np: USUM UU Stage 8.1 - Garden (Mega Venusaur banned)

[Ada]

ah, that reminds me. the new method of suspecting is indeed great, it follows the same pattern as olt (by far the best tourney), which helps ensure maximum activity. suspect ladders have always been flawed imo.

although, like others have mentioned, it is a bit too easily attainable right now. the best solution then, would be to raise the game limit i.e. min 50 games && min 80 gxe. raising the no. of games needed (gxe remain constant) would mean that players would have to prove themselves over a larger no. of games (and to get higher on the ladder).

however, this punishes the good players who remain consistent by having them play out more games (tedious). so, my proposed solution then, would be to have two sets of requirements: one standard requirement (80 gxe; 50 games) and one set of 'express' requirements with higher gxe demands but a lower game count (ex. 83 gxe, 40 games). this would reward the better/more consistent players (higher gxe) by achieving reqs quicker, whilst plebs like us the normal users can still participate once they've demonstrated enough skill.

thanks for reading.

 

[Nightingales]

I don’t have any strong opinion on Venu staying or leaving, since I haven’t played in a while and can’t judge for myself at this point, but I do feel like a lot of this seems a little hasty. Personally, I’d almost like to see the thing stay long enough to settle the meta, then see what things look like when we’ve adapted.

 

[pokemonisfun]

One thing about this suspect that I bet helped get this record number of voters is including the header in the UU ladder games with a link to this thread. I think we should definitely keep that header even if for whatever reason we go back to using suspect ladders, which right now I don't see any reason for.

 

[Accel]

So I've gotten reqs and have also been laddering past the required amount of games necessary to vote, which has provided me with additional exposure to Mega Venusaur and the trends it's forcing. I'm of the opinion that it's unhealthy for the tier, and not for the reasons you may think or assume based on previous pro-ban Mega Venusaur posts. Sure, one can make the argument that Mega Venusaur has the bulk to withstand and check many of the tier's premier offensive threats, great defensive typing and a hand ability, and all of the necessary weapons in its arsenal to combat its usual checks, therefore making it broken. However, I'm not of the opinion that Mega Venusaur is specifically broken due to its commanding traits, and this definitely should not be the sole or even the main point of focus when considering it unhealthy for the tier. I'm more concerned with the negatively influential trends it is forcing, its effects on the current playstyles, and general teambuilding tendencies regarding Mega Venusaur.

Before I continue, I'd also like to share my perspective on this current suspect test. Below you'll see a list of all of the Pokemon UU has suspected publicly since the start of SM's tiering:

Notice a trend here? With the exception of Mega Slowbro, all of the above Pokemon were suspected due to their overwhelming offensive capabilities. It's obvious to say that if most of these Pokemon had less of an offensive ceiling, then they wouldn't have been suspected in the first place. I've read certain posts that claim Mega Venusaur's offensive abilities are underwhelming and therefore it isn't ban-worthy, and this seems backwards since it's following the same logic that should be used to consider any Pokemon being suspected for being too great of an offensive threat. This leads up perfectly to the perspective I would like to offer: consider Mega Venusaur's suspect test differently as you would for most of our previously suspected Pokemon. Even someone who's new to the game will agree that offensive and defensive Pokemon shouldn't be compared by using the same metrics. True, Mega Venusaur has an above average offensive presence for a strictly definitive wall, but I believe it's false to consider this facet out of context and as one would usually consider it if an offensive threat was being suspected.

After following the arguments and viewpoints presented in earlier posts, I've noticed that certain people, all of whom I respect and admire, of the anti-ban camp are offering other flawed justifications for their reasonings. I'd like to address four of these posts and why I believe the viewpoints presented in the following posts are either unrealistic or arguably false. Please note that some of these posts may have been addressed already, but that I'd also like to offer my own perspective on the material that's being presented.

Venusaur on the other hand I believe the meta will adapt to and actually will have a positive effect on the revitalization of balance teams. While it does have scary natural bulk and a Toxic immunity, it will be forced to use it's limited Synthesis PP often from residual damage in the form of Scald burns, Hazards, Sand, and Volt Switch damage. The 3 attacks set is definitely a great all purpose tank with reasonable offensive potential unlike other similarly fat Pokemon, but it isn't going to force teams to run mandatory checks. Latias and Crobat (which was already getting better due to Amoonguss) will be reliable checks, and a multitude of offensive options like Mega Pidgeot, Kommo-o, Haxorus, and Nasty Plot Togekiss can force it out. Boosting sets other than Growth have been underwhelming for me and while they may win some matchups, will struggle with being stalled or offensively pressured too easily.

Mega Venusaur hasn't been in the tier for long, but an argument proposing that 'the meta will adapt to' Mega Venusaur is a prediction at best and shouldn't be a driving force behind an anti-ban argument. Hypotheticals are volatile, and there's no guarantee that Mega Venusaur will be adapted to. Remember the join Breloom and Buzzwole suspect test which ended in Breloom's unban? Some may have thought that it would've been adapted to, but Breloom ended up being suspected a second time and subsequently banned. This logic isn't sound and hasn't been reliably accurate in the past, so I wouldn't consider it highly at all. The next bit about Mega Venusaur 'having a positive effect on the revitalization of balance teams' is also something I'd like to refute. Strictly balanced teams have struggled over the past couple of months, and Mega Venusaur's introduction to the tier has not only improved balance, but has put it on steroids and has caused balance to become unusually great. The issue of its recovery is also not a huge deal, as this may lead some to believe that Mega Venusaur is the only member of its team up against a fully stacked opposing team. On some balanced teams, I have seen Mega Venusaur supported by Wish users, such as Sylveon, Alomomola, and even Umbreon, which doesn't force it to rely on Synthesis as much. Generally, the issues presented in this excerpt are either flimsily presented or are vastly undermined.

These arguments are insufficient to ban Venusaur because:
1) All S rank threats are going to be restricting as well as all metagame threats, Venusaur isn't actually nearly as restricting as other threats

Plenty of concepts restrain building; the most obvious example is that nearly all teams are required to use Stealth Rocks. However, relatively few people think SR should be banned. Thus, just because a concept is extremely restrictive (Stealth Rocks is 99% required), doesn't mean it is broken. Right now in UU, we have many constraints that are relatively uncontroversial: nearly every team has a Steel type or at least Fairy type for Latias, all but the most offensive teams have a Volt Switch immunity, all but the bulkiest teams have a fast Pokemon or priority to cover the plethora of threats in between base 70-108.

Would is be wrong to say you now have to add a Flying or Psychic type to the mix? I sincerely doubt this, Latias is already one of the top Pokemon independent of Venusaur. There are many Psychic and Flying Pokemon that can badly damage Venusaur.

Even if you found this problematic, I am very hesitant to say all teams need a Flying or Psychic type now. Defensively, Blissey counters the vast majority of Venusaur while offensively Kommo-o has only been gaining in viability even before Venusaur. Choice Banded and Specs moves almost invariably 2HKO or OHKO Venusaur, regardless if they are super effective while Pressure users like Suicune and Kyurem can fairly easily stall Venusaur out, even if they struggle switching in. Even Terrakion can survive a Giga Drain from max Special Attack Terrakon most of the time and KO with boosted Z Stone Edge.

In short, there are ways to kill Venusaur outside of Flying and Psychic Pokemon and even if there wasn't, the fact there are good Psychic and Flying Pokemon already like Latias, Metagross, and Pidgeot means Venusaur isn't too much of a constraint.

2) Venusaur isn't really versatile at all and actually can almost never get past many of its counters

The fact of the matter is, Venusaur's most reliable set is Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb + Hidden Power Fire + Synthesis with max Special Attack and some HP and speed. Venusaur hardly ever deviates from this because Grass + Poison by itself is a poor offensive typing, being walled most notably by Scizor but also nearly every other Steel. Yes Venusaur can run other sets, but they are overall worse than this set because they'll lack coverage.

A comparison to Latias is the best way to argue against this point. Latias truly is versatile and it actually can get past most of its counters - CM Psyshock beats Blissey while Z Thunder beats most steels for example. Even Reflect Type can beat Muk-Alolan. This is something that is truly versatile and threatening offensively because of it's superior speed tier. Can we honestly say that Mega Venusaur is versatile compared to this? Not only does Venusaur have to predict when Flying types and Latias come in, as Poison is a poor offensive type to spam, but it also has to hope for the 30% Poison chance. And still, this won't beat counters like Zen Headbutt Metagross.

Let's keep perspective guys, threats like Latias, Lucario, Kommo-o, and Celebi - those are versatile Pokemon. Venusaur just runs the same set the vast majority of the time, and when it deviates from that set, it gives up very important coverage.

3) You think Venusaur is brainless? Try Regenerator Amoonguss

I doubt Venusaur is a brainless Pokemon. It takes skill to use and predict when to Sludge Bomb on Empoleons for example, predicting a switch to a Latias or Flying type.

Here's an example of this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-781250027

On turn 5, I have to make a good prediction, if also nearly riskless, in order to get a free KO with Pidgeot after my opponent plays well early on and weakens my only Pidgeot counter, Empoleon. But I make a bad decision later, letting Primarina die on turn 9 instead of going to Latias and after losing Krookodile on turn 12, I'm in an iffy position. A game deciding turn happens on turn 15 - I have to predict with Venusaur either to Synthesis/Sludge Bomb if my opponent switches to CB Infernape or Hidden Power Fire if my opponent U-Turns. I predict wrong and end up losing because of it.

Exactly how was my position so brilliant because of Venusaur that I could end up "button clicking" for the win? This game had clear turns where predictions had to be made with Venusaur, and although good predictions were rewarded, lack of predictions punished me and helped contribute to my loss.

If Pokemon were banned because they were brainless, then we should be suspecting things like Volt-Turn cores and Regenerator cores, which in my opinion are clearly more brainless. If anything, the rise of Amoonguss which is bound to happen if Venusaur gets banned will contribute to some brainless strategy, since it's harder to punish Regenerator Pokemon for bad predictions (for example, Amoonguss can switch in on Primarina's Psychic and not be totally lost).
[/hide]
Venusaur is good for the metagame because:

Hide

1) It helps keep Manectric-Scizor cores in check

With the loss of Gliscor, which forced Manectric to choose between Hidden Power Ice and Grass, Manectric-Scizor cores would be stronger than ever if it wasn't for Venusaur which can counter both Pokemon and stay in on their Volt-Turn cycle. Personally, I find Venusaur a great balancing Pokemon that stops these threats from becoming too strong. Because this was the reasoning to keep Scizor in the tier - as it helps keep threats like Terrakion in check - I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to Venusaur as well

2) It gives balance a very strong tool

Many players, although certainly not all, have long believed balance to be the worst play styles while bulky offense being the strongest play style. Venusaur can easily help out balance teams by serving as a blanket check to threats that could badly annoy balance like Crawdaunt and Primarina. Meanwhile, it's not overbearing on either balance nor bulky offense because of the Mega limitations, some of it's best offensive partners would be things like the aforementioned Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Aggron on balance, but fortunately these potentially broken combinations cannot be used because Mega mechanics.

3) Mega Venusaur keeps bulky waters in check and even breaks through Alo-Quag-Bliss

There is no shortage of bulky waters in this tier so excuse me if I'm not crying out in sympathy for the water types - other factors like their good bulk and typing will mean that Venusaur or not, bulky waters are not about to leave our tier. Additionally, with Growth Synthesis sets, Venusaur can be an important tool in making Alo-Quag-Blissey cores evolve further into different stall archetypes. I doubt anyone really thinks that Growth set is broken though, because it gets walled by Steels.

I carefully considered the main contentions that were made to ban Venusaur. By far, the most persuasive argument is that Venusaur is too restricting for teambuilding because it has plenty of basis in truth - nobody can deny Venusaur puts building restraints in the metagame. But because the points were somewhat exaggerated and illogical- "if you lose the only members of your team able to hit it hard, you automatically lose", this is exaggerated because Venusaur can still be walled and illogical because it can be applied to any Pokemon - the arguments aren't really strong enough persuade me to ban Venusaur.

Pif has provided three arguments that are insufficient to ban Mega Venusuar and three others that propose it is good for the tier. I'll separate my responses for each of these six arguments so that my insight is easier to follow.

Arguments that are insufficient to ban Mega Venusaur:

--- All S rank threats are going to be restricting as well as all metagame threats, Venusaur isn't actually nearly as restricting as other threats

I've addressed the issue with treating offensive Pokemon in the same vein as defensive ones and why it's an inaccurate way to present an argument. Mega Venu definitely isn't as offensively restricting as the other S rank threats in Scizor and Latias, but it sure offers more defensive maneuverability (to the point where it's unhealthy) than these two and is arguably has the most sustainable longevity amongst the three.

--- Venusaur isn't really versatile at all and actually can almost never get past many of its counters

Mega Venusaur has only been with us a short while, so making any conclusions about its versatility is a rushed assumption at this point. As of now, the most popular set I've seen runs Synthesis, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and HP Fire. The coverage sure is versatile and above average, considering Mega Venusaur's above average offensive firepower for a defensively oriented wall. Most of its counters, the majority of which are Psychic or Flying-types, already have a harder time functioning due to the prevalance of Pursuit trapping and Stealth Rock. It's also important to note that Venusaur doesn't need to get past its counters for it to function properly. That's what teammates are for. While laddering, I played versus an obscene amount of Mega Venusaur, Empoleon, and Krookodile cores, all of which would obstruct my usual Mega Venusaur countermeasures. This reasoning in particular is a shallow one to support the anti-ban argument.

--- You think Venusaur is brainless? Try Regenerator Amoonguss

I'm not a fan of the 'Mega Venusaur is brainless' argument in general, but completely avoiding the suspect-worthy Pokemon to talk about Amoonguss to try and downplay Mega Venusaur's abilities seems to be quite the flawed argument. This is a particularly unproductive point to discuss or even address, as Mega Venusaur being brainless to use isn't a point that should be weighted heavily whether you're assuming a pro-ban or anti-ban stance.

Arguments that propose Mega Venusaur is good for the tier:

--- It helps keep Manectric-Scizor cores in check

With Gliscor gone, the tier has lost a blanket check to most voltturn cores. This doesn't mean that there's a specific need to plug Mega Venusaur into this role and to use this as a justification for allowing it in the tier, and there are plenty of other ways to discourage and counteract voltturn chains. Hazards, Ground-types, and general Mega Manectric and Scizor checks are only a few ways for teams to obstruct opposing voltturn based teams. Of course, Mega Manectric and Scizor aren't being suspected right now either, so it's not absolutely necessary for anyone to address the need for a check to the Mega Manectric-Scizor core. If anything, both Manectric and Scizor can pivot out into a Venusaur check and potentially force it out, thus forcing it to take multiple instances of hazard damage and chip from the aforementioned pivot move.

--- It gives balance a very strong tool

Sage addressed the same issue in his post, which I have quoted earlier. Yes, Mega Venusaur does wonders for balanced teams and brings the playstyle more relevancy. However, balance has been extremely souped up solely due to Mega Venusaur's presence. Other S-ranked Pokemon in Scizor and Latias are huge contributors to the effectiveness of offensive teams throughout much of the gen, but the playstyle's success isn't exclusively resultant of the two's impact.

--- Mega Venusaur keeps bulky waters in check and even breaks through Alo-Quag-Bliss

My reasoning against this point is similar to how I feel about Mega Venusaur checking voltturn cores. The issue of breaking Alomomola, Quagsire, and Blissey cores isn't as serious of an issue as this part of Pif's post makes it out to be, as there are plenty of wallbreakers and stallbreakers that deal with this trio. As such, this particular argument as well as any others based around 'benefits' that Mega Venusaur may provide, are moot points.

I've gotten reqs twice now, and I'll be voting do not ban. I don't have much to add outside of pokeisfun's excellent analysis. Venu's offensive presence is being grossly overrated. It's good, but even taking Sludge Bomb's poison chance into account, it's still not actually that impressive. And while it wins a lot of 1v1s, it also struggles to switch into many of the strong attackers of UU.

As for it being limiting in teambuilding, I'm finding the exact opposite. I've built five teams since MVenu dropped, all with a fairly large amount of variety, and I don't consider it any more constraining than, say, Latias or Gliscor was. Those teams have ranged from teams with really strong anti-Venu techs (such as one with Reuniclus and mixed def Chesnaught) to teams that on paper should struggle with Venu, but in practice rarely find any difficulty (such as a balance team where switchins like MAggron and Tentacruel combined with wish support provide more than enough defensive counterplay). Specially defensive Steels in general are a nightmare for Venu. You absolutely do not need to slap a Kommo-O or Taunt Crobat on every team just to keep from losing at preview.

Looking at the main team archetypes, balance and bulky offense probably straight up benefit from MVenu's drop, as it provides a powerful offensive pivot that punishes some common archetypes like VoltTurn. Stall rarely has an issue at all with the Synth + 3 attacks set, though boosting sets can be trouble thanks to Toxic immunity and the ability to punch through Quagsire. But it's nothing insurmountable, and stall can adjust fairly easily; most of the sets are punished by common Haze users, for instance. It also enjoys being able to use MVenu itself, so overall I'd consider it a wash. Offense requires the largest adjustments, and is probably the team archetype that will most commonly resort to 'mons like Kommo-O, Crobat or Reuniclus, but they can also just work on ensuring that Venu can't reliably switch in without taking a large enough chunk of damage that it's forced to Synth.

In general I've actually been enjoying the current suspect ladder quite a lot, and for all that people here are talking about how restricting MVenu is, I've probably seen more variety on the ladder recently than I have over the past couple of months. Yes, it's really, really good... but really good does not mean broken, and never has.

Here, Hogg proposes the idea that Mega Venusaur isn't a limiting factor while building. To support this point, he states that some of the teams he's built have 'really strong anti-Venu techs (such as one with Reuniclus and mixed def Chesnaught).' Upon checking the VR, I've found that both Reuniclus and Chesnaught are ranked at C+. Furthermore, Amane Misa stated in her own post that Toxicroak was more effective with Mega Venusaur in the tier, and Pif also listed Venomoth as a Mega Venusaur check in his post that outlined all of the supposed checks to Mega Venusaur in the tier. It just so happens that these two Pokemon are ranked at C+ as well. Sure, there are other, higher ranked Pokemon like Kommo-o that have benefitted from Mega Venusaur being in the tier, but there has also been a rise in more unorthodox countermeasures, such as Toxic Corrosion Salazzle, Z-Dream Eater Rotom-Mow, and Z-Extrasensory Raikou. I can't remember the last time a premier threat caused THIS many countermeasures, common or unorthodox, to arise and actually assume some level of viability. Prior to Mega Venusaur's suspect test, the vast majority of the aforementioned Pokemon and sets were irrelevant, and this change in drastic countermeasures should definitely be a major concern to all players who are interested in helping to shape the best tier possible.

After reading this thread and playing on the ladder, I wanna take part of the discussion and go against some arguments I thought were bad while stating some thoughts about Venu and the tier. I will structure my post in hide tags so you don't feel forced to read a TL;DR and can focus on the parts that interest you.

On Venusaur and centralization

So one point that has often been brought up is that MVenu is centralizing and forcing people to run Pokemons like Crobat, Reuniclus or Kommo-o. Well obviously if a new and strong Pokemon becomes available, it's normal that it's gonna change the tier and I don't think this is necessarily wrong. I don't think you should ban something just because it changes the status-quo.

Is Venusaur centralizing? Probably in a way. Is it a Pokemon able to dish out uncontrollable amount of damages or wall everything under the sun once on the field? I am sure it isn't, and consequently, I don't think it will be centralizing in a unhealthy way (like a Landorus-I would be in OU for example).

Venusaur flaws and how they make it non brainless and playable around

I've played a lot of XY OU when MVenu was a force there, and this Pokemon, while good, had clear drawbacks that made it manageable in many ways. I feel like those can be seen in SM UU. I'll elaborate on them in a second, but I wanna state that because of them, I do not think MVenu is brainless at all, and doesn't reward "brainless button clicking", like I've read here. The two main reasons IMO are: the lack of passive recovery and the fact that it takes full damage from all entry hazards. Just for those two reasons, Venusaur isn't brainless, because it can't always stay healthy and can be worn down through double switches alone (in addition to all the checks & counters at disposal of course). It's also crippled by Burn/Paralysis, which are things to take into account, especially when dealing with Balance. As a result, I think Balance have enough tools to not be overwhelmed by Venusaur, and once again, that is without talking about its checks & counters. You can completely check a Venusaur passively, on top of your Pokemons meant to deal with it in the first place. It's not like an Amoonguss which will heal for free and which doesn't care about chip damages.

I also encourage you to read PIF's post in this thread because he tackles this issue quite well.

Venusaur's pseudo checks and effect on rise/decrease of other Pokemons

On that subject, I don't understand why people keep bringing up that Moltres and Latias are not good checks because they can't really switch into Sludge Bomb... I mean, yeah ok? They maybe should not be considered as good checks to begin with? Nobody's forcing you to rely on those two to deal with Venusaur. That's why they're only "checks" to begin with. In the same order of idea, I don't see why it's bad that some lesser used Pokemons rise to prominence because they can be used to deal with Venusaur. If anything, it shows that the tier has the tools to deal with it. It's not like you're using completely useless Pokemons outside of beating Venu when you use stuff like Crobat/Reuni/Kommo-o.

Venusaur impact on various playstyles

Someone already stated it, but I think the playstyle that's gonna be affected the most by Venusaur is Offense. Venusaur tends to struggle in long-games IMO due to its relative weakness to hazards, reliance on a flawed recovery move and lack of either coverage or setup options. Offense will obviously have to incorporate specific ways to deal with Venu just because of its raw bulk and ability to hit back hard vs frail Pkmns.

However, I think this is for the best. I am a supporter of anything that deters random and poorly assembled offense to function. I do think that it's healthy for the tier that Offense builders need to come up with specific Pokemons/strategies/ideas to deal with something of Venusaur's caliber, rather than just putting offensive Pokemons together, adding an Azelf or whatever suicide rocker you prefer and then hoping for the best.

Venusaur potential and future

Finally, I'd like to talk a bit about using Venusaur, rather than facing it. I think the set that will see the most amount of play at first is standard 3 atks/synthesis because it's pretty much self-sufficient, straight to the point and the tier is still trying to find the best ways/formulas to deal with Venu as a whole (especially vs this set). Whenever I talked about Venusaur before in this post, I had this exact set in mind.

Now, should Venu stays in the tier, I think this set will stay relatively good but not unbearable and people will eventually adapt to it. However, as it's often been stated already, Venusaur's only real weaknesses are Flying and Psychic. Those two types actually have to deal with some of the worst weaknesses to have in this game. Stealth Rocks for flying types and Pursuit for Psychic types. What I am getting at is that, I can see Venusaur becoming really hard to deal with the appropriate support, and able to outlast Balance and even Stall with the appropriate moveset & support. After all, Venusaur is pretty versatile support/setup wise, between Curse/Growth/Swords Dance or Knock Off/Leech Seed. With Venu in the tier, I wouldn't be surprised to see UU become a bit fatter and other Venusaur sets will begin to shine as a result, especially with its two main weaknesses being abusable in deathly ways.

At the end of the day, I'd like Venusaur to stay in the tier, if only to be revisited later. I think it will be a good asset to Balance and will make Offense (and even Stall) less braindead, which imo are good things to reward skill and clever gameplanning.

In comparison to everyone else I've quoted thus far, I trust McMeghan's abilities as a player and contributor the most. Despite this, I still disagree with some of perspectives he's offered. MCM starts off by making a comparison to Mega Venu's effect on the XY OU tier, and while I'm fairly certain that he's not letting the effect Mega Venu's had in another tier affect his judgement on how it pertains to UU, it's still pretty pointless to bring up as the two metas are vastly different and are subject to different trends and standards. He then states that Mega Venusaur is manageable due to two reasons, those being that its limited recovery can be abused and that it's subject to all types of hazards. Throughout my own ladder run, I've seen opposing players conserve Mega Venusaur's Synthesis PP and haven't played a single game where it exhausted all of its Synthesis PP. The fact of the matter is that the majority of games aren't going to be as slow-paced or intensive for Mega Venusaur to ever risk losing its recovery move's PP, and that the issue in general is being oversimplified to a large extent. As for the point that Mega Venusaur is affected by all hazards, it of course doesn't mind Toxic Spikes at all and is of course subject to significant damage from spikestack teams. My issue with this point is that a bunch of the tier's best Defoggers synergise well with Mega Venusaur, and as Serperior has risen to OU, there isn't really a consistent way to discourage or even prevent Defog. MCM also brings up Amoonguss and how Regenerator allows it to circumvent its otherwise limited recovery options in an attempt to justify Mega Venusaur's unban, but the fact is that Mega Venusaur is the second of the recent drops that is being suspected, not Amoonguss. The last point I want to address about MCM's post is about 'Venusaur's potential and future' in the tier. This section is full of hypothetical assumptions, similar to Sage's post, the most prominent one being that 'the tier is still trying to find the best ways/formulas to deal with Venu.' In my opinion, the tier's already been affected in such a monumental way, with the viabilities of many Pokemon undergoing change as a result of Mega Venusaur's introduction that there really is little room for any other additional countermeasures to shine. I've already gone over why this very change is an issue when addressing Hogg's post, and I do stand by my proposal that the negatives brought about by these changes far outweight the benefits.

As I've said before, my main issue with Mega Venusaur isn't about how arguably broken it is, but its affects on the tier and how they're extremely large scale. The tier is being flipped near upside down with the rise of previously (borderline) unviable Pokemon and building trends are disrupting a balance that could be had without Mega Venu's presence in UU. Putting the 'Mega Venusaur is broken' rationalization aside, if you could choose to play a tier including Mega Venusaur and one without, which would you go with? I'd definitely feel safer in believing in the upside of the latter, and I do hope you'll join me in banning Mega Venusaur from the tier so that, to the best of our capabilities, we may further contribute towards a better tier.

 

[aVocado]

What's the logic behind having to have a fresh alt and uuvs before your name? that's annoying and looks completely unnecessary..

 

[justdrew]

avocado it is similar to how during suspect tests on the suspect ladder players use new alts. The tag before the name ensures the alt was made after the suspect started. The suspect ladder goes up at a set time so you can't ladder before it's up, but since this is the regular ladder, the tag is necessary. Since it is a suspect I don't think it is annoying. I hope this helped! :)

 

[Rabia]

So I've gotten reqs and have also been laddering past the required amount of games necessary to vote, which has provided me with additional exposure to Mega Venusaur and the trends it's forcing. I'm of the opinion that it's unhealthy for the tier, and not for the reasons you may think or assume based on previous pro-ban Mega Venusaur posts. Sure, one can make the argument that Mega Venusaur has the bulk to withstand and check many of the tier's premier offensive threats, great defensive typing and a hand ability, and all of the necessary weapons in its arsenal to combat its usual checks, therefore making it broken. However, I'm not of the opinion that Mega Venusaur is specifically broken due to its commanding traits, and this definitely should not be the sole or even the main point of focus when considering it unhealthy for the tier. I'm more concerned with the negatively influential trends it is forcing, its effects on the current playstyles, and general teambuilding tendencies regarding Mega Venusaur.

Before I continue, I'd also like to share my perspective on this current suspect test. Below you'll see a list of all of the Pokemon UU has suspected publicly since the start of SM's tiering:

Notice a trend here? With the exception of Mega Slowbro, all of the above Pokemon were suspected due to their overwhelming offensive capabilities. It's obvious to say that if most of these Pokemon had less of an offensive ceiling, then they wouldn't have been suspected in the first place. I've read certain posts that claim Mega Venusaur's offensive abilities are underwhelming and therefore it isn't ban-worthy, and this seems backwards since it's following the same logic that should be used to consider any Pokemon being suspected for being too great of an offensive threat. This leads up perfectly to the perspective I would like to offer: consider Mega Venusaur's suspect test differently as you would for most of our previously suspected Pokemon. Even someone who's new to the game will agree that offensive and defensive Pokemon shouldn't be compared by using the same metrics. True, Mega Venusaur has an above average offensive presence for a strictly definitive wall, but I believe it's false to consider this facet out of context and as one would usually consider it if an offensive threat was being suspected.

After following the arguments and viewpoints presented in earlier posts, I've noticed that certain people, all of whom I respect and admire, of the anti-ban camp are offering other flawed justifications for their reasonings. I'd like to address four of these posts and why I believe the viewpoints presented in the following posts are either unrealistic or arguably false. Please note that some of these posts may have been addressed already, but that I'd also like to offer my own perspective on the material that's being presented.



Mega Venusaur hasn't been in the tier for long, but an argument proposing that 'the meta will adapt to' Mega Venusaur is a prediction at best and shouldn't be a driving force behind an anti-ban argument. Hypotheticals are volatile, and there's no guarantee that Mega Venusaur will be adapted to. Remember the join Breloom and Buzzwole suspect test which ended in Breloom's unban? Some may have thought that it would've been adapted to, but Breloom ended up being suspected a second time and subsequently banned. This logic isn't sound and hasn't been reliably accurate in the past, so I wouldn't consider it highly at all. The next bit about Mega Venusaur 'having a positive effect on the revitalization of balance teams' is also something I'd like to refute. Strictly balanced teams have struggled over the past couple of months, and Mega Venusaur's introduction to the tier has not only improved balance, but has put it on steroids and has caused balance to become unusually great. The issue of its recovery is also not a huge deal, as this may lead some to believe that Mega Venusaur is the only member of its team up against a fully stacked opposing team. On some balanced teams, I have seen Mega Venusaur supported by Wish users, such as Sylveon, Alomomola, and even Umbreon, which doesn't force it to rely on Synthesis as much. Generally, the issues presented in this excerpt are either flimsily presented or are vastly undermined.



Pif has provided three arguments that are insufficient to ban Mega Venusuar and three others that propose it is good for the tier. I'll separate my responses for each of these six arguments so that my insight is easier to follow.

Arguments that are insufficient to ban Mega Venusaur:

--- All S rank threats are going to be restricting as well as all metagame threats, Venusaur isn't actually nearly as restricting as other threats

I've addressed the issue with treating offensive Pokemon in the same vein as defensive ones and why it's an inaccurate way to present an argument. Mega Venu definitely isn't as offensively restricting as the other S rank threats in Scizor and Latias, but it sure offers more defensive maneuverability (to the point where it's unhealthy) than these two and is arguably has the most sustainable longevity amongst the three.

--- Venusaur isn't really versatile at all and actually can almost never get past many of its counters

Mega Venusaur has only been with us a short while, so making any conclusions about its versatility is a rushed assumption at this point. As of now, the most popular set I've seen runs Synthesis, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and HP Fire. The coverage sure is versatile and above average, considering Mega Venusaur's above average offensive firepower for a defensively oriented wall. Most of its counters, the majority of which are Psychic or Flying-types, already have a harder time functioning due to the prevalance of Pursuit trapping and Stealth Rock. It's also important to note that Venusaur doesn't need to get past its counters for it to function properly. That's what teammates are for. While laddering, I played versus an obscene amount of Mega Venusaur, Empoleon, and Krookodile cores, all of which would obstruct my usual Mega Venusaur countermeasures. This reasoning in particular is a shallow one to support the anti-ban argument.

--- You think Venusaur is brainless? Try Regenerator Amoonguss

I'm not a fan of the 'Mega Venusaur is brainless' argument in general, but completely avoiding the suspect-worthy Pokemon to talk about Amoonguss to try and downplay Mega Venusaur's abilities seems to be quite the flawed argument. This is a particularly unproductive point to discuss or even address, as Mega Venusaur being brainless to use isn't a point that should be weighted heavily whether you're assuming a pro-ban or anti-ban stance.

Arguments that propose Mega Venusaur is good for the tier:

--- It helps keep Manectric-Scizor cores in check

With Gliscor gone, the tier has lost a blanket check to most voltturn cores. This doesn't mean that there's a specific need to plug Mega Venusaur into this role and to use this as a justification for allowing it in the tier, and there are plenty of other ways to discourage and counteract voltturn chains. Hazards, Ground-types, and general Mega Manectric and Scizor checks are only a few ways for teams to obstruct opposing voltturn based teams. Of course, Mega Manectric and Scizor aren't being suspected right now either, so it's not absolutely necessary for anyone to address the need for a check to the Mega Manectric-Scizor core. If anything, both Manectric and Scizor can pivot out into a Venusaur check and potentially force it out, thus forcing it to take multiple instances of hazard damage and chip from the aforementioned pivot move.

--- It gives balance a very strong tool

Sage addressed the same issue in his post, which I have quoted earlier. Yes, Mega Venusaur does wonders for balanced teams and brings the playstyle more relevancy. However, balance has been extremely souped up solely due to Mega Venusaur's presence. Other S-ranked Pokemon in Scizor and Latias are huge contributors to the effectiveness of offensive teams throughout much of the gen, but the playstyle's success isn't exclusively resultant of the two's impact.

--- Mega Venusaur keeps bulky waters in check and even breaks through Alo-Quag-Bliss

My reasoning against this point is similar to how I feel about Mega Venusaur checking voltturn cores. The issue of breaking Alomomola, Quagsire, and Blissey cores isn't as serious of an issue as this part of Pif's post makes it out to be, as there are plenty of wallbreakers and stallbreakers that deal with this trio. As such, this particular argument as well as any others based around 'benefits' that Mega Venusaur may provide, are moot points.



Here, Hogg proposes the idea that Mega Venusaur isn't a limiting factor while building. To support this point, he states that some of the teams he's built have 'really strong anti-Venu techs (such as one with Reuniclus and mixed def Chesnaught).' Upon checking the VR, I've found that both Reuniclus and Chesnaught are ranked at C+. Furthermore, Amane Misa stated in her own post that Toxicroak was more effective with Mega Venusaur in the tier, and Pif also listed Venomoth as a Mega Venusaur check in his post that outlined all of the supposed checks to Mega Venusaur in the tier. It just so happens that these two Pokemon are ranked at C+ as well. Sure, there are other, higher ranked Pokemon like Kommo-o that have benefitted from Mega Venusaur being in the tier, but there has also been a rise in more unorthodox countermeasures, such as Toxic Corrosion Salazzle, Z-Dream Eater Rotom-Mow, and Z-Extrasensory Raikou. I can't remember the last time a premier threat caused THIS many countermeasures, common or unorthodox, to arise and actually assume some level of viability. Prior to Mega Venusaur's suspect test, the vast majority of the aforementioned Pokemon and sets were irrelevant, and this change in drastic countermeasures should definitely be a major concern to all players who are interested in helping to shape the best tier possible.



In comparison to everyone else I've quoted thus far, I trust McMeghan's abilities as a player and contributor the most. Despite this, I still disagree with some of perspectives he's offered. MCM starts off by making a comparison to Mega Venu's effect on the XY OU tier, and while I'm fairly certain that he's not letting the effect Mega Venu's had in another tier affect his judgement on how it pertains to UU, it's still pretty pointless to bring up as the two metas are vastly different and are subject to different trends and standards. He then states that Mega Venusaur is manageable due to two reasons, those being that its limited recovery can be abused and that it's subject to all types of hazards. Throughout my own ladder run, I've seen opposing players conserve Mega Venusaur's Synthesis PP and haven't played a single game where it exhausted all of its Synthesis PP. The fact of the matter is that the majority of games aren't going to be as slow-paced or intensive for Mega Venusaur to ever risk losing its recovery move's PP, and that the issue in general is being oversimplified to a large extent. As for the point that Mega Venusaur is affected by all hazards, it of course doesn't mind Toxic Spikes at all and is of course subject to significant damage from spikestack teams. My issue with this point is that a bunch of the tier's best Defoggers synergise well with Mega Venusaur, and as Serperior has risen to OU, there isn't really a consistent way to discourage or even prevent Defog. MCM also brings up Amoonguss and how Regenerator allows it to circumvent its otherwise limited recovery options in an attempt to justify Mega Venusaur's unban, but the fact is that Mega Venusaur is the second of the recent drops that is being suspected, not Amoonguss. The last point I want to address about MCM's post is about 'Venusaur's potential and future' in the tier. This section is full of hypothetical assumptions, similar to Sage's post, the most prominent one being that 'the tier is still trying to find the best ways/formulas to deal with Venu.' In my opinion, the tier's already been affected in such a monumental way, with the viabilities of many Pokemon undergoing change as a result of Mega Venusaur's introduction that there really is little room for any other additional countermeasures to shine. I've already gone over why this very change is an issue when addressing Hogg's post, and I do stand by my proposal that the negatives brought about by these changes far outweight the benefits.

As I've said before, my main issue with Mega Venusaur isn't about how arguably broken it is, but its affects on the tier and how they're extremely large scale. The tier is being flipped near upside down with the rise of previously (borderline) unviable Pokemon and building trends are disrupting a balance that could be had without Mega Venu's presence in UU. Putting the 'Mega Venusaur is broken' rationalization aside, if you could choose to play a tier including Mega Venusaur and one without, which would you go with? I'd definitely feel safer in believing in the upside of the latter, and I do hope you'll join me in banning Mega Venusaur from the tier so that, to the best of our capabilities, we may further contribute towards a better tier.

So I'm not the most caught up with UU as I used to be, although I have played on the ladder to get an opinion about Mega Venusaur. However, I'd first like to address some of the points you've mentioned, as I heavily disagree with what you've concluded from others' posts. I apologize in advance for a likely lower quality post than what some of you have offered (including you, Accelgor!!!"

I would like to begin by agreeing with your assessment of what UU has suspect tested this generation and how Mega Venusaur stands out. As you stated the vast majority of the suspect tests were done because a Pokemon exerted far too much of an offensive presence, while Mega Venusaur is being tested more for its defensive capabilities (and, to be fair, it's not lacking offensively either). Though I struggle to see why this test should be treated "differently as you would for most of our previously suspected Pokemon"; at the end of the day we're looking at whether or not the Pokemon in question exerts an overall negative influence on the tier through whatever means. It just so happens instead of looking at a Pokemon that does this through its offense, Mega Venusaur mostly does this through its defensive capabilities. This reminds me of Chansey in Gen 5 getting banned from UU not because it was blasting through teams, but because of its raw defensive ability and probably warping of the meta in a way I cannot remember because TOO LONG AGO. The sentiment is very similar between the two tests though; we currently have a Pokemon many are claiming to have warped the meta to favor balance over any other playstyle while also possessing a defensive skillset that is too overwhelming for the tier to handle.

I agree; using a hypothetical to support the claim "Mega Venusaur should not be banned" is not wise, as you are then relying on specific shifts in the meta to occur that would allow for the claim made to be proven true - that Mega Venusaur would get better prepared for, the meta would adapt for it, etc. I would, however, like to address your very first point: Mega Venusaur has not been in the tier for long. I won't stay on this very long since it's primarily a discussion for another place and another time, but I do question the timing of this test. Was only a couple of weeks a fair amount of time to allow for the meta to settle? Were we able to observe Mega Venusaur's true potential? WOULD Mega Venusaur assimilate into the tier better if more time had been given? I won't expand any further because it's unnecessary, but I believe it's this mentality that drew the many hypotheticals you speak of.

I heavily disagree with your analysis of Pif's first statement. Pif isn't saying "Mega Venusaur isn't as offensively restricting as either Latias or Scizor and therefore is fine"; rather, he is stating as a whole Mega Venusaur isn't as restricting. And we know this because of how he supports his claim, mentioning another defensive menace in Blissey which does similar things on the defensive spectrum: walling many Pokemon to hell and back. I do believe it is fair to look at Mega Venusaur and say "I now need a Flying- or Psychic-type Pokemon on my team to deal with Mega Venusaur"; it's an S-ranked Pokemon. It SHOULD be heavily prepared for.

Aren't the purposes of these Flying- and Psychic-type's teammates to cover for their shortcomings, much like how Mega Venusaur's do for it? Isn't it wise to have a way to punish Choice locked Pursuit users on my team if I'm using a Psychic-type? Shouldn't I have entry hazard control if I have a Flying-type? And as I look at the VR and see multiple Flying- and Psychic-type Pokemon in A- and above, I do find it difficult to believe they have all that much of a "harder time functioning due to the prevalence of Pursuit trapping and Stealth Rock". And as for Mega Venusaur's potential versatility: that's all theorymonning based on what could potentially be. We should be looking at this suspect test based on what we know now - not based on what we could know later.

Yeah I have nothing to say about this point; detracting to Amoonguss, while it's still a fair point sure, doesn't help the conversation much outside of showing another Pokemon has some dumb mechanic.

I almost feel like you're arguing to keep Mega Venusaur in the tier here, oddly enough. One of Mega Venusaur's biggest issues is getting chipped away at since it has no passive recovery and must rely on Synthesis a whole lot. While it may be a good blanket check to the common VoltTurn cores this tier has, it struggles to keep up as the opponent can consistently bring in a Mega Venusaur answer off of a pivot. But I wouldn't say it's irrelevant to mention other Pokemon in the tier; part of a suspect test is to determine if a Pokemon's presence in the tier is healthy or not and while I question the validity of the point raised here, the argument stands that Mega Venusaur contributes to being a decent nuisance at least to a currently dominating playstyle (or formerly, honestly not sure).

Nothing to say here, Mega Venusaur has made balance the best archetype.

Again though I don't feel it's a moot point because Pif is demonstrating how Mega Venusaur contributes to the health of the tier; stating "other Pokemon can do it too" isn't really a counterargument as much as it is an observation. Are you saying the tier doesn't need Mega Venusaur to do that and thus Mega Venusaur isn't really contributing to a healthier tier in this sense?

A lot of your post here reminds me of the recent Gigalith test in NU, where Kiyo mentions the rise of Tangela and Weezing to combat Sand staples Sandslash and Stoutland. Why am I mentioned another tier here? Because I feel the message applies very well here. Referring to these Pokemon as "niche" isn't really true; we all know a Pokemon's viability can vastly change thanks to a tier shift. Perhaps this tier shift simply made these Pokemon better than C+. This is why the VR can be a negative thing at times; keep in mind the VR was updated just after Mega Venusaur dropped in and the viability of many Pokemon wasn't really accounted for in the new meta. Discussion on raising the Pokemon benefiting from the current meta is present and demonstrates my main point here: with a new meta come new staples to the tier. Formerly niche Pokemon can rise out of obscurity while formerly dominant ones may fade a bit. They simply aren't C+ Pokemon anymore and thus should not be referred to as unviable considering their current roles in the tier.

Regarding your points about MCM's post: again I believe the hypotheticals being presented are only being presented due to the hasty suspect test. The meta really didn't get to settle in the eyes of many. Now, I agree it is pointless in general to compare separate metas; HOWEVER, I think the overarching point being made need not be ignored: McMeghan argued that the issues Mega Venusaur faced in Gen 6 OU were prevalent in Gen 7 UU. That Mega Venusaur is overly reliant on Synthesis and team support to stay healthy and that Mega Venusaur's susceptibility to being worn down by passive damage and chip damage made it less overbearing. Whether or not this holds true in practice will differ from game to game of course. Everything else you've said in this part is pretty solid though; I can't really argue against Mega Venusaur's synergy with staple Defoggers.

This last part sounds like a political advert at the end lol. My main issue here again comes from you labeling these niche Pokemon as previously unviable. Emphasis is needed on previously; in the current meta these Pokemon just don't hold that distinction anymore, and I feel you have stuck too strongly to old meta feelings and biases. They aren't unmons anymore.

Me personally, I still have not come to a conclusion as to whether or not Mega Venusaur should be banned. I personally enjoy when a tier gets flipped upside down because the meta has to adapt a whole bunch and so far, Mega Venusaur hasn't proven to me that its presence is unbearable to the point it should be banned. I'm open to counterarguments though and would enjoy hearing more about the experiences of others on the ladder during the test.

 

[SuckyTheClown]

I really only started playing UU since Breloom and Buzzwole were being tested but i have noticed a couple things while trying to learn this tier. With the rise of Gliscor and the bans of both buzzwole and breloom the tier has had to adapt to each change. Gliscor moving up allowed VoltTurn teams to kind of comeback. Buzzwole was a big boi and just punished a lot of pokemon. Breloom was really the first mon that i was pro ban on and it really did a lot for offensive teams being able to use LO-SD or lesser used poison heal. It could really punish teams. with that i have had some thoughts on what Venu does.

With Venusaur I'm still on the fence about it. The tier has started to make people run alot of lower tier pokemon to try to check it such as Toxic Corrosion Salazzle, Z-Dream Eater Rotom-Mow, and Z-Extrasensory Raikou. I feel it is unhealthy for a tier to have to run this many low tier counters just to check one pokemon.

Venusaur has brought a lot of help to balance teams being able to be a good wall and check some pokemon like scizor with hp fire and swampert with giga drain.

I have been decently busy because I'm getting ready for college but I have been playing when I can. I Am still on the fence but i would like to see some really solid reasons for keeping it. From what I have seen its a little bit more unhealthy than healthy for the tier. If I were to vote rn i would vote to ban it, but prove me wrong.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Each one of your points misrepresents at least one crucial part of my post, to the point where I am not sure if you quoted me without reading me.

Pif has provided three arguments that are insufficient to ban Mega Venusuar and three others that propose it is good for the tier. I'll separate my responses for each of these six arguments so that my insight is easier to follow.

Arguments that are insufficient to ban Mega Venusaur:

--- All S rank threats are going to be restricting as well as all metagame threats, Venusaur isn't actually nearly as restricting as other threats

I've addressed the issue with treating offensive Pokemon in the same vein as defensive ones and why it's an inaccurate way to present an argument. Mega Venu definitely isn't as offensively restricting as the other S rank threats in Scizor and Latias, but it sure offers more defensive maneuverability (to the point where it's unhealthy) than these two and is arguably has the most sustainable longevity amongst the three.

--- Venusaur isn't really versatile at all and actually can almost never get past many of its counters

Mega Venusaur has only been with us a short while, so making any conclusions about its versatility is a rushed assumption at this point. As of now, the most popular set I've seen runs Synthesis, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and HP Fire. The coverage sure is versatile and above average, considering Mega Venusaur's above average offensive firepower for a defensively oriented wall. Most of its counters, the majority of which are Psychic or Flying-types, already have a harder time functioning due to the prevalance of Pursuit trapping and Stealth Rock. It's also important to note that Venusaur doesn't need to get past its counters for it to function properly. That's what teammates are for. While laddering, I played versus an obscene amount of Mega Venusaur, Empoleon, and Krookodile cores, all of which would obstruct my usual Mega Venusaur countermeasures. This reasoning in particular is a shallow one to support the anti-ban argument.

--- You think Venusaur is brainless? Try Regenerator Amoonguss

I'm not a fan of the 'Mega Venusaur is brainless' argument in general, but completely avoiding the suspect-worthy Pokemon to talk about Amoonguss to try and downplay Mega Venusaur's abilities seems to be quite the flawed argument. This is a particularly unproductive point to discuss or even address, as Mega Venusaur being brainless to use isn't a point that should be weighted heavily whether you're assuming a pro-ban or anti-ban stance.

1) You say I don't properly address the difference between an offensive and defensive threat but I specifically mention that Latias' restraint is that it requires you to run Steels or at least Fairies on most teams with the implication that you need them to defend vs Latias while Mega Venusaur's *claimed* restraint is that it requires you to run Flying or Psychic moves to KO it. I then address in another post why you don't even need a Flying or Psychic:

A not exhaustive list to take away your strongest point:

1. Calm Mind Chandelure
2. Hex Chandelure
3. Specs Chandelure
4. Specs Kyurem
5. Sub Roost Kyurem
6. Specs Hydreigon
7. Roost + LO/Z Hydreigon
8. Salazzle, especially corrosion
9. Beedrill Mega
10. Pain Split Nihilego
11. Z Power Gem Nihilego / Z Sludge Wave Nihilego
12. Blissey
13. Taunt Gengar
14. Recycle Muk
15. Snorlax
16. Rest Aggron
17. Kommo-o
18. Stakataka
19. SD Heracross
20. Venomoth

2) You complain that Mega Venusaur's partners can help beat Mega Veusaur's counters, which is something I don't dispute. But that's Pokemon, if you're running a S rank Pokemon with Pokemon that support it well, yeah obviously you're going to have a good team. If you don't try and experiment with new ways to beat it or use old Pokemon like Heracross to smash through, then that's on you.

3) You say in my third point I "completely avoid" talking about Venusaur when in reality I spend the entire paragraph talking about it and analyzing a replay to show how I needed to predict to win

3) You think Venusaur is brainless? Try Regenerator Amoonguss

I doubt Venusaur is a brainless Pokemon. It takes skill to use and predict when to Sludge Bomb on Empoleons for example, predicting a switch to a Latias or Flying type.

Here's an example of this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-781250027

On turn 5, I have to make a good prediction, if also nearly riskless, in order to get a free KO with Pidgeot after my opponent plays well early on and weakens my only Pidgeot counter, Empoleon. But I make a bad decision later, letting Primarina die on turn 9 instead of going to Latias and after losing Krookodile on turn 12, I'm in an iffy position. A game deciding turn happens on turn 15 - I have to predict with Venusaur either to Synthesis/Sludge Bomb if my opponent switches to CB Infernape or Hidden Power Fire if my opponent U-Turns. I predict wrong and end up losing because of it.

Exactly how was my position so brilliant because of Venusaur that I could end up "button clicking" for the win? This game had clear turns where predictions had to be made with Venusaur, and although good predictions were rewarded, lack of predictions punished me and helped contribute to my loss.

If Pokemon were banned because they were brainless, then we should be suspecting things like Volt-Turn cores and Regenerator cores, which in my opinion are clearly more brainless. If anything, the rise of Amoonguss which is bound to happen if Venusaur gets banned will contribute to some brainless strategy, since it's harder to punish Regenerator Pokemon for bad predictions (for example, Amoonguss can switch in on Primarina's Psychic and not be totally lost).

If you want to read my post and respond, that's fine, but it seems like you just read the headers of my post and then responded with what you thought I said. There are arguments to keep Venusaur in the tier, but completely misquoting me is unfair.

 

[Accel]

So I'm not the most caught up with UU as I used to be, although I have played on the ladder to get an opinion about Mega Venusaur. However, I'd first like to address some of the points you've mentioned, as I heavily disagree with what you've concluded from others' posts. I apologize in advance for a likely lower quality post than what some of you have offered (including you, Accelgor!!!"

I would like to begin by agreeing with your assessment of what UU has suspect tested this generation and how Mega Venusaur stands out. As you stated the vast majority of the suspect tests were done because a Pokemon exerted far too much of an offensive presence, while Mega Venusaur is being tested more for its defensive capabilities (and, to be fair, it's not lacking offensively either). Though I struggle to see why this test should be treated "differently as you would for most of our previously suspected Pokemon"; at the end of the day we're looking at whether or not the Pokemon in question exerts an overall negative influence on the tier through whatever means. It just so happens instead of looking at a Pokemon that does this through its offense, Mega Venusaur mostly does this through its defensive capabilities. This reminds me of Chansey in Gen 5 getting banned from UU not because it was blasting through teams, but because of its raw defensive ability and probably warping of the meta in a way I cannot remember because TOO LONG AGO. The sentiment is very similar between the two tests though; we currently have a Pokemon many are claiming to have warped the meta to favor balance over any other playstyle while also possessing a defensive skillset that is too overwhelming for the tier to handle.

I agree; using a hypothetical to support the claim "Mega Venusaur should not be banned" is not wise, as you are then relying on specific shifts in the meta to occur that would allow for the claim made to be proven true - that Mega Venusaur would get better prepared for, the meta would adapt for it, etc. I would, however, like to address your very first point: Mega Venusaur has not been in the tier for long. I won't stay on this very long since it's primarily a discussion for another place and another time, but I do question the timing of this test. Was only a couple of weeks a fair amount of time to allow for the meta to settle? Were we able to observe Mega Venusaur's true potential? WOULD Mega Venusaur assimilate into the tier better if more time had been given? I won't expand any further because it's unnecessary, but I believe it's this mentality that drew the many hypotheticals you speak of.

I heavily disagree with your analysis of Pif's first statement. Pif isn't saying "Mega Venusaur isn't as offensively restricting as either Latias or Scizor and therefore is fine"; rather, he is stating as a whole Mega Venusaur isn't as restricting. And we know this because of how he supports his claim, mentioning another defensive menace in Blissey which does similar things on the defensive spectrum: walling many Pokemon to hell and back. I do believe it is fair to look at Mega Venusaur and say "I now need a Flying- or Psychic-type Pokemon on my team to deal with Mega Venusaur"; it's an S-ranked Pokemon. It SHOULD be heavily prepared for.

Aren't the purposes of these Flying- and Psychic-type's teammates to cover for their shortcomings, much like how Mega Venusaur's do for it? Isn't it wise to have a way to punish Choice locked Pursuit users on my team if I'm using a Psychic-type? Shouldn't I have entry hazard control if I have a Flying-type? And as I look at the VR and see multiple Flying- and Psychic-type Pokemon in A- and above, I do find it difficult to believe they have all that much of a "harder time functioning due to the prevalence of Pursuit trapping and Stealth Rock". And as for Mega Venusaur's potential versatility: that's all theorymonning based on what could potentially be. We should be looking at this suspect test based on what we know now - not based on what we could know later.

Yeah I have nothing to say about this point; detracting to Amoonguss, while it's still a fair point sure, doesn't help the conversation much outside of showing another Pokemon has some dumb mechanic.

I almost feel like you're arguing to keep Mega Venusaur in the tier here, oddly enough. One of Mega Venusaur's biggest issues is getting chipped away at since it has no passive recovery and must rely on Synthesis a whole lot. While it may be a good blanket check to the common VoltTurn cores this tier has, it struggles to keep up as the opponent can consistently bring in a Mega Venusaur answer off of a pivot. But I wouldn't say it's irrelevant to mention other Pokemon in the tier; part of a suspect test is to determine if a Pokemon's presence in the tier is healthy or not and while I question the validity of the point raised here, the argument stands that Mega Venusaur contributes to being a decent nuisance at least to a currently dominating playstyle (or formerly, honestly not sure).

Nothing to say here, Mega Venusaur has made balance the best archetype.

Again though I don't feel it's a moot point because Pif is demonstrating how Mega Venusaur contributes to the health of the tier; stating "other Pokemon can do it too" isn't really a counterargument as much as it is an observation. Are you saying the tier doesn't need Mega Venusaur to do that and thus Mega Venusaur isn't really contributing to a healthier tier in this sense?

A lot of your post here reminds me of the recent Gigalith test in NU, where Kiyo mentions the rise of Tangela and Weezing to combat Sand staples Sandslash and Stoutland. Why am I mentioned another tier here? Because I feel the message applies very well here. Referring to these Pokemon as "niche" isn't really true; we all know a Pokemon's viability can vastly change thanks to a tier shift. Perhaps this tier shift simply made these Pokemon better than C+. This is why the VR can be a negative thing at times; keep in mind the VR was updated just after Mega Venusaur dropped in and the viability of many Pokemon wasn't really accounted for in the new meta. Discussion on raising the Pokemon benefiting from the current meta is present and demonstrates my main point here: with a new meta come new staples to the tier. Formerly niche Pokemon can rise out of obscurity while formerly dominant ones may fade a bit. They simply aren't C+ Pokemon anymore and thus should not be referred to as unviable considering their current roles in the tier.

Regarding your points about MCM's post: again I believe the hypotheticals being presented are only being presented due to the hasty suspect test. The meta really didn't get to settle in the eyes of many. Now, I agree it is pointless in general to compare separate metas; HOWEVER, I think the overarching point being made need not be ignored: McMeghan argued that the issues Mega Venusaur faced in Gen 6 OU were prevalent in Gen 7 UU. That Mega Venusaur is overly reliant on Synthesis and team support to stay healthy and that Mega Venusaur's susceptibility to being worn down by passive damage and chip damage made it less overbearing. Whether or not this holds true in practice will differ from game to game of course. Everything else you've said in this part is pretty solid though; I can't really argue against Mega Venusaur's synergy with staple Defoggers.

This last part sounds like a political advert at the end lol. My main issue here again comes from you labeling these niche Pokemon as previously unviable. Emphasis is needed on previously; in the current meta these Pokemon just don't hold that distinction anymore, and I feel you have stuck too strongly to old meta feelings and biases. They aren't unmons anymore.

Me personally, I still have not come to a conclusion as to whether or not Mega Venusaur should be banned. I personally enjoy when a tier gets flipped upside down because the meta has to adapt a whole bunch and so far, Mega Venusaur hasn't proven to me that its presence is unbearable to the point it should be banned. I'm open to counterarguments though and would enjoy hearing more about the experiences of others on the ladder during the test.

I'd be a fool if I didn't agree that during a suspect test, we're supposed to be 'looking at whether or not the Pokemon in question exerts an overall negative influence on the tier through whatever means.' This is basically a summation of what suspect tests are all about, and I definitely am aware of and support the natural mentality one is advised to have during these periods. I do believe that you may have misconstrued my point though; when I proposed that people treat Mega Venusaur differently as compared to more offensive suspected Pokemon in past stages, I was stating that a difference should be noted when comparing the roles offensive and defensive Pokemon fulfill. Of course, I'm not refuting the point that Mega Venusaur has above average firepower when compared to most other defensive walls, because although this may not be my main argument for choosing to ban it, it certainly is still a point I stand by.

You then speak of the limited period of time that we've been given to integrate Mega Venusaur into the tier. The last tier shift, during which Mega Venusaur dropped to UU, occured on 7/8/18, which is roughly a month ago. One can argue that a month isn't enough time to deem whether a Pokemon is suspect-worthy or not, but you must remember that the council agreed to suspect Mega Venusaur for a reason. No matter what stance the members of the UU council may assume, they all believe, to some degree, that Mega Venusaur is too much for the tier to handle. This is exactly why it was suspected in the first place, so that these initial beliefs may be altered or further strengthened. I myself do think that we've been given a sufficient amount of time to gauge Mega Venusaur's effects in the tier and how, arguably negatively, influential they are. This is proven due to quickly variant changes in the viabilities of so many Pokemon in the tier, with some like Mega Altaria taking a huge hit while others like Kommo-o and a plethora of lower ranked and previously niche and low-upside Pokemon experienced a boost in effectiveness. All of the hypotheticals that are addressed are therefore assuming that the current development the tier has undergone is one to be ignored to an extent or not to be taken seriously, which I highly object to. I believe your own statement sums my thoughts up perfectly on this matter, and I'm referring to when you say that 'we should be looking at this suspect test based on what we know now - not based on what we could know later.'

I'll be addressing why you think I've misunderstood Pif's post in a response to his own post, so please refer to that as it should help to further clarify some of the points I've made.

You've stated that 'I almost feel like you're arguing to keep Mega Venusaur in the tier here, oddly enough,' and I can't refute this statement any more than I have in my initial post. You're only considering one side of the coin when talking about how pivoting from Mega Manectric or Scizor on Mega Venu into one of it's checks; it is only right to consider the other side as well. Most Mega Venu spreads have adapted to outspeed Scizor and nab it with HP Fire, and Mega Manectric obviously fails to chip Mega Venu in a significant way. I've also previously addressed the issues of most Mega Venu checks and their shortcomings, while also stating that Mega Venusaur's common partners have little issues in disrupting most of its usual countermeasures. 'But I wouldn't say it's irrelevant to mention other Pokemon in the tier,' is therefore a point of yours that I also agree with, as considering Mega Venusaur and its effects in a vacuum only involving Mega Venusaur enough is most probably the most foolish of stances any person choosing to vote can assume. I'm not assuming any double standards here, and I'd advise you to think in a similar way.

The last point of yours I'll address is about your reference to the recent Gigalith test in NU, and how it also affected the viability of lower ranking Pokemon. I have no issue at all with shifting viabilities, as this happens all of the time and is a big proponent to the tier's progression throughout the gen. As I've stated in my previous post, my issue is when this happens on a large scale and brings about monumental change to the point where Mega Venusaur isn't just considered as a S rank threat that should be adapted around but one whose influences far surpass those of other S ranked mons and brings about the notion that Mega Venusaur may be too good to be on the same level as these two after all. This sentence basically sums up my stance on Mega Venusaur, and I will choose to still stand by it.

Each one of your points misrepresents at least one crucial part of my post, to the point where I am not sure if you quoted me without reading me.

1) You say I don't properly address the difference between an offensive and defensive threat but I specifically mention that Latias' restraint is that it requires you to run Steels or at least Fairies on most teams with the implication that you need them to defend vs Latias while Mega Venusaur's *claimed* restraint is that it requires you to run Flying or Psychic moves to KO it. I then address in another post why you don't even need a Flying or Psychic:

2) You complain that Mega Venusaur's partners can help beat Mega Veusaur's counters, which is something I don't dispute. But that's Pokemon, if you're running a S rank Pokemon with Pokemon that support it well, yeah obviously you're going to have a good team. If you don't try and experiment with new ways to beat it or use old Pokemon like Heracross to smash through, then that's on you.

3) You say in my third point I "completely avoid" talking about Venusaur when in reality I spend the entire paragraph talking about it and analyzing a replay to show how I needed to predict to win

If you want to read my post and respond, that's fine, but it seems like you just read the headers of my post and then responded with what you thought I said. There are arguments to keep Venusaur in the tier, but completely misquoting me is unfair.

I'm shocked that you're assuming that I didn't read your post at all and to convincingly refute this point, I'd like to quote an excerpt from my initial post.

After following the arguments and viewpoints presented in earlier posts, I've noticed that certain people, all of whom I respect and admire, of the anti-ban camp are offering other flawed justifications for their reasonings.

The sole reason for me typing out this otherwise redundant bit was to shut out all notions that I failed to read each and every single one of the posts before addressing them. If you'll follow my responses to Sage, Hogg, and MCM's posts, you'll see that there is no doubt that I read all of the arguments they had to offer before proposing my rebuttal. I'm definitely not opposed to further expand upon my opposition to your points, and will hope that this helps to delete this thought of yours for good. As you've outlined your three discussion points by numerical bullets, I'll do the same to maintain the same linearity.

1) I agree that Latias and Mega Venusaur are answered differently, as the former's counterplay is most usually switching in to a Fairy or Steel-type that can stomach its STAB hits, while the latter is meant to be worked around by primarily offensive means. If you've been following this discussion in this thread to the extent I have, then you may also remember yeezyknows's post which offered that most of the Pokemon on your list were either niche, easily checked and dispatched by Mega Venusaur's common partners, or valid with heavy caveats. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments presented in this post, and you can refer to it a second time if necessary if you still require further clarification on this front.

2) I'd like to reiterate that my main issue with Mega Venusaur isn't the issue of it being broken or hard to deal with. Those are still extremely high up on my list of reasonings to ban Mega Venusaur, but my frontrunning concern are the, in my opinion, negative and extreme changes and trends that are being brought about as a result of its presence. Sure, Mega Venusaur isn't completely unbreakable or impossible to deal with, but you're considering it on a pedestal by itself and if you have noted the ways players support Mega Venusaur during your suspect ladder run(s), then you can't deny that having a Mega Venusaur on your team just isn't enough. This is especially true if you consider the very prominent downsides that most Mega Venusaur checks have to deal with, and you feeling the need to provide a list of mostly niche Pokemon seems like you're grasping at straws in a relatively weak attempt to justify Mega Venusaur's place in the tier.

3) Here you're taking my words out of context. I've provided another excerpt from my post that shows that I was referring to your proposal that Amoonguss has a benefit over Mega Venusaur.

I'm not a fan of the 'Mega Venusaur is brainless' argument in general, but completely avoiding the suspect-worthy Pokemon to talk about Amoonguss to try and downplay Mega Venusaur's abilities seems to be quite the flawed argument.

I've also stated that the 'Mega Venusaur is brainless' argument is one that I'm not a fan of. Therefore, I have no qualms about your in-depth replay analysis as this is not a point I'm concerned with. I go by Accelgor, not CBU, so if you'd like to address the specific point of Mega Venusaur inspiring brainless play, I'd implore you to keep this discussion involved with his statements and not mine.

 

[Godsend]

So, I accidentally got reqs on an account that doesn't have the UUVS tag, which is fine because I don't feel like voting and don't feel I know enough about the meta. My feeling about Venu, however is that it shouldn't be banned. To preface this, I'm generally pretty conservative when it comes to banning mons, I think in general it's best to let the tier adjust to incoming mons (not Mega Diancie though, holy shit). Also, it is generally harder to ban a mon based off of its defensive capabilities. Salamence, for example was pretty clearly broken in the tier because it could easily and reliably sweep through even well prepared teams.

When it comes to my experience with Venusaur, I've mainly been using a bulky set with Sludge Bomb/HP Fire/Synthesis/Leech Seed and I don't find myself leaning on it defensively as much as I expected. It checks a lot of things in the meta but isn't a blanket wall to the entire tier like some people make it out to be. In team building, I don't feel an overbearing need to put multiple direct counters on my team to ensure I don't lose to it. You have to consider its presence while building, of course, but all top mons in any tier are that way. So, personally, I would vote DO NOT BAN, but i'm not really good at this game, so I could be wrong.

Last, I just want to talk about how good sub protect Suicune has been for me. I know it's not an uncommon set but holy shit this mon has been great at PP stalling and sweeping, it's been incredible. I run a bulkier set than the one on the site but it has worked wonders.

That's all I've got. I hope everyone has a nice day :]

 

[OrangeGuru]

1) I agree that Latias and Mega Venusaur are answered differently, as the former's counterplay is most usually switching in to a Fairy or Steel-type that can stomach its STAB hits, while the latter is meant to be worked around by primarily offensive means. If you've been following this discussion in this thread to the extent I have, then you may also remember yeezyknows's post which offered that most of the Pokemon on your list were either niche, easily checked and dispatched by Mega Venusaur's common partners, or valid with heavy caveats. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments presented in this post, and you can refer to it a second time if necessary if you still require further clarification on this front.

I'd just like to reiterate in defense of pif that yeezyknows never elaborated on how those pokemon were niche rather than the tier adapting to Venusaur in a healthy manner. I need some convincing that sets like Taunt Gengar are niche and somehow unhealthy for the tier. So until he elaborates, I'm not sure this part of your argument holds up, especially since good partners to a S rank pokemon will obviously check said S rank's trouble spots; that's pokemon and at some point you have to outplay your opponent since both teams will have checks and counters to the opposing wincon

 

[dingbat]

I’m sure people are interested in seeing some sort of real argument from me that’s not just along the lines of “Free Raptor” lol. However, there’s a couple arguments I would like to address first before I move on to my stance on Mega Venu.

Of course a meta is going to have to adjust a hella lot when potentially top tier or broken threats drop from a higher tier to a lower tier, and I understand that it’s frustrating when you see the same/similar teams on the ladder game after game. That’s the inherent nature of an early meta, which is magnified when a lot of players are opting to steal teams rather than build their own. During this suspect, this community able to steadily identify many more alternative methods of beating Mega Venu without having to resort exclusively to Flying and Psychic types to directly threaten it, and I definitely believe this meta will quickly sort itself out such that we’ll not just see “the same 5-10 teams battle after battle” but also new teams that can exploit those trends without having to completely resort to certain suboptimal shit (like z-dream eater rotom). If that’s not the case in, let’s say, the next month though, then I would be more inclined to believe that there is probably something wrong in this meta. Additionally, I’ve personally had more difficulty adjusting to Gliscor’s departure than I’ve had taking into account the new drops, if anything.

I also shortly addressed the idea of enjoyability within the uu discord with a couple others and I would certainly love to have an enjoyable meta, but the more I think about it, the more full of shit I think that argument is. I’m willing to call myself out for that too because I know for sure I’ve made that exact same argument in past suspects, but from now on if I see that argument being made from here on, I’m literally going to stop taking your opinion on the matter seriously. Here’s a couple of pretty generic examples of this: I clearly did not enjoy this tier when it had Mega Latias; although I did not explicitly state that in my post, I did harbor the belief that it was complete cancer when it was here lol. On the other hand, if we freed Raptor, some of y’all won’t be getting the end of “RAPTOR IS FREED”, “KACAW KACAW”, and “HAHA FUCK ALL GRASS TYPES” spam from me haha. It’s quite literally the most subjective argument out there and I’m pretty sure many others don’t bode well with it either.

That being said, I’m not very convinced that Mega Venusaur is broken or unhealthy in this meta as of now. While it has absolutely become a premier threat in this tier defensively and even offensively, I don’t believe it takes an unnecessary level of adjusting in order to account for it. Unlike a prior fatass suspect in Mega Latias where most non-HO teams legit had to run Toxic on literally half of their team or Alomuk in order to not straight up lose to it, I’ve personally made close to no adjustments, aside from trying out sets that I was previously unfamiliar with, like bulky wisp Chandelure (which is actually a really great set) or CM 3 attacks latias, both of which aren’t out of the ordinary sets here. I believe this meta is fine with Mega Venu here as it is now, and I also believe this community will continue to better adjust with it.

 

[vivalospride]

I also shortly addressed the idea of enjoyability within the uu discord with a couple others and I would certainly love to have an enjoyable meta, but the more I think about it, the more full of shit I think that argument is. I’m willing to call myself out for that too because I know for sure I’ve made that exact same argument in past suspects, but from now on if I see that argument being made from here on, I’m literally going to stop taking your opinion on the matter seriously.

Okay let me make an actual argument for myself then. Ngl at all, I dislike playing this tier atm and that's probably my biggest reasoning for wanting to ban Mega Venusaur, but let me put this aside for a bit and find out why exactly Mega Venusaur is making this tier so annoying to play for me rn. There has been like a million posts by now and I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I've read even half of them, I don't have the patience for that shit... so bear with me if I'm repeating some things.

This mon has made teambuilding a pain in the dick. I can't plop a fire type and expect to break this grass type pokemon. If I have a Mamoswine and Scarf Nape on a team, my Mega Venusaur matchup blows cause it walls both those shits lmfao. I don't wanna have to run Wing Attack on every Maero, I don't wanna run stupid shit like Z Dream Eater Mowtom, I don't wanna have to put up with this shit while building. The fact that I can have a team that is very capable of breaking Amoonguss but straight up loses to Mega Venusaur just irritates me and makes building as a whole more annoying. As Accelgor said, there's counterplay for sure... but it's counterplay that is niche at best and is for the most part, not too difficult to get around for the monster that is Mega Venusaur. Psychic and Flying type moves are (for the most part) what we're limited to in order to break mvenu. Flying types are weak to rocks and have a hard time switching into Sludge Bomb. Psychic types are weak to pursuit. I'm sure this has been brought up like a million times, and yes ik shit like Reuniclus can facetank pursuits all day long, but the fact that I'm being forced to run Reuniclus if I want to reliably break this dickhead mon is just annoying to me.

Another thing about the whole "the meta will settle" thing. Let's say mvenu isn't banned and it stays in the tier, and the meta settles and we "adapt" to mvenu at least somewhat. As of right now I've been asked "what does mvenu run" by like 20 different people. I've gotten by on the ladder by just assuming it's the 3 attacks + Synthesis set, and switched into it accordingly. I doubt it'll always be this simple, I think mvenu's movepool is far too vast and stats far too stacked across the board to let this be the case forever. As shit quiets down I wouldn't be surprised if people start looking into other sets a lot more. Curse mvenu, leech seed mvenu, sleep powder mvenu, growth mvenu, etc. will all gain popularity as the meta settles, making dealing with this thing much more annoying. Shit like sub cm Chandy will be getting earthquaked more and more, and we won't be able to rely on the same old niche shit forever.

Like I said, my thoughts on this suspect were simply "this isn't fun, I'm voting ban," so I didn't have to type all this bullshit out, but when I thought about it a bit, I am narrowly on the side of ban mvenu regardless of putting my enjoyment to the side.

This mon is 100% too offensively restrictive, the list of answers is too short and too niche. The meta still has to settle a bit, sure but we don't know how that'll end up. All we know is what's going on right here and now, and right here and now I feel like this tier is not only less fun, but less healthy with mvenu in it.

ps: killbat

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

I feel like I'd regret if I didn't put my own opinions out here. This isn't going to be a massive wall of text, as that's not my style. I prefer to get to the point. So, here's the reasons why I want to ban Mega Venusaur.

About the arguments presented in this thread so far: a staggeringly and disappointingly large portion of the no ban arguments i've seen (note: not the good ones, like hogg mcmeghan etc.) seem to revolve around Mega Venusaur being not broken on its own, and therefore not banworthy. I agree that it's not broken, there's no arguing that. However, something not being broken does not mean that it isn't banworthy; there are more qualifications for something to be banworthy than it having no defensive/offensive counterplay. Mega Venusaur is a perfect example of that. Mega Venusaur not being broken should absolutely not be your sole reason to vote no ban.

Despite Mega Venusaur not being broken, I fully believe this Pokemon is extremely unhealthy for the tier, specifically for tier versatility. Mega Venusaur is, in my opinion, making this meta extremely narrow in scope from what I've seen on my reqs run; balance is the absolute most dominant archetype right now because Mega Venusaur exists, and the vast majority of teams I've seen have been venu/empo balance, venu/pursuit trapper balance, empoleon/kommo-o balance, venu/moltres balance, crobat bulky offense, kommo-o bulky offense, or some other variant of the same nature. Needless to say, this is not the sign of a versatile or healthy tier. It is entirely possible that I was merely unlucky with what I faced in my run, but this does not change my opinion, as it's based on what I've seen. It's also extremely taxing to build against Mega Venusaur without using one of these listed team styles as well, which is why I gave up and just stole teams from friends for this suspect. (I'm not saying I'm a good builder, or anything, so please do not take my opinion on this matter as raw fact.) Say what you want about how "the tier will adapt", but like vivalospride and Accelgor said, I'm not voting based on a potential future. I'm voting based on how it is right here, right now.

It's worth noting that without Mega Venusaur, balance will still be viable. We have Amoonguss and other balance staples like Mega Aggron to bolster the playstyle. Sure, it won't be the most dominant playstyle by far with Mega Venusaur gone, but if a Pokemon bolsters an entire playstyle from "decent" to "by far the best" singlehandedly, that Pokemon is not healthy and should not stay in the tier, in my opinion.

 

[mashonem]

Psychic and Flying type moves are (for the most part) what we're limited to in order to break mvenu.

This is the main reason why I'm voting do not ban. Yes, the number of solid Psychic and Flying types are somewhat limiting, but that's not all that beats MVenu. You don't have to hit it hard super effectively, but you do have to hit it hard, and there's plenty in UU that 2hko without a Psychic/Flying move.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 217-256 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 211-249 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is the list of mons in B+ and up that 2hko with rocks up. All of this assumes that it only comes in on rocks, it's at full when it does so, and that it's the given Smogon defensive spread. Simple chip damage, an extra layer of spikes, EVs pulled from bulk and invested in speed, Z-Moves, all of these factors break the illusion that MVenu is unkillable.

Addendum: No MVenu should have less than 136 Speed EVs if it's expecting to hit Scizor with HP Fire

1. Calm Mind Chandelure
2. Hex Chandelure
3. Specs Chandelure
4. Specs Kyurem
5. Sub Roost Kyurem
6. Specs Hydreigon
7. Roost + LO/Z Hydreigon
8. Salazzle, especially corrosion
9. Beedrill Mega
10. Pain Split Nihilego
11. Z Power Gem Nihilego / Z Sludge Wave Nihilego
12. Blissey
13. Taunt Gengar
14. Recycle Muk
15. Snorlax
16. Rest Aggron
17. Kommo-o
18. Stakataka
19. SD Heracross
20. Venomoth

I thought the "MVenu only dies to Psychic and Flying moves" point died a few days ago.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Despite a current record of 21-0, I doubt I’ll have time to finish going for reqs due to the terrible signal I have on my family trip rn (I tried playing one game and timed out Turn 4). Regardless, I wanted to give my two cents on why I think Mega Venusaur should not stay in the tier.

Mega Venusaur is a huge annoyance when teambuilding. On paper, fully invested 122 Special Attack with base 80/123/120 bulk is insane. Giga Drain + HP Fire + Sludge Bomb isn’t easy to switch into - only 3 “usable” mons in Crobat, Kommo-O, and Reuniclus can switch in risk-free, while other softer checks like Latias, Bronzong, Chandelure, Gengar, Togekiss, etc.. are all prone to being Pursuit trapped (which is not hard whatsoever to fit on a team) and/or poisoned. That’s only 2 spots taken up on a team which already greatly hinders your opponent’s counterplay.

That is my problem with Venusaur. I’ve been building more than ever these past couple of weeks, and it’s been an absolute nightmare. It was challenging enough to build a team with adequate countermeasures to Scizor, Latias, and stall, but now, I also have to account for a Pokemon that can hit the vast majority of the tier super effectively, possesses reliably recovery alongside 80/123/120 bulk, and arguably only has 3-4 hard counters. Then, when I think I’ve built just the right team to handle all of the aforementioned threats, I notice that I get swept late-game by Shark or some other type of HO. It’s not fun when I’m forced to run specific Pokemon like Kommo-O or Crobat to counter a single Pokemon because running other soft checks like Togekiss, Latias, or Chandelure leaves me prone to being poisoned, Pursuit trapped, or whatever it may be the moment I don’t pressure it perfectly in game. Quite frankly, it’s not fun - and no, I’m not being lazy, because I have over 50 builds ever since Diancie left - more than I built for my teammates / myself during UUPL - some of which I immediately scrap when I notice they lack counterplay to something like stall.

Now on to some arguments that I think are quite weak in support of Venusaur staying in the tier:

“Mega Venusaur prevents people from mindlessly spamming VoltTurn.”

—> I really don’t understand how people are using this as an argument of why Venusaur should stay. Sure, Venusaur can easily 1v1 Manectric and creep Scizor, but it doesn’t block VoltTurn and fitting a Z Latias or anything else that can take advantage of Venusaur on the switch (thus preventing you from having to actually switch into it and risk poison) is really easy. In fact, the team I’ve had the most success with in the current meta is a Manectric + Scizor + Z Latias team, and I’d actually be inclined to argue that VoltTurn has gotten better. I’ve watched hundreds of ladder games, and the amount of Venusaur teams utilizing a recipe of Venusaur + Pursuit + Steel is absurd (think Venusaur + Empoleon + Krookodile). Usually, the lone Ground-type of the team is Krookodile, which can’t switch into Manectric’s coverage whatsoever, resulting in Manectric abusing this core pretty easily. I’m actually inclined to say that Venusaur leaving will be better at preventing VoltTurn, as Amoonguss and Hippo, two good soft checks to VoltTurn which aren’t used as often due to Venusaur’s presence, will probably rise in usage again.

“Balance has the tools to be good again.”

—> What? Sure, Venusaur completely transformed balance into arguably (imo) the safest and best playstyle atm, but we literally just lost Gliscor and Serperior (two Pokemon capable of being a huge nuisance to balance if used correctly) and gained back Amoonguss, a phenomenal tool for balance due to Spore + Regenerator. Being an avid balance user myself, I believe balance will be just fine with Amoonguss back in the tier and Gliscor/Serperior gone, and I think it’s a little too early to think that balance is mainly good because of Venusaur when the tier has had no time to even adapt to the other rises/drops.

“Chip damage wears it down easily.”

—> Sandstorm is not common because Venusaur usage has scared people away from using Hippo from what I’ve seen on ladder. Volt Switch damage is a bad argument because, as discussed before, any team relying on Venusaur to check VoltTurn can be easily abused. Scald damage and/or burn (30%, not guaranteed) is potentially caused by Water-types that Venusaur threatens out, and it can easily gain most of this HP back by clicking Giga Drain. Packing a Defog / Rapid Spin user to clear hazards and prevent residual damage only requires one team slot. Lastly, Venusaur rarely, if ever, uses up all of Synthesis PP - not once in all my 21 games on ladder did I run out of Synthesis PP. Therefore, I don’t really see how this argument is strong.

Oh yeah, and it also gets Sleep Powder to cripple anything that tries to switch in, making its checks/counters easier to take advantage of, and no one seems to take this move into account on ladder from my experience.

There has definitely been some interesting discussion in this thread and I’ve enjoyed reading the arguments from both sides. However, Venusaur’s unhealthy constraint on teambuilding due to a lack of multiple reliable counters will 100% cause me to vote BAN if I have the ability to finish my reqs run.

 

[B R A I N L I C K E R]

I Will Also Be Voting BAN For Mega-Venusaur.

everyone about who is pro ban has echoed my points. VenuMega places too much restrictions on the building of the metagame teams. it is uncompetitive, centralising to the meta and I hope to see it banished to the depths of the underused borderline tier.

Beginning, Venusaur is an stellar defensive waller that can deal with many threats in Underused. Thanks to Bulk, typing and Movepool, you can Beat Many Threats For The Exception Of Maybe Duoblade and Crobat, which means that you only need to check many threats.

 

[Sacri']

dont have the time nor the motivation to actually argue about this suspect, just wanted to point out that claiming that venu answers dont hinder its effectiveness because they are countered by venus mates is slightly ridiculous. that can be said for like every a rank mon so i dont get why this was brought up in the first place. also, i'm confused as to why balance being good again is a bad thing when it was mediocre throughout the gen, having diversity in terms of playstyles is something we should be satisfied w/ if anything. offensive/bulky offensive teams having to adapt slightly isn't something we should be afraid of either,
when something as defensively potent as venusaur drops, offensive teams have to adapt but i fail to see how trying out stuff like z extra raikou is such a big deal when it already was a popular option back when guss was around. the dynamic of a metagame slightly shifting due to a drop isn't unheard of and has never been synonymous with unhealthiness or overcentralization.

 

[Kwiat]

Mega Venusaur is great for the tier, it breaks Blissey/Alo mix.

 

[g to the b]

I feel like I'd regret if I didn't put my own opinions out here. This isn't going to be a massive wall of text, as that's not my style. I prefer to get to the point. So, here's the reasons why I want to ban Mega Venusaur.

About the arguments presented in this thread so far: a staggeringly and disappointingly large portion of the no ban arguments i've seen (note: not the good ones, like hogg mcmeghan etc.) seem to revolve around Mega Venusaur being not broken on its own, and therefore not banworthy. I agree that it's not broken, there's no arguing that. However, something not being broken does not mean that it isn't banworthy; there are more qualifications for something to be banworthy than it having no defensive/offensive counterplay. Mega Venusaur is a perfect example of that. Mega Venusaur not being broken should absolutely not be your sole reason to vote no ban.

Despite Mega Venusaur not being broken, I fully believe this Pokemon is extremely unhealthy for the tier, specifically for tier versatility. Mega Venusaur is, in my opinion, making this meta extremely narrow in scope from what I've seen on my reqs run; balance is the absolute most dominant archetype right now because Mega Venusaur exists, and the vast majority of teams I've seen have been venu/empo balance, venu/pursuit trapper balance, empoleon/kommo-o balance, venu/moltres balance, crobat bulky offense, kommo-o bulky offense, or some other variant of the same nature. Needless to say, this is not the sign of a versatile or healthy tier. It is entirely possible that I was merely unlucky with what I faced in my run, but this does not change my opinion, as it's based on what I've seen. It's also extremely taxing to build against Mega Venusaur without using one of these listed team styles as well, which is why I gave up and just stole teams from friends for this suspect. (I'm not saying I'm a good builder, or anything, so please do not take my opinion on this matter as raw fact.) Say what you want about how "the tier will adapt", but like vivalospride and Accelgor said, I'm not voting based on a potential future. I'm voting based on how it is right here, right now.

It's worth noting that without Mega Venusaur, balance will still be viable. We have Amoonguss and other balance staples like Mega Aggron to bolster the playstyle. Sure, it won't be the most dominant playstyle by far with Mega Venusaur gone, but if a Pokemon bolsters an entire playstyle from "decent" to "by far the best" singlehandedly, that Pokemon is not healthy and should not stay in the tier, in my opinion.

I think the reason why a lot of no ban posts have argued against the concept of venu being broken is because that is the position of a lot of the ban posts on here. If we agree that venu isn't inherently broken, Then why should it be banned? If a mon isn't broken then there is no reason to ban it. "Unhealthy" to me feels more like a cop out when you can't prove that something is inherently ban worthy. Yes mons can be unhealthy to the point of being broken, but if they are then we call them broken and not "unhealthy". Also I'd disagree that balance being great is mostly because of venu. Balance was great right before amoongus rose as well. Let's also not mention common threats for balance such as Serp and Sd gliscor have now left the tier, Making balance a much better play style. When rotom-w was here voltturn was the dominant play style. Did that make washtom broken? Let's also mention how your experience of what you see doesn't affect reality. I've seen HOs and stalls while getting reqs and neither play style really seems to have gotten significantly worse. Also you don't need mvenu on every team not to lose to it. Nor do you need crobat or kommo-o. Also experiences are always subjective and aren't a reliable method of telling what the meta is or isn't. This also goes to your experience building as I haven't had issues building teams that don't lose to mvenu.

Also yes a mon having defensive or offensive counterplay should not be the only reason to not ban. But a common trait with mons that are legitimately broken is that they have extremely limited counterplay, and they can beat said counterplay by running unorthodox sets or moves. Let's compare venu to the mons on BL that were suspected and banned and see if venu is nearly as restraining, versatile or centralizing as any of them.

Hide

Alakazam was banned because of the sheer unpredictability it had. Zams 2 main sets were sash counter and lorb, Both of which beat the answers to the other set reliably. Lorb beats stall builds and beats special walls commonly used to beat the sash set, as the sash set beats most if not all usual answers to psychic types that special walls cant beat. Sash counter allowed it to score kos on the likes of scizor, krook and alomuk while also being a great revenge killer. This made counterplay to it extremely limited as do to magic guard, it is impossible to really know what set the zam is until your counterplay to it loses by guessing the wrong set. This puts extreme pressure on building as you essentially needed 2 answers to it or else you lost if you guessed the wrong set

Mega Latias is another fat bl mon. Unlike mvenu though mlati is much faster, has reliable recovery in roost, is immune to spikes and tspikes, and has a much wider array of moves to mix and match. Combine that with its insane bulk and reliable setup move in calm mind with its speed, and mlatias was very capable of walling entire teams as many of the things that stood to kill it such as scizor and mbee, couldn't come in safely for the fear of mega latias's coverage. It's wide movepool allows it to beat answers that might beat certain sets as well. Tbolt stops empoleon, reflect type stops alomuk as well as allowing it to avoid potential toxics, hp fire stops scizor, ect. This made mlatias extremely centralizing and essentially forced toxic on multiple mons on offense as well as forcing alomuk just to stop it from just walling many offenses, beating common checks such as scizor w hp fire, and just sweeping.

Buzzwole is another fat one however buzz is the definition of centralizing. It has insane coverage which allows it to beat up on common switchins. Eq for doublade, stone edge for crobat, ice punch for gliscor, pjab for sylveon, ect. It also had the option of just running a boosting set to power through traditional checks to it such as phys def hippo. It's also capable of running z moves, letting it just break through some resists to its moves such as fairies w something like z stone edge. This isn't even mentioning how it walls nearly every physical attacker in the tier. its insane bulk, ability to setup, and versatility basically meant its only real counter was another buzzwole. Stalls ran a buzz of their own just to not lose to opposing ones due to how extremely versatile and powerful it is. When the only real answer to a mon is itself then its no wonder this thing is bl now.

Weavile is on paper not that broken, however in practice weavile (especially at the time) was one of the most straining mons for offenses. For starters it boasts an incredible offensive typing, 120 attack and 125 speed. It had a pursuit that wasn't weakened due to being forced to run scarf like krook. This allowed it to easily force 50/50s on psychic types and due to its good power, it could threaten to ohko or 2hko even bulky psychic types such as slowbro and reuniclus(needed band for slowbro) This also isn't mentioning how it could swap out a move for coverage to beat common answers to it. Low kick beats coballion, maggron and mlix while pjab beats primarina and max def sylveon. This isn't even mentioning how insanely easy it is to chip down common checks to it such as klefki and pert as both can only really come in once or twice. Also at the time voltturn was the dominant playstyle which allowed weavile to simply pivot in off a voltturn and proceed to either trap something, 2hko a swap or chip it so you can 2hko later. This isn't even mentioning weaviles sd set, which could beat even the fatter counters to it such as alo and restalk cune. Weavile was definitely restraining as it forced options such as max def scizor just for offense to have ways of not being forced to sack mons to it.

Jirachi was banned due to it's z happy hour set, which allowed it to essentially hax its way past its counterplay and due to jirachis bulk and typing, revenge killing it was essentially only possible with scarf infernape and even then it didnt kill without some chip. Jirachi also could mix and match overage to deal with whatever you wanted it to. Zen beats bulky waters such as tenta, mantine and cune, Drain punch beats empoleon and lets you recover health back, fire punch beats scizor, eball/grass knot beats quagsire and pert, and not to mention anything that could tank hits could simply just be flinched down due to serene grace iron head. It's counterplay was limited and the few there was could be beaten with coverage or just sheer luck

Conkeldurr benefited hugely from the burn changes, as now it takes only 6% every turn in exchange for a 1.5 boost in power. This change allows conk to freely run the flame orb without being limited by the harsh recoil it'd take last gen. Combine that with a base 140 attack, priority, the ability to setup with bulk up, and near unresisted coverage in drain punch, facade and knock off, and it's easy to see how this mon put fear into both stalls and offenses alike, as its good bulk allowed it to take on many things common on offense such as scizor and infernape, and kill them or use then to set up bulk ups, and its priority ensures that revenging it is impossible unless you resist its priority.

Loom Is fairly recent but after amoongus left looms counterplay was extremely prone to losing to one of its plethora of sets. Spore essentially invalidated any non grass type attempting to wall loom, meaning many mon started running safety goggles, and even then looms spore could still essentially take one mon out of the game. From then its just what loom wants to beat. Latias loses to rock tomb w rocks up, crobat is also beaten by rock tomb, vileplume was beaten with sd toxic orb, bulky sd scizor lost to band(also lost to spore sd sets if it wasn't running safety goggles), Loom had no hard counters. Not only did it not have any counters, it also had the potential to remove mons from the game with spore combined with the fact that it was a bitch to switch in on.

Azumarill is more of the same stuff, it's an incredible wallbreaker that became broken after amoongus left. It's cb set allows it to rip holes in balance/stall teams while its good defensive typing allows it to still be used as a pivot vs offense to pick up kills. Its BD set is an incredible late game cleaner that can also punch holes even unboosted thanks to azus massive attack with huge power. And finally its trapper set, essentially nullifies most counterplay commonly run for azu as it allows you to almost always take standard azu switchins such as slowbro and alo and trap them, effectively eliminating them from the game. It also boasts sap sipper which adds an immunity to azus already great defensive typing, allowing it to take advantage of the many teams that ran serp to deal with waters.

Xurkitree was immensely powerful, boasting a base 173 spa as well as great coverage for an electric type. Its access to energy ball and hp ice allowed it to break down builds that relied on any ground type to beat electrics. It's raw power could also be supplemented with tail glow which, combined with either hypnosis or substitute, allowed it to essentially 6-0 stall. Stalls and balances became forced to run mlix to deal with it and even then after coming in once mlix was ohkoed by a +3 eball. This isnt to mention how well it did in veil, coupled with z hypnosis, allowed it to clean up vs offenses and tank draco meteors from the likes of scarf hydra and scarf lati. Its bulk, while bad, did allow it to tank those said hits even without veil and hits from all scarfers except for scarf krookodile. Not even maeros and gliscors eqs could ohko xurk from full 100% of the time. Dragons that walled standard sets lost to the odd dazzling gleam if it ran that.

You should notice a trend. These mons generally lack hard counters, lack real counter play and the few they have they are easily capable of beating it by running different moves or sets. These mons ACTUALLY strain building due to the insane amounts of counter play needed to prevent them from either punching holes or just simply winning the game flat out. Mvenu is like none of these. It doesn't have the speed, move pool or bulk( its only slightly more physically bulky) of mlati, It doesn't have the sheer amount of versatility combined with the power and bulk of buzzwole, and it doesn't have the raw power of conkeldurr. It has hard counters that it struggles to break through regardless of what set it runs (bat, kommo-o with taunt or sd) And even if it chooses to run sets such as curse amnesia or swords dance, you just add to the list of things it gets hard countered and loses to. I know that saying just because it isn't as good as the BL mons right now doesn't mean it isn't ban worthy, however venu doesn't even have a better ban argument then something like latias for instance. Latias has no true counters (blissey loses to calm mind psyshock or scarf trick, steels lose to z thunder and mlix loses to the rare z water), puts immense pressure on your team to have counter play for it, for example a pursuit user + a steel/fairy, is fast and has dozens of options that make it incredibly versatile. But I don't hear anyone saying ban latias because people acknowledge that it has counter play that can be reasonably fit onto a team. Mvenu as well has counter play that can be reasonably fit onto teams, as none of its counters were ever particularly bad even without it while other suggestions such as corrosion salazzle aren't needed to be able to beat it. Tiers ban mons because they are broken, not because they are unhealthy. If a mon is unhealthy to the point of being broken, then it is broken and you argue that it is. If you can't prove why it is broken and just resort to calling it things like "unhealthy" that really don't mean anything, then it shouldn't be banned.

 

[Chandell]

A point that struck me from the post above is that we don’t ban things because they are unhealthy, only if they’re broken. That must be the reason that UU is such an unhealthy tier, second to only OU. Why is it unhealthy? A topic I tried to explain earlier but I wish to emphasize now. Threat saturation. When the amount of top tier threats becomes too large,teams always have glaring weaknesses to a certain Pokémon or more.It is RNG when you face hp grass moltres which is the one thing your team can’t take. Or stall shows up when you click that button.It is impossible to build against threats and beat stall simultaneously consistently. Steel for Latias.Fairy for other Dragons, better hope it’s not BD soundproof Kommo-O.Ground for Mane and Aero. Random obscure threats come in here,such as Shark,NP infernape,the birds,terrakion, lucario, but worst of all stall. In these final three “free” slots you have to beat AloBlissSire+annoying things like doubled,malt,muk,crobat. Why are people so worked up about Venusaur? They don’t want those few slots further obstructed by yet another threat. Venu is no more restricting than mane. It’s just addition that’s throwing people off.

 

[Hogg]

Out with spotty internet and a bit tipsy atm but for everyone claiming that teams are just so boring and similar in this meta, I've played probably about a hundred and fifty games with a variety of teams of all different sorts, and have not been finding teambuilding stale at all. For example, the following six teams all had anywhere from decent to spectacular success for me this suspect, five of which were all specifically built in the post-shifts meta:

Haven't built any stall in the current meta but I've seen other people doing just fine with it. Balance, BO, even team archetypes like VoltTurn and HO that specifically tend to struggle most with Venu around are still absolutely feasible. (And hey, for the person who wants to ban Venu because they like spamming Crawdaunt - don't fret! I promise Crawdaunt still remains super fun, even if it's not as good now as it was pre-shifts.) Some people have expressed a struggle with teambuilding in the current meta and I just flat out have not experienced that at all. Sure, the majority of my old teams aren't great in this meta. That's what happens when we lose one S-rank threat and gain another. But I like teambuilding, and I haven't found things stale at all in the current meta.

 

[Adaam]

I might sound like I am flip flopping with this post, but the no ban side has brought up excellent points. I am currently unsure as to what I’ll vote, but I just wanna point out how great this thread has been with its discussion. As of now I think I might vote no ban on Mega Venusaur, after careful consideration of all the arguments posted and despite being one of the vocal pro-ban posters. It’s amazing no doubt but after laddering some more, I wonder how I’d feel if Scizor or Latias had dropped this shift and f I’d be as against them as I am with Venusaur. I haven’t fully made up my mind yet, but the purpose of this post is to let people know that it isn’t a waste of time to share your thoughts here.

 

[Sir Slaking]

Just got reqs, probably leaning towards no ban. Mega Venusaur is great due its ability to maintain offensive pressure while also acting as a defensive wall. However, in most games Venusaur has to pick between either doing damage or healing up, it can't do both. While Mega Venusaur is an effective wall in the tier if it's at full HP, if its health drops below say 80% it suddenly becomes much worse at doing it's job. Since it doesn't have access to leftovers, it's also heavily susceptible to passive damage and it only takes one or two smart doubles into a check or counter to get the chip needed to open it up for the rest of your team to deal with. Given how often Venusaur likes to be used as a pivot or blanket sponge I find that getting that little bit of chip is usually not that difficult.

It's also not a mon that's terribly difficult to switch into, unless it's running something like Leech Seed or Sleep Power. However, even then that means it's missing another important move like Sludge Bomb or Giga Drain, and so you should be able to deal with it from there.

It's a great mon, but in general I feel like arguments about it supposed lack of counterplay just don't hold up in reality.