np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[Heysup]

I guess Ill try to put my voting reasoning on Paper, so at least I have clear arguments for the paragraph.

Abomasnow- BL

Abomasnow is the most BL out of the suspects, imo, and that is for many reasons. Abomasnow can successfully bring a powerful Pokemon to the table, as well as having a permanent Hail ability (which I think Snover would be broken for having as well, but that is not here nor there).

The first argument, Abomasnow is an incredibly powerful Pokemon to deal with, because of its unique typing, STABs, and movepool. With the common leads getting easily taken out by a Abomasnow with the moves Blizzard, Leech Seed, Protect, Ice Shard. Wood Hammer can replace Ice Shard, but that is near irrelevant. With leech seed, Hail and Protect, an opposing Pokemon loses a ridiculous amount of health per turn, and with Abomasnows unique typing, it is quite hard to find a Pokemon with a Super effective attack, that is faster. The Fire Types can switch in, and take out abomasnow, but they must lose around 30-40% health From Leech seed and Hail before they attack, and Abomasnow can also easily switch out to a Flash Fire Pokemon, because the Fire Pokemon in question can only switch in one more time. The STABs help Abomasnow with it`s Stalling, because all Grass types are taken care of by Blizzard, which is a ridiculous 120 BP Accurate STAB attack. Having Leech Seed + Unmissable Blizzard makes Abomasnow an incredibly hard Pokemon to switch into, as well as take out.

Now for the second reason, Permahail. Permahail makes Abomasnow fit the support characteristic right off the bat, imo. This ability, gives Pokemon a permanent 120 Base power 100 % Accurate attack, which is already ridiculous, comming from Pokemon such as Glaceon who can fire it off of a 130 Base SpA Stat. It also activates an evasion ability, Snow Cloak. Glaceon can not only sweep as a Scarf user, but it can now Wish Pass and Roar with its crazy evasion keeping it alive. This is the closest a Pokemon can get without activating the "evasion clause".

Permanent hails clincher, though, is the unstoppable, fat, infamous Stallrein. Stallrein is a build of Walrein, who can use substitute and protect, and not take damage for 32 turns. Thats ridiculous! With Hail in play, any Pokemon without, a Toxic Immunity or Taunt, and Leftovers automatically loses to this beast, due to Poison or Hail. There are approximately 4 Pokemon who can safely counter this. Thats pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

The reason the permanent hail is not broken now, is because Snover is not used well enough to test the team, and more importantly, Froslass is gone. Froslass being gone was probably the reason no one used hail, even with Snover. It was pretty important to get an automatic three layers of spikes, but it wasnt necessary. Especially with Abomasnow also being able to Stall out, or knock out a good portion of the metagame, and fueling this monsters in the hail.

That was a long one...

Raikou-Leaning towards BL

Raikou is arguably not a hard Pokemon to deal with, but this is where the definition comes in. Raikou is very clearly able to sweep a good portion of the metagame with relative ease. With as many as approximately 25 relevant Pokemon that can be used as set up bait. THATS ALOT! These 25 Pokemon will appear more often then not, and the handful of counters does not outway the possibility that Raikou will find time, with its incredible Bulk, to set up a couple Calm Minds, and likely sweep. Raikou forces people to carry multiple checks for Raikou, otherwise you basically lose to everyone with Raikou. It is the 5th fastest Pokemon in UU, and can utalize the bulky waters that are so common to set up an easy calm mind or two, with only around 4-5 Pokemon that can actually stop it after a couple Calm Minds. After a couple calm minds, Raikou fits the characteristic, and the Calm Minds do not require too much "effort".

Crobat-Not Sure

Without Crobat, the metagame was more diverse. The only thing holding Crobat back from UU, is its 394 Speed, and bulky defenses/typing. Crobat was a great check for the most common threats, Gallade, Blaziken and etc. Without it a Pokemon such as Gallade would have free Reign over the metagame.

The issue with banning Crobat, is that it doesnt fit any one characteristic, it just comes close to fitting them all. It can stall and get rid of a good portion of the metagame with Brave Bird and Roost. It can also easily set up Rain and Sun with its bulk and great speed. It can also hurt. Im not sure with this....

Froslass- BL

Seriously fuck this thing. This fills the support characteristic and some. This Pokemon lays down minimum two layers of spikes by any decent player, against any decent player. Froslass not only is fast enough to abuse Spikes and Sash, but it is also a part Ghost type. A spiker that blocks rapid spin, thats ridiculous, even when discarding the fact that its stupid fast and has Destiny Bond. Spikes allow so many Pokemon to easily sweep and Stall, due to its 25% Damage, plus a 12% from SR. thats 37.5% to a neutral to SR Pokemon switching in to 3 spikes + SR. What sort of Balance or Stall team can deal with that? Nevermind offensive teams....

Staraptor- BL

Well, Staraptor, as so many have said before, is rather easy to play effectively, and can not be dealt with easily at all. A Pokemon with 120 Attack and 100 Speed with Uturn, and intimidate is just crazy right? How about we add the fact that it can 2HKO Steels, with a 120 BP Fighting Attack! Staraptor has no 100% checks, and you require many to deal with it. With nearly zero Pokemon able to switch in, that is the little effort needed to put it in BL.


Gallade- Leaning towards UU

I know right? Too be honest, Gallade was NEVER an issue for my teams. Slowbro was a surefire counter to Gallade, well almost. The ONLY thing that could keep Gallade in BL, is its Movepool. Considering Gallade cannot carry more than four moves, it can not effectively be an easy sweeper, because it depends on its movepool alot. Sort of Like Raikou, but the difference here is the fact that Raikou can set up far more easily, where as Gallade is knocked out by any Physical attack, and cant use substitute effectively, nor does it have 338 HP.

 

[the_artic_one]

I've got a couple problems with your statements.

Thats ridiculous! With Hail in play, any Pokemon without, a Toxic Immunity or Taunt, and Leftovers automatically loses to this beast, due to Poison or Hail. There are approximately 4 Pokemon who can safely counter this.

This is incorrect, any slower pokemon with positive priority or faster pokemon with negative priority beats it. Sub punchers are especially good for this due to a sub giving them toxic immunity.

Gallade is knocked out by any Physical attack, and cant use substitute

It can use substitute, there's even a sub salac set in the analysis.

 

[Syberia]

This is incorrect, any slower pokemon with positive priority or faster pokemon with negative priority beats it. Sub punchers are especially good for this due to a sub giving them toxic immunity.

Walrein can also use Roar, and with Spikes (also ridiculously easy to set up thanks to Abomasnow's hail + Froslass' Sub + Snow Cloak) no Substitute user is going to be around for too long.

 

[the_artic_one]

Spikes are ridiculously easy to get rid of with foresight hitmontop getting guaranteed spins. Besides, froslass is likely to be bl anyway.

Also, roaring a sub puncher usually leaves you without a sub facing an unknown threat. It also means you get walled by water absorbers. There are a lot more surefire stallrein counters than four.

 

[Relictivity]

Foresight Hitmontop does not guarantee spike removal if you have 2 ghosts.

The Water Absorbers don't like Toxic very much.

SubPunching really ruins your HP since you take Hail Damage each turn + Entry Hazards and maybe Toxic on the switch in.

But the rest of what you said was right.

 

[yokie]

My endorsements

BL
I'll start off with Staraptor, a suspect with a near unanimous consensus on its tiering. Staraptor is distinct from its Normal/Flying brethren, because it can actually demolish Rocks and Steels. A Life Orb Close Combat 2HKOes even the mighty Steelix. Combined with Brave Bird, everything in UU stands to be 2HKOed or flat-out OHKOed bar Luxray, Rotom, and Ampharos. Intimidate eases switching in and forces others to switch out. Plus, it even carries U-turn for scouting so-called counters. Choice Band appears to be the most threatening set with minimal prediction, but the SubRoost set doesn't even need prediction to murder the opponent's team. The best set is Substitute / Roost / Brave Bird / Close Combat with Life Orb. Roost negates the Steath Rock and Life Orb damage, and Substitute on the switch allows Staraptor to safely choose between Brave Bird or Close Combat. Prediction is not a factor. If Staraptor somehow manages to scrap by into UU, then fast multi-hit moves might become mandatory to deal with the SubRoost set. Double Hit Ambipom and Fury Swipes Persian immediately come to mind. Ambipom and Persian will easily be OHKOed if the don't switch into a Substitute. Sorry, Staraptor, you're surely going to get "promoted" to BL for the offensive characteristic.

BL
Abomasnow is another easy judgement. SubSeed with STAB Blizzard in an Auto-Hail... you can't be freaking serious. Abomasnow wears down anything that tries to break its SubSeeding. A slow bulky U-turner like Uxie and Mesprit can break the Substitute and run off to something faster that can survive a Blizzard, but Uxie and Mesprit's don't have reliable recovery nor Leftovers healing due to the Hail. Another anti-Abomasnow tactic is to use faster and bulky healer with Taunt or Encore. Clefable is immune to Leech Seed and can Encore, but it'll take a beating from Blizzard. Hypno and Umbreon need a lot of Speed EVs to avoid getting Leech Seeded but can Taunt. Miltank similarly needs some Speed to avoid the Leech Seed. Charizard and Moltres can counter if they can avoid getting gored by Stealth Rock. Typically SubSeeders are thwarted by other Grassers, but no Grasser is going to risk taking a STAB Blizzard. Abomasnow wears down the opponent's team, so that its teammates have a much easier time to make a sweep. These arguments don't even take into account how the auto-Hail supports the rest of the team. Snow Cloak evasion and Walrein stalling are brainless and wildy destructive. Abomasnow clearly fits the support characteristic.

BL
One Swords Dance is all Gallade needs to batter in UU with its bare fists / blades. Nearly all of its counters will be weakened enough after a single Stone Edge, so a sweep is largely imminent. Stealth Rock wears down its supposed counters also. Gallade has a terrific Special Defense stat, so it sets up on defensive Pokemon pretty easily. Ghosts that are immune to his terrifying Close Combat are outspeed and KOed easily by Shadow Sneak. Everything else can fall flat on its face to a +2 STAB Close Combat. If Speed is an issue, then use the SubSalac set. Gallade sets up a Substitute extremely easy on the switch because of its frightening sweeping potential. Gallade's incredible sweeping potential fits the offensive characteristic perfectly.

Loosely BL
The analysis that I proudly wrote, is causing so much havoc. Froslass sets up two layers of Spikes without breaking a sweat and can screw over other leads with Taunt or Destiny Bond. Her base 110 Speed stat is just stunning. The Spiker Lead is even more ridiculous when you consider that people deemed Froslass way too frail to ever effectively set them up. She's the best Spiker in UU hands down. Her easy Spikes set up puts her as a BL suspect easily, but she's not completely broken. The leads have diversified with Froslass admittedly, but Ambipom and Crobat has taken over the fast Taunter role very well. There are other viable Spikers too: Omastar and Roserade, but no one has cried BL to them. The major fault of suicide leads is... the suicide. Her Spikes can be Rapid Spun away, making her suicide in vain. Most offensive teams do not want to use a team slot for a dedicated Spinner, so it's easier to just eliminate the best UU Spiker. Don't get me wrong; The Froslass lead is super easy to use and doesn't require much skill at all. I'm leaning toward BL, because she sets up Spikes way too easily and laughs at other lead set ups efforts.

BL
Raikou sets up on bulky waters and plenty of other Pokemon way too easily. Substitute eases prediction immensely and doesn't really hurt Raikou's versatility, considering the small movepool. With insane Speed and Special Attack stats, Raikous makes a terrific sweeper or plain Choice user. STAB Thunderbolt is arguably the best offensive type in UU. Shadow Ball is really all that Specs Raikou needs to compliment Thunderbolt to beat up nearly all of the UU metagame. Hidden Power for specific Electric-resistant threats is just icing on the cake. The blazing Speed outpaces even Timid Roserade, so Choice Scarf makes a terrific revenge killer also. Don't underestimate STAB Thunderbolts from any halfway decent. Offensive teams really hate to be matched up against Raikou, because nothing offensive can reliably deal with its potent small yet effective movepool. Raikou sets up much of UU without a care and proceeds to mow down the rest of the team without much resistance, so BL should be Raikou's new home for the offensive characteristic.

Mostly UU
Crobat doesn't scream "ban me," because players seldom label defensive or support Pokemon as broken unless due to extreme circumstances. People don't give enough credit to the wingman that faciliates the sweep. Crobat's blazing fast Taunt shuts down set ups in their tracks and it can Roost off the damage if they choose to attack. Crobat can even stall about a Regirock by shedding its Rock weakness with Roost. Make no mistake, this craft bat can dish some damage of its own with its STAB Brave Bird. Crobat makes a terrfic check against some of the top threats in the game, most notably Shaymin. Top it off with U-turn scouting abilities, you've got one great utility Pokemon. Despite Crobat's great abilities, it is far from indestructible. Crobat isn't a move spammer at all. Its users need to make risky decisions to Taunt and risk attack, or attack and risk taking status and recoil. A skilled player is needed to use Crobat's maximum effectiveness. A speedy, bulky Taunt adds a while new element to the metagame, separate from the "mindless bashing heads" strategies. Crobat is certainly effective at what it does, but it needs an experienced player to use well. Since Crobat doesn't make it substantially easier for its teammates to sweep, it deserves to be in UU.

​

 

[petrie911]

My opinions on things.

Staraptor--BL--I voted Staraptor for BL in the last suspect test, and little has changed about it to change my mind. Brave Bird, Close Combat, and Return/Double-Edge are resisted by exactly 1 pokemon, and all 3 are 100% accurate attacks with at least 120 base power. And that's with only 3 attacks. That still left it a slot open for QA if you needed priority, U-turn for scouting, or Roost for staying power. Intimidate only helped it switch in, and once it was in, you had to guess right about what it was going to do. SubRoost with LO, as pointed out above, made it even more difficult to take down. Obviously, I'm saying that Staraptor satisfies the Offensive characteristic.

Abomasnow--BL--It's a fairly good pokemon on its own, and Hail is horribly broken even without Froslass. Most of the Hail things have been mentioned, but I'd just like to add that FEAR Clefable absolutely sucks to go against in Hail. Get some Tspikes down and only Ghosts and Articuno will be able to stop it from taking out at least one of your pokemon. It's not unbeatable, but it justs adds more fuel to the "Hail is broken" fire. Abomasnow satisfies the support characteristic for its auto-hail ability.

Froslass--BL--It's a spiker that spin-blocks, can taunt other spikers, and has a fast Dbond, which combines nicely with Taunt. STAB Ice Beam off 80 base satk isn't too bad either, especially with how good Ice is as an attacking type. I distinctly remember when this was allowed, just about every lead was Froslass or something to stop Froslass. It was just way too good at getting those spikes up, and could still serve other purposes even after that. Support characteristic.

Raikou--UU--It did set up easily on a lot of things, but I don't remember it being that much of a problem. Terrible coverage and low move power outside of Tbolt didn't help it, and it had a few pretty much surefire counters. Since, to me, Raikou is not clearly BL, I'm probably going to vote it for UU.

Gallade--UU--80 speed and low defense hurt it a lot, and it generally couldn't do much to the likes of Slowbro and Spiritomb without sacrificing type coverage or priority. Not that its priority move was anything to write home about. It had phenominal attack and was difficult to switch in on, but not nearly as difficult as, say, Staraptor. Again, since it's not clear to me Gallade is BL, I'm voting UU.

Crobat--UU--Unlike the above two, of this I'm certain. Crobat was wrongly voted BL. It simply isn't broken.

There's one other thing about Froslass. It seems that Froslass was the only suicide lead in UU, and when it was allowed, most leads centered around stopping it. Now that it's gone, there's been a lot more variety in leads. Perhaps Crobat's banishment helped that along, too, but I really think it was Froslass who centralized the lead, not Crobat.

 

[Stagnant]

All I have to say is that instead of being completely close minded.. I'll say that Froslass, Galade, and Crobat needs retesting. Raikou, -Raptor, and Abomasnow can go suck on a egg! Anyways, -Lass, Galade, and Crobat all seem to check each other. They are all obviously going to be the top leads and each check each-other rather nicely.

 

[Heysup]

Foresight Hitmontop does not guarantee spike removal if you have 2 ghosts.

The Water Absorbers don't like Toxic very much.

SubPunching really ruins your HP since you take Hail Damage each turn + Entry Hazards and maybe Toxic on the switch in.

But the rest of what you said was right.

Well that explains a bit of why he was wrong.

The sub Salac Gallade was no where near the "Broken" set. It was seriously rarely used and when it was it was seriously so easy to get rid of. The only set that keeps it close to BL is the SD/Close Combat/Shadow Sneak / (Leaf Blade / Stone Edge / Psycho Cut / etc), with Life Orb.

 

[AeroGP]

Galade as a lead would be interesting. Aide from Roserade, who could just put it to sleep with decent reliability, no one would want to risk taking huge damage on their lead, and Fake Out users will be very cautious about activating Steadfast. That means it can securely status the incoming switch-in and setup from there.

I really don't need a huge paragraph for my statement. The metagame changed when all the suspects were removed, but we cannot reasonably say whether it was an accurate evaluation of what pokemon broke the metagame. We need more time to figure that out - even if it means having to suffer through hail again for another month, having to watch our backs for Staraptor, having our leads get taunted all the time by Crobat, and getting pummeled to death by Raikou and Gallade. We should give ourselves more credit and see what we can come up with to counter these threats, and if we cannot then there will be no doubt that they are the source of strife in the metagame.

Another month testing the same suspects all over again seems fair enough. We may not need to ban anything.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Well, from the obvious sentiments, I think its fairly easy to say that:
Staraptor and Abomasnow won't be seen in UU again
Froslass, Gallade and Raikou (From more likely to less likely) might be tested again
Crobat is likely to return to UU

Thats the general impression I'm getting from the current debate. I myself wouldn't mind seeing Gallade and Raikou back. Froslass and Crobat I'm not too keen on though, but that's personal preference.

 

[The 198]

If theyre going to retest will they be seperate or all together, does anyone know?

Did anyone ever try running swords dance/leaf blade gallade? I orginally made it to get rid of the spiritombs that were plauging my team, I just picked leaf blade due to the CH rate. Yet after I used it for a while I noticed alot of people switched in bulky waters (slowbros, milotics) as a gallade counter, and it mopped them up. Did anyone else have any luck /w this set?

 

[RBG]

Testing may extend to April 1st, depending on what the mods say. Don't give up on ladder. Just spam Shaymin, Specs Fires, and Honchkrow. SubRoost Moltres is a killer too.

The test should be ending at the end of ratings tonight. Since the test started with ratings fresh on March 1st, it will end on March 31st (1 more day than OU suspect tests, so don't think we will add another)

If theyre going to retest will they be seperate or all together, does anyone know?

What is going to happen is after the voting is over, All the pokemon voted BL will be moved there, all Pokemon voted UU will be moved back, all UU pokemon that became OU will be moved there, all OU pokemon that fell to UU will be moved there, and then we will start the process over.

 

[whistle]

The test should be ending at the end of ratings tonight. Since the test started with ratings fresh on March 1st, it will end on March 31st (1 more day than OU suspect tests, so don't think we will add another)

What is going to happen is after the voting is over, All the pokemon voted BL will be moved there, all Pokemon voted UU will be moved back, all UU pokemon that became OU will be moved there, all OU pokemon that fell to UU will be moved there, and then we will start the process over.

does that mean umbreon (49) and milotic (50) won't be UU and donphan (51) and yanmega (52) will be UU? what about rotom-w (56)?

 

[RBG]

does that mean umbreon (49) and milotic (50) won't be UU and donphan (51) and yanmega (52) will be UU? what about rotom-w (56)?

it depends on what happens with the March Stats. And the Alt Rotom Formes have always been tiered together.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

So, at the end of the month, will a NU list be created?

I would assume that the UU list would be everything that was a UU standard in the month of March, any suspects that get voted down from BL, and any OU Pokemon that fall from grace, and then NU would be every current UU not on that list.

Of course, this makes the slight assumption that we don't lose any important UUs to OU in the coming month, but Milotic is the only notable one that seems in danger of that.

We should have an NU list in a few days, but there won't be a ladder for it, and if something's broken, it won't be removed for quite a while from now. So, yes, some of us could get together and play it, but I don't know how useful it'll be. When I played UU before UU was recreated, it was completely different to how it is now. Not to mention, I was playing when Flygon and Rhyperior were still UU.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Flygon and Rhyperior? That was a LOOONG time ago

And Yanmega in UU would be great, I've always loves the little dragonfly

 

[MapleSandwich]

Ugh...fuck...all I can say is that I hope my rating meets 1600/55, because I'm vomiting violently now. There's no way I can ladder to fix it if I fall out tonight.

Anyways, just for posterity, a recap of my positions (already stated earlier in the thread, with reasoning):
Staraptor: BL
Raikou: BL
Abomasnow: BL
Froslass: Want it BL, but leaning towards UU
Gallade: Thinking UU
Crobat: UU

 

[Mattman324]

Hmmm. Donphan in UU wouldn't be to bad (yay for trick room rapid spins!) but Yanmega could rip s*** up. My only two consolations are that it can't effectively use hypnosis (if crobat and gengar can't, neither can yanmega) and that it's arival into UU will create a surge of trick room teams.

 

[west ham sandwich]

I'm not sure how I feel about Donphan or Yanmega, but I know I'd rather see Donphan in UU before I saw Yanmega. Protect speed boost makes him faster than just about any non-scarfed 'mon in UU, and as a lead thats pretty devestating.

As for the suspects, the only 2 I could see in UU are Froslass and Crobat, and maybe Gallade.

I'd rather see Electrode and rain dances than Abomasnows and Wailmers, though I did see a snover once.

 

[AeroGP]

Yanmega is living proof that speed isn't everything. It's still beat by Crobat and Electrode leads, as well as Stealth Rock, which means it'll have to find its own niche with STAB bug/flying special attacks and Hypnosis.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Yeah, or rip everything to shreds with TintedSpecs attacks ;)

So I'm going to try to convince Jumpman to maybe squeeze me into voting, I apparently finished at 1593 yesterday before I had to stop =/

 

[MagicMaster87]

Ugh, when was the rating requirement changed to 1600? Last time I checked, it was 1550/50, so I didn't bother to battle much these past few days... Looks like I won't be voting after all. =\

*EDIT*
Why is everyone talking about Donphan and Yanmega? Have the OU stats actually come out already and I just missed them?

 

[west ham sandwich]

my deviation isn't good enough, though my record is still really good. oh well, no voting for me i guess. :(

 

[yokie]

If you can't vote, that doesn't mean that your opinions don't matter. You can post what you would vote BL/UU and your sound reasoning. You may be able to influence those who have voting rights.