Shaymin [4F]

[LoveDensity]

Im still not sure, the big loss is Roserade tbh. Roserade completely walks all over that Shaymin, Shaymin never even has a chance. Roserade is also the 3rd most used Pokemon in UU.

Honestly though, Roserade isn't much of a threat unless it runs the Spikes set. The Sleep Powder set is easy to counter because most of it has Toxic Spikes and I haven't seen a very successful Toxic Spikes team succeed yet. Even when I ran the Standard LO set, I wouldn't dead switch into Roserade or yet alone face against it unless I know Sludge Bomb/HP Fire doesn't OHKO me. Even if that Sludge Bomb does around 70% with max Sp. Atk, if Shaymin is able to net an OHKO, it just nailed a general big threat. Yea, I agree Roserade is a threat. But your trading off the safer ability to stop one threat to do other jobs way better.

It wouldn't be hard to switch in it as well because of the extra bulk it can take from a Surf or Iron Head, EQ, etc. With the EVs, it can survive a DD Ice Punch from Feraligatar, CB Ice Punch from Azumarill or any other users, takes Ice Beams better. Milotic Ice Beam 3OHKOs Shaymin if it doesn't have LO.

Edit: Again, I find that this is a superior option when playing with a team with lots of Bulk. It is also more reassuring to switch into more hits.

 

[Heysup]

You might want to mention Venusaur as a counter. I pressed Ctrl + F and type in Venusaur and I didn't see anything. Venasaur can come and resist x4 resistance to Seed Flare and attempt to kill it with Sludge Bomb or use Sleep Powder.

Psychic (uncommon) + Life orb on 252 HP / 252 SpD Venusaur - (46.70% - 54.95%)
Around 2-3HKO with leftovers.

Air Slash (common) + Life Orb on 252 HP / 252 SpD Venusaur - (39.01% - 46.15%)

Sludge Bomb on 6 HP / 0 Shaymin - (56.73% - 67.25%)

I will say Venusaur is a pretty good check on Shaymin, you might want to mention that.

Yea, I mentioned bulky Poison/grass types as counters (thats why ctrl+f doesnt = reading the analysis), ill just put "or venasaur" next to roserade.

Honestly though, Roserade isn't much of a threat unless it runs the Spikes set. The Sleep Powder set is easy to counter because most of it has Toxic Spikes and I haven't seen a very successful Toxic Spikes team succeed yet. Even when I ran the Standard LO set, I wouldn't dead switch into Roserade or yet alone face against it unless I know Sludge Bomb/HP Fire doesn't OHKO me. Even if that Sludge Bomb does around 70% with max Sp. Atk, if Shaymin is able to net an OHKO, it just nailed a general big threat. Yea, I agree Roserade is a threat. But your trading off the safer ability to stop one threat to do other jobs way better.

It wouldn't be hard to switch in it as well because of the extra bulk it can take from a Surf or Iron Head, EQ, etc. With the EVs, it can survive a DD Ice Punch from Feraligatar, CB Ice Punch from Azumarill or any other users, takes Ice Beams better. Milotic Ice Beam 3OHKOs Shaymin if it doesn't have LO.

Edit: Again, I find that this is a superior option when playing with a team with lots of Bulk. It is also more reassuring to switch into more hits.

Im still not fully convinced too be honest, I really dont see the bulk as doing much more as the speed does. W/O EVs shaymin can take most of those hits as well.

What exactly do you suggest I do anyway? Switch the EVs or just mention them? I will not switch the EVs in any case, but I may add them in SC if I get a second opinion.

 

[LoveDensity]

Yea, I mentioned bulky Poison/grass types as counters (thats why ctrl+f doesnt = reading the analysis), ill just put "or venasaur" next to roserade.

Im still not fully convinced too be honest, I really dont see the bulk as doing much more as the speed does. W/O EVs shaymin can take most of those hits as well.

What exactly do you suggest I do anyway? Switch the EVs or just mention them? I will not switch the EVs in any case, but I may add them in SC if I get a second opinion.

Mention it. I don't believe it deserves it own set imo. Of course I believe that the speed should be standard, but teams where its speed may not matter as much(Stall teams, Bulky,) the extra bulk will matter. I find that it beats Waters significantly easier (Milotic, Lapras, Poliwrath, Feraligatar, Blastoise, Omastar, etc.) without letting other members get hurt or shown. Shaymin could take a lot of hits and poses an immediate threat which is why I thought it could take more hits. You have sets like the SubSeed sets that still loses to things like Venusaur and Roserade, so I don't see why a Bulky set could be mentioned.

Someone said Venusaur is a good check vs Shaymin. But Air Slash or Psychic is already a 2OHKO vs it and Sludge Bomb does roughly 52% to Shaymin with those bulkiers EVs compared to higher significant damage.

Edit: I also find that it isn't revenged killed as easily vs faster threats.

 

[Heysup]

Mention it. I don't believe it deserves it own set imo. Of course I believe that the speed should be standard, but teams where its speed may not matter as much(Stall teams, Bulky,) the extra bulk will matter. I find that it beats Waters significantly easier (Milotic, Lapras, Poliwrath, Feraligatar, Blastoise, Omastar, etc.) without letting other members get hurt or shown. Shaymin could take a lot of hits and poses an immediate threat which is why I thought it could take more hits. You have sets like the SubSeed sets that still loses to things like Venusaur and Roserade, so I don't see why a Bulky set could be mentioned.

Someone said Venusaur is a good check vs Shaymin. But Air Slash or Psychic is already a 2OHKO vs it and Sludge Bomb does roughly 52% to Shaymin with those bulkiers EVs compared to higher significant damage.

Edit: I also find that it isn't revenged killed as easily vs faster threats.

Alot of that is pretty irrelevant, for example Shaymin owns bulky waters always.

Some of it didnt even make sense but either way, I need to wait for a second opinion before I mention it, because as of now im not truly convinced that there is a good enoguh reason to be completely owned by other Shaymin, Roserade, Drapion, etc.

 

[LoveDensity]

Alot of that is pretty irrelevant, for example Shaymin owns bulky waters always.

Some of it didnt even make sense but either way, I need to wait for a second opinion before I mention it, because as of now im not truly convinced that there is a good enoguh reason to be completely owned by other Shaymin, Roserade, Drapion, etc.

Im bad at explaining, so please excuse me. I only play by experience. But it is not owned completely by other Shaymins, I assure you. I win about 80% of all Shaymin battles barring a sp.def drop on a switch in. I see that they usually flee when my Shaymin comes in. A water that can beat the standard LO set is Sub+FP Poliwrath. Ice Punch does only 23% with the extra bulk and does 43% with Focus Punch. LO Shaymin is pretty much dead or revenge killed if its hit by a Focus Punch. DD Feraligatar can also put it into revenge killin range after an Ice Punch.

 

[Heysup]

Im bad at explaining, so please excuse me. I only play by experience. But it is not owned completely by other Shaymins, I assure you. I win about 80% of all Shaymin battles barring a sp.def drop on a switch in. I see that they usually flee when my Shaymin comes in. A water that can beat the standard LO set is Sub+FP Poliwrath. Ice Punch does only 23% with the extra bulk and does 43% with Focus Punch. LO Shaymin is pretty much dead or revenge killed if its hit by a Focus Punch. DD Feraligatar can also put it into revenge killin range after an Ice Punch.

Firstly, Feraligatr isnt what i'd call a "bulky water".

Secondly, im going to ask you to actually post real calcs, instead of making them up. The bulk honestly does nearly no difference.

Poliwrath's Focus Punch (as an example) vs Shaymin:

vs LoveDestiny's Bulky Shaymin: 50.63% - 59.65%

vs Standard LO Shaymin: 59.24% - 69.79%

So you still get KOed by Focus Punch when its used twice. You claimed that Poliwrath only did 43% with Focus Punch, which is just wrong.

Post real calcs if you want to convince me, otherwise the Standard Shaymin is staying as is.

 

[LoveDensity]

Firstly, Feraligatr isnt what i'd call a "bulky water".

Secondly, im going to ask you to actually post real calcs, instead of making them up. The bulk honestly does nearly no difference.

Poliwrath's Focus Punch (as an example) vs Shaymin:

vs LoveDestiny's Bulky Shaymin: 50.63% - 59.65%

vs Standard LO Shaymin: 59.24% - 69.79%

So you still get KOed by Focus Punch when its used twice. You claimed that Poliwrath only did 43% with Focus Punch, which is just wrong.

Post real calcs if you want to convince me, otherwise the Standard Shaymin is staying as is.

I did not call Feraligatar a Bulky Water. I mentioned DD, nothing else. Also, I'm done with trying to contribute to this. If it works for me, I should just be happy climbing the ladder. I barely get respect when it comes to making movesets. Heck, it took me a long time to get the Smeargle Spiker set to be approved. Again, I'm a man based on experience. I don't like running calculations and I am not wrong when I said I saw a Poliwrath do 43% to me.

 

[Heysup]

I did not call Feraligatar a Bulky Water. I mentioned DD, nothing else. Also, I'm done with trying to contribute to this. If it works for me, I should just be happy climbing the ladder. I barely get respect when it comes to making movesets. Heck, it took me a long time to get the Smeargle Spiker set to be approved. Again, I'm a man based on experience. I don't like running calculations and I am not wrong when I said I saw a Poliwrath do 43% to me.

Listen, I want to include those EVs because Shaymin is after all a very versatile (stat-wise) pokemon, I just need something to work with, I cant just add it without some solid evidence behind it.

No one "likes" running calculations, but sometimes its needed to prove a sets worth. So thats all im asking, for some examples of where the 232 HP EVs matter.

 

[kd24]

i have only used this to a little extent so ill need to test it more but have you tried choice scarf shaymin?

Shaymin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 40 HP/216 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psychic

still doing moveset but this little guy outspeeds modest scarf houndoom and max speed feraligatr after 1 dragon dance which is pretty cool. i currently have psychic as last slot for stuff like hariyama and more importantly weezing but again still testing.

 

[Heysup]

i have only used this to a little extent so ill need to test it more but have you tried choice scarf shaymin?

Shaymin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 40 HP/216 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psychic

still doing moveset but this little guy outspeeds modest scarf houndoom and max speed feraligatr after 1 dragon dance which is pretty cool. i currently have psychic as last slot for stuff like hariyama and more importantly weezing but again still testing.

I could definately see that being Set Comments / OO for surprising Crobat.

Only reason I dont think it warrants its own set, or a slash to Choice Specs, is because of its base 100 SpA, which isnt too impressive without a boost.

 

[twash]

I could definately see that being Set Comments / OO for surprising Crobat.

Only reason I dont think it warrants its own set, or a slash to Choice Specs, is because of its base 100 SpA, which isnt too impressive without a boost.

Now, I can finally pitch in on this analysis.

I have used Scarf Shaymin to full success. It is definitely deserving of a slash, at least.

I don't know why you're saying "base 100 SpA, which isn't too impressive without a boost". It seems you're forgetting it has a 140 base power STAB move to boot. Shaymin's Modest Seed Flare actually outdamages Blaziken's Modest Fire Blast. Now sure, Grass isn't the BEST attacking type, but you said yourself, "Only reason I dont think it warrants its own set, or a slash to Choice Specs, is because of its base 100 SpA, which isnt too impressive without a boost". I place emphasis on your "only".

To disregard something, without testing it, due to its "not too impressive" Special Attack (by the way, I disagree, base 100 is perfectly good), is a ridiculous statement. Instead of theoretically disregarding things, I ask you to test them / ask other people's opinions. Choice Scarf Shaymin is good, and I support it being merged with Choice Specs.

 

[kd24]

although i support a choice scarf set, it plays much differently than specs and i think it deserves its own seperate set comments, one of its big niches is outspeeding pretty much all of the dders and ohkoing them that are found in uu, as well as outspeeding crobat and koing with psychic (or at least denting because i am pretty sure you dont exactly ohko but with sr maybe?)

 

[diinbong]

328 Atk vs 196 Def & 337 HP (90 Base Power): 216 - 256 (64.09% - 75.96%)

It will always 2HKO, which is really all you need considering you'll hit it on the switch and then surprise it and hit it again should it not know you're Scarfed.

 

[Heysup]

Now, I can finally pitch in on this analysis.

I have used Scarf Shaymin to full success. It is definitely deserving of a slash, at least.

I don't know why you're saying "base 100 SpA, which isn't too impressive without a boost". It seems you're forgetting it has a 140 base power STAB move to boot. Shaymin's Modest Seed Flare actually outdamages Blaziken's Modest Fire Blast. Now sure, Grass isn't the BEST attacking type, but you said yourself, "Only reason I dont think it warrants its own set, or a slash to Choice Specs, is because of its base 100 SpA, which isnt too impressive without a boost". I place emphasis on your "only".

To disregard something, without testing it, due to its "not too impressive" Special Attack (by the way, I disagree, base 100 is perfectly good), is a ridiculous statement. Instead of theoretically disregarding things, I ask you to test them / ask other people's opinions. Choice Scarf Shaymin is good, and I support it being merged with Choice Specs.

Firstly, I didnt disregard the set, I set it could have some potential for outspeeding various threats.

Secondly, I have no idea why you seem to think Seed Flare is 140 Base power (its 120), or why you seem to think it out damages modest Blaziken's Fire Blast (same BP, and Blaziken has 22 more SpA), or why that is even relevant.

The point is, Shaymin isnt the "most" appealing choice scarfer because it does not have a monstrous SpA stat like Magmortar or Roserade. It excels with its STAB move power and coverage, but thats only half the fight.

I'll test it out more, because I only used Choice Scarf shaymin temporarily early in the BL / UU test, but from my minimal experience Roserade always just outclassed it with Sleep Powder, higher SpA, and STAB Sludge Bomb.

although i support a choice scarf set, it plays much differently than specs and i think it deserves its own seperate set comments, one of its big niches is outspeeding pretty much all of the dders and ohkoing them that are found in uu, as well as outspeeding crobat and koing with psychic (or at least denting because i am pretty sure you dont exactly ohko but with sr maybe?)

What DDers are there other than Feraligatr? Charizard is probably the only other one, and it owns Shaymin. I honestly dont know what to do with the Scarf set, im still thinking about it.

 

[Erazor]

I would say mention Choice Scarf in the set comments, explaining that it is Shaymin's best way of beating its best counter, Crobat. In that case, mention Modest as the nature. Boosted or not, Seed Flare still hurts, and with the special defense drops, you won't realize the difference.

 

[twash]

First of all, I apologize for my mistake. I don't know why I did that.

I was showing it was relevant as Blaziken is a common Choice Scarfer, yet their power output is near the same. Oh, and Seed Flare has a 40% to lower SDef, something Fire Blast can't do (10% burn).

Just because it doesn't have "monstrous" Special Attack doesn't mean it can't work. 328 Special Attack is not bad. At all. Honestly, I don't know why you are thinking base 100 is bad. It is perfectly usable (in fact, very usable).

 

[Heysup]

First of all, I apologize for my mistake. I don't know why I did that.

I was showing it was relevant as Blaziken is a common Choice Scarfer, yet their power output is near the same. Oh, and Seed Flare has a 40% to lower SDef, something Fire Blast can't do (10% burn).

Just because it doesn't have "monstrous" Special Attack doesn't mean it can't work. 328 Special Attack is not bad. At all. Honestly, I don't know why you are thinking base 100 is bad. It is perfectly usable (in fact, very usable).

Everyone makes mistakes, no biggy.

However I think you missunderstand me, I dont by any means think that Choice Scarf Shaymin or Base 100 SpA is "bad". I definitely agree that its usable. Basically Erazor covered what I was going to do:

I would say mention Choice Scarf in the set comments, explaining that it is Shaymin's best way of beating its best counter, Crobat. In that case, mention Modest as the nature. Boosted or not, Seed Flare still hurts, and with the special defense drops, you won't realize the difference.

Thats Pretty much what I think should be done with the Choice Scarf set.

 

[kd24]

What DDers are there other than Feraligatr? Charizard is probably the only other one, and it owns Shaymin. I honestly dont know what to do with the Scarf set, im still thinking about it.

didnt reply earlier sorry


altaria
lapras
feraligatr
charizard

those are the 4 uu dragon dancers and shaymin pretty much does away with all of them (in the end, hp rock may prove better as it still hits altaria but hits zard a lot better)

 

[Heysup]

Well lets see, it revenge kills Feraligatr...

Charizard is just as fast as shaymin, and after a DD it will easily set up more DD's and OHKO everything.

Altaria = 328 SpA Shaymin's HP Ice vs 72/min Altaria: 88.03% - 103.56% (15% chance to OHKO)

Lapras = 328 SpA Shaymin's Seed Flare vs 32/min Lapras: 92.57% - 109.90% (50% chance to OHKO, but Lapras is Never Used in the First place, AND its DD set is even rarer than that.) = moot.


The only valid points I see are:

Revenge kills Feraligatr after +1.

Surprise KO'es Crobat.

This is basically OO material unless there is something im missing?

 

[kd24]

feel free to add it only to other options but i am going to use this post to show come logs of why i personally like it.


im just gonna ladder nonstop right now and find times where this is out and what it actually does

wackybob 1 switched in Swellow (lvl 100 Swellow ).
Shaymin used Seed Flare.
It's not very effective...
Swellow lost 60% of its health.
Swellow's special defence was harshly lowered.
Swellow was burned!
---
Shaymin used Seed Flare.
It's not very effective...
Swellow lost 40% of its health.
wackybob 1's Swellow fainted.

this is very fun, swellow was his first shaymin switch since no shaymin is gonna hang around it. seed flare 2hkoed with modest scarf which gave swellow no chance to scare me off

opponent switched in Venomoth (lvl 100 Venomoth ).
Venomoth used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Blaziken lost 88% of its health.
kd24's Blaziken fainted.
---
kd24 switched in Shaymin (lvl 100 Shaymin).
Pointed stones dug into Shaymin.
Shaymin lost 12% of its health.
opponent switched in Scyther (lvl 100 Scyther ).
Shaymin used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Scyther lost 100% of its health.
opponent's Scyther fainted.
---
opponent switched in Venomoth (lvl 100 Venomoth ).
Shaymin used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Venomoth lost 72% of its health.
Venomoth used Bug Buzz.
It's super effective!
Shaymin lost 88% of its health.
kd24's Shaymin fainted.
---
kd24 switched in Regirock (lvl 100 Regirock).
Pointed stones dug into Regirock.
Regirock lost 12% of its health.
Venomoth used Bug Buzz.
Regirock lost 43% of its health.
Regirock used Earthquake.
Venomoth lost 28% of its health.
opponent's Venomoth fainted.
Regirock's leftovers restored its health a little!
Regirock restored 6% of its health.
---
opponent switched in Armaldo (lvl 100 Armaldo ).
Armaldo used Rock Polish.
Armaldo's speed was sharply raised.
Regirock used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Armaldo lost 96% of its health.
Regirock's leftovers restored its health a little!
Regirock restored 6% of its health.
---
Armaldo used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Regirock lost 47% of its health.
Armaldo lost 4% of its health.
opponent's Armaldo fainted.
kd24 wins!
nil quas has left the room.
kd24: gg lol

not as good here, i would have loved shaymin to actually come in on scyther and ko with hp rock but this guy was using mono bug (and it actually works lol). basically stilled killed scyther with hp rock which isnt that impressive. venomoth obviously had the best chance to beat me at this point but anyway, had i not scarfed shaymin, he would have outsped and bug buzzed me to death. the hp rock on venomoth was crucial allowing regirock to kill it, survive with enough health to beat his polish armaldo (had he attacked me last pokemon would have killed armaldo so he had to try and polish and hope stone edge missed.

ill post more logs when i get them, im just showing you right away what this did for me already

edit: im not gonna cherrypick either x=

 

[Mrobinson587]

Usage probably doesn't reflect this but most Lapras would use Ice Shard anyways so speed doesn't make a difference when revenge killing. Not to mention any good DD spread (read: adamant) for lapras would require 2 DD to outspeed Shaymin anyway.

 

[Heysup]

No offense, but showing me that a Scarfed Pokemon with a Rock Attack can KO something on a mono-bug team does not really mean much at all. And actually with Specs you probably would have swept him, as only Scyther outsped.

The surprise KOes are what matters, such as in the first log. Though if Swellow is your best Shaymin switch-in....lol.

I'll put it in Set Comments, i guess.

 

[kd24]

im fairly certain it was scarf venomoth lol, ill ask him again, otherwise that second log may be null lol. if it was indeed scarf, then yeah it really helped me win because i wouldnt then be able to take it down (or at least i would be forced to try stone edge -the worst move in the game- twice).

thanks for giving it a mention, me and twash really support this set because its so effective of catching its common fast revenge switch ins for 2hkos

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Scarf is very solid and very viable on Shaymin because of its solid base 100 SpA, its VERY good attacking options in Seed Flare (or Leaf Storm if you're so inclined), Earth Power, etc, and the fact that it has base 100 speed. That same Blaziken vs. Shaymin thing is kinda null given that it's unlikely anyone would run Modest alongside Scarf (Modest fails to outspeed Crobat, which really sucks, and also guarantees you lose to stuff like Adamant Scarfed Lee, other scarfed base 80s that run Timid / Jolly because they're smart, etc). Because of this, Shaymin can get that extra attack power because of its sizeable Speed.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I have also used Scarf Shaymin with some success. There were times when I really wished I could have just used Synthesis and kept attacking, but overall it was pretty solid. Most of Shaymins checks (Crobat, Protect Speed Boost Yanmega, Swellow) are pretty much owned by Scarf Shaymin.

100 SpAtk is far from bad in UU, especially since the 100 base Speed it has to back it up lets you use Modest. Natural Cure also eliminates the risk of switching your precious Scarfer into a Thunder Wave (from Regirock and such). A 180 BP move with decent coverage in UU is very underrated, it even 2hkos most things that resist it.

With a scarf, Shaymin instantly becomes one of the best revenge killers in the game. I personally love outspeeding DD Altaria for the KO, but there are plenty of other situations like that. Scarf definitely deserves a slash on the Choice set. Just put Scarf next to Specs and rename it "Choice"