np: UU - Here It Goes Again

[Thund91]

Since when are bulky waters unbeatable? a simple toxic and they will forever be crippled. And it's not as if roserade is a guaranteed free switch in to slowbro; a well timed psychic(or ice beam in milotics case) will hurt it quite a bit.

Rest-talk Milotic is a bitch. I was fighting a heavy stall team that used one that ran Rest/Sleep Talk/Recover/Surf and the whore just wouldn't DIE. My Roserades Energy Ball only did like ~45. Unless you invest a shitload in SpA and run a grass/electric move, she won't be going down anytime soon. Bad thing is it allows boosting sweepers to set up even easier without a second attack, but that's what teammates are for.

And I don't think Roserade is the only viable Grass type and if she's gone bulky waters will be a problem. Unless you run Leaf Storm CM Bro can beat most grass types after a few CM's. Sceptile, Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Torterra are all viable.

 

[Boingo]

People REALLY need to stop acting as if Roserade (or earlier, Shaymin) is the only viable Grass Type in UU.

 

[WJC3688]

They are (or in Shaymin's case were), however, undeniably the best of the viable grass types.

 

[BurtonEarny]

They are (or in Shaymin's were), however, undeniably the best of the viable grass types.

If you want an attacker or spiker. Roserade will never be a better physical tank than venu or torterra. I actually see so many roserades and will see a spot where venu would fit better... They can run similar sets minus spikes, and Venu gets more bulk at the cost of some sp. atk. I used an offense team with Venu and loved the thing.

 

[Huntofthelion]

If you want an attacker or spiker. Roserade will never be a better physical tank than venu or torterra. I actually see so many roserades and will see a spot where venu would fit better... They can run similar sets minus spikes, and Venu gets more bulk at the cost of some sp. atk. I used an offense team with Venu and loved the thing.

Venasaur is defiantly viable, I just wish it got TS. And Torterra has rock polish which I believe none of the other grass types get. It's not the best late game sweeper, but it's pretty decent.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Honchkrow I would not mind seeing in UU again, on the basis that it is not that much better than Absol anyway, who got exactly zero BL nominations.

Honchkrow is so much better than Absol that it's ridiculous. The STAB Drill Peck to prevent Fighting-types from switching in, the higher Speed, the extra immunity and the fact that it can actually take a hit with that huge 100 base HP make it much more reliable. Not to mention, Honch also has the option of using Insomnia, another great trait and another option over Absol.

I haven't thought that Absol was very impressive in this test yet, it is extremely underwhelming...especially compared to Honchkrow that I could get at least 2 KOs in every match with.

 

[franky]

To add on to that, not many physical walls can stop it. Since Steel-types in UU lack recovery move they loose a chunk from Life Orb Superpower.

 

[WJC3688]

Well, judging by the fact that someone is still referring to Honchkrow's defenses as "much more reliable," I see that I clearly need to haul out more evidence with regards to that, so, here we go:

Timid Scarf Rotom T-bolt v Absol: 75.37% average
Timid Scarf Rotom T-bolt v Honchkrow (if Honchkrow weren't weak to Electric): 66.67% average

The difference is slightly less than 10%. With Stealth Rock damage added in, the average damage goes up to 87.87% for Absol, and 91.67% for Honchkrow.

Min Atk Impish Miltank Body Slam v Absol: 45.59% average
Min Atk Impish Miltank Body Slam v Honchkrow: 40.35% average

5.24% difference in average damage. Add in SR damage, figures increase to 58.09% for Absol, 65.35% for Honchkrow. Now let's test that Defense Tiers topic I was referring to earlier. According to that, the difference between these two, in terms of defense tiers, is 1.28. Let's see what that Miltank Body Slam does against the two Pokemon directly above Absol and Honchkrow in their respective tiers, Espeon and Nidorina, who have physical defense tier values which are identical to those of Absol and Honchkrow, respectively.

Same attack as above, Min Atk Impish Miltank Body Slam, v 4/0 Espeon: 45.59% average
Min Atk Impish Miltank Body Slam v 4/0 Nidorina (70 base Hp, 67 base Def): 40.78% average

The difference in average damage here is 4.81%, as compared to a 5.24% difference in average damage with the same attack applied to Honchkrow and Absol. Extremely similar values, as predicted by the Defense Tiers topic. So, whoever called that topic worthless and stupid, from now on I reject your opinions.

Either way, this is a demonstration of Honchkrow's allegedly far superior defenses. You people can decide for yourselves whether or not you think that 5-10% differences in damage (in exchange for SR weakness) are really so monumental, personally, I'm not impressed.

the higher Speed

Oh yes, Honchkrow's 71 base Speed gives it a marked advantage over Absol's 75 base Speed.

 

[Thund91]

Oh yes, Honchkrow's 71 base Speed gives it a marked advantage over Absol's 75 base Speed.

Lmfao.

I think Honchkrows biggest advantage is that it can deal with Bulky fighters better because of STAB Drill Peck and that ground immunity. Absol struggles against them with an unstabbed Psycho Cut. Only about half use it anyway.

 

[WJC3688]

Yeah, only about half use it cause it's only slightly more than half as powerful as Honchkrow's Drill Peck, I agree that the Ground immunity and Flying STAB are pretty valid points. Personally I don't think it's a big enough difference to warrant one being banned and the other being considered perfectly acceptable, but, that is open to interpretation, so whatever. I mainly want people to quit harping about how Honchkrow's defenses are way so awesome when they're not at all.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

bla bla bla I'm going to talk down to everyone who disagrees with me

Well considering that 5% helps make Honchkrow a suspect and Absol not a suspect, I would say that it is a lot more important than you are making it out to be. The Ground immunity is also well worth the Stealth Rock weakness, giving Honchkrow an extra couple of moves to switch in on that Absol would kill to have at its disposal. Also, you conveniently ignore Honchkrow's neutrality to Fighting, which is invaluable because it prevents it from being revenge killed by slow mixed LO Blaziken, random things like Mach Punch and Vacuum Waves. You also ignored Honchkrow's neutrality to Bug, which means that if you switch into a Mesprit while it U-turns you aren't instantly screwed. Honchkrow also has a Grass-resistance which is extremely handy, although I know that this is just empirical evidence, I have been saved tons of times by coming into a Ludicolo Energy Ball with Honchkrow and then Sucker Punching it to death, something that I could never do with Absol =\

I guess the main point of that first paragraph is that pokemon isn't just a game of numbers and you should really stop treating it like it is. Sure, Honch takes slightly less damage from certain neutral attacks, but its better typing helps it take MORE attacks than Absol can take overall. Situations that Absol would be forced to switch out of aren't problems for Honchkrow at all. Namely, Absol is forced to switch out of Blaziken because of its Vacuum Wave, but Honchkrow can take it and OHKO back without switching. Let's look at some damage calculations that are actually relevant to this topic to show you why people aren't taking you as seriously as you want them to:

LO Blaziken's Vacuum Wave vs Absol: 350 Atk vs 156 Def & 272 HP (40 Base Power): 254 - 300 (93.38% - 110.29%) always OHKOs with SR
LO +SpAtk Blaziken's Vacuum Wave vs Honchkrow: 350 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (40 Base Power): 141 - 166 (41.35% - 48.68%) never OHKOs

LO Modest Ludicolo Energy Ball vs Absol: 306 Atk vs 156 Def & 271 HP (80 Base Power): 219 - 258 (80.81% - 95.20%) Absol loses after SR + LO, and if it switches in it faces a ~50% chance of being OHKOd
LO Modest Ludicolo Energy Ball vs Honchkrow: 306 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (80 Base Power): 122 - 144 (35.78% - 42.23%) Honchkrow switches in and lives with room to spare

0 Atk Mesprit U-turn vs Absol: 246 Atk vs 156 Def & 271 HP (70 Base Power): 158 - 188 (58.30% - 69.37%) hope you didn't try to Swords Dance or come into a Psychic
0 Atk Mesprit U-turn vs Honchkrow: 246 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (70 Base Power): 89 - 105 (26.10% - 30.79%) Honch takes less even if you factor SR in for Honch and not Absol

I hope I got my point across here. When people talk about how Honchkrow is so much better than Absol defensively, they aren't talking about taking random neutral attacks, its about taking a much broader variety of attacks. Honchkrow is "better defensively" because its typing and resistances allow it to take a larger amount of common attacks compared to Absol.

Instead of looking at a small subset of numbers, you should be thinking based on what is actually going to happen in a battle. Why would I possibly care about how much Rotom's Thunderbolt does to Honchkrow or Absol, when I am just going to Sucker Punch it to death with both of them? Why should I care about Miltank's Body Slam, when I would only use Honchkrow and Absol to deal with it in an absolute emergency? You just looked at a small amount of damage calculations and decided that in your opinion, the 5% less damage that Honch takes from neutral attacks compared to Absol is worth completely ignoring the huge amount of in-battle situations where Honchkrow's defenses and typing DO give it a huge advantage. Instead of being so focused on "rejecting <peoples> opinions", maybe you should pay more attention and look at ALL of the data instead of a select few pieces that suit your opinion.

In addition to being better defensively because of its far superior typing and ability to use Insomnia and create even more of a distance between it and Absol, Honchkrow has better attacking options with a STAB Drill Peck (again, so Honchkrow can actually scare off fighting-types unlike Absol), and even the ability to use Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Heat Wave and Roost as well as Superpower on a Special set to beat Chansey.

Also, what does that Nidorina and Espeon thing have to do with anything?

Oh yes, Honchkrow's 71 base Speed gives it a marked advantage over Absol's 75 base Speed.

Oops, my bad. I thought Honch had 81 base Speed. Either way, there isn't anything that Absol outspeeds that Honchkrow doesn't, so its not like Absol even has an actual advantage there either. Once again, you should probably stop being douche about everything when you are completely missing the point. It doesn't impress anybody. You can get your ideas across without insulting people and being condescending, it really hurts my feelings!!

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

As TAY can attest to, DD Sub Liechi Feraligatr is ridiculously good in this metagame right now. It has the bulk to take an absurd amount of attacks and still survive, and a +2 Torrent Waterfall hurts a LOT.

Me, I've been using Endure / SD / X-Scissor / Reversal @ Salac Berry Scyther and it's amazing. So many teams just fall straight apart to this, because if they don't have a poison or flying-type (or dusclops), Stall pretty much auto-loses to it. Offense loses without priority, balance generally just loses outright.

 

[WJC3688]

Well considering that 5% helps make Honchkrow a suspect and Absol not a suspect, I would say that it is a lot more important than you are making it out to be.

I wouldn't. 5% is 5%, it's not anything more than what it looks like, it's not often going to make a significant difference.

The Ground immunity is also well worth the Stealth Rock weakness, giving Honchkrow an extra couple of moves to switch in on that Absol would kill to have at its disposal. Also, you conveniently ignore Honchkrow's neutrality to Fighting, which is invaluable because it prevents it from being revenge killed by slow mixed LO Blaziken, random things like Mach Punch and Vacuum Waves. You also ignored Honchkrow's neutrality to Bug, which means that if you switch into a Mesprit while it U-turns you aren't instantly screwed. Honchkrow also has a Grass-resistance which is extremely handy, although I know that this is just empirical evidence, I have been saved tons of times by coming into a Ludicolo Energy Ball with Honchkrow and then Sucker Punching it to death, something that I could never do with Absol =\

I ignored that stuff because I have nothing to say about it, and also because you ignored it in your original post on the subject, which I was responding to. My post was responding specifically to this statement of yours:

the fact that it can actually take a hit with that huge 100 base HP make it much more reliable

I suppose I should've quoted that in the first place to make my point more clear; people have been talking about Honchkrow's HP as if it's a big advantage over Absol for quite a while, and I think its value is being overrated, so I addressed it.

Also, what does that Nidorina and Espeon thing have to do with anything?

Earlier in the topic I used the Defense Tiers topic from the DP Information / Resources thread to try and quantify Absol and Honchkrow's overall defenses. Someone (SDS iirc) called the Defense Tiers topic meaningless and stupid, or something along those lines, in response, so I posted that example to show that the Defense Tiers topic is infact reliable and not a joke.

You just looked at a small amount of damage calculations and decided that in your opinion, the 5% less damage that Honch takes from neutral attacks compared to Absol is worth completely ignoring the huge amount of in-battle situations where Honchkrow's defenses and typing DO give it a huge advantage. Instead of being so focused on "rejecting <peoples> opinions", maybe you should pay more attention and look at ALL of the data instead of a select few pieces that suit your opinion.

And perhaps you should quit defining my own opinions for me. My "opinion" is simply that Honchkrow's base 100 Hp is not as important as people make it out to be; I never stated that I think Absol is the better overall Pokemon.

Either way, there isn't anything that Absol outspeeds that Honchkrow doesn't, so its not like Absol even has an actual advantage there either.

Well, Absol outspeeds Honchkrow, though I suppose that doesn't matter at the moment with Honchkrow sitting in BL.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I ignored that stuff because I have nothing to say about it, and also because you ignored it in your original post on the subject, which I was responding to. My post was responding specifically to this statement of yours:

I suppose I should've quoted that in the first place to make my point more clear; people have been talking about Honchkrow's HP as if it's a big advantage over Absol for quite a while, and I think its value is being overrated, so I addressed it.

That is a fair point, Honchkrow's defensive stats aren't much more impressive than Absol's. However, the way you went about presenting your argument was ridiculously condescending considering that you were completely missing the point. To reiterate, defenses aren't just numbers, they are also types and they are also situational. Absol could have 500 base Defense, Speed and SpAtk and it would still lose to Blaziken's Vacuum Wave while Honchkrow would not. So instead of making condescending posts, you should consider the bigger picture. You basically posted a bunch of random irrelevant damage calculations and said "look here, i am right and everyone that disagrees with me is making a big deal over nothing" while completely missing the point that Honchkrow has more than just numbers over Absol. If you were just concerned about people exaggerating the HP, you should have said that and not "honch only takes 5% less damage" when that is blatantly false in situations where Honchkrow would actually be taking attacks, because Honchkrow's typing means that it would be taking less from a greater variety of attacks in situations where Absol would either instantly lose or would be forced to switch.

It's not the 5% less damage on neutral attacks that people think puts Honchkrow over Absol, its the 50% less damage it takes from U-turns, Vacuum Waves and other random attacks, as well as the added immunities to Ground and sleep that make Honch actually usable from an "if I want to get KOs, I might actually have to switch this pokemon in at some point" point of view.

Earlier in the topic I used the Defense Tiers topic from the DP Information / Resources thread to try and quantify Absol and Honchkrow's overall defenses. Someone (SDS iirc) called the Defense Tiers topic meaningless and stupid, or something along those lines, in response, so I posted that example to show that the Defense Tiers topic is infact reliable and not a joke.

The defense tiers topic may be helpful for a basic understanding of things, but the reason why people don't see it as useful is because of what I outlined in my last post: Pokemon isn't a game of numbers. Oh wow, a 1.28 difference in defense tiers, that is really going to help me figure out what kinds of attacks I can switch into. Defense tiers are irrelevant in comparing pokemon because so many other things come into play on every single turn that statistics alone wind up being one of the least important things that a player has to know to win. Type resistances, Stealth Rock and prediction come into play more than doing random calculations on paper. Who cares about a 1.28 difference in some made-up defense tier, Honchkrow's type advantage and slightly better defenses make it more useful and able to perform better in the tier, and that is all that matters.

 

[Erazor]

I have a question:

Since we have to write paragraphs on the suspects.... what if we choose to abstain from voting for a particular suspect? Do we still have to write an argument for it's status?

 

[Caelum]

I have a question:

Since we have to write paragraphs on the suspects.... what if we choose to abstain from voting for a particular suspect? Do we still have to write an argument for it's status?

Just make a small note about your abstinence and a short sentence or two why you are abstaining and that should suffice for me.

I'll have the thread up sometime Tuesday morning (hopefully).

 

[august]

Eh looks like I'm a little late and won't be able to vote. 1862 rating but only a 110 deviation and I'll be gone for a few days.

In general though, my views of the current suspects:

Honchkrow: The only thing thats got me sold on this being better than Absol is Insomnia. They both have about equal power for Sucker Punch but Absol has Swords Dance. Insomnia is a ridiculously good ability though especially against stuff like Sleep Powder locked ScarfRade. I wasn't as active in the Honchkrow metagame but when i was i found it's powerful Sucker Punchs to be a good check against Rain and Sun teams. Something else i like about Honchkrow is that it isn;t weak to fighting.

Crobat- oh god did I hate this thing. In my opinion it overcentralized way too much. Crobat was on so many teams it was ridiculous. I really don't have an opinion on this too much cause it won't really effect me regardless.

Shaymin- Shaymin was always a surprise. It can viably run a Choice set, a SubSeed set, a defensive set, a Life Orb set, hell even a Swords Dance set. Shaymin was hard to take down because of the 100/100/100 defenses as well as the same base attack stats and speed. Just a little too diverse for my likings but I wouldn;t mind it in UU again.

Take these with a grain of salt ~_~

 

[BurtonEarny]

when will the vote actually take place? I mean what day, because I'm going on a vacation and possibly may not be able to make it to a computer...

 

[Gorgoroth]

Honchkrow may be a little better then Absol but I still don't think it even should have been a suspect let alone being moved to BL. That would be ridiculous. (For me Chopleberry Steelix stops both of them cold along with Technitop)

 

[Caelum]

when will the vote actually take place? I mean what day, because I'm going on a vacation and possibly may not be able to make it to a computer...

I don't know exactly. I have to give people a week to send in paragraphs and then we have to review them (may take a day or two) so, approximately 10 days-ish? If that's a problem for you let me know with your submission and if its approved I'll post your voting intentions and vote in your stead (I obviously can't really cheat since you'd obviously be able to say "I didn't want to vote that way" when you came back lol).

 

[M BLADE]

Honchrow gets more chances to switch and take hits than Absol...but if you let Absol switch in for free,he will be WAY more dangerous than Honchrow

Not to say Honchrow is weak to Stealth Rock

But Honchrow can go mixed,or even try a NP set...Absol should NEVER use Calm Mind...
Oh well,Absol can BP basically anything besides speed if you're willing to differ each other

Absol also gets Stone Edge,and no one seems to care about...but it is a strong attack with a high crit ratio,just what Absol loves

Honchrow can counter much more pokes than Absol though

I like Absol more because he's more like a straight sweeper(kind of a UU Lucario),which suits my play stile more,while Honchrow is more like a hit-and-run one,coming in immunities/resists and ditching mean damage,almost always power enough to 2hko with a Sucker Punch after,with some chance to sweep for itself(somewhat like Heatran)

 

[BurtonEarny]

I don't know exactly. I have to give people a week to send in paragraphs and then we have to review them (may take a day or two) so, approximately 10 days-ish? If that's a problem for you let me know with your submission and if its approved I'll post your voting intentions and vote in your stead (I obviously can't really cheat since you'd obviously be able to say "I didn't want to vote that way" when you came back lol).

That would be great if something comes up and I wont be back in time to actually vote, thank you. I should be back in about 5 or so days... I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't miss the date.

 

[supermarth64]

The thing about defense tiers is that, although Pokemon might be slightly different or similar in the tiers, experience and common sense comes before that.

For example, 252/0 Spiritomb has a physical defense tier of 118. 0/252 Blissey has a physical defense tier of 118 also. But the thing is, NO ONE USES BLISSEY AS A PHYSICAL WALL. Spiritomb is a lot better because of WoW and because of no weaknesses. As much as you would like to theorymon about how Absol and Honchkrow have slightly different defense tiers, experience trumps that. Honchkrow's Ground immunity allows it to come in on a lot more attacks than Absol, even if it is SR weak.

 

[A.P.]

It seems Dugtrio and Donphan have dropped, while Umbreon is now OU.

EDIT: I think Porygon2 is also OU.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Well Umbreon and P2 aren't huge losses, but the two new ground types are quite exciting.