Salamence (Full Revamp)

[Scofield]

The one posted has hasty since it used fire blast for skarm/fort. If you want to use fire fang for zong of course jolly would be preferred, that's just common sense. And brick break for breaking screens isn't as viable as it used to be now that deoxys-s is uber. Also, with a CB, earthquake ohkos ttar all the same, and ttar doesn't handle a cb outrage that well either.

 

[Colonel M]

Something that pondered in my mind... should we add a DDance table like I did in the Gyarados revamp? I'm pretty sure people would like to know good benchmarks what to outpace after a Dragon Dance. I can do the table specifically for Salamence if you want GS.

 

[StrikeJP]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post/ask this but... is the counter section going to be updated too?

The current one is horribly outdated and I'm having a hell of time trying to figure out something that could counter it decently well. I'd be interested to hear what some of you guys think of as counters for this beast.

 

[RaikouLover]

Bronzong is the #1 Salamence counter. It can switch in and pose a threat. Avalanche Gyarados does well too. Hell, anything with Ice Beam than can take a hit :-D.

 

[Scofield]

Doesn't zong get destroyed by fire attacks? Even CBoutrage does ~46% to zong. Gyarados is ohkoed by CBoutrage as well. I honestly think that salamence is now officially one of the few pokemon who have no true counters, and the only one who doesn't rely on sleep/status to achieve that title.

 

[StrikeJP]

Bronzong is the #1 Salamence counter. It can switch in and pose a threat. Avalanche Gyarados does well too. Hell, anything with Ice Beam than can take a hit :-D.

I'm going to have to disagree, since I've been using Bronzong as it's counter up to this point (and it only works on occasion).

Here's my reasoning: Bronzong is usually a lead Pokemon, which means the opponnent knows you have that as a potential counter. If the opponent is a smart player he'll toss out a Fire Blast. A Life Orb Fire Blast from the usual 24 EV in Special Attack does about 55.33% - 65.09% to a 252HP/92SpDef Sassy Bronzong, a 2HKO.

Now let's assume you throw out a bulky water type when expecting the fire blast. We'll use BulkyGyara (since you brought him up). The usual bulkyGyara with 156HP/100Def and Intimidate in effect will take 51.62% - 60.81% from a 252Att Adamant Life Orb Outrage. This Gyarados has already been hit by Fire Blast (we'll say it does about 10%, too lazy to check) and if you're really unlucky, another 25% from Stealth Rock. Thats about 86-95% damage taken trying to counter it, which only gives you about 5-15% room for error (hoping that you don't need Gyarados to counter any other Pokemon). Not great odds.

Now for the sake of argument I'll look at two more scenarios. Let's assume you outpredict the Salamence and come in on a Dragon Dance with Bronzong (252HP/80Def). If he decides to use Outrage on you, you'll take 52.66% - 61.83%. A 2HKO. While in return with Gyro Ball from the usual 86Att Ev's, Salamence will take 87.92% - 103.63%. This is a possible OHKO (it is if you have Stealth Rock up). If you're not lucky and you dont score at least 97% hit, you lose yet again. Not exactly an ideal counter IMO.

One last example, I'll use Suicine (I would consider arguably the Bulkiest of the Bulky Waters). We'll assume Suicine (252HP/252Def and Bold) comes in on a Dragon Dance. It will take 70.30% - 82.92% from Outrage. Gives you only about 18-30% room for error, not too bad, but not great. Now if suicine comes in on an Outrage it will take 47.28% - 55.45%. A highly possible 2HKO (definite 2HKO with Stealth Rock).

In my examples the only thing I see beating Salamence is amazing prediction. Just one wrong prediction and the only thing left is to revenge kill (sounds like a certain situation with another Dragon).

Maybe I'm way off base and I actually hope I am (someone please prove me wrong)...but Salamence seems almost impossible to take down with at least one Pokemon.

 

[RaikouLover]

First of all, I don't lead with Bronzong for that reason alone. It is such a great switch in later for so many threats. I've been using Choice Band Bronzong, which switches in on Salamence, takes a hit and KOs with Gyro Ball easily... If really are that scared of mence, just use Explosion.

Bulky RestTalk Gyarados is another good counter. Come in on Dragon Dance, intimidate it, you live through the Outrage and OHKO with Avalanche. What's the problem? You have to get creative to counter it, but it isn't uncounterable at all. It doesn't help that 80% of Salamences are those predictable ass Dragon Dancers. I haven't had a problem with Salamence yet...

Oh, and what happened to Cresselia? Thunderwave + Ice Beam... pst...

 

[Scofield]

Again, you're forgetting all about CBmence ._.

Rips through cress, cune, and gyara.

 

[StrikeJP]

First of all, I don't lead with Bronzong for that reason alone. It is such a great switch in later for so many threats. I've been using Choice Band Bronzong, which switches in on Salamence, takes a hit and KOs with Gyro Ball easily... If really are that scared of mence, just use Explosion.

Bulky RestTalk Gyarados is another good counter. Come in on Dragon Dance, intimidate it, you live through the Outrage and OHKO with Avalanche. What's the problem? You have to get creative to counter it, but it isn't uncounterable at all. It doesn't help that 80% of Salamences are those predictable ass Dragon Dancers. I haven't had a problem with Salamence yet...

Oh, and what happened to Cresselia? Thunderwave + Ice Beam... pst...

I already explained a situation in which Bronzong comes in on a Dragon Dance. Yes, it can counter Salamence but only if you score at least a 97% hit. Of course a Choice Band Gyro Ball will OHKO, but that seems a little bit too specialized of a counter to me. And Explosion is not a counter... it's a trade off.

I also explained BulkyGyara. If you don't come in on anything but a Dragon Dance, Gyarados is dead.

Cresselia I'm sure is the same as Gyarados, she has to come in on a Dragon Dance, otherwise I'm sure is 2HKO'd by Outrage. I'll do some calculations on this later once I get some more opinions.

Again, you're forgetting all about CBmence ._.

Rips through cress, cune, and gyara.

Yes, I've been focusing on Life Orb Salamence, but this is a good point too. If you mispredict Life Orb for Choice Band, you get screwed yet again.

My whole point is that nothing can switch in safely barring some amazing prediction.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, you just have to know the set, which is Salamence's biggest advantage. I personally haven't had trouble countering it. And CB Bronzong wasn't really specialized for Salamence, its for Tricking shit onto Blissey, Skarm, etc. Counter Salamence was just a nice bonus. But Bronzong in general has always done the trick for me. I guess you have to have the mentalilty that you won't "counter" it so stop trying. I just htink "I can't let Salamence get by Bronzong by any means necessary." That seals the deal.

 

[Syberia]

You cannot "counter" Salamence, you just have to "kill" it. I find that after SR, sandstorm, and LO recoil, one neutral attack from pretty much any scarfed pokemon can take it out.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah, we need to stop "countering" things...the metagame is making counters hard to come by.

 

[cim]

StrikeJP, you may want to see my SQSA post on the topic.

Tangerine's post on the counter mentality is also very relevant here, if the thread still exists.

It seems clear that you're trying to "trick" (maybe that's not the right word) people into the "has no counters it must be Uber" mentality. However, having no counters is usually irrelevant to tiering. Several Pokémon have absolutely no counters (Tyranitar, Togekiss, Heatran, even Heracross if you want to get technical), so the "nothing can switch in on absolutely every move on every salamence" is a loss on that point.

Not to mention something few counter-mentality people get: not every Pokémon can run every move in its movepool at the same time, nor can every Pokémon use every attack at the same time. This is why Heatran @ Scarf is a valid response to Skymin, or why Hariyama can switch into Tyranitar, or why Gliscor can counter Heracross, or why Zapdos can respond to Togekiss.

So I'd really you rater save your "no counters" arguments for some other place. Here we are working on writing a Salamence article, not discussing perfect textbook counters to Pokémon (having a textbook counter to every Pokémon is a futile goal).

Also, when you ask for a counter and someone gives one, you can't dismiss it as "too specialized". It may be, but that doesn't make it not a counter by the silly textbook definition.

Also, why do you assume that there are always favorable conditions for Salamence (Sandstorm, SR) and none from the defending side? To allow favorable conditions for mence (i.e. no SR up) is simply poor play, and you can't counter that. Bronzong beats pretty much any DDmence without a Fire Attack. (You also forgot LO but w/e)

 

[StrikeJP]

I've read Tangerine's post on counter mentality. I don't remember it word for word and I will agree that it was a good post. But if I remember correctly not everyone exactly 100% agreed with that mentality. Counters I don't believe to be a thing of the past, even though they are more and more difficult to produce these days.

I'm not trying to "trick" anyone. As a matter of fact I was hoping people would prove me wrong because I was just trying to figure out how to take out the damn thing. And I would argue that the Pokemon you have listed in comparison to Salamence easily have some sure fire counters (you even say so in your next paragraph).

I never had the counter mentality that it is running every move in the game. As a matter of fact, every example I used was from the standard Life Orb DD Salamence.

I will save my argument for another day. Because I seem to be attacked rather than hearing what people think are good counters (but as I said before, this is perhaps not the place to post this and seems it's not).

You are right. I dismissed Choice Band Gyro Ball too quickly. It was a 100% fool proof counter. Although I find it a bit scary that combo is the only thing that can be a sure fire switch in. But I owe RaikouLover an appology, so I'm sorry for tossing your suggestion asside (heat of the moment I guess, ha).

That is simply not true that I focused on only favorable conditions for Salamence. I said many times "OHKO with stealh rock up" "2HKO with stealth rock up." I never even brought up Sandstorm for either side. Perhaps in my writing I did make it appear more favorable to Salamence...well I was trying to prove a point. And um...I didn't forget Life Orb...?

I guess I'll drop this topic now because it will turn into a circular argument. I'll just assume for now that BulkyWater + Bronzong + Great Prediction = Salamence Counter.

 

[cim]

No, my point about favorable conditions is that you never factored in SR damage for the counters (Gyro Ball Zong without a CB)

You forgot Life Orb's recoil.

You also assumed things like Cresselia not coming in on a DD, but waiting a turn and such to come in...

But yeah whatever.

Anyhow, uh... yeah. Salamence. Can we just put earthquake on the specs set already i see no reason not to and plenty of reasons to use it.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Salamence can be countered, but in the same vein as things like Lucario its usually a matter of seeing its moveset first. Any Salamence set is beatable, its just that first switch-in that gives people the most trouble. Tangerine's post about not having to counter things is right, but for very misleading reasons. Even though you don't HAVE to counter every threat, you do need SOMETHING to switch in and stop it from DDing if it comes in on your Breloom. "Counters" has been a key part of every analysis since RBY and to this day it is a fundamental part of Pokemon, whether it be by directly going to Bronzong to take an Outrage or by sacing your Breloom to get Mamoswine in for free to Ice Shard, you are still countering it. The idea of sacrifice being an effective way of countering things is very new to d/p. I said that Tangerine's post was misleading because the idea of countering is still extremely beneficial, he is just advocating the use of more up-to-date-with-d/p methods of countering for newer players. It was a guide, not a gospel (like some people in this thread are assuming).

Being SR and SS weak, combined with the fact that it needs Life Orb to do any significant damage even after Dragon Dance make Salamence much easier to take down. Since it needs Life Orb or a Choice item to be a threat, it doesn't have the staying power that made Garchomp such a threat for the entire match, since Garchomp could use SD over DD and have enough attack to actually hurt things AND be able to stick around with Yache and no LO recoil. One speed boost isn't enough to sweep anymore, Dragon Dance just doesn't cut it in today's metagame.

/rant

About EQ on the specs set: I was pretty sure that HP Ground outdamages EQ, but if this is wrong then I would definitely support its addition.

 

[Caelum]

Why are we debating this EQ vs. HP ground issue when we have damage calculators ?_?

To answer J7r.

You can make it EQ out damage HP Ground, but it requires a good amount of EV investment. At least more then I'd be willing to sacrifice. Basically, this comes down to how much do you care about Calm Empoleon / Tentacruel ? I personally don't think it matters as much with Tentacruel since Draco Meteor will do more against it than HP Ground and Dragon Pulse only has 5 less base power than HP Ground against Tentacruel. I assumed, if you used EQ, you used a neutral Attack nature and 8 Attack EVs. I personally don't think it's worth dropping your Defense / Special Defense for EQ based on these damage outputs, but to each their own. Maybe (and that's a big maybe) if Empoleon or Tentacruel had a recovery move I'd use EQ but I just don't think it's worth it.

Heatran:
525 SpA HP Ground vs. 324 HP / 248 SpD Heatran: 132% - 155%
308 Atk Earthquake vs. 324 HP / 248 Def Heatran: 111% - 130%
525 SpA HP Ground vs. 386 HP / 263 SpD Heatran: 104% - 123%
308 Atk Earthquake vs. 386 HP / 272 Def Heatran: 84% - 100%

Empoleon:
525 SpA HP Ground vs. 310 HP / 238 SpD Empoleon: 71% - 84%
308 Atk Earthquake vs. 310 HP / 212 Def Empoleon: 67% - 80%
525 SpA HP Ground vs. 372 HP / 331 SpD Empoleon: 43% - 51%
308 Atk Earthquake vs. 372 HP / 212 Def Empoleon: 56% - 66%

Tentacruel:
525 SpA HP Ground vs. 302 HP / 276 SpD Tentacruel: 63% - 74%
308 Atk Earthquake vs. 302 HP / 166 Def Tentacruel: 88% - 103%
525 SpA HP Ground vs. 364 HP / 352 SpD Tentacruel: 41% - 48%
308 Atk Earthquake vs. 364 HP / 166 Def Tentacruel: 73% -86%

525 SpA Draco Meteor vs. 302 HP / 276 SpD Tentacruel: 94% - 111%
525 SpA Draco Meteor vs. 364 HP / 352 SpD Tentacruel: 61% - 72%

 

[cim]

is that mild and 8 evs? in which case its a very clear case that Earthquake is better. It 2HKOs 252 HP Empoleon, while HP Ground won't 2hko 252/252 SpD Empoleon. If you don't 2HKO Empoleon, it will OHKO you with Ice Beam

It 2HKOs the otherwise not-2hkoed-by-anything special defensive tentacruel, which OHKOs with Ice Beam.

It still gets a OHKO on Heatran.

Seems clearly better.

 

[umbarsc]

Empoleon is so uncommon that it's hardly worth accounting for.

On Tentacruel, I'd argue that it's irrelevant. Tentacruel is 2HKOed by Draco Meteor anyways, so it's not a huge deal because it can only come in on Salamence once. Salamence will usually be opening with Draco Meteor anyways, and if Tentacruel switches in on that, its next switch-in will leave it dead to Draco Meteor, or two hits from Dragon Pulse/HP Ground. This means Salamence has switched in an taken Stealth Rocks damage twice. If Salamence isn't opening with Earthquake, then Tentacruel will get a guaranteed switch-in the first time, then next time can be nailed on the predicted switch with Earthquake. However, this means Salamence still has taken Stealth Rocks damage twice. Not to mention that most opponents will either set up a lot easier or the same on -2 Draco Meteor than they would on Earthquake.

On the other hand, Mild takes away from its ability to switch in on Heatran and Shaymin-S.

 

[Slobroking]

Why would you lower 1 defense stat for a move you're barely going to use?

 

[tennisace]

Why would you lower 1 defense stat for a move you're barely going to use?

Personally, I use Specsmence for a mid-game wallbreaker. As such, I have never used Dragon Pulse any time it was on the set. Earthquake would probably get some use from me, since it seems quite useful.

 

[cim]

The move that would be dropped is Hydro Pump, a move that is 80% accurate and doesn't always OHKO Heatran, its only target.

umbarsc: mild lowers defense, not special defense if i recall correctly

If there are any specific 3HKOs turned into 2HKOs worth noting it'd be great to mention them.

But yeah can we all agree hydro pump at least sucks balls and HP Ground / Earthquake should be used?

 

[CWW]

It's probably too farfetched, but how about Curselix as a semi-counter? Possibly with an Occa Berry. Some quick calculations:

256 Fire Blast vs. 252/252 +SpD Steelix: 50% - 58%*
256 + LO Fire Blast vs. 252/252 +SpD Steelix: 64% - 76%*
525 Flamethrower vs. 252/252 +SpD Steelix: 80% - 94%*
525 Draco Meteor vs. 252/252 +SpD Steelix: 44% - 52%
525 HP Ground vs. 252/252 +SpD Steelix: 60% - 70%
607 + LO Outrage vs. 252/0 +SpD Steelix: 33% - 38%
607 + LO Earthquake vs. 252/0 +SpD Steelix: 74% - 87%
405 + LO Earthquake vs. 252/0 +SpD Steelix: 49% - 58%
*with Occa Berry divide by half.

Min Atk Ice Fang does 60% - 71% to 4/0 Salamence which has a good shot to OHKO with Stealth Rock and LO recoil. +1 Ice Fang does 90% - 106% which is a guaranteed OHKO with SR or LO damage.

Anything other than LO Fire Blast/EQ, Specs'd Flamethrower/HP Ground or CB EQ and Salamence loses, but who uses EQ as their first move anyway?

 

[cim]

It's a good response to Mence considering its the best outrage switch in in the game. Worth a mention..

 

[RaikouLover]

Earthquake and HP Ground are both usable, but Earthquake nets the same KOs and you really shouldn't be using that slot anyway. I would just prefer to use Earthquake because it is more accessible in-game.