np: USUM UU Stage 8.1 - Garden (Mega Venusaur banned)

[McMeghan]

Adaam
The point of g to the b's list of calcs was demonstrating how a vast majority of the tier forces MVenu to heal ASAP because of the amount of damages it takes upon switchin in. The Venu has to chose between staying healthy or running low if it doesn't heal. Healing means you have a free switch into your check/counter. I don't think at any point was this list posted to show that these Pokemons can 1v1 Venu or switch on it.

Regarding your other point about passive damages, keep in mind that if your opponent has to Defog to get rid of the hazards that will take Venusaur down, that means your own checks/counters (especially flying types) are not taking entry damages when having to deal with Venu. Also, this is a detail, but the only weather XY OU had that saw actual play was Tyranitar's Sand Stream, which is similar to Hippo's as it's coming from a Pokemon Venusaur beats 1v1.

Honestly, I can't post a whole list on "how to passively deal with Venusaur", because that'd require too much time and details. It's all about building a team that can win the hazard war and pressuring Venusaur as a result (or anything else for that matter). That being said, I actually laddered with a Balance that mostly dealt with Venusaur passively, so I looked into my replays to see if there was one against a Venusaur, and I happened to have one. You can watch it here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-782685674
My answers to Venusaur with this team were hazards pressure, Tentacruel/Empoleon/Chesnaught as soft checks and Snorlax as "counter". I have faced a bunch of Venusaur while laddering with this team all the way, and while it was a threat that kept it on my toes, I never found it to be overbearing. You "just" have to play and build cleverly, which IMO is a good thing to have in the tier. I don't mean to flatter myself here, but I just want to point out that Venusaur has drawbacks that can be exploted with skill and outplay. For comparaison, I wouldn't say the same about a defensive Pokemon with Regenerator who can heal for free and for which chip damages dont matter.

I also wanna say that I agree with Chandell's post and the fact that MVenu can centralize UU in a healthy way by offering a blank check to the many offensive threats roaming in the tier while having enough counterplays at disposal.

 

[brodudeguy1]

I’m seeing 2 patterns here. Pro ban arguments ignore how hard it is to switch your venusaur check in, especially when they expect it. Anti ban arguments ignore the fact that it gets chipped by rocks and many more things than psychic / flying stab can 2hko it. I see the anti ban flaw as a bigger flaw, so I am therefore pro ban.

 

[RedxThree]

I’m seeing 2 patterns here. Pro ban arguments ignore how hard it is to switch your venusaur check in, especially when they expect it. Anti ban arguments ignore the fact that it gets chipped by rocks and many more things than psychic / flying stab can 2hko it. I see the anti ban flaw as a bigger flaw, so I am therefore pro ban.

Your paragraph is confusing. I think you mixed up your pro and anti maybe? Pro-ban argues that there aren't enough checks that can switch into Venu, that's literally the opposite of ignoring it. Anti-ban argues that chip damage keeps it from being broken...again, literally the opposite of ignoring it. And idk where that leaves your opinion haha

 

[OrangeGuru]

1-3: chipped incredibly easily, vulnerable to pursuit, rocks weakness
4-5: i used kyurem as an mvenu check, it's much less viable in practice. sludge does more to kyurem than beam does back and you'll always lose that war with the poison chance being at 30%
6-7: again, switching into sludge and then winning that war is incredibly difficult because of the poison chance and venusaur's access to recovery.
8: valid counter, and i'm only saying this because of the pearl set with corrosion, which is fire btw
9: valid, but the rocks and hp fire weakness make it an incredibly shaky switch-in
10: only exists on an earlier stall build of yours, the definition of niche
11: loses the 1v1
12: valid, but setup fodder for growth and viability is largely limited to stall
13: valid, but again very niche and loses to pursuit
14: niche
15: valid
16: unless you're curse resttalk, this set becomes incredibly passive, aggron needs 2/3 of toxic, fire punch, and earthquake to avoid being setup fodder
17: valid
18: valid on stall i suppose, but offensive variants have one switch-in before they lose: 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 127-151 (38.9 - 46.3%)
19: 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
20: niche and 2hkoed 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 174-206 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3 of these are completely valid
4 are valid with HEAVY caveats
the rest are niche or, in my opinion, are soft to medium checks that can easily be outplayed. i don't like how this list is so small and so shaky; i can guarantee even a scizor or a latias list would be far longer and more concrete.

Why do you consider so many of these niche? Not trying to sound condescending or rude, just honestly curious and hoping to see more elaboration. Maybe in the UU of a few months ago, yes these were niche, but the tier will adapt to Venusaur if it survives the suspect vote regardless; there will be adaptations especially since if it does survive because it will be S rank. How come some of these aren't just the tier adjusting with new pokemon and/or sets? I know in instances where you are using an otherwise unviable pokemon to counter the questionably broken/suspected pokemon, that's a sign of it truly being broken, but I fail to see how adapting to use Taunt Gengar (a good move already on the ghost) is "very niche"

 

[xXCelioXx]

Hello guys! I'm here to confirm myself being UUVS xXCelioXx and, as everyone that got reqs to vote this thread (here are my reqs: https://prnt.sc/kcwbyf), i already have an opinion about this suspect.


Because of its versatility of sets, Venusaur is an extremely difficult mon to deal with, it can run a SD set, wich defeats pokemon that in theory would be perfect counters for this monster, like Aggron Mega (if you do not have sleep talk, rest, curse and heavy slam, it still suffers to Venusaur's Growth + HP fire set), belly drum Snorlax (to lure and counter Snorlax, curse is even better), Nihilego, Chandelure Pain Split/CM, Muk-A with recycle, Blissey, Gengar w/ Taunt (it takes too much from EQ), Stakataka, Stall, etc. Besides its offensive utility, it still ocuppies the positon of the best wall of the tier (Syntesis Venusaur Mega>Rest Aggron Mega), also needing very little support to wall entire teams. In adition, in the current situation of the tier, if your team doesn't have at least 2 checks for this pokemon, it's almost instantaneous defeat, something that limits INSANELY the teambuilding of the UnderUsed tier. It is for these reasons that I am voting for ban Venusaur Mega.

 

[g to the b]

1-3: chipped incredibly easily, vulnerable to pursuit, rocks weakness
4-5: i used kyurem as an mvenu check, it's much less viable in practice. sludge does more to kyurem than beam does back and you'll always lose that war with the poison chance being at 30%
6-7: again, switching into sludge and then winning that war is incredibly difficult because of the poison chance and venusaur's access to recovery.
8: valid counter, and i'm only saying this because of the pearl set with corrosion, which is fire btw
9: valid, but the rocks and hp fire weakness make it an incredibly shaky switch-in
10: only exists on an earlier stall build of yours, the definition of niche
11: loses the 1v1
12: valid, but setup fodder for growth and viability is largely limited to stall
13: valid, but again very niche and loses to pursuit
14: niche
15: valid
16: unless you're curse resttalk, this set becomes incredibly passive, aggron needs 2/3 of toxic, fire punch, and earthquake to avoid being setup fodder
17: valid
18: valid on stall i suppose, but offensive variants have one switch-in before they lose: 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 127-151 (38.9 - 46.3%)
19: 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
20: niche and 2hkoed 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 174-206 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3 of these are completely valid
4 are valid with HEAVY caveats
the rest are niche or, in my opinion, are soft to medium checks that can easily be outplayed. i don't like how this list is so small and so shaky; i can guarantee even a scizor or a latias list would be far longer and more concrete.

I think you misunderstand what the point of pifs list is. It is to show mons that beat venu 1 v 1. And as such force it out. I dont know if this is hard for you to grasp, but if venu cant ohko you back and you 2hko it, venu is forced out. Lets also mention how as I've stated before way over half of the meta is capable of not letting it in. Also once again mons isn't all 1v1. Also losing to pursuit isnt an argument for venus check/counter not being good. That's like saying that togekiss has no counters as the steels that beat it are trapped with magnet pull. Also pursuiting is a mindgame and sets such as sub chand and z latias are capable of winning those mindgames relatively easily. Also yes venu can hit some of those on the switch. And?. He's talking about mons that beat it 1 v 1. You don't need hard counters to every single mon in the metagame on your team to not lose to it. You need counterplay and the counterplay can be one of these paired w another sludge/giga resist. Also lets not act like the majority of that list is faster than mvenu and 2hkoes it before it can 2hko back. While the slower ones (blissey, rest maggron, muk) hard counter certain sets.

I have noticed two flaws in the no-ban posts: they tend to overrate Mega Venusaur's counterplay, and they fail to see how powerful it is with minimal support. In this post I'll attempt to refute some of the main no-ban posts' arguments.




Freeroamer replied to this already, but the vast majority of these Pokémon lose to Mega Venusaur 1v1. If you hard switch Mega Venusaur into Terrakion, then yes, you will lose. Nobody is saying it counters everything. The point is once Mega Venusaur is brought in (which is stupid easy to do), you NEED a Flying- or Psychic-type STAB to force it out. To be more specific, let's assume Mega Venusaur is in the field, and I will analyze your calcs one-by-one (ignoring the boosted hits because nobody is saying it's a counter to +2 Fighting-types).

• Mega Beedrill can burn a couple Synthesis with Poison Jab, but cannot U-Turn without taking consistent SR damage.
• CB Terrakion cannot trade with Mega Venusaur as it is crippled by Giga Drain, and it recovers 40% HP. A clear loss for Terrakion user.
• Primarina is outsped and killed by Sludge Bomb.
• Scarf Hydreigon is walled, as your calc shows. Being forced to Synthesis is not the end of the world if Hydreigon ends up at -2.
• Rotom-H is walled by Mega Venusaur.
• LO Hydreigon can pressure it but cannot switch in.
• Nihilego is decent, but it is LO stalled after taking chip damage.
• Gengar needs Taunt to break Mega Venusaur, otherwise it falls to Leech Seed sets. I will admit it is a good check to it after using it, though.
• Scarf Chandelure is walled without CM or Taunt and obviously isn't switching in with SR up.
• Starmie and Mega Sharpedo both lose the trade since again, Giga Drain recovers most of the damage you deal.
• Unboosted Infernape is walled. Choice sets are easily exploited after scouting the move via Synthesis (and you take recoil from Flare Blitz). NP sets need to burn a turn boosting in which they take heavy Sludge Bomb damage.
• Magneton needs to click Flash Cannon and is easily exploited after Mega Venusaur scouts with Synthesis. It is also outsped and 2HKOd by HP Fire.
• Heracross wins the trade but nothing defensively checks it besides Mega Slowbro.
• Doublade and Lucario both need a boost to avoid being walled, and they both cannot SD on it due to HP Fire (as your own calcs show).
• Staka can break it.
• Crawdaunt and Scizor are both outsped and OHKOd.
• Mega Aerodactyl needs to be completely healthy since Wing Attack does pitiful damage and Mega Venusaur can Giga Drain it.

It's also important to note that the vast majority of the Pokémon you mentioned do not switch in at all, so once Mega Venusaur is in you are essentially saying to sack something and then trade (at best) with a wallbreaker to beat it. If this is the counterplay, then it is broken.




I'm skeptical at the idea of Mega Aggron + Tentacruel + Wish being a sufficient way to check Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur hard walls both these Pokémon and beats the common Wish users in Alomomola and Sylveon. I guess Blissey beats Mega Venusaur, but using those three pigeonhole you into a full stall build. I tried using Tenta + Bronzong + Sylveon as a passive Venusaur check, and every time it came out on top since you have to force it out, find a turn to Wish, and then hope the Pokémon your opponent has doesn't finish off the remaining 40-50% Bronzong/Tenta has left. Do you have replays of this strategy keeping it in check?

Also, which Steel-types beat Mega Venusaur? Empoleon, Mega Aggron, Klefki, bulky Scizor, and Bronzong all lose to it. Yes, they can set hazards, but every Venusaur team has Defog. In particular, Empoleon is probably on every team I've seen with Mega Venusaur, meaning Klefki can't even set three layers.




I keep seeing this but nobody ever gives concrete examples. How can you passively check Mega Venusaur? Sure burn annoys it, but as CBU pointed out, it has 5 teammates, and it is very often paired with Heal Bell. No player is going to let you spam Scald on it 10 times, get burned, and then do nothing about it. No player is going to let you get 3 layers of Spikes with Klefki for free. What is Mega Venusaur's most common teammate? Empoleon, making Klefki useless in the matchup.

All-in-all, people need to take into account how overbearing it can be with just minimal support. It's unfair to assume that it's taking 50 Scalds a game, is perpetually burned, Sand is up, and hazards are up. Oh and stop using the XY OU metagame in arguments. It actually had weather setters besides Hippowdon to punish Synthesis and burns did 12%.

I mentioned steels because some like coba or keys can use mvenu to setup, forcing it to hp fire which allows something like specs kyurem or moltres to easily come in. Bronzong is also capable of beating non leech seed sets by psywave spamming.

Also dude did you read the post? As mcmeghan said these calcs show how hard in practice it is to bring venu in. I never stated that those were all counters nor did I state that they win the 1 v 1. All i stated is if venu comes in it is forced to drain momentum while they go to something that can win the 1 v 1 with it. Heres my rebuttal to the claimed mons that lose to mvenu.

Hide

1.Rotom h wins if it tries to come in w z overheat into regular which I showed in there. But if you don't believe me believe this

-2 252 SpA Rotom-Heat Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 116-140 (35 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 156-186 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat over 2 turns vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 312-372 (94.2 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 236-278 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This essentially means that venu must keep spamming synthesis to win. The 1 v 1 can go either way as if the rotom has wisp or split or twave it can win either by waiting for wisp to put you inrange of z as you spam synthesis, getting lucky w the z move, or splitting you into range of the z move.
Not to mention venu cannot come in on any rotom-h. So it certainly isn't "walled"


2.Mbee 2hkoes with poison jab if u try to keep synthesis stalling it(which you have to as hp fire does not kill and if you dont you are left at below half meaning that now most mons in the tier can keep you out).

252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 164-194 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It essentially forces either synthesis spam, hp fire on the switch(which can be predicted by the opponent, Or forcing you out. Causing you to lose momentum and letting venu take more chip from hazards if they are up.

3. Many venus are actually only creeping scizor. Not to mention i was being extremely generous with my calcs. Venu cant run max spa, creep sciz(or timid prim) and run max hp or 56 sdef. In reality venu can barely come in.

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 248-292 (77.5 - 91.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 272-320 (85 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's with creep for positive nature base 60s.

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 248-292 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 272-320 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is for just creeped for scizor

Now I never stated that primarina beats mvenu 1 v 1. It cannot come in safely however as offensive variants risk getting ohkoed w rocks up and variants not creeped for timid prim simply get out sped by timid prim and 2hkoed. While sludge isnt a guaranteed ohko(50% chance w/o rocks)

4. only showed scarf hydra as it always forces you to synthesis. Even if it dark pulses next time if u dont synthesis you're 2hkoed. And that's on my extremely generous calc. In reality it plays out like this

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 266-315 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 266-315 (83.1 - 98.4%)

Yes venu can punish hydra for coming in. But why is this a bad thing? I never argued hydra to be a counter, only that venu cant come in on it which gives venu less oppurtunites to actually have an impact on the game. Specs, Lorb and Zmove all beat it 1 v 1 as well. Yes scarf loses the 1v1, but saying its walled is absurd as with u turn it can simply chip mvenu into range of dual dracos or dark pulse assuming it is that spread.

5. First of all what? Nihi flat out 2hkoes it while venu only has 8pp of synthesis. If it's running the spread i used in my first calc then it can't reliably do enough back to nihi to prevent it from eventually losing the mu. Also for more offensive sets they just get flat out 2hkoed regardless of rolls or rocks.
252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 172-203 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This isnt even taking into acount pain split or z rock or poison nihi which are both viable sets which easily win this mu.

6. Gengar with either specs or life orb just 2hkoes. I think I showed this in the calc list while mvenu is incapable of doing anything significant back with that spread. The only gengar set that doesn't win 1 v 1 vs all common mvenu sets is scarf but even then venu can't come in as sludge can 2hko with rocks. Hex sets and z ghost sets always win as if you are for some reason running z ghost w/o taunt, it is forced to keep using synthesis to avoid getting killed by shadow ball or sludge into the z move.

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 133-157 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 223-264 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 173-204 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 183-216 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

7. 1 who uses scarf chand anymore besides viv lmao. 2 once again my spread was generous as no offensive venu runs that much bulk. Even with it venu is forced to synthesis every turn while the chand user can just switch out to another mon that forces venu out. Lastly as pif said chands stallbreaking and specs sets are way more common and those easily destroy mvenu both 1 v 1 and as a switchin.

8. Starmie and Mshark threaten to flat out ohko offensive mvenu anyway(Starmie needs psychic, mshark needs adamant). If you doubt take a look.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psychic vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 273-322 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 242-283 (73.1 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mvenu cannot come in at all and if it is chipped w 2 sr switchins prior to the engagement(which isnt hard to do) It loses to both variants.
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 270-318 (81.5 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 246-290 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
These mons are also commonly found on HO. So them having spike support to get venu at 76% or the player just being able to chip venu that range basically guarantees that venu loses. Maybe in a vacuum 1 v 1 where everythings at full they lose. But in reality over the course of a game a mon with no passive recovery, is slow, and has checks that force it out isn't hard to put into kill range of these 2.

9. Once again you assume mons is all 1 v 1 where venu just somehow gets in magically on nothing and proceeds to 1 v 1 the whole team. I never said ape was a good check just that venu cant come in on any set. Also scarf does lose 1 v 1 but venu can't come in on it or it risks being 2hkoed or ape u turning out, chipping mvenu and getting a strong breaker in. Even if it does come down to 1 v 1, if venu isn't at full and is at something like 60 is percent, Ape will eventually win due to blaze.

252 Atk Blaze Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 212-252 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Cb ape flat out 2hkoes mvenu making synthesis stall impossible. Not to mention if blaze activates its a chance to ohko

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 212-252 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Blaze Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 318-374 (96 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(yes i know most run iron fist but even then mvenu takes more from band blitz than it heals.)

Nasty plot doesn't lose as if venu sludges as it sets up ape is put into blaze range and venu is ohkoed. If we are talking in a practical setting than ape doesn't let it in as it threatens a 2hko with fire blast and an ohko if boosted with rocks vs offensive mvenu.

10. What even is ur point with magneton. Also venu does not outspeed lmao. No one is running timid venu with that much speed. Also magneton 2hkoes w flash cannon or volts out of it? This is like saying that swampert must click eq to beat coba therefore pert is a bad coba check.

11. Both lucario variants, physical and special, only need rocks to persuade mvenu from not coming in.

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 134-160 (40.4 - 48.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 142-169 (42.9 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

While if setup they can kill back with rocks. Yes lorb lucario sets do lose the 1 v 1(Z steel lucario does beat venu 1 v 1 however), this once again wasn't my argument. My argument for most of these wasn't that they win 1 v 1 but rather that they don't let venu come in and can win either w chip(usually rocks) or setup. This applies to doublade as doublade can win if mvenu comes in on it provided rocks are up(iron head variants don't need rocks)

+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 186-220 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 108-127 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

12. I agree with you but once again this wasn't my reason for showing these calcs. It was to show that mvenu isn't as hard to pressure as you make it out to be. These mons that mvenu is supposed to check force it to heal every time it comes in on them. Which allows the opponent to garner momentum by going to a breaker that does force it out. Also i calc'd jolly scizor as well which does outspeed common mvenu creeps. and can kill at +2 with bug bite.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 320-378 (96.6 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

13. Did you even go through the calcs? Maero only didnt easily 2hko max hp max def bold. Maero easily 2hkoed the max hp spread i used while it does even more to actual more common spreads of offensive venu

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Wing Attack vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 218-260 (65.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If that's what you call pitiful damage than sure. Also hone claws straight up beats every venu set 1 v 1.

14. Terrakion yes does lose 1 v 1 if its not sd z move. Once again you're shifting goalposts. The calcs were to show that it is hard for mvenu to safely and reliably come in vs a majority of the meta, NOT that the majority of the meta beats it 1 v 1. Sd z rock can win the 1 v 1 if it is at full but really who cares? Venu cannot come in on terrak and terrak cannot come in on venu.

As you can see most of your points against this aren't being substantiated and you are assuming I'm saying that all these mons beat mvenu 1 v 1. I'm saying these mons don't let it come in which gives venu less oppurtunites to actually impact the game. And many of them punish venu heavily if it does try to come in. Let's also mention that mons is 6 v 6 and just as how venu has teammates to help wear down its checks and counters, So does the opponent in helping to wear down, pivot around force out and eventually beat mvenu. As I said in my other post, You don't need hard counters for every mon in the meta on your team. You don't need doublade or palossand(lol) on your team to not get 6-0ed by terrak. Similarly you do not need reuniclus, kommo-o and crobat on your team to beat mega venusaur. You know what does beat venu 1 v 1? crocune. Does that make it an answer to venu? No. Similarly just because venu wins the 1 v 1 doesn't mean that a mon can't pivot into it or beat it if it tries to come in.

 

[Morsel]

Hello. I have achieved reqs, and after playing against Venusaur and reading arguments posted here I am going to vote no ban. Pif, g to the B, and McMeghan's excellent posts summarizes most of my opinion. I'm posting to debunk some of the pro-ban arguments -- specifically, that "you need to have at least 2 mons to deal with venu" and that it's "centralizing" because of its versatility.

Venusaur's ability to beat certain checks by running specific moves/sets is nothing new in UU. This is a trait that is common among other Pokemon in this tier. For example, traditional Latias checks (bulky steels) die to +1 Z-Thunder from CM sets; A-Muk dies to +1 Dragonium after some chip. Obviously Latias isn't broken -- it's a top tier mon that requires you to scout its moveset. The same is true with venu, and this isn't anything new or broken. You can't mindlessly go into your checks, and using that as an argument to ban Venu is silly. Even then, Venu usually needs Sludge Bomb+HP Fire+recovery anyways, so it's versatility is overstated.

The second point I want to address is the argument that Venu is broken because you need multiple forms of counterplay. Again, this is nothing new. Any good team will have multiple ways of handling S and A+ tier mons (i.e., a pursuit user+fairy/steel for latias). In fact, I'm happy that Venu will force these haphazardly prepared offence volt-turn teams to adjust for its presence. Furthermore, balance will get a much needed tool to make it a more effective playstyle.

I won't touch on other points such as it's vulnerability to chip damage (hazards, scald burns, pivoting with volt/u-turn out) because Pif and McMeghan described it excellently.

My final point isn't about Venu, but rather some feedback for the suspect process. Compared to laddering on a suspect ladder, using 80% GXE with 40 games on the regular ladder takes you up to 1550-1600. My issue with this is that you don't experience much high ladder play, especially since your first ~15 games or so are against inexperienced players on the low ladder. By comparison, the time spent in "low ladder" on a suspect ladder feels a lot shorter. If we are going to use the regular ladder for reqs, then I would raise the GXE requirement to 82-83% for future suspects. This will lesson the impact of low ladder wins and make it so that people who get reqs have more experience playing in the upper ladder and using/facing the suspected Pokemon in a higher skill environment.

Thank you for reading.

 

[smogsicle]

As you can see most of your points against this aren't being substantiated and you are assuming I'm saying that all these mons beat mvenu 1 v 1. I'm saying these mons don't let it come in which gives venu less oppurtunites to actually impact the game. And many of them punish venu heavily if it does try to come in. Let's also mention that mons is 6 v 6 and just as how venu has teammates to help wear down its checks and counters, So does the opponent in helping to wear down, pivot around force out and eventually beat mvenu. As I said in my other post, You don't need hard counters for every mon in the meta on your team. You don't need doublade or palossand(lol) on your team to not get 6-0ed by terrak. Similarly you do not need reuniclus, kommo-o and crobat on your team to beat mega venusaur. You know what does beat venu 1 v 1? crocune. Does that make it an answer to venu? No. Similarly just because venu wins the 1 v 1 doesn't mean that a mon can't pivot into it or beat it if it tries to come in.

No offense dude, but it's obvious Venusaur isn't going to look so bulky when you post calcs of a Venusaur with near minimum bulk. I could very well be wrong on this, but I was under the impression the majority of Venusaurs run a lot of bulk, and that offensive variants are in the minority.

I also don't think the "chip damage" argument is particularly strong for saying Venu isn't broken, given one of its STABs heals it, and it can commonly run Leech Seed. Yes, you can chip Venusaur effectively with intelligent doubles and predictions, but Venusaur gets punished for it a hell of a lot less than most Pokemon in this tier. I also think Venusaur's vulnerability to hazards is overstated, given how much easier it is to defog in this gen. Venusaur has five teammates after all, and Venusaur's supposed weakness to things like burns and hazards can be dealt with through them.

 

[DiscoDucky]

No offense dude, but it's obvious Venusaur isn't going to look so bulky when you post calcs of a Venusaur with near minimum bulk. I could very well be wrong on this, but I was under the impression the majority of Venusaurs run a lot of bulk, and that offensive variants are in the minority.

I also don't think the "chip damage" argument is particularly strong for saying Venu isn't broken, given one of its STABs heals it, and it can commonly run Leech Seed. Yes, you can chip Venusaur effectively with intelligent doubles and predictions, but Venusaur gets punished for it a hell of a lot less than most Pokemon in this tier. I also think Venusaur's vulnerability to hazards is overstated, given how much easier it is to defog in this gen. Venusaur has five teammates after all, and Venusaur's supposed weakness to things like burns and hazards can be dealt with through them.

120 HP isn't "minimum bulk". It's also the standard spread, so his calcs are valid. Stuff like 252 HP / 252 Def (what you're looking for) are largely unrealistic since Venu wants the power and the speed to be at its most effective. Essentially, you were wrong on this, especially when you try to call someone out on it.

I think the chip damage statement isn't all that overstated, in all honesty. Giga Drain and a weather-conditional Synthesis are anything far from consistent healing. The times where a Giga Drain-resistant Pokemon switches in, Venu recovers less than what Leftovers would heal it for. Also, the prevalence of Hippowdon, and by extension Sand, also cuts down Venusaur's longevity whenever Sand is up. Even if it ups its healing consistency by opting for Leech Seed over Giga Drain, it loses valuable offensive coverage. You also neglect the increased viability of VoltTurn and Spikes Offense in the tier with Gliscor's departure and Mamoswine's return.

To echo McMeghan's post, saying that Defog is more prevalent as an argument shows a myopic view of Venu without consideration for its teammates (same with the status issue). Having Rocks down with Venusaur at 70% mostly necessitates some form of Hazard removal to come in soon to remove for it in order for it to continue to take hits. This forces the Defoggers in the tier, none of which take reduced damage from SR that isn't Spikes-weak, will:
1) Have to take chip damage (an issue exacerbated by SR weakness of many of the tier's defoggers)
2) Suck momentum

The same can be said for the teams that run Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to help Mega Venusaur. Sucking offensive momentum just to heal one Pokemon is never cost-effective economically, especially since those status-clearing moves have 8 PP. Tack this on with the fact that a number of UU Pokemon can still do heavy damage to the Offensive Tank variant regardless of the move's super-effectiveness, and it becomes quite clear that Mega Venusaur isn't as resilient the pro-ban arguments make it out to be. Also, to clarify, Burn and Hazards weakness aren't "supposed" weaknesses. Both of these, when afflicted onto Venusaur, actively limits its ability to do its job of an Offensive pivot. If these were "supposed" weaknesses, then why make the argument that five other teammates with Heal Bell and Hazard Removal can alleviate this "supposed" weakness?

Also, I don't know why Adaam liked such a low quality post.

 

[KM]

i'm going to make a larger post soon (probably), but I want to address the "easy to chip" argument that everyone has been pretty much leaving uncontested because i think it's really off base.

the reason M-Venu feels like it's "vulnerable to chip damage" is precisely because it's so ubiquitous as a switch-in to most of the tier. compared to many other pokemon, M-Venu is going to be spending a lot MORE time in the field and take a lot more hits than most other balance / offensive mons. what you're interpreting as "vulnerable to chip damage" due to low synthesis PP could just as easily (and probably more accurately given the nature of pokemon as a 6v6 game) be interpreted as "absorbs several hits for the rest of the team".

"scald burns" and "volt switch chip damage" are not effective checks for a mon (much less one that has 1.5 forms of reliable recovery) -- they're side effects of the fact that venusaur is the tier's most reliable switchin on scald and volt switch users.

moreover, the fact that synthesis' low PP is often cited as something that "in practice makes Venusaur not broken" is equally as revealing -- it means that Venusaur is bulky and resilient enough to often go through all 8 syntheses in a game. Venusaur using all syntheses and dying means that it's taken as much as 500% damage for the rest of the team -- that's not a weakness, that's a testament to its durability and utility in a 6v6 matchup.

 

[DiscoDucky]

i'm going to make a larger post soon (probably), but I want to address the "easy to chip" argument that everyone has been pretty much leaving uncontested because i think it's really off base.

the reason M-Venu feels like it's "vulnerable to chip damage" is precisely because it's so ubiquitous as a switch-in to most of the tier. compared to many other pokemon, M-Venu is going to be spending a lot MORE time in the field and take a lot more hits than most other balance / offensive mons. what you're interpreting as "vulnerable to chip damage" due to low synthesis PP could just as easily (and probably more accurately given the nature of pokemon as a 6v6 game) be interpreted as "absorbs several hits for the rest of the team".

"scald burns" and "volt switch chip damage" are not effective checks for a mon (much less one that has 1.5 forms of reliable recovery) -- they're side effects of the fact that venusaur is the tier's most reliable switchin on scald and volt switch users.

moreover, the fact that synthesis' low PP is often cited as something that "in practice makes Venusaur not broken" is equally as revealing -- it means that Venusaur is bulky and resilient enough to often go through all 8 syntheses in a game. Venusaur using all syntheses and dying means that it's taken as much as 500% damage for the rest of the team -- that's not a weakness, that's a testament to its durability and utility in a 6v6 matchup.

I mean, Amoonguss does a job similar to Venusaur by switching in to hits and taking chip damage along the way. It can also "absorb several hits for the rest of team" while not having to be hindered by Hazards and Burn due to Regenerator and Black Sludge, respectively. Honestly, what you wrote describes a lot of pivots in the tier.

Also, Scald Burn and VoltTurn chip damage are still relevant issues that Venusaur suffers the effects of more than Pokemon that do a similar role to it. If it wasn't so big of an issue, the OU analysis wouldn't make such a big mention on its reliability as a switch-in due to its constant need to recover.

Synthesis undeniably increases its longevity, but it's its over-reliance on the ability to stay healthy and take more hits is what limits it. Take, for example, Blissey. Blissey's Leftovers allows it to take more hits over time, turning a 16% damage from a Special attack into a 10% damage hit. This reduction in damage allows Blissey to not rely as heavily on Soft-boiled. If Blissey lost Leftovers due to Knock Off, then we can clearly see its ability to continuously switch into threats in the long run decrease as it has to Softboiled more and take more from Hazards Damage. This isn't also factoring in that Weather like Sand is actually something that needs to be considered when arguing about Synthesis' reliability. Even though Sand makes up 7% of teams in the metagame, according to the June stats, it's a weather effect that actively cuts down on Mega Venusaur's ability to tank hits.

Personally, what I find that makes Venusaur strong is that it can switch into hits and pressure teams offensively with Max EVs off of a base 122 SpAtk stat that can easily force switches on the other team. If you wanted a Defensive pivot, then use Amoonguss (even without Thick Fat).

I'll just close with a point made in the OU and Ubers analyses about Mega Venusaur. You may want to argue that it's in a different tier, so threats are different; however, Mega Venusaur's core weaknesses are still inherent, regardless of which tier it goes to.

Mega Venusaur's main form of reliable recovery, Synthesis, does have drawbacks. While it provides more recovery under Primal Groudon's Desolate Land, against Primal Kyogre, a Pokemon Mega Venusaur is supposed to check, it recovers less. Synthesis also only has 8 PP, which can be detrimental if Mega Venusaur has been pressured by powerful attacks and entry hazards throughout the match. " - Ubers analysis, Gen. 7

Mega Venusaur is easily worn down by Spikes, Scald burns, and even just powerful attacks, so it finds itself using Synthesis a lot as opposed to attacking, which results in momentum loss and passivity. Lastly, Synthesis only has 8 PP, which often forces Mega Venusaur to heal itself more sparingly to compensate.

Furthermore, as a Mega Evolution, Mega Venusaur lacks Leftovers recovery, and, as a Pokemon with only Synthesis for reliable recovery, it is heavily hurt by sand and rain as well as entry hazards, thus making up a Pokemon very easily worn down.

People have already noted how easily Venusaur is chipped down for over two generations. For you to ignore all that and then jerk the blue dinosaur off more is just really sad.

 

[Freeroamer]

I mean you’re not wrong about the core weaknesses but the methods of applying them are different by tier. For example comparing the weather setters, for every iteration of OU it’s been viable in Tyranitar has seen huge usage in OU, while Hippowdon has always been more of a solid pick than a top metagame choice. OU have also had the opportunity of running Hippowdon and Politoed themselves and more recently the rare Ninetails-Alola while for USM UU it’s always been Hippo that’s viable and nothing else. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to pick up some stuff written about it from other tiers but I think it needs to be applied to what we actually have in this tier rather than being regurgitated word for word.

Anyway this post was more to talk about the reqs required to vote in this suspect test. Fully appreciate this was somewhat of a test run using the main UU ladder and there were definitely positives to this, being able to ladder from day 1 with a view towards getting reqs being the main one, as usually you have to wait minimum of like 3 days for a ladder to somewhat establish itself so you actually have something to climb up and build up a GXE. However I have to express concern at the lack of quality games I had to play to achieve reqs in this test. My own experience was in using a pretty poor team and going 33-7 with 83.5% GXE, I started 25-1 having probably played a maximum of 3 games where the opponent presented some kind of challenge and brought a competitively viable team. At this point I tilted due to a couple of hax incidents and the team’s flaws getting shown up, going 8-6 in the mid ladder. I never once broke 1550 and was it not for the fact that I would be building in the tier and testing for open and for my own curiosity, I don’t think I would feel qualified to vote on my laddering experience as all in all, I played a maximum of 10 competitive games in this suspect. Fortunately I was using Venusaur so at least they all included the suspect, but for people laddering without it that could also present another issue. Unfortunately I’m not sure what the answer to this is without adding on a lot more games, as raising a GXE requirement doesn’t necessarily fix this unless it’s a very high one, as plenty of people could get an 82 GXE without particularly stretching themselves if they’re laddering on the regular ladder as opposed to a suspect one, because you have a much longer period of easy games at the start. I did consider whether maybe a minimum ELO requirement along with the other requirements might be a solution but on further thought I’m not too sure. Sorry I couldn’t offer any great proposals but yeah those are my thoughts on the laddering side of this.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I mean you’re not wrong about the core weaknesses but the methods of applying them are different by tier. For example comparing the weather setters, for every iteration of OU it’s been viable in Tyranitar has seen huge usage in OU, while Hippowdon has always been more of a solid pick than a top metagame choice. OU have also had the opportunity of running Hippowdon and Politoed themselves and more recently the rare Ninetails-Alola while for USM UU it’s always been Hippo that’s viable and nothing else. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to pick up some stuff written about it from other tiers but I think it needs to be applied to what we actually have in this tier rather than being regurgitated word for word.

I mean, if you read any of the quotes, you'll see that the points I picked out are all common and are not metagame-specific and can be applied to this tier.

 

[ayevon]

I've gotten reqs and read over thread, and rather than make some long post to try deceive you into thinking I know what I'm talking about, I'll just say that I mostly agree with what Chandell and McM have said. In my experience laddering, it wasn't too difficult to find teams that either a) made it hard for venusaur to thrive by consistently pressuring it or b) keep it bay with reliable switch ins such as crobat, tentacruel, reuni, etc. Like those two have said, I don't think a great, splashable wall is such a bad thing for the tier. Vensuaur will obviously be extremely viable but from my time on the ladder, I'd find hard to believe it would become any more "centralizing" than the other upper level threats in the tier. I'll probably vote no ban.

also crobat is good as hell boy

 

[pokemonisfun]

Can we agree to never bring up win loss ratios as an indicator for anything suspect related?

The ladder has thousands of UU players. Win loss ratio doesn't take into account if you're playing a 11 year old using an in-game team or 5 UU Open Winners in a row.

Anyone who knows my posting style knows I do my best to be serious and fair minded in these threads, so please understand I'm not exaggerating when I say I believe this metric is almost completely useless. I do not believe going 40-0 means you played better than someone who went 30-10.

I'm for a minimalist voting requirement. It helps our community be more inclusive and as long as we have a council that determines what can be suspected in the first place, there is no real danger of a disastrous decision (no matter how much you are for or against Venusaur, you can hardly say the tier will be ruined if it goes one way or another).

Even for people who literally say:

In all honesty, I just want to spam Crawdaunt whenever I play UU and I don't want to worry about the mon the entire game wondering if it has speed or not. I got so impatient to vote this monster out of here I just gambled and still had a clean 80.

X) I used Crawdaunt the entire time but, truthfully, you're correct since I only really only played the tier because the reqs were easy and I like using Crawdaunt

Well their opinion is as valid is ours and as I said, since the council decides what is suspected in the first place, their vote is not going to mess up the tier one way or another.

 

[Freeroamer]

Can we agree to never bring up win loss ratios as an indicator for anything suspect related?

The ladder has thousands of UU players. Win loss ratio doesn't take into account if you're playing a 11 year old using an in-game team or 5 UU Open Winners in a row.

Anyone who knows my posting style knows I do my best to be serious and fair minded in these threads, so please understand I'm not exaggerating when I say I believe this metric is almost completely useless. I do not believe going 40-0 means you played better than someone who went 30-10.

I'm for a minimalist voting requirement. It helps our community be more inclusive and as long as we have a council that determines what can be suspected in the first place, there is no real danger of a disastrous decision (no matter how much you are for or against Venusaur, you can hardly say the tier will be ruined if it goes one way or another).

Even for people who literally say:



Well their opinion is as valid is ours and as I said, since the council decides what is suspected in the first place, their vote is not going to mess up the tier one way or another.

I assume this is directed at my post despite the lack of quote so I want to make it clearer, I brought up those w-l more to show the fact that I was playing less competitive opponents but here’s my thoughts without them. In the 40 games I played on the ladder, I played at max 10 games against competent opponents. I don’t believe this is sufficient for people to make a proper assessment on whether a pokemon should stay in the tier or not, particularly when those 10 games may not have included the suspect whatsoever. I also said in my post that I didn’t think raising the GXE would remedy the issue because ultimately it does nothing to make sure you play higher calibre games within a 40 game laddering session, it just means you have to win more often. I have no issue with people from outside the community doing suspects to vote, a community that doesn’t grow is a community that dies and if they’ve achieved the requirements then of course they have as much right to vote. I just think it’s a flaw of the suspect system that ultimately unless you are prepared to go and play a lot more outside of just laddering for the suspect requirements, there’s a very good chance you will end up with a very small sample size of good games from which to base an opinion of the suspect.

 

[g to the b]

No offense dude, but it's obvious Venusaur isn't going to look so bulky when you post calcs of a Venusaur with near minimum bulk. I could very well be wrong on this, but I was under the impression the majority of Venusaurs run a lot of bulk, and that offensive variants are in the minority.

I also don't think the "chip damage" argument is particularly strong for saying Venu isn't broken, given one of its STABs heals it, and it can commonly run Leech Seed. Yes, you can chip Venusaur effectively with intelligent doubles and predictions, but Venusaur gets punished for it a hell of a lot less than most Pokemon in this tier. I also think Venusaur's vulnerability to hazards is overstated, given how much easier it is to defog in this gen. Venusaur has five teammates after all, and Venusaur's supposed weakness to things like burns and hazards can be dealt with through them.

Dude I literally calc'd it with max hp and 56 sdef and max hp max def in my earlier post that adaam was responding too. Most of the 2hkoes were the same except scarf hydra. Also the stab that heals it is the most exploitable stab for its checks to come in on. That is why it usually will sludge bomb anyway as giga isn't healing much vs most of those bar maybe nihilego. And yes its easy to defog but its also easy to pressure common hazard removers into not being able to defog, either by using a rocker that beats common defoggers or just with offensive pressure. And yes venu has 5 teammates to help with its weaknesses. And? Everything you build around has a team built to help with its weaknesses. How is venu special in this regard? If I run altaria+magneton and beat a team that relies on scizor to beat mega altaria is it altaria thats broken for being able to be paired with a mon that beats a counter, or is it the fault of the builder for not having other counterplay for a top threat in the meta?

 

[Sinkyr]

I got the reqs in 40 games.
Confirming me as UUVS Skr
I plan on voting NO BAN because i think that mega venu is not broken, venu has good bulk and special attack, and it's one of the best mons of the tier, but i think that uu meta will adapt soon and will be really interesting.

 

[Samususer4]

Hello I got the reqs.
Confirming me as UUVS Samususer
I think it is too easy to build with mega venu. And I think he will centralize the meta. So I think I will vote ban.

 

[CantoakaChris]

I got the reqs in 40 games.

Hello I got the reqs.

Congrats on getting Reqs guys. It's awesome to see people care about UUs future.

As Hogg mentioned:

Hey, folks, while I appreciate the discussion, there’s no need to post your reqs here (unless you want to). There will still be a voting ID thread going up later in the suspect, and you’ll still be required to ID there even if you’ve already done so here.

So don't miss out on that Threat later on. Have a nice day!

 

[Hyokina]

I don't think I have to rephrase the various reasons here. Although I have to mention that it's way to easy to punish almost any check as a switch-in: Sleep Powder. Against quite a few team there is no reason not to lead with M-Venusaur and something like lead Swampert/Mamoswine are forced to switch out. Out of the 40 matches played I put like 4-5 Latias to sleep first turn. Lovely.
Therefore and for all the other reasons: Voting BAN.

 

[Hogg]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-stage-8-1-voting-identification-thread.3639965/

Please visit the above link to identify for reqs, even if you already displayed your alt here. Only people who identify using the above thread will be permitted to vote.

 

[Euphonos]

Finally got the requirements for this Suspect Test after several months of lurking and trying.

ON MEGA VENUSAUR
Admittedly, I acknowledge this Pokemon having great defensive prowess through its natural bulk and ability, along with a Special Attack stat that shouldn't be messed around. However, contrary to what most people claim as the most splashable Pokemon in the tier, I find Mega Venusaur the actual opposite since there are several Mega Pokemon worth using with the likes of Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, Mega Altaria, and Mega Sharpedo, all of which are getting much traction in the tier before Mega Venusaur came in.

I have used Mega Venusaur a handful of times on a handful of teams using the same alt UUVS Seeker; sadly, it didn't deliver for one key reason: the natural bulk the Pokemon has is not enough to stomach some strong neutral hits upon switch-in, therefore it works better as a tank rather than a pivot in that case (which Amoonguss serves a more pivot role thanks to Regenerator). Now, as a player with an anti-metagame mindset, I find more forms of counterplay to generic Mega Venusaur sets without using my oldest team in existence (which contains Kommo-o and Moltres). While some anti-ban people have mentioned forms of counterplay with the likes of Extrasensory Raikou, among others, I have used Salazzle as another capable Pokemon who can Toxic Mega Venusaur "brainlessly" by virtue of Corrosion.

With all that in mind, I'm leaning towards letting Mega Venusaur stay in the tier.

ON SUSPECT REQUIREMENTS
As for the Suspect Requirements, I really appreciated the new format of dealing with suspect tests and it's worth using in the future, though I find it somehow easy to pull it off especially with the time frame. Therefore, I guess I would propose a higher GXE in 82 or 83 with a minimum of 60 to 70 games would be more reasonable. I've observed that there's someone who had 87% GXE in around 40 games, which is really astounding, but it should be really sustained in the long run hence the raise of the minimum number of games. Other than that, I really hope the format is worth using in dealing with future suspects, and I thank all the people around in this community for investing a lot in this endeavor.

 

[CiuVayn]

I'm CiuVayn, I performed the 40 games as UUVS CiuVayn. I vote against the ban of mega venusaur
proof : https://prnt.sc/kdm43u

 

[Sage]

I'm CiuVayn, I performed the 40 games as UUVS CiuVayn. I vote against the ban of mega venusaur
proof : https://prnt.sc/kdm43u

Nice job on reqs, use the thread Hogg posted in post #97 to identify. There'll be a seperate thread later to vote.