Got my reqs this morning and I plan on voting Ban. Venu places far too much of a strain in on teambuilding and has clearly centralized the meta around itself to an unhealthy extent, even this soon after it’s drop. I’m not going to write a text wall because I don’t have the time at the moment but I largely agree with the pro-ban points made by Roamer, Adaam and Yeezy. One thing I’d like to add is the offensive pressure applied by the max sp atk modest sets, which accentuate Venusaur’s great coverage and allow it to pressure soft checks like Latias and Moltres much better. 252+ also OHKOs offensive Scizor variants and can kill more defensively invested ones after rocks, as well as allowing ‘counters’ like Kommo-o and Metagross fewer switches with half decent prediction. I’m of the opinion that this mon is just too much for UU, and while I love the fact it’s making Reuni semi-relevant again I’m going to be voting Ban.
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np: USUM UU Stage 8.1 - Garden (Mega Venusaur banned)
- Thread starter Hogg
- Start date
- Status
Got my reqs this morning and I plan on voting Ban. Venu places far too much of a strain in on teambuilding and has clearly centralized the meta around itself to an unhealthy extent, even this soon after it’s drop. I’m not going to write a text wall because I don’t have the time at the moment but I largely agree with the pro-ban points made by Roamer, Adaam and Yeezy. One thing I’d like to add is the offensive pressure applied by the max sp atk modest sets, which accentuate Venusaur’s great coverage and allow it to pressure soft checks like Latias and Moltres much better. 252+ also OHKOs offensive Scizor variants and can kill more defensively invested ones after rocks, as well as allowing ‘counters’ like Kommo-o and Metagross fewer switches with half decent prediction. I’m of the opinion that this mon is just too much for UU, and while I love the fact it’s making Reuni semi-relevant again I’m going to be voting Ban.
Got my Reqs 2 days ago (the team export is right above it, feel free to use it), and as almost everyone, I'm 100% pro Ban. Venusaur-mega can fit in many playstyle and fulfill many roles in one slot: mixed wall, win condition/late game sweeper, and even stallbreaker (the growth set can 6-0 stall if played well). Even if it has sereval counter plays like kommo-o and crobat, it has overcentralized the metagame, which is never a good thing. As a newcomer in the UU format, I was able to get a very decent ladder winrate, only because Venusaur-Mega just swept 37 times in a row. With a good wish pass support, it can even be played without the weather dependant move synthesis, which is the only venusaur's drawdack in theory.
Got reqs (first time ever), not the best record but had a great start (about 25-2) followed by a couple of seriously rocky patches.
I'll be voting ban on Venusaur. I don't have much to add to what others have said, but I think its combination of incredible bulk and above average offensive presence is too much for the tier. Its list of reliable checks is extremely small and I don't think that's healthy.
I've gotten reqs twice now, and I'll be voting do not ban. I don't have much to add outside of pokeisfun's excellent analysis. Venu's offensive presence is being grossly overrated. It's good, but even taking Sludge Bomb's poison chance into account, it's still not actually that impressive. And while it wins a lot of 1v1s, it also struggles to switch into many of the strong attackers of UU.
As for it being limiting in teambuilding, I'm finding the exact opposite. I've built five teams since MVenu dropped, all with a fairly large amount of variety, and I don't consider it any more constraining than, say, Latias or Gliscor was. Those teams have ranged from teams with really strong anti-Venu techs (such as one with Reuniclus and mixed def Chesnaught) to teams that on paper should struggle with Venu, but in practice rarely find any difficulty (such as a balance team where switchins like MAggron and Tentacruel combined with wish support provide more than enough defensive counterplay). Specially defensive Steels in general are a nightmare for Venu. You absolutely do not need to slap a Kommo-O or Taunt Crobat on every team just to keep from losing at preview.
Looking at the main team archetypes, balance and bulky offense probably straight up benefit from MVenu's drop, as it provides a powerful offensive pivot that punishes some common archetypes like VoltTurn. Stall rarely has an issue at all with the Synth + 3 attacks set, though boosting sets can be trouble thanks to Toxic immunity and the ability to punch through Quagsire. But it's nothing insurmountable, and stall can adjust fairly easily; most of the sets are punished by common Haze users, for instance. It also enjoys being able to use MVenu itself, so overall I'd consider it a wash. Offense requires the largest adjustments, and is probably the team archetype that will most commonly resort to 'mons like Kommo-O, Crobat or Reuniclus, but they can also just work on ensuring that Venu can't reliably switch in without taking a large enough chunk of damage that it's forced to Synth.
In general I've actually been enjoying the current suspect ladder quite a lot, and for all that people here are talking about how restricting MVenu is, I've probably seen more variety on the ladder recently than I have over the past couple of months. Yes, it's really, really good... but really good does not mean broken, and never has.
As for it being limiting in teambuilding, I'm finding the exact opposite. I've built five teams since MVenu dropped, all with a fairly large amount of variety, and I don't consider it any more constraining than, say, Latias or Gliscor was. Those teams have ranged from teams with really strong anti-Venu techs (such as one with Reuniclus and mixed def Chesnaught) to teams that on paper should struggle with Venu, but in practice rarely find any difficulty (such as a balance team where switchins like MAggron and Tentacruel combined with wish support provide more than enough defensive counterplay). Specially defensive Steels in general are a nightmare for Venu. You absolutely do not need to slap a Kommo-O or Taunt Crobat on every team just to keep from losing at preview.
Looking at the main team archetypes, balance and bulky offense probably straight up benefit from MVenu's drop, as it provides a powerful offensive pivot that punishes some common archetypes like VoltTurn. Stall rarely has an issue at all with the Synth + 3 attacks set, though boosting sets can be trouble thanks to Toxic immunity and the ability to punch through Quagsire. But it's nothing insurmountable, and stall can adjust fairly easily; most of the sets are punished by common Haze users, for instance. It also enjoys being able to use MVenu itself, so overall I'd consider it a wash. Offense requires the largest adjustments, and is probably the team archetype that will most commonly resort to 'mons like Kommo-O, Crobat or Reuniclus, but they can also just work on ensuring that Venu can't reliably switch in without taking a large enough chunk of damage that it's forced to Synth.
In general I've actually been enjoying the current suspect ladder quite a lot, and for all that people here are talking about how restricting MVenu is, I've probably seen more variety on the ladder recently than I have over the past couple of months. Yes, it's really, really good... but really good does not mean broken, and never has.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Finally got reqs for once as I usually promise myself I would so yay me. Anyways to expand on the previous post, I also will be voting No Ban on Mega Venusaur mainly as I fail to see how it warps the metagame around it to the degree of making it unhealthy. While it's impact on teambuilding can't be understated especially given how prominent certain unpopular mons such as Kommo-O and Crobat have become to check the green dinosaur, the fact that these checks still exist alongside many other common counter-measures such as Latias, Moltres, Corkscrew Crash Cobalion, and even stuff like SpD Stakataka makes me personally believe that MVenu has enough counterplay to stay in the tier.
The main issue I had with it primarily is really how splashable it is, being a staple (almost mandatory) pick on the majority of balance and bulky offensive teams, acting as one of the best defensive pivots that also hits deceptively hard even when uninvested when spamming moves such as Sludge Bomb. However, I think sets such as Curse + Amnesia and even other setup sets in general like Growth and SD have kinda been overhyped due to MVenu's low Speed in conjunction to common weaknesses which can be exploited by quite a number of mons I have mentioned previously.
As it stands, I definitely find Mega Venusaur to be a centralizing mon in the current metagame and is a threat that must be accounted for on every team of course (a threat I initially was in favor in banning). However, after utilizing and playing against it a bit more, I have come to the conclusion that it really isn't anything too overbearing to the point in warranting a ban. As Hogg stated, the metagame is quite enjoyable at the current moment contrary to popular belief, and I feel MVenu is a great contributor to that given how it brings to the forefront many previously uncommon threats!
Firstable, I did not plan to do the Suspect Test when it was announced because I don't have an opinion on Venusaur-Mega.
Before talking about our big boy, I just would like to highlight the fact that this reqs were easy af and even if I like this new type of suspect (by not having a fresh Suspect Ladder), I definitively think that we should increase the GXE needed (maybe 82% idk, I leave that to our UU Leader).
Why I think that Venusaur-Mega should stayed in UU :
Firstable, Venusaur-Mega is an amazing defensive sponge which can deal with a lot of threats in Underused. Thanks to its Bulk, typing and Movepool, it can checks pretty much everything in the tier except Crobat which means that you just need it to check a lot of threats.
Secondly, it has some pretty nice offensive statistics which allows it not to be passive (it can even acts as a pretty solid WinCon with its Growth Set). It has also allowed an evolution of the metagame and a rise of Balanced and Bulky Offense whereas this kind of team were pretty meh before that (because the UU has a lot of threats and it's tough for Balanced to check everything with just half of the team).
Why I think that Venusaur-Mega shouldn't stayed in UU :
I think that Venusaur-Mega lacks of solid answers to it and before people come to say that "Primarina / Haxorus / Heracross" lack of answers too, I will respond them that none of this threats has the Bulk of Venusaur-Mega, none of this threats has an effective way of recovery and none of this threats are that much easy to build around.
If we look closely at the VR (S to A- rank) which Pokemon can deal or threaten with Venusaur-Mega, it's a pretty short list tbh.. :
• Latias can force out Venusaur-Mega with Psychic / Psyshock but it needs to be careful because Venusaur-Mega is often paired with Pursuit users (Choice Band Scizor or Scarf Krook) which means it can't just click its Psychic STAB and need to weigh the pros and the cons (50/50).
• Hydreigon need to Specs / Work Up and rely on Flinch with Dark Pulse in order to 2HKO Venusaur-Mega.
• Togekiss has to Flinch because it's 2HKO / OHKO (after Stealth Rocks) by Sludge Bomb.
• Venusaur-Mega has to be weakened if Sharpedo-Mega want to OHKO it with Psychic Fangs
- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 270-318 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo-Mega: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
• Chandelure Sub CM can be a pain for Venusaur-Mega although it can't Switch on Venusaur-Mega (Leech Seed, Sludge Bomb which has a chance to poison or Earthquake even if it's rare)
• Crobat is the mighty counter to Venusaur-Mega, it doesn't give a shit about Venusaur-Mega but it has to pay attention to Stealth Rocks and Pursuit users.
• Moltres has the same problem than Crobat and it can't switch on Sludge Bomb..
• Pidgeot-Mega → same than Crobat / Moltres.
In summary, there isn't a lot of Pokemon which can threaten Venusaur-Mega while it being able to check the majority of the tier on is own. The fact that it's really easy to build around make it really really good at what is does but also very tricky to deal with since it has almost only the need of a Pursuit users to trap its checks / counters. The cherry on top ? It's unpredictable and it can adapt itself... Synthesis + 3 Attacks, Synthesis + Growth + 2 Attacks, Growth + 3 Attacks, defensive (physical, special or mixed..), it's amazing no matter what it does and I think that it's a little bit too much for the Underused. As much as I love it, I think it should be banned and belong to the UUBL.
TL;DR : I'm 55-45% toward ban 
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Since I don't have particularly much to add to the conversation, I'll just post what I've observed throughout this suspect and one of the shitty teams I used.
Here's what I've been seeing in literally >50% of the battles in this suspect test:
I think players will eventually grow out of this stage once they realize how good older shit like Mega Aero and Mega Shark still are (or if mega venu gets banned haha), but for now I'm content on counterteaming the hell out of those cores :)
Also here is this memeteam that I only highly recommend if you want to lower your gxe at least 5 points:
Special shoutouts to Kink for the Chandy set, it really screws over Scarf Krook and Muk Alola real good. Also CB stak is still terrifying and def boost > attack boost :)
Also a friendly reminder that Adaam 's mega houndoom lost to my defog scizor
Here's what I've been seeing in literally >50% of the battles in this suspect test:
I think players will eventually grow out of this stage once they realize how good older shit like Mega Aero and Mega Shark still are (or if mega venu gets banned haha), but for now I'm content on counterteaming the hell out of those cores :)
Also here is this memeteam that I only highly recommend if you want to lower your gxe at least 5 points:
Stakataka @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Superpower
Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Latias @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 80 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Fire Blast
- Protect
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 160 Def / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Superpower
Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Latias @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 80 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Fire Blast
- Protect
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 160 Def / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
Special shoutouts to Kink for the Chandy set, it really screws over Scarf Krook and Muk Alola real good. Also CB stak is still terrifying and def boost > attack boost :)
Also a friendly reminder that Adaam 's mega houndoom lost to my defog scizor
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this poke has been all in ou but this use is so down this says ? what this pokemon will do in ou?
anything this poke , dont have to be banned in uu, **no ban **
anything this poke , dont have to be banned in uu, **no ban **
Welp, going on reqs for a third time. I've already listed my thoughts on Venusaur, so here are some general meta notes:
- In addition to the obvious increases in viability of things like Kommo-O and Reuniclus, I'm finding that generally strong breakers like CB Terrakion and Flame Orb Heracross are really good in this meta. They were never not good, of course, but the amount of pressure they put on standard Venu balance is just fantastic.
- Shark Spikes is top tier again, and is probably the type of offense I've found most consistent in this meta.
- Tentacruel is surprisingly good as well. It pivots into 90% of Venusaur sets, and while it doesn't do much back, Liquid Ooze mostly keeps it from regaining health while you spin, set TSpikes and pivot out into something else. Give it Wish support and it can honestly check most Venus throughout the game.
- Speaking of decent spinners, despite the huge number of Krooks I've seen and its inability to break Venu, bulky Starmie is having a moment. Reflect Type is my fourth move of choice, making it way less vulnerable to trappers and letting you force out the HP Fire from Venu to pivot in something else.
- With Manectric dropping a bit in usefulness, Raikou is actually picking up a bit of steam. Still has a decent Speed tier and it doesn't take up a mega slot, plus it has the ability to punch through Venu with Extrasensory or Z-Hyper Beam.
- Similarly, I've been enjoying Beedrill a lot lately. My most recent set of reqs came off of a pre-shift Beedrill offense I stole from Roro, and it's still surprisingly punishing. The decreased usage of MAero definitely helps, and the fact that it's a VoltTurner that doesn't get fucked over by Venu is really nice.
- I haven't tested or seen it much, but I suspect Vincune is really good right now.
I got my reqs yesterday. First things first, I want to thank Sage for the team I used on the ladder to get my reqs, thank you very much Sage. I will vote No-Ban on M-Venu, I don't have much more to add than Pif and the others have already said, M-Venu is a very good mon and I believe it will bring more good than damage to UU.
Echoing Hogg's point about Spikes Shark offense, I've been messing around with it high ladder and it definitely messes up the Mega Venusaur-type balances that every is spamming right now, Shark is able to put incredible pressure on the Empoleon / Venusaur / Lati stuff that's extremely popular right now and capitalize on the switches that the breakers force these balance teams to make. Also shoutout Bob for getting me on the Mixed Kommo-o wave, thing is a monster and tears through these cores as well as finding many opportunities to get up rocks. Here's a replay showcasing the great matchup it has - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-783095687 sorry moute :P
During the suspect, I've seen only 5 M-Venusaur and he was predictable ...
All others arguments was said by Hogg and Pif.
I'll vote No-Ban.
All others arguments was said by Hogg and Pif.
I'll vote No-Ban.
Attachments
After reading this thread and playing on the ladder, I wanna take part of the discussion and go against some arguments I thought were bad while stating some thoughts about Venu and the tier. I will structure my post in hide tags so you don't feel forced to read a TL;DR and can focus on the parts that interest you.
At the end of the day, I'd like Venusaur to stay in the tier, if only to be revisited later. I think it will be a good asset to Balance and will make Offense (and even Stall) less braindead, which imo are good things to reward skill and clever gameplanning.
So one point that has often been brought up is that MVenu is centralizing and forcing people to run Pokemons like Crobat, Reuniclus or Kommo-o. Well obviously if a new and strong Pokemon becomes available, it's normal that it's gonna change the tier and I don't think this is necessarily wrong. I don't think you should ban something just because it changes the status-quo.
Is Venusaur centralizing? Probably in a way. Is it a Pokemon able to dish out uncontrollable amount of damages or wall everything under the sun once on the field? I am sure it isn't, and consequently, I don't think it will be centralizing in a unhealthy way (like a Landorus-I would be in OU for example).
Is Venusaur centralizing? Probably in a way. Is it a Pokemon able to dish out uncontrollable amount of damages or wall everything under the sun once on the field? I am sure it isn't, and consequently, I don't think it will be centralizing in a unhealthy way (like a Landorus-I would be in OU for example).
I've played a lot of XY OU when MVenu was a force there, and this Pokemon, while good, had clear drawbacks that made it manageable in many ways. I feel like those can be seen in SM UU. I'll elaborate on them in a second, but I wanna state that because of them, I do not think MVenu is brainless at all, and doesn't reward "brainless button clicking", like I've read here. The two main reasons IMO are: the lack of passive recovery and the fact that it takes full damage from all entry hazards. Just for those two reasons, Venusaur isn't brainless, because it can't always stay healthy and can be worn down through double switches alone (in addition to all the checks & counters at disposal of course). It's also crippled by Burn/Paralysis, which are things to take into account, especially when dealing with Balance. As a result, I think Balance have enough tools to not be overwhelmed by Venusaur, and once again, that is without talking about its checks & counters. You can completely check a Venusaur passively, on top of your Pokemons meant to deal with it in the first place. It's not like an Amoonguss which will heal for free and which doesn't care about chip damages.
I also encourage you to read PIF's post in this thread because he tackles this issue quite well.
I also encourage you to read PIF's post in this thread because he tackles this issue quite well.
On that subject, I don't understand why people keep bringing up that Moltres and Latias are not good checks because they can't really switch into Sludge Bomb... I mean, yeah ok? They maybe should not be considered as good checks to begin with? Nobody's forcing you to rely on those two to deal with Venusaur. That's why they're only "checks" to begin with. In the same order of idea, I don't see why it's bad that some lesser used Pokemons rise to prominence because they can be used to deal with Venusaur. If anything, it shows that the tier has the tools to deal with it. It's not like you're using completely useless Pokemons outside of beating Venu when you use stuff like Crobat/Reuni/Kommo-o.
Someone already stated it, but I think the playstyle that's gonna be affected the most by Venusaur is Offense. Venusaur tends to struggle in long-games IMO due to its relative weakness to hazards, reliance on a flawed recovery move and lack of either coverage or setup options. Offense will obviously have to incorporate specific ways to deal with Venu just because of its raw bulk and ability to hit back hard vs frail Pkmns.
However, I think this is for the best. I am a supporter of anything that deters random and poorly assembled offense to function. I do think that it's healthy for the tier that Offense builders need to come up with specific Pokemons/strategies/ideas to deal with something of Venusaur's caliber, rather than just putting offensive Pokemons together, adding an Azelf or whatever suicide rocker you prefer and then hoping for the best.
However, I think this is for the best. I am a supporter of anything that deters random and poorly assembled offense to function. I do think that it's healthy for the tier that Offense builders need to come up with specific Pokemons/strategies/ideas to deal with something of Venusaur's caliber, rather than just putting offensive Pokemons together, adding an Azelf or whatever suicide rocker you prefer and then hoping for the best.
Finally, I'd like to talk a bit about using Venusaur, rather than facing it. I think the set that will see the most amount of play at first is standard 3 atks/synthesis because it's pretty much self-sufficient, straight to the point and the tier is still trying to find the best ways/formulas to deal with Venu as a whole (especially vs this set). Whenever I talked about Venusaur before in this post, I had this exact set in mind.
Now, should Venu stays in the tier, I think this set will stay relatively good but not unbearable and people will eventually adapt to it. However, as it's often been stated already, Venusaur's only real weaknesses are Flying and Psychic. Those two types actually have to deal with some of the worst weaknesses to have in this game. Stealth Rocks for flying types and Pursuit for Psychic types. What I am getting at is that, I can see Venusaur becoming really hard to deal with the appropriate support, and able to outlast Balance and even Stall with the appropriate moveset & support. After all, Venusaur is pretty versatile support/setup wise, between Curse/Growth/Swords Dance or Knock Off/Leech Seed. With Venu in the tier, I wouldn't be surprised to see UU become a bit fatter and other Venusaur sets will begin to shine as a result, especially with its two main weaknesses being abusable in deathly ways.
Now, should Venu stays in the tier, I think this set will stay relatively good but not unbearable and people will eventually adapt to it. However, as it's often been stated already, Venusaur's only real weaknesses are Flying and Psychic. Those two types actually have to deal with some of the worst weaknesses to have in this game. Stealth Rocks for flying types and Pursuit for Psychic types. What I am getting at is that, I can see Venusaur becoming really hard to deal with the appropriate support, and able to outlast Balance and even Stall with the appropriate moveset & support. After all, Venusaur is pretty versatile support/setup wise, between Curse/Growth/Swords Dance or Knock Off/Leech Seed. With Venu in the tier, I wouldn't be surprised to see UU become a bit fatter and other Venusaur sets will begin to shine as a result, especially with its two main weaknesses being abusable in deathly ways.
At the end of the day, I'd like Venusaur to stay in the tier, if only to be revisited later. I think it will be a good asset to Balance and will make Offense (and even Stall) less braindead, which imo are good things to reward skill and clever gameplanning.
I think players with OU experience (especially dating back to XY) can vouch for Venu's bulk only being titanic on paper. It's a great mixed tank because it can take some strong hits as well as blanket check a lot of Water and Electric-types, but it's relatively easy to wear down thanks to its lack of passive recovery. Really, if you are glossing over this point you're totally missing Mega Venusaur's biggest weakness. Between entry hazards, VoltTurn, sandstorm from Hippo and Scald burns in a tier loaded with bulky Water-types, chip damage is as easy to generate in UU as any tier, and that chip damage is a constant nuisance for a mon that gets no Lefties and subpar healing options. Bulky offense and balance often don't have room for adequate support to compensate for every papercut Venu will take and those papercuts affect its ability to hard wall threats, while defensive teams are let down by Leech Seed's inconsistency and Synthesis's 8 PP petering out deep into games. It's not spammable and can't be played recklessly; Regenerator Amoonguss makes a better "sponge" in that regard.
Speaking of Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur may not be a slouch offensively, but it's a very limited mon as far as options. Grass/Poison is a weak offensive dual-STAB, and EQ and HP Fire have their own gaps in coverage against UU's Steel-types. Using Knock and Sleep Powder force you to forgo either a STAB or coverage, but regardless, Venu is not this defensive threat that you can tailor to do whatever you want. It's not versatile, so idk why I'm seeing that thrown around. It's a tank that requires some scouting to figure out what it can't touch. Mega Venu is good, but that doesn't mean that Safety Goggles Crobat and Lum Bulletproof Kommo-o need to become staples to accommodate Mega Venusaur's presence in UU. Do not ban.
Speaking of Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur may not be a slouch offensively, but it's a very limited mon as far as options. Grass/Poison is a weak offensive dual-STAB, and EQ and HP Fire have their own gaps in coverage against UU's Steel-types. Using Knock and Sleep Powder force you to forgo either a STAB or coverage, but regardless, Venu is not this defensive threat that you can tailor to do whatever you want. It's not versatile, so idk why I'm seeing that thrown around. It's a tank that requires some scouting to figure out what it can't touch. Mega Venu is good, but that doesn't mean that Safety Goggles Crobat and Lum Bulletproof Kommo-o need to become staples to accommodate Mega Venusaur's presence in UU. Do not ban.
ILoveMilk
Banned deucer.
With reqs secured, s/o to SilvioGuacamole for the squad. I'd like to give my opinion on Mega Venusaur. I don't find it to be overly constraining team-building or overbearing on the meta. Venusaur is certainly a mon that shapes the meta around it, but in my experience laddering I haven't found that to necessarily be a bad thing. I feel like the meta just hasnt had enough time to adapt to Venusaur yet. If Venusaur stays and the meta has had time to adapt and Venu is still found to be too overbearing I would not be opposed to a re-suspect, but as of now I believe a Venusaur meta can be a healthy one and plan to vote No-Ban.
Hi. I haven't qualified for reqs yet, but I hope some of you in the pro-ban camp read over his OU analysis first. Even though the threats are very different, Mega Venusaur's underlying weaknesses are still very much present. It'll help put things into context.
Mega-Venusaur's OU analysis: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/venusaur/ou/
Mega-Venusaur's OU analysis: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/venusaur/ou/
About Requirements:
I belieave requirements that are doable 4 unexperienced players will make the UU-Community stronger in the long run. I can encourage friends to go 4 reqs with mystolen own teams and if they make it (wich is not impossible) they feel like a real part of UU community, instead of a fence-guest.
About M-Venusaurs:
Everything that makes Comfey less viable should be not only banned, but deleted from Showdown immediatly! I will most likely vote for not ban, even tho I started the Suspect with a huge dislike of M-Venu. I can't phrase it better than pif in his excellent post, but I think Venu has a fair share of flaws, that prevent it from beeing broken.
• 8 Synthesis PP are petty fast gone
• Kommo-o, Suicune, Crobat, Tentacruel and (Recover-)Latias realy don't care that much about Venu.
• Banded Terrakion does a shit-ton to Venu - forcing it to recover off chip-damage at all costs (aka wasting synth) to even be a check
• even tho it has more than 1 viable set, I can't see anything but Synthesis-Sludgebomb + Fire/Giga Drain/Sleep Powder/Leech Seeds/Knock?/EQ? ever beeing realy viable. Growth or Curse+Amnesia looks cool, but those sets missing out Coverage 4 crutial Match Ups.
• It takes a Mega-Slot, and Aero/Shark(!)/Aggron/Pidgeot all looking good rn.
Even tho I'm leaning towards not ban, I'll keep an eye on the debatte and play some Venu Sets/Teams u shared on this thread. My mind might be changed.
Even tho I "main" UU, I would not refer to me as an amazing player. I'm playing UU since OR/AS, but wasn't into suspect tests and other "forum stuff" till I've seen a post on the Showdown frontpage about the Slowbro-Suspect. "40 Games and 80GXE" it said, and after I checked my freshly made Showdown Account, i recognized that I'm close to making it without even trying to hard. THAT hocked me! NOW i wanted to make it, to make my 2 cents count. And here I am today; posting stuff on the forums, sharing mediocre sets and digging deeper into UU then ever before.
I belieave requirements that are doable 4 unexperienced players will make the UU-Community stronger in the long run. I can encourage friends to go 4 reqs with my
About M-Venusaurs:
• 8 Synthesis PP are petty fast gone
• Kommo-o, Suicune, Crobat, Tentacruel and (Recover-)Latias realy don't care that much about Venu.
• Banded Terrakion does a shit-ton to Venu - forcing it to recover off chip-damage at all costs (aka wasting synth) to even be a check
• even tho it has more than 1 viable set, I can't see anything but Synthesis-Sludgebomb + Fire/Giga Drain/Sleep Powder/Leech Seeds/Knock?/EQ? ever beeing realy viable. Growth or Curse+Amnesia looks cool, but those sets missing out Coverage 4 crutial Match Ups.
• It takes a Mega-Slot, and Aero/Shark(!)/Aggron/Pidgeot all looking good rn.
Even tho I'm leaning towards not ban, I'll keep an eye on the debatte and play some Venu Sets/Teams u shared on this thread. My mind might be changed.
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Just got requirements. I don't have any new thoughts on Venusaur, so I'll just pipe in to say I really liked this method of suspect test. I wasn't super motivated to go for them in the past, but felt more comfortable to try this time without the ladder reset. I appreciate the experimentation, and thought it was a great way to get more UU players involved.
Also mixed Kommo-o is really fun.
Also mixed Kommo-o is really fun.
I have noticed two flaws in the no-ban posts: they tend to overrate Mega Venusaur's counterplay, and they fail to see how powerful it is with minimal support. In this post I'll attempt to refute some of the main no-ban posts' arguments.
Also, which Steel-types beat Mega Venusaur? Empoleon, Mega Aggron, Klefki, bulky Scizor, and Bronzong all lose to it. Yes, they can set hazards, but every Venusaur team has Defog. In particular, Empoleon is probably on every team I've seen with Mega Venusaur, meaning Klefki can't even set three layers.
All-in-all, people need to take into account how overbearing it can be with just minimal support. It's unfair to assume that it's taking 50 Scalds a game, is perpetually burned, Sand is up, and hazards are up. Oh and stop using the XY OU metagame in arguments. It actually had weather setters besides Hippowdon to punish Synthesis and burns did 12%.
Freeroamer replied to this already, but the vast majority of these Pokémon lose to Mega Venusaur 1v1. If you hard switch Mega Venusaur into Terrakion, then yes, you will lose. Nobody is saying it counters everything. The point is once Mega Venusaur is brought in (which is stupid easy to do), you NEED a Flying- or Psychic-type STAB to force it out. To be more specific, let's assume Mega Venusaur is in the field, and I will analyze your calcs one-by-one (ignoring the boosted hits because nobody is saying it's a counter to +2 Fighting-types).
- Mega Beedrill can burn a couple Synthesis with Poison Jab, but cannot U-Turn without taking consistent SR damage.
- CB Terrakion cannot trade with Mega Venusaur as it is crippled by Giga Drain, and it recovers 40% HP. A clear loss for Terrakion user.
- Primarina is outsped and killed by Sludge Bomb.
- Scarf Hydreigon is walled, as your calc shows. Being forced to Synthesis is not the end of the world if Hydreigon ends up at -2.
- Rotom-H is walled by Mega Venusaur.
- LO Hydreigon can pressure it but cannot switch in.
- Nihilego is decent, but it is LO stalled after taking chip damage.
- Gengar needs Taunt to break Mega Venusaur, otherwise it falls to Leech Seed sets. I will admit it is a good check to it after using it, though.
- Scarf Chandelure is walled without CM or Taunt and obviously isn't switching in with SR up.
- Starmie and Mega Sharpedo both lose the trade since again, Giga Drain recovers most of the damage you deal.
- Unboosted Infernape is walled. Choice sets are easily exploited after scouting the move via Synthesis (and you take recoil from Flare Blitz). NP sets need to burn a turn boosting in which they take heavy Sludge Bomb damage.
- Magneton needs to click Flash Cannon and is easily exploited after Mega Venusaur scouts with Synthesis. It is also outsped and 2HKOd by HP Fire.
- Heracross wins the trade but nothing defensively checks it besides Mega Slowbro.
- Doublade and Lucario both need a boost to avoid being walled, and they both cannot SD on it due to HP Fire (as your own calcs show).
- Staka can break it.
- Crawdaunt and Scizor are both outsped and OHKOd.
- Mega Aerodactyl needs to be completely healthy since Wing Attack does pitiful damage and Mega Venusaur can Giga Drain it.
I'm skeptical at the idea of Mega Aggron + Tentacruel + Wish being a sufficient way to check Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur hard walls both these Pokémon and beats the common Wish users in Alomomola and Sylveon. I guess Blissey beats Mega Venusaur, but using those three pigeonhole you into a full stall build. I tried using Tenta + Bronzong + Sylveon as a passive Venusaur check, and every time it came out on top since you have to force it out, find a turn to Wish, and then hope the Pokémon your opponent has doesn't finish off the remaining 40-50% Bronzong/Tenta has left. Do you have replays of this strategy keeping it in check?
Also, which Steel-types beat Mega Venusaur? Empoleon, Mega Aggron, Klefki, bulky Scizor, and Bronzong all lose to it. Yes, they can set hazards, but every Venusaur team has Defog. In particular, Empoleon is probably on every team I've seen with Mega Venusaur, meaning Klefki can't even set three layers.
I keep seeing this but nobody ever gives concrete examples. How can you passively check Mega Venusaur? Sure burn annoys it, but as CBU pointed out, it has 5 teammates, and it is very often paired with Heal Bell. No player is going to let you spam Scald on it 10 times, get burned, and then do nothing about it. No player is going to let you get 3 layers of Spikes with Klefki for free. What is Mega Venusaur's most common teammate? Empoleon, making Klefki useless in the matchup.
All-in-all, people need to take into account how overbearing it can be with just minimal support. It's unfair to assume that it's taking 50 Scalds a game, is perpetually burned, Sand is up, and hazards are up. Oh and stop using the XY OU metagame in arguments. It actually had weather setters besides Hippowdon to punish Synthesis and burns did 12%.
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I unfortunately don't have replays, but one of the teams I used for reqs had Sylveon/Mega Aggron/Tentacruel as its defensive core and Flame Orb Hera/Z-Raikou as breakers. Not a single 'mon that can OHKO Venu and the entire team in theory can lose to MVenu 1v1 (although my Aggron runs Rest and actually reliably wins the 1v1 against non-Leech Seed versions)... but in practice, that just didn't happen. Again, you have to look at the game as a whole, and not just in terms of hypothetical 1v1s. Sylveon of course is not wishing directly on Mega Venu except as a last resort (max SpA Sludge does 56-68), but think about how it actually tends to play out in practice: Sylveon comes in on something else to get off a Wish or Heal Bell. If the opposing player brings in Mega Venu (a fairly free switch), that's an easy pivot into Mega Aggron or Tentacruel. Tentacruel comes in on almost every MVenu set (I've only seen one EQ Venu in over 100 games), often gets a couple of free turns, and forces the Synthesis surprisingly easily (since Liquid Ooze means Leech/Giga can't recover anything), letting you pivot out to one of your breakers or Mega Aggron to stall things out.
So yeah, no "easy" switches but at the same time, reliable counterplay. I'm using that as an example of how balance teams can easily adjust to beating Mega Venu not by stacking on Flying/Psychic types but rather by taking advantage of its flaws: the difficulty it has in 2HKOing things that resist Sludge Bomb, its vulnerability to chip damage that can force it to Synthesis for free turns, etc. And yes, relying on counterplay instead of hard answers means that sometimes you can get outplayed by a smart opponent. I fail to see how that's a bad thing, or anything different from 'mons that already exist comfortably in the tier such as Latias.
So yeah, no "easy" switches but at the same time, reliable counterplay. I'm using that as an example of how balance teams can easily adjust to beating Mega Venu not by stacking on Flying/Psychic types but rather by taking advantage of its flaws: the difficulty it has in 2HKOing things that resist Sludge Bomb, its vulnerability to chip damage that can force it to Synthesis for free turns, etc. And yes, relying on counterplay instead of hard answers means that sometimes you can get outplayed by a smart opponent. I fail to see how that's a bad thing, or anything different from 'mons that already exist comfortably in the tier such as Latias.
Venu does in general have some great 1v1 matchups, no question, but you can't claim that it's a behemoth 1v1 and boast about its team support without acknowledging the other team's five other mons as well, it's a two-way street. Especially when the anti-ban arguments haven't even been based on favorable 1v1s against Venu. If you're only looking at it from that perspective, then yeah Crobat, Kommo-o and Reuniclus is a pretty short list of hard counterplay options. There are five other mons facing a Mega Venusaur that can pressure it, set hazards, lure it, force double switches or gain momentum with VoltTurn, and you're simply not accounting for that if you're focus is on the 1v1s.
Make no mistake we're not justifying Venu in UU based on XY OU, but it's a useful context. XY OU was not defined by weather screwing with Synthesis, but by mons like CM Clef, Keldeo and Tran, which Mega Venu has favorable matchups against. Yet despite that, there's a reason that Mega Venusaur fell out of favor. Its biggest shortcoming is its susceptibility to chip damage, because it's pressured by Psychic and Flying-types and doesn't have a consistent way to keep itself out range of 2HKOs from strong neutral hits for the entirety of a match. This was also before good Defoggers and before Z-moves. I'll say it again: if you're just glossing over this fact, you're missing a huge part of why it's not broken and you're prolly voting ban.
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This is the main reason why I'm voting do not ban. Yes, the number of solid Psychic and Flying types are somewhat limiting, but that's not all that beats MVenu. You don't have to hit it hard super effectively, but you do have to hit it hard, and there's plenty in UU that 2hko without a Psychic/Flying move.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 217-256 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 211-249 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is the list of mons in B+ and up that 2hko with rocks up. All of this assumes that it only comes in on rocks, it's at full when it does so, and that it's the given Smogon defensive spread. Simple chip damage, an extra layer of spikes, EVs pulled from bulk and invested in speed, Z-Moves, all of these factors break the illusion that MVenu is unkillable.
For once, I'm in favor of not banning a drop. Due to the variety of counters and checks to Mega-V,(unlike Breloom), I believe it can stay in the tier without warping it any more than top tier threats such as Scizor/Latias/Manectric already have. Grass/Ground coverage Venusaur loses to grass types, flying types, and certain levitate pokemon. The list includes Pidgeot, Moltres, Bronzong,Crobat, Chesnaught and Amoonguss. The more popular set, 3 attacks synthesis, loses to Gengar, CM Chandelure without rocks, Crobat, Bronzong, Kommo-o, and Latias with cleric support. With sufficient counterplay for it, what does Mega-V add to the tier? Counters many threats that have been causing trouble in the tier, such as Malt and Manectric-M, and checks many threats, such as Scizor and M-Shark. Overall, M-Venu sounds balanced enough, the main problem I see is threat saturation. UU seems to have too many top tier threats, which while individually they are balanced(albeit barely), when you have to check M-Mane with a ground, Scizor with something??,Latias, M-Aero, Togekiss, the Dragons(Haxorus,Hydreigon,Kommo etc), The Birds(Pidgeot,Malt), and annoying deadly things(M-Shark for one example), in 6 slots while at the same time trying to not auto-lose to stall, you can feel a bit overwhelmed and unable to make the "perfect team" unless you use stall. M-Venu could help by taking on so many threats at once, and yet it is a threat and that would create a stale meta. Nevertheless, I'm more in favor of it staying in the tier.
Chandelure @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Chandelure is my favorite pokemon. With Gliscor gone, Chandy has lost another check. Chandy hates rock and pursuit, but kills stall, checks Scizor, and is perhaps the best Hydreigon lure in the tier. Its SP Atk is off the charts, and with the power of a positive nature and life, Krook is OHKO'd from full hp, and Muk-A is 2HKO'd after rocks. Furthermore, Chandy has a 62.5% chance to KO Aero After Rocks. HP ice lures Hydreigon, with a good chance to KO after two rocks switchins. It also hits Bulletproof Kommo-o really hard. Taunt takes on stall, stopping blissey in its tracks, with Muk-A 2HKO'd. Overall, this set has no counters when played well, outside of the never seen Snorlax. You could modify the set, but keep in mind Chandy needs the power to score those KOs.Give Chandy more speed and levitate Gamefreak
Chandelure @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Chandelure is my favorite pokemon. With Gliscor gone, Chandy has lost another check. Chandy hates rock and pursuit, but kills stall, checks Scizor, and is perhaps the best Hydreigon lure in the tier. Its SP Atk is off the charts, and with the power of a positive nature and life, Krook is OHKO'd from full hp, and Muk-A is 2HKO'd after rocks. Furthermore, Chandy has a 62.5% chance to KO Aero After Rocks. HP ice lures Hydreigon, with a good chance to KO after two rocks switchins. It also hits Bulletproof Kommo-o really hard. Taunt takes on stall, stopping blissey in its tracks, with Muk-A 2HKO'd. Overall, this set has no counters when played well, outside of the never seen Snorlax. You could modify the set, but keep in mind Chandy needs the power to score those KOs.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
A not exhaustive list to take away your strongest point:
- Calm Mind Chandelure
- Hex Chandelure
- Specs Chandelure
- Specs Kyurem
- Sub Roost Kyurem
- Specs Hydreigon
- Roost + LO/Z Hydreigon
- Salazzle, especially corrosion
- Beedrill Mega
- Pain Split Nihilego
- Z Power Gem Nihilego / Z Sludge Wave Nihilego
- Blissey
- Taunt Gengar
- Recycle Muk
- Snorlax
- Rest Aggron
- Kommo-o
- Stakataka
- SD Heracross
- Venomoth
I ask everyone to please think of this: remember Venusaur is an S rank Pokemon. You will lose against it sometimes, especially if you predict badly and do things like switch Moltres in on Sludge Bomb. That's normal. Venusaur can't win all the time, sometimes you will predict right such as switching Flash Fire Chandelure on a HP Fire.
yeezyknows
Banned deucer.
1-3: chipped incredibly easily, vulnerable to pursuit, rocks weakness
4-5: i used kyurem as an mvenu check, it's much less viable in practice. sludge does more to kyurem than beam does back and you'll always lose that war with the poison chance being at 30%
6-7: again, switching into sludge and then winning that war is incredibly difficult because of the poison chance and venusaur's access to recovery.
8: valid counter, and i'm only saying this because of the pearl set with corrosion, which is fire btw
9: valid, but the rocks and hp fire weakness make it an incredibly shaky switch-in
10: only exists on an earlier stall build of yours, the definition of niche
11: loses the 1v1
12: valid, but setup fodder for growth and viability is largely limited to stall
13: valid, but again very niche and loses to pursuit
14: niche
15: valid
16: unless you're curse resttalk, this set becomes incredibly passive, aggron needs 2/3 of toxic, fire punch, and earthquake to avoid being setup fodder
17: valid
18: valid on stall i suppose, but offensive variants have one switch-in before they lose: 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 127-151 (38.9 - 46.3%)
19: 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
20: niche and 2hkoed 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 174-206 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3 of these are completely valid
4 are valid with HEAVY caveats
the rest are niche or, in my opinion, are soft to medium checks that can easily be outplayed. i don't like how this list is so small and so shaky; i can guarantee even a scizor or a latias list would be far longer and more concrete.
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