping against other residual damage; however, Crunch is available to hit Cresselia and Dusknoir after they suffer a Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>Rash nature and Life Orb ensure that MixMence hits as hard as possible; it needs the boosts to pick up the 2HKOs and OHKOs that it absolutely needs to get. 176 Speed EVs returns 280, like the EV spread of many other Salamence sets, outrunning Adamant Lucario. One can, however, experiment with different Attack and Special Attack weightings, depending on one's team and personal experience or preference.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Hydro Pump / Hidden Power Ground
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Choice Specs Salamence's decrease in usage comes a rise in the surprise factor. Choice Specs boosted Draco Meteor is the most powerful single attack that Salamence can use in one turn without prior setup. While it is normally unwise to use two offensive attacks of the same type in a single moveset, there are some exceptions, such as here; Dragon Pulse is best used for late-game sweeping, whereas Draco Meteor makes an enormous impact earlier. Flamethrower complements the Dragon-type attacks well, and Hydro Pump picks off the rest, including Pokemon like Heatran, Bastiodon, and Probopass. Hidden Power Ground is a viable option over Hydro Pump given its ability to guarantee an OHKO on Heatran regardless of its HP investment and its super effectiveness against Empoleon. It's often unwise to have a Pokemon locked into a Ground-type attack, though, since many of the most dangerous threats in the game, including Gengar, Gyarados, and Salamence itself are immune to the type.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Grass and Hidden Power Electric are not suggested because they are overly limited, and because of the very mechanics of Choiced Pokemon. Choiced Pokemon rely completely on prediction, and even if the Hidden Power manages to mutilate its intended target, it will likely encounter something that easily sets up against it the next turn. Additionally, Gyarados and Swampert are already 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse and nearly OHKOed by Draco Meteor, precluding the possibility of their switching in; by using a Dragon attack, one forces the opponent's hand, since most non-Steel Pokemon are also badly hurt by it.</p>

<p>Choice Specs Salamence's usage has dropped dramatically from levels during the primordial metagame because it has absolutely no way of bypassing Blissey.</p>

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Roost
move 2: Wish / Toxic
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Flamethrower
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

 

[Caelum]

I know you aren't done with this Great Sage but I think it would be really great to include a Damage Calculations section for the DD Salamence set (much like it is in the SD Luke set). In my write up of this I included things like Outrage against max / max Cresselia, Hippowdon, Suicune. EQ vs. max / max Registeel. To demonstrate how LO Salamence can basically 2HKO everything in the game.

Edit: Also, Lum Berry is an excellent option on physically bulky Salamence, particularly if you opt for Outrage.

 

[highstakespkmn]

just a small correction, in the choice band set, take off the special attack EV's if the reason was to ohko Skarm when orbbed becuase it has no orb

 

[Aldaron]

O man you have got to be joking man, I CLEARLY stated I wanted this (even going so far as to name the sets I was going to update).

How lame. Anyway, your EVs and moves are all non optimal for like half these sets.

For example, specially bulky Salamence has completely changed, physically bulky should NEVER run outrage, Earthquake / Brick Break are NOT optimal choices for the Choice Band set, etc. etc. et-freaking-c.

Why did you ignore the IS topic?

=/

 

[chenman333]

May I suggest another Mixed Salamence set?

Salamence @ Life Orb
80 Atk/252 SpA/176 Speed
Rash
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

Now that Salamence gets Outrage, the Draco Meteor+Outrage combo will KO a lot of threats, including blissey (but not the 252/252 bold versions w/o resid damage), swampert, Suicune I vaguely remember, etc. Earthquake takes the place of Brick Break against what you mentioned for, hitting them harder. Only T-Tar isn't hit has hard, and Draco Meteor+Earthquake will kill it anyway. Can really open up the game, or sweep later with the sheer power of STAB Outrage. The other set is okay, but the problem is that if you Draco Meteor as Blissey switches in, there is no way for you to kill it with Brick Break as it softboil stalls you.

 

[highstakespkmn]

I think you can just stick Outrage as an option over Brick Break on the mix set, and that'd fix it, and yes that set does work.

2 other sets (note: optimal EV/nature need to be figured out):

[SET]
name: Bluffmence 1
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Dragon Dance
Outrage
Nature: Rash/Mild
EV's: 156 Attack/136 Speed/216 Sp Att

In my opinion, could be the hardest Mence set to stop. A quick look at this set and it becomes apparent that Heatran has its way with it, hell you're giving it something like Dragon Dance and even other steels such as Metagross or Magnezone can stop it after one Dragon Dance. It really doesn't seem hard at all to counter from your perspective, but since Mence is such a diverse Pokemon, your opponent often will not figure out what you are up to until it's too late. The ideal way to use it is to bluff a Mixmence early game, then unleash a Dragon Dance fueled Outrage sweep late game. The crazy thing is that Draco Meteor and a fire move alone can deal with almost every Pokemon in the game, save Blissey, Heatran, Empoleon and Cresselia, and all of them can potentially be battered and then killed with Outrage when the time is right.

[SET]
name: Bluffmence 2
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Dragon Dance
Outrage
item: Dragon Fang
nature: Rash
EV's: 156 Attack/136 Speed/216 Sp Att

It's the same basic set as Bluffmence 1 with the same coverage, but it's use is significantly different enough that it's worth mentioning by itself. When you use a Draco Meteor or a fire move and it hits weaker than a Specsmence would, it looks like Scarfmence, and that's exactly what you want your opponent to think. The other two main differences is that it does not hit quite as hard as the Life Orb variant, but the 2 most important moves are only ~7.7% weaker, and also unlike the Life Orb variant, it can hold its own as a Lucario, Heracross, or Scizor switchin with Stealth Rock up and even a potential Sandstorm, and still attempt a sweep. The Life Orb set has trouble because with no recovery and Life Orb, once it picks up enough residual damage and not very effective hits, it becomes not only low enough in health where it can actually suicide with Orb, but also be well within the kill range of a Lucario's Extremespeed or a Scizor or Metagross's Bullet Punch whereas this variant would not be.

 

[Great Sage]

O man you have got to be joking man, I CLEARLY stated I wanted this (even going so far as to name the sets I was going to update).

How lame. Anyway, your EVs and moves are all non optimal for like half these sets.

For example, specially bulky Salamence has completely changed, physically bulky should NEVER run outrage, Earthquake / Brick Break are NOT optimal choices for the Choice Band set, etc. etc. et-freaking-c.

Why did you ignore the IS topic?

=/

Obviously I'm going to be revising this and taking suggestions, and I clearly said in the thread that reservations couldn't be made at that time. (and tbh I didn't see that)

 

[maddog]

Just one quick thing, on the Choice Band set, Fire Fang is a better option than Fire Blast, because it hits so hard that Fire Blast is just not that great of an option (much like having EQ on the Choice Specs set). Plus you get to keep your nature Adamant or Jolly, which is better in the long run. Although I would definetely have your spread as an option.

 

[Aldaron]

Yea completely disagreeing with you there maddog.

Fire Blast can 2hko Skarm, while Fire Fang doesn't. Fire Blast can ohko Forry, while Fire Fang will not.

Also, I have never understood why Earthquake is not the preferred choice over HP Ground on Choice Specs Salamence.

If you run Mild on SpecsMence and 8 attack EVs with Earthquake, you can ohko Heatran, 2hko empoleon, and 2hko Tentacruel, all of which, on their specially defensive sets, are not always ohkoed, 2hkoed or 2hkoed by HP Ground.

I know that in terms of "Raw averages" that HP Ground "does more" (350 * 1.5 * 70 > 308 * 100), but the things you are hitting for SE damage take much more from the physical side than the special side.

 

[RaikouLover]

That Mixmence is obsolete IMO. It's outclassed by Dragonite now...

[SET]
name: MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Dragon Dance
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

---------
There ya go, that shit rapes. And Dragon Dance IS an option in the final slot to incorporate "bluffmence" which is extremely effective as gimmicky as it seems. I switched the nature to Naive, since Lucarios are running Jolly / Timid now, and outspeeding Roserade and Porygon-Z is a good idea as well, as the former can sleep you and the latter can Ice Beam you to death. Flamethrower should be the first option IMO since they both 2HKO Bronzong and OHKO Skarmory and Forretress. And it would suck to miss on a 20% Gliscor with Draco Meteor or Fire Blast but that is just a personal preference I guess...

 

[Bourbon]

If one elects to use Stone Edge, a 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread with Adamant or Jolly nature will suffice.

I also don't really like the unspecialized EVs... I mean, why does DDmence need 299 speed, or, stranger yet, a boosting speed nature? It's just kind of lazy to me. 285 or 280 should be more than enough. The extra HP that you receive in exchange allows Salamence to switch in easier, and when you've got a neat set of resistances like Salamence has, you should take advantage of them whenever possible.

I also don't like how there is Outrage on Bulkymence. Being forced into an attack isn't particularly effective when you could be using Earthquake on those steels, Roosting off damage, or even boosting further. Bulkymence's greatest strength isn't brute strength, it is good because it can kill it's opponents faster than they can kill it, thanks to Roost, and it's ability to boost it's offensive power.

Also don't forget that it's a great defensive pokemon. And losing it to Scarftran, Mamoswine or Weavile because you had to attack something is a very bad idea, especially if it's your best answer for Lucario or something.

 

[highstakespkmn]

I dont quite understand giving Salamence enough speed to outrun Adamant Lucario because Lucario is going to be using Extremespeed anyway over the slightly more powerful Close Combat because it fears Salamence is faster... but I do like that EV spread and I'm currently seeing how wel it does, I was using more attack before, but special attack is really what it needs.

right now I've switched to 156 Attack/136 Speed/216 Sp Att with Dragon Fang to use it slightly more defensively and it still hits extremely hard.

 

[Poppin]

I dont quite understand giving Salamence enough speed to outrun Adamant Lucario because Lucario is going to be using Extremespeed anyway over the slightly more powerful Close Combat because it fears Salamence is faster...

Close Combat has 10 more base power than Extremespeed :/. Why would ANYONE use it on a Salamence? :s

Lucario has Ice Punch now which can basicly pick off a BulkyMence, outspeeding it is basicly needed.

Onto the "BluffMence" thing. It's actually a good idea, however, I like a Yache Berry way better as it can keep your opponent guessing so Salamence can get up a free Dragon Dance or, KO something running Ice Shard which is pretty cool :/.

 

[Bourbon]

Lucario learns Ice Punch now.

EDIT: beaten :/

 

[RaikouLover]

Personally, I think outspeeding Jolly Lucario is a must now since they all do carry Ice Punch and more are becoming Jolly hoping that Gliscor won't catch on. The cocky ones WILL try to Ice Punch you.

 

[highstakespkmn]

I think if you are using Luke with Ice Punch you almost have to go Jolly in order to outspeed Adamant Mence cause that's kind of what you're using it for anyway, so I dont think it should make 279 speed any more important to surpass.

 

[RaikouLover]

Uh... so it doesn't kill you?

 

[highstakespkmn]

but all the smarter Ice Punch Lucarios will be Jolly, so even at 280, it is going to kill you.

PS: I like the idea of Yache on set 2, its biggest negative is that it would take away much of its early game value, but I guess it could potentially be made up later in the game.

 

[cim]

People are suggesting 176 +nature for that.

Hydro Pump sucks on Specs Salamence. It's not 100% accurate, is only for Heatran, and doesn't always OHKO at that. It does nothing to stop the other two things that take DM / FB well (Tentacruel and Empoleon). It's horrible. Earthquake or Hidden Power Ground is always better, even with the whole "choice locked ground move byahh" stuff. I think Aldaron made a great case for Earthquake.

tl;dr: Hydro Pump sucks use Earthquake.

 

[RaikouLover]

I suggested that a week ago and they locked the thread...

 

[highstakespkmn]

being locked on earthquake is terrible though. that alone makes it at least an option to put hydro pump over it. even against something like DDmence/gyarados, Hydro Pump can sometimes do enough damage to desperately stop it from sweeping. meanwhile, EQ and HP ground are doing nothing.

 

[RaikouLover]

What? Earthquake and HP Ground are the same type. Hydro Pump is inaccurate for one, no STAB for two, and doesn't help you against Empoleon. Between Fire / Dragon / Ground you hit everything neutral. Water does the same, but Ground scores super effective on that wierd Penguin.

 

[highstakespkmn]

i'm saying hydro pump is the only option that doesnt let the other team set up in your face. that can be extremely helpful depending on the kind of team you're running.

 

[Scofield]

What will set up against earthquake that can't set up against hydro pump? Salamence and gyarados?

And I'm really interested in seeing Aldaron's special mence (he basically created that set iirc) and bandmence (which I've been running lately.) No earthquake or brick break you say? Aqua tail instead perhaps? Either way, color me intrigued. And I remember Aldaron saying he was looking forward to writing the salamence article and how great it was going to be on shoddy. =/

 

[highstakespkmn]

well the only other option would be a fire move, which is giving up Heatran and some power on Metagross, Magnezone, and Empoleon for Bronzong, Forretress, Skarm, and Scizor. the problem with that set though is you are basically thinking Outrage sweep or nothing which makes it very unversatile while not really having much value as a tank either because you have to commit yourself to outrage. you could use dragon claw, but then thats going back to more of a bulky idea and life orb wouldnt be very preferred.

EDIT: Look at that, there's TWO SEPARATE sets with DD + Roost, how could you have missed them?

Fire Fang or Blast should be mentioned as options though IMO.