Your pets are more important than your kids?

[Surgo]

You took everything I said in my initial post and decided to take personal offense to it. I think at this point you're just contradicting everything I say to try to make me look bad. Your argument is just as much "subjective bullshit" as mine is, so don't act all high and mighty. If my argument was nothing but subjective bullshit, the proper course would have been to ignore it. Instead, you decided you wanted to pick apart my whole post because you wanted to humiliate me to float your own ego. Grow up and go troll someone else's post.

I'm sorry, where was my subjective bullshit I posted again? Was it those statistics I linked that went towards debunking your idea of kids becoming stupider? I don't really need to do anything to make you look stupid, you've been doing a pretty good job of that yourself.

As for Surgo who apparently made the decision to not have a child at what, 20-21? I find it absolutely laughable unless "in a near future" or "as is currently planned" is what was meant. I have a problem with the word "decision" here I guess. A lot of people open up to having children as they get older but apparently, you find yourself impervious to change. You're green, don't even pretend "knowing all the facts" regarding something you've never experienced, especially not knowing how your life and perceptions will change within 10-15 years.

Actually I made the decision when I was 15. Strangely enough I still feel the same way 6 years later. I'm willing to accept that my opinion might change in 6 years but I highly, highly doubt it as all of the reasons I involved in making my decision to not have children when I was 15 still apply when I'm 21 and I cannot see how they wouldn't apply when I'm 27.

 

[Vineon]

Making that decision at 15 makes it even weirder. Can you imagine allowing kids at 15 that don't see children in their future the right to get a vasectomy?

I don't want you to call this a decision, I'd rather you call it "plans". I'm simply saying we all have growing left to do and many "decisions" we take today are bound to change. I'm sure there's been constancy about your way to see many things just as theres been things you've had your opinion change about and nobody can really predict how this growing will affect them. This is why there is no such thing as 'set in stone decisions' concerning the far future, especially when made this early about something such as raising kids, which is something people generally open to (those that do) later in their life. Are you actually giving weight to your decision as a 15 year old about something most people generally start making plans for in their mid 20s???

I've started to open up to wanting kids when my sister had her own a year ago. I'm not there yet but some things definitely changed. It could happen to you, or slightly more likely, to your gf who might in turn make you open up to it.

I'm just glad you agree your opinion might change, disregarding how slight the chances of that happening are but I think you don't factor in many variables. You don't even know who you are going to be with in 10 years.

 

[sanjay120]

I choose not to have kids because I know I'd screw it up. I'm not nearly old enough but I doubt my opinion would change either.

Dogs, dogs are great. I'm good with dogs, I love them, they love me. But I babysit my 5 year old sister all the time and cannot stand her. I barely know how to deal with her in ways that doesn't involve beating the shit out of her (not that I ever would).

I guess what I'm missing is maturity and patience. Some people say I'll get it when I grow older. Somehow I don't think so.

 

[Lexite]

The foster program doesn't imply or say anything about longevity of your relationship with the child, just so you know, infact sometimes the kids are taken away from decent foster homes because a longer term solution has been found.

But any foster will say No you cant just dump the kid all because you don’t want to deal with it any more. You made a commitment not keep it. The foster agency wouldn't even give a child to any one that would be at risk of doing such a thing. And yes not all fostering arrangement are not permanent, but you can’t just terminate it all because you don’t want the kid any more, that is just wrong and I’m sure there would be something preventing that in the contract. Fostering kids has a lat of legal issues you know.


And Vineon, I have to disagree a little bit. The age of a person does not matter as much as the maturity of the person. A kid at the age of 15 can be more mature then someone at the age of 30 and can make the same decisions as as 30 year old. I have always been more mature then the rest of my age group and most of my thoughs and plans have not changed too much since I was 15. Sure back then I wanted to go to college when I know now that college is a buch of bullshit but my plans are still the same. I remained pretty much the same all through out High school and I am more or less the same now. When I was younger I made the decision that I was never going to date anyone without a reason, as in I was not going to date for the pure sake of dating. I also decided that I was only ever going to be intimate with one person, the person that I would marry. For a kid, those very mature decision and to carry those decisions through high school takes a lot of maturity. I gave a lot of weight to decisions I made at 15 and carried out those decisions.

So again, it is maturity that matters and not age. Even now, all of my co-workers have thought that I was in my 20s. Some of my co workers though I was 24 when I was actually only 18 and 19. Today one of my new co-workers thought I was in my mid 20's when I am only 20. We were commenting on how someone was very immature and the girl said well she is quite a bit younger then us at which point I mentioned that I was only about 2 years older then the girl, leaving my co-worker to ask me how old I was and was surprised to find out that I am only 20.


To sanjay120, I too share that fear and I’m sure a lot of our parents did as well. Give it time and have some trust in your self. And Vineon, I’m mature enough to have kids and I still hold that fear in the back of my mind.

 

[Vineon]

I choose not to have kids because I know I'd screw it up. I'm not nearly old enough but I doubt my opinion would change either.

No you choose not to have kids now, taking in consideration your current self and your current situation.

You deem yourself unable to take care of one, which suggests you don't believe you are mature enough to have one. You are afraid to screw up.

The thing is, most people mature and if the sole reason (you don't hate children do you?) you believe you wont have kids is because you think you'd screw it up, you are one of those most susceptible of having that opinion change later as inevitably, by maturing you'll view yourself as being better fit to take responsabilities you weren't ready to take many years ago.

 

[Morm]

But any foster will say No you cant just dump the kid all because you don’t want to deal with it any more

That is completely fallacious. Foster agencies would much rather you give up the child if you are unable to care for/control/whatever the child and the situation becomes too volatile or dangerous for the child OR the caregiver.

The foster child would much rather leave a foster home he/she isn't getting along well in than stay just for 'stability', because a shitty home is a shitty home no matter how you look at it.

 

[akuchi]

Aye, I was being to a degree sarcastic - though I expected Syberia and Lexite to jump on my ass for it. Assuming I ever get my head sorted out (I don't think kids need a mother prone to spells of severe clinical depression - though my partner has said he'd take primary responsibility for care in such an event) and think I'll be a good parent, and I'm with someone that wants kids, I don't see why not. I don't think I'd like to go through the childbirth thing though, that's just icky. Brr.
I would like to foster, though. As I've said before, I see no value imprinting my genes on the world - if mental health issues really do run in families I've two bipolar grandparents and the other two are clinically depressed; three depressive aunts/uncles (and one bipolar auntie) - you can trace head cooties back in my family on both sides as far as you can go (there was a worrying trend of every other great-grandfather killing himself for about 80 years, on my mother's side). On top of this, the man I expect to settle down with is bipolar himself. Kid would be fucked from the start.
Having said all that, I think I'd be quite a good mother. I have a lot to offer a child; I am smart, occasionally quite funny and capable of loving unconditionally (unlike my own mother, who really should never've had kids).

..Do I want a kid now? No. I'm nineteen and going to uni this year. I've watched my parents raise children much younger than me and I don't like it at all, the thought of all the loss of spontaneity that comes with children. I'm selfish. I don't want that much responsibility, the thought of it makes me wet myself in fear a bit. I've got so much to do - bachelors, phd, going out and getting absolutely plastered every night, finding my first major job and my own house. Couldn't deal with a kid right now, it's an awful, awful thought.
Is that selfish? Sure. But I actually think it's much less selfish than sometime last year, when I was desperate to get pregnant (don't ask. hormones), and, yes, much less selfish than a friend of mine who has had two children at 18. She's a lovely person and a wonderful mother, but those kids don't have much of a chance at life.
As to fostering, I like the thought of doing something that will make a difference. Something vaguely altruistic with my life.
Oh, and, Syberia - no, I'd not be allowed to foster - mental health issues aside they've started banning smokers. Idiots.
And, though it's pointless saying this, Lexite - I have no effing idea why my cat is fat. She gets fed two small meals morning and night. The neighbours were also feeding her for a while (fuckers that they are), but I think they've stopped doing that now. She's just tubby. She's not, like, super fat - I've seen really fat cats and cats that have their fat dragging from their stomach onto the floor. She's not like that, she's just built like, well.. a cube..

 

[WaterBomb]

Actually I made the decision when I was 15. Strangely enough I still feel the same way 6 years later. I'm willing to accept that my opinion might change in 6 years but I highly, highly doubt it as all of the reasons I involved in making my decision to not have children when I was 15 still apply when I'm 21 and I cannot see how they wouldn't apply when I'm 27.

What happens if the woman you end up marrying wants kids? Would you be open to reconsidering your plan?

 

[Surgo]

Marrying someone who wanted kids without having The Talk and without knowing that she wanted kids beforehand would make me one really massive idiot.

Coincidentally, I've already had The Talk with my long-time girlfriend and we've both agreed that we don't want kids.

One partner changing their opinions on having children is also one of the few reasons I see as perfectly valid to split up with someone for, at whatever point, with zero hard feelings over it. It's such a monumental and life-changing thing, I think it's impossible to blame someone for splitting up over it.

 

[Morm]

I like how you formalized 'The Talk' with capital letters Surgo, definately makes it seem like a huge event!

 

[Iamslow]

I'd pretty much want it to be a huge event.

Wouldn't you?

 

[Morm]

Not really one discrete event, but more of a series of smaller events upon which the conclusion can be reached without capitalization of anything informal nouns.

 

[diinbong]

oh come on

What happens if the woman you end up marrying wants kids? Would you be open to reconsidering your plan?

I like to think I wouldn't waltz into such a situation where I weigh a (/many) human life and my relationship with my partner on the same scale.

------------------

Kids are dumber, less respectful, fatter, and more violent on average than they used to be.

If you honestly think that children are getting "dumber" as time goes on than I certainly wouldn't want you as a teacher. More violent? Less respectful? Where did this stereotype come from?

The article shows that, on the whole, violence is way down. The numbers are indeed quite interesting. Violent crime victimization rates among people ages 12 and older stayed at a strong 40-to-50 per 1,000 from the 1970s until 1994, when the numbers took a straight nosedive to just over 20 in 2003 (the last year for which there are complete datasets available from the DOJ).

[released crime rates]

I personally am disapointed that someone who makes this sort of obnoxious accusation is in a position to teach(you did say you where a teacher, I think).

 

[Glen]

"It is said that what is called “the spirit of an age” is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world’s coming to an end. In the same way, a single year does not just have spring or summer. A single day, too, is the same. For this reason, although one would like to change today’s world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done.


Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. This is the mistake of the people who are attached to past generations. They have no understanding of this point. On the other hand, people who only know the disposition of the present day and dislike the ways of the past are too lax."

- the hagakure

 

[Morm]

I am not sure I follow the relevance Glen, other than you are foolish to look to much outside of the presence and not enough to be attentive to the present at the same time.​

 

[Glen]

I am not sure I follow the relevance Glen, other than you are foolish to look to much outside of the presence and not enough to be attentive to the present at the same time.​

it was in reference to waterbomb's firm belief (like many people not from our generation do [we are from the same generation right?]) that things were better back in the day and that kids should go back to the way they were

the quote is about how that shit aint possible!

 

[Morm]

Ah, thanks muchly for the clarification Glen- for the record, I concur with you.

 

[Terminator]

I have no kids.

I literally, as in just today, payed $800 for my cat to have dental surgery so he can be pain free.

Sums up your post right there, but that depends on the kind of person you are.

I can honestly tell you that I went through a nasty bout with depression at one point, and my cat single handedly pulled my ass out of that fire. I just bought him and BAM. I went professional and medication help free. So pets can be just what is needed for certain people.

I think we may be the two extremes though; some people respond well to animals and have animals respond well to them. Everyone is different; I personally do consider my cat to be very, very close with me. It's pretty clear by his behaviour that he would rather spend a day with me than anyone else.

Conclusion: A small human child may be able to push a lawnmower, but it certainly won't make me as happy as animals do.

Personally, any person who thinks that pets are more important than kids just because he thinks they're annoying needs a reality check.

You were an annoying little kid once, did your parents ever want to replace you with a pet because you're "useless".

Look at yourself now; you're a mature adult that will become a future helpful citizen in the community thanks to the help of your parents...After your kids are 18, you'll be proud at what they can accomplish and you'll also feel proud when they do some amazing stuff that aids the community in some way (like even work at a hospital; that's still acceptable and considered as a contribution to the society)...

Do you really think a Pet can take care of you when you're old and alone?

If you think that the Adult which you raised when he was a kid will leave you when you're alone, then you're wrong and should only blame yourself for not taking care of him enough and treating your cat better than him.

 

[Glen]

its not about 'replacing' one with the other, it's about making a conscious decision to not bring a child into the world.

 

[akuchi]

If you're having children so they can look after you when you're old and.or so you can feel proud of their careers, it's you that needs to seriously reconsider.

 

[SharpIce]

No, but i don't understand

 

[Tangerine]

If you're having children so they can look after you when you're old and.or so you can feel proud of their careers, it's you that needs to seriously reconsider.

how about those parents who came over to America or some other country so their children could have a better chance of succeeding?

then again it's not like you'd understand asian philosophy anyway

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

anyone who thinks pets are more important than their child is sick. i have a dog (who i love ALOT btw) but i wouldnt choose him over my child (if i had one)

and to whoever might think dogs can survive on the wild longer than a child... youre wrong. domesticated dogs know how to kill but dont hunt to eat. a child can easily hunt (im guessing the child is a 8, 9 year old?)

 

[akuchi]

how about those parents who came over to America or some other country so their children could have a better chance of succeeding?

then again it's not like you'd understand asian philosophy anyway

way to strawman, dude
I stated if the only reason you are having a child is so it can look after you in your own age that's fucked up. If you only want a child because you think it'll get a good job that is also fucked up. It wasn't an argument against immigration or saying people shouldn't want the best for the children they have. Read more carefully next time.
Oh, and a nine year old hunting? Dear me. There's a thought. I know they're feral, but..

 

[Tangerine]

way to strawman, dude
I stated if the only reason you are having a child is so it can look after you in your own age that's fucked up. If you only want a child because you think it'll get a good job that is also fucked up. It wasn't an argument against immigration or saying people shouldn't want the best for the children they have. Read more carefully next time.

uh, it wasn't a strawman. I don't think I was using your "argument" as a case against "immigration" or anything, lol. Then again I probably should have clarified. Immigration is an example you should be considering before you make statements like that.

Let's "analyze" your statement and I'll show you why what I said applies.

If you're having children so they can look after you when you're old and.or so you can feel proud of their careers, it's you that needs to seriously reconsider.

The reason I brought up immigration is this - many parents sacrifice their careers to come over to places like America. They know that most of what they have learned in their old countries are useless, and this is why many of them run places like Laundromats, Dry Cleaners, and work as house painters etc. They have sacrificed a ton for their children.

Now is it bad for these parents to expect their children to help them when they get old? In fact, this is the prevailing attitude in places like Korea - the kids are expected to help their parents after the parents are old and unable to work. While yes, parents aren't having children *only* for future support, you can bet that that is a factor.

Secondly, you also say they shouldn't take pride in their children's careers. Consider the immigration case again - there's a reason why quite a number of a "asian parents" are uber strict - they want their children to be "successful". Should they not be proud of themselves and their children when their kids end up being successful?

And when you imply that these parents have problems what you're really saying is that "the entire culture has problems". Just because they don't adhere to your philosophy or the western philosophy doesn't mean that' it's problematic - it works. A Bit outdated? That's debatable. But in the end it doesn't matter anyway.