Sylveon [QC: 0/3]

[Chillarmy]

Baton Pass already constricts Sylveon's 4 MSS. Furthermore, Baton Pass can potentially pass nasty things such as a Speed drop from Sticky Web, an Attack drop from Intimidate, among other things. Sylveon is a cleric - not a sweeper unless it is using Specs. And even then - Steel-types will not always enjoy Pixilate Hyper (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 187-221 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery).

And when... exactly, will these hindrances even be relevant? Defensive drops from Crunch or Shadow Ball only have a 20% chance of occurring, meaning that, more than likely, Sylveon won't be Baton Passing anything harmful to its teammates. Furthermore, Pokemon with Intimidate have no business switching into Sylveon, and are usually checked by Special attackers anyway; and being at -2 Speed is rarely any worse than being at -1 (ScarfKeldeo will still beat Heatran (has to be at like 40% to lose to offensive lol); Heatran would've undersped Scizor--with the slightest bit of Speed investment--at -1, anyway; Talonflame will still murk Mega Venu; etc).

I'm not getting why crap like HP Fire is getting a pass (what are you hitting harder? Like, Scizor and Ferrothorn? AND it requires pretty stellar prediction to hit? HP Fire blows) on Specs and something as valuable as [empty] Baton Passing gets pushed to OO. I mean, if you don't want to trade a mediocre coverage attack for free momentum, that's understandable, but it's usually more ideal to fish for an opportunity to clear a path for a Choiced powerhitter.

Also, this is a tad bothering:

A surprise Earthquake can remove Heatran from the game, allowing you to more freely spam Hyper Voice.

What counts as a "surprise" Earthquake? Mega Zard-X and Entei like to carry Earthquake and Bulldoze respectively, so I don't see how it's much of a surprise. Mega Zard-Y (seemed like you'd lumped it in with the other Fire-types, but hey, I could be wrong), on the other hand, is an excellent Heatran lure, and isn't likely to carry Earthquake. Dunno how rational you are with someone that isn't QC, but perhaps it would be better to mention specific Pokemon of baiting Heatran into a sly Earthquake or other coverage move, such as the aforementioned Mega Charizard-Y, physically based Latios, or SubPunch (+ Pain Split o3o) Mega Mawile (not the best examples, but you should get the point).

Also, given that Specs can't heal at all, could you please consider mentioning Defog / spin support from Sylveon's team? Lastly, though you do mention this in CC, wouldn't you agree that 'Roar / WW beating Protect' is something suited for Usage Tips as well? If I see a Heatran, Hippwodon, or Skarmory in Team Preview, I'd be inclined to play my team, Sylveon especially, a lot more conservatively. Not saying that it shouldn't be in CC, but something such as that just seems important enough to mention on the set itself.

 

[Jukain]

We were talking about the defensive set before CM's post. BP I can agree with on Specs.

 

[alexwolf]

Baton Pass should definitely be slashed after HP Fire on the Specs set. Of course OHKOing shit such as Scizor and Ferro is extremely useful, but so is getting an advantageous switch on the Heatran switch-in, and an advantageous switch in general on things that Sylveon always forces out.

 

[The Great Gastly]

snip snip

- I agree with a Baton Pass slash on Specs, so that is now implemented.
- Defog / Spin is fairly obligatory, since I use one or the other on every team, but I didn't think to actually mention them-- added!

...and as far as a "surprise" EQ goes, I was referring to utilizing a Heatran lure (exactly what you described), so I'll include a better description and some examples. :)

 

[Alphanex20]

- I agree with a Baton Pass slash on Specs, so that is now implemented.
- Defog / Spin is fairly obligatory, since I use one or the other on every team, but I didn't think to actually mention them-- added!

...and as far as a "surprise" EQ goes, I was referring to utilizing a Heatran lure (exactly what you described), so I'll include a better description and some examples. :)

You could mention the Specs Set as a Heatran Lure if you have BP, you can Pass on the predicted switch and then bring something in to deal with it (or just trap and OHKO it with Duggy :D). AV Metagross is nitfty for this since the Tran cannot OHKO it (but may think it can), just be careful of WoW Heatrans (though they never carry it nowadays) or Balloon sets, and it can wipe out poison types.

 

[Jukain]

Yeah I don't think Sylveon is outclassed by Clefable at CMing in any way, shape, or form. I've been using this set on my stall team -- it has wielded amazing results.

Calm Mind
########
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hyper Voice
move 3: Wish
move 4: Protect
item: Leftovers
ability: Pixilate
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
nature: Bold

It's basically your typical defensive Sylveon, but souped up and all powerful. I tried this a few ways. The first was with Heal Bell > Protect on the above set, and while the utility from Heal Bell was nice, I just found Sylveon struggling to keep up. I swapped it with Psyshock for coverage on Mega Venusaur, which was proving to be a pain in the ass. But, again, the lack of recovery was disturbing. So, I replaced Heal Bell on a whim with Protect and threw it on my Vaporeon, and ended up with this set. It does serious work. When pesky foes like Heatran and Skarmory are removed, and physical threats that can do over like 60% are no longer around, this Sylveon can put in significant work. Basically, it plays much of the battle as your typical defensive Sylveon, Wish passing and Wish + Protect stalling to heal itself as needed, as well as attacking. When you need a bit more oomph, you get up a Calm Mind and fire off a Hyper Voice. If you're forced out, you're forced out, and come back in later. Late-game, this can tank hits and get boosts, then finish out opposing teams with Hyper Voice. It's your standard Sylveon with Calm Mind > Heal Bell; nothing else is significant. It fits so well into teams looking for a little more oomph in their Sylveon, and I think it should get a set of its own or slash on the main set.

You can run 12 Speed EVs if you want, idc.

 

[The Great Gastly]

So rather than trying to sweep every game, CM becomes a secondary thing Sylveon can do for more power (or to set-up during ideal battle conditions)? If Wish + Protect remains the primary purpose, then I think a slash with Heal Bell and a proper explanation should suffice. :)

I'll make the slash right now, since I trust it's a viable set, and then I'll add bullet points tomorrow after I test it out!

 

[Hibiki]

Supporting Calm Mind. Been trying it out, Sylveon can come in on a lot of stuff and gets ample opportunity to calm mind, and it only really needs one to hit stuff pretty hard.

 

[Alphanex20]

Supporting Calm Mind. Been trying it out, Sylveon can come in on a lot of stuff and gets ample opportunity to calm mind, and it only really needs one to hit stuff pretty hard.

And it's one of the few CMers that can not run Sub and beat things that do, granted no one uses SubCM anything anymore (not as far as I have seen, anyway), but it deserves a mention (and OHKOing so many powerful things with a wall is hilarious).

 

[alexwolf]

Idk about Wish + CM, but Sylveon definitely needs a main set for dedicated Baton Pass teams, with Baton Pass / Moonblast / Calm Mind / (Wish / Sub). Mono Fairy-type is excellent, and Sylveon has great bulk and the ability to deal with threatening Dragon-types, such as Kyurem-B and Dragonite, which can give a hard time to baton pass teams, while also blocking Dragon Tail from Garchomp, which is a problem if the chain hasn't accumulated enough Def boosts or if Chomp comes in on a Pokemon it forces out without a Sub up.

Also, Echoed Voice could be worth a try over Moonblast, as unlike the regular Wish set, BP Sylveon has the luxury to stay in and spam Echoed Voice until it has enough power to sweep with it.

 

[The Great Gastly]

snip snip

Oooh, I've only ever used dedicated BP teams last gen, so I'd have to test this one out too (which will be hard because college).

It seems good in theory, for that specific team archetype, but I don't know how effective dedicated BP is THIS gen. :s

 

[Alphanex20]

Oooh, I've only ever used dedicated BP teams last gen, so I'd have to test this one out too (which will be hard because college).

It seems good in theory, for that specific team archetype, but I don't know how effective dedicated BP is THIS gen. :s

Sylveon at least gives the team a boon in it's own way. It can handle things like SubCM Latias very easily or Sub Garchomp (1-2HKOing both), and it is also immune to Infiltrator Noivern's Draco Meteor and can handle Trick-Band Spiritomb well enough (if anyone uses it). It has problems with Scizor and Heatran, but that is why you often see Vaporeon on BP teams anyway XD.

 

[Jukain]

It's a good set, I can vouch for it. takes megazard y ok, which is nice because it's hard to play bp vs. a lead char y.

 

[Toxicosis]

Mmm.. I've actually been running CM with HP Ground, I've been noticing that Heatran likes to switch into Sylveon a lot of the time.. if I switch into something like an opposing Dragon and setup a CM, if they have a Heatran they will likely send it in. Then will likely try to use Roar on that turn or setup Stealth Rock thinking that Sylveon can't do anything to it.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Running a spread of 252 SpA, 140 Speed, 112 HP, 4 Def lets you outspeed neutral speed uninvested Heatran. Between Hyper Voice, HP Ground and Calm Mind, I've been playing around with different moves in the last slot.. (Tried to use Substitute, hasn't really helped.. Shadow Ball is provides perfect coverage with this, the only use really is to hit Aegislash though, Wish or Baton Pass might be worth taking)

Paired this set with Specs Magnezone (HP Fire) to trap and KO other Steels not-named Heatran, which helped my many Dragons cut through teams.

 

[Jukain]

lots of heatran creep, so outrunning min versions is kinda useless...just saying. you really need wish + protect imo to have a successful cm sylv as i covered in a previous post.

 

[Shroomisaur]

CM is okay, but I'm not a big fan. As you said CM is pidgeonholed into running Wish+Protect, which means you only have Hyper Voice and no coverage. Although less powerful, Clefable really outshines Sylveon in that role. Thanks to Magic Guard and Softboiled, you don't have to fear status as CM Sylveon does, and you have a vital moveslot for Flamethrower as coverage which prevents things like Aegis, Exca and Gene from walking all over you.

However, Baton Pass is a very nice move on Sylveon and a set should definitely be listed! You could blend the two with a set of: Hyper Voice / BP / CM / Sub.

 

[The Great Gastly]

I've yet to find time to test the BP set, but my only gripe (theoretically) is Mr. Mime's Fairy-typing overlapping on more dedicated BP teams, so maybe a QuickPassing role would be better?

Calm Mind Sylveon does work, but I still feel like Clefable is better.

• Once you get enough Calm Minds, the power difference becomes almost negligible.
• They both can run Wish, meaning both can use CM sparingly toward the beginning for extra bite, and then build more later on when a sweep is possible.
• Clefable's ability options are better for the defensive role emphasized by Wish+Protect, and aid in setting up -- Sylveon's is just for more power (1st bullet point).

I tend to value utility > power on CM + WishPassing sets in practice, since they get powerful enough anyway (when it's time to sweep). Baton Pass is literally the only reason I'd choose Sylveon > Clefable, but then doing that takes away the Wish + Protect element, and goes back to adding a BP set. lol

Also, I can confidently say that if you're going to run Hidden Power (outside of Specs)... use a different pokemon.

 

[Toxicosis]

I've yet to find time to test the BP set, but my only gripe (theoretically) is Mr. Mime's Fairy-typing overlapping on more dedicated BP teams, so maybe a QuickPassing role would be better?

Calm Mind Sylveon does work, but I still feel like Clefable is better.

• Once you get enough Calm Minds, the power difference becomes almost negligible.
• They both can run Wish, meaning both can use CM sparingly toward the beginning for extra bite, and then build more later on when a sweep is possible.
• Clefable's ability options are better for the defensive role emphasized by Wish+Protect, and aid in setting up -- Sylveon's is just for more power (1st bullet point).

I tend to value utility > power on CM + WishPassing sets in practice, since they get powerful enough anyway (when it's time to sweep). Baton Pass is literally the only reason I'd choose Sylveon > Clefable, but then doing that takes away the WishPass element, and goes back to adding a BP set. lol

Also, I can confidently say that if you're going to run Hidden Power (outside of Specs)... use a different pokemon.

Well.. I know that -specifically- for Heatran, who is a major nuisance to offensive teams, having something that can lure said Pokemon and dispatch it on its own is a major plus. There is one more Pokemon I know this set checks is Conkeldurr, mostly coming in on a revenge kill, in the case of Togekiss and Sylveon, Togekiss has to watch out for Ice Punch though. From what I've seen, Heatran and Conkeldurr are extremely popular together, Heatran users tend to sponge attacks, so if you predict its switch-in, you can make them pay for it. For Conkeldurrs, it's mostly looking at the damage that you can punish Conkeldurr for if they choose to stay in

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 460-541 (111.1 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 374-439 (90.3 - 106%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 324-384 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 432-510 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 280-332 (72.5 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Technician Mr. Mime Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 452-536 (117 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The main reason why I'd use this over some other Fairies like Clefable are that Sylveon has pretty high upfront damage and its innate bulk is enough to let it get by. Togekiss has a lot more bulk, less upfront damage, I find that Sylveon has just the right mix of bulk and power to fit on offensive teams. It's very similar to (Mega) Gardevoir, but doesn't take up your mega slot either. I feel like it's a decent niche that can break some specific things that might wall your team.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I think Hidden Power Ground should have a strong mention in the Moves section on the Specs set, since it gives Sylveon a method of simultaneously mauling Heatran and hitting Aegislash for decent damage.

 

[Aquaslash]

I only run Sylveon on a dedicated passing team (of other eevees, haha) and I'll pitch in that HP ground definitely has its merits. For starters it's great coverage as it smacks both of her weaknesses pretty good as well as all the mentioned points on aegis and heatran.

I'd also like to point out that Sylveon is actually the most useful thing I've ever seen to run cute charm. She has surprisingly good bulk when physically invested, and if you're good enough to get her behind some defense boosts, she approaches Umbreon territory as far as walling prowess goes.

 

[alexwolf]

Please add the dedicated Baton Pass set that i mentioned.

 

[CyclicCompound]

I only run Sylveon on a dedicated passing team (of other eevees, haha) and I'll pitch in that HP ground definitely has its merits. For starters it's great coverage as it smacks both of her weaknesses pretty good as well as all the mentioned points on aegis and heatran.

I'd also like to point out that Sylveon is actually the most useful thing I've ever seen to run cute charm. She has surprisingly good bulk when physically invested, and if you're good enough to get her behind some defense boosts, she approaches Umbreon territory as far as walling prowess goes.

The main issue I have with Cute Charm is that it's so situational. It requires that Sylveon be hit by a contact move, and even then has only a 15% chance to occur (30% chance of activation * 50% chance that the opponent's the right gender). It's not enough to warrant giving up a sweet 117 BP STAB move in Hyper Voice.

 

[The Great Gastly]

Please add the dedicated Baton Pass set that i mentioned.

I will add it later tonight when I have computer access, but for when I do, is there a particular speed she should aim for at certain levels? Like out speeding deo-s at +2 or something? (I still don't have a concrete spread...)

Added a strong mention of HP Ground in the Specs set, but not as a main slash. :)

 

[Toxicosis]

Not sure if this worth any discussion, but it's still funny to watch.. "If the first you don't succeed.." seems to be what my opponent is thinking >.> http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-84230326

 

[Alphanex20]

Mmm.. I've actually been running CM with HP Ground, I've been noticing that Heatran likes to switch into Sylveon a lot of the time.. if I switch into something like an opposing Dragon and setup a CM, if they have a Heatran they will likely send it in. Then will likely try to use Roar on that turn or setup Stealth Rock thinking that Sylveon can't do anything to it.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Running a spread of 252 SpA, 140 Speed, 112 HP, 4 Def lets you outspeed neutral speed uninvested Heatran. Between Hyper Voice, HP Ground and Calm Mind, I've been playing around with different moves in the last slot.. (Tried to use Substitute, hasn't really helped.. Shadow Ball is provides perfect coverage with this, the only use really is to hit Aegislash though, Wish or Baton Pass might be worth taking)

Paired this set with Specs Magnezone (HP Fire) to trap and KO other Steels not-named Heatran, which helped my many Dragons cut through teams.

I'd think about psyshock, it lets you beat Mega Venusaur (who can otherwise wall you) and other sylveons well enough, and being mixed (technically) could never hurt.