np: UU - Here It Goes Again

[d2m]

Sure plenty of moves can easily KO Stallrein from most of UU's best sweepers, but the point of Stallrein is that it only needs one turn to set up a sub and start the 32 turn stall cycle. Sure, it can't go one on one vs. all these sweepers, but that is not the point. You're using it wrong. And while these sweepers switch in and try to KO it they get worn down by hail, Toxic Spikes, and SR/Spikes if they switch or Walrein uses Roar.

I personally don't agree that Stallrein is broken. It does require quite a bit of support from the team (Snover, Toxic Spikes) to be effective at all. From my experience Stallrein has a difficult time stalling out a significant portion of the metagame because the conditions it needs are not common at all, with Snover being such a useless poke and grouded poisons everywhere. Besides needing very specific conditions, it has a decent amount of counters. Encore and Taunt users who can take a few special hits. This includes things like Clefable, Quagsire, Drapion, Mismagius and Azumarill who commonly run those moves and can mess up Stallrein.

Way to miss alll of my other points. Let me encapsulate them in number form:

1) Encore
2) Taunt
3) Inability to safely switch in
4) Status
5) Restalkers
6) Requires Hail (meaning Snover and no SD/RD/Hippopotas)
7) Every team should have a contingency plan for him, it's not too hard.

You attacked #3, which alone isn't as much of a problem, but combined, all these make Stallrein weaker than he was making him out to be.

@ d2m - you are exactly right, but it is this double switching that stops any residual damage from piling up on you. yea, it sounds crazy, but thats how you have to play to beat stall! hmm, i have something hard-walled or beaten by roserade. therefore, you're probably going to roserade to get up some free spikes, right? i remember one match i had in which i had a uxie out vs a hariyama. instead of getting up some SR of my own, or psychicing, i uturned out of the steelix switch in and managed to keep SR off the field for the whole match. the point of the double switch is, if you keep mixing up what you do, you will eventually score a kill on an important member of the stall team. but yes, d2m, you are exactly right. i guess what i didnt make clear was the fact that you can utilize the double switch / move prediction to keep residual damage off the field.

Keeping residual damage off the field is next to impossible if the stall team is built well or predicts ANY of the double switches, you're right, though, with perfect prediction and double switches stall is beatable. The problem with that is that stall is significantly easier to run: they don't have to predict as well as you do, they don't have to attempt to make their own movesets or anything. They can slip up 1-2 times and be fine, but if you slip up once, gg. Add to that that Spiritomb (as I mentioned) can stall out at least 2 members of every team, which results in you being unable to pressure him from constant double switches.

 

[BurtonEarny]

@ d2m - you are exactly right, but it is this double switching that stops any residual damage from piling up on you. yea, it sounds crazy, but thats how you have to play to beat stall! hmm, i have something hard-walled or beaten by roserade. therefore, you're probably going to roserade to get up some free spikes, right? i remember one match i had in which i had a uxie out vs a hariyama. instead of getting up some SR of my own, or psychicing, i uturned out of the steelix switch in and managed to keep SR off the field for the whole match. the point of the double switch is, if you keep mixing up what you do, you will eventually score a kill on an important member of the stall team. but yes, d2m, you are exactly right. i guess what i didnt make clear was the fact that you can utilize the double switch / move prediction to keep residual damage off the field.

I agree, even if offense is supposed to "beat" stall, it doesn't do it nearly often enough from my experience and its because the stall players I watch DONT take chances, but at the same time neither do the offensive players.

Smart prediction is what lets offense break stall more than any wall breaker UU has to offer. However, the longer you wait to start building that momentum, the harder it is to get the match back under control and you'll find your self in too deep of a hole if you aren't constantly staying ahead. However, one mess up or bad prediction and your just as easily punished and potentially crippled as the stall player is.

This ties into what LN said about specific threat removal. People need to realize that the same sets over and over are going to get walled. A team may not have a COUNTER to a wall breaker, but a good stall team should have multiple checks to Blaziken, or Nido, or taunt anything. GOOD Offense loses to stall partially because many of its players are afraid to over predict. That coupled with the fact that few people go out of their way to try new sets and builds makes stalls job that much easier. Being safe and predictable as well as running the same team as everyone else is not the way to win. Your basically playing with your hand revealed. Isolating a specific core wall like Chansey, and being able to remove it, basically at will is a HUGE asset to teams that is out there, but people are not using it. Like pursuit on Absol. I quickly gave up on night slash because people EXPECTED night slash and I noticed how well pursuit could cripple or kill Chansey or even opposing offensive threats that didn't expect it.

Offense that has been successful in this test usually has some poke or strategy that has stepped outside of the norm and come up with an uncommon and potent threat that will catch a stall player cruising through the match on auto pilot off guard. For instance, HeYsUp running the LO Roserade... Its a beast, but it saw little use before he helped popularize it. I dont know how many rmt's I've seen people say "LO is bad on her, use scarf", but LO Roserade was able to potentially remove Chansey from a match, or even weaken it main counter Registeel. The EVENING he posted that team, I saw that Roserade's usage EXPLODE. Many stall teams where not prepared to handle it's raw power and lost an important poke early since stall is so restricted in choice of pokes, and they simply couldn't hit it hard enough.

Stall is hard to innovate when so few viable option are out there. However, stall can be rewarded for trying new things if they are only slight changes to standard sets. For instance, Aerial Ace on Altaria has saved me LOADS of times. The hero of my stall team this test has been a scarf Roserade with Hp Ground. At first I ran it simply because I expected Drapion's usage to explode and Hitmontop would have to take alot of unwanted damage to beat it. But thanks to Roserade, I can come in on the SD, outspeed it, and do about 70 with Hp Ground which means Hitmontop only has to take one of his attacks. Sure, that means Roserade is fodder, but she also saves my team against Nidoking who is a VERY potent and underestimated wall breaker in the tier as well as checks Blaziken AND shes able to get spikes up early due to the scarf. One layer of spikes and saving my team from a threat I dont have a hard counter for like Nidoking is more than good enough for me, and the set (in conjunction with the rest of the team, as its coverage is admittedly poor beyond what I need it to hit hard) has defiantly proved it's viability to me.

That said, a "random good stuff offense" team and a "generic" stall team will always remain viable, but they will always have common weaknesses. They will pilot the same, but the teams that focus on threat removal, carry an uncommon poke or move set that has flown under the radar, or simply take chances in conjunction with logical reasoning and smart prediction win.

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CONDESCEND RANT:

Basically I said all of that to say this
1) Over-predictability is PAINFULLY common in the tier... EVERYONE plays too safe
-in conjunction with
2)Few people are bothering to try new things and experiment in a time when it SHOULD be happening.

-I don't think this whole tangent was needed (sorry guys), but I'm horribly long winded... and I wanted to address D2M's comment. It kind of turned into a more generic soap box speech than I had intended, echoing other peoples thoughts while adding my own. But, it is the truth.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Way to miss alll of my other points. Let me encapsulate them in number form:

1) Encore
2) Taunt
3) Inability to safely switch in
4) Status
5) Restalkers
6) Requires Hail (meaning Snover and no SD/RD/Hippopotas)
7) Every team should have a contingency plan for him, it's not too hard.

You attacked #3, which alone isn't as much of a problem, but combined, all these make Stallrein weaker than he was making him out to be.

Err, yeah, that's what I meant to do. I was just saying how foolish it would be if you were to go one on one with any of those pokes that have the ability to OHKO Walrein. In an earlier post you said if people were to switch Walrein in on these pokes it would get killed quickly, which no one would ever do. It would only switch in on things that can't do much before Walrein sets up a sub.

About beating stall: remember that stall players must play VERY conservatively if they have any chance of staying in the game, because they know the loss of one important member can easily lead to the downfall of the entire team. The idea of removing a vital piece and the rest crumbling after. Offensive players must be able to make the tough predictions in order to take out that piece. This means that even one or two moves can mean the end for a stall team. Take advantage of a stall player's conservative plays and act accordingly, whether it's by double switches or strange move choices.

The idea of sort of off hand sets being used is good too. Example is something like Stone Edge on mixed Blaziken. For the first few turns Blaziken will always be walled by Altaria, but somewhere in the match the Blaziken can take out Altaria with a surprise stone edge and allow something like Mismagius to sweep. I also like things like Pursuit Drapion to deal with Chansey. Chansey, who fears being set up on, usually takes around 64% from a switching Pursuit. From there, something like Moltres is able to Fire Blast or Air Slash it away. Just try slightly different things people and take advantage of stall teams only taking into account specific sets. This is similar to what LonelyNess was saying about specific threat removal. Whether it is taking out something with a surprise move or overloading a certain pokemon with powerful sweepers (think Rain Dance teams), offensive teams with a PLAN can easily take down well made stall teams. Don't think your offensive team can just power through everything.

 

[Stagnant]

d2m, I completely agree that experimentation with new Pokemon should be happening but keep in mind this is "competitive" Pokemon community and some people are just out to win and the simply don't care how they win, which is a shame.

Your/ our best bet is to do the experimenting for ourselves and let others mimic our "original" ideas.

Stall isn't terriblely hard to break and in fact CB Rhydon can decimate stall teams given proper prediction.

Cb EQ after intimidate vs Hitmontop 252/252+ = 44.74% - 52.63%
Standard Top 62.17% - 73.36%

Pretty freakin powerful

 

[d2m]

d2m, I completely agree that experimentation new Pokemon should be happening but keep in mind this is "competitive" Pokemon and some people are just out to win and the simply don't care how they win, which is a shame.

Your/ our best bet is to do the experimenting for ourselves and let others mimic our "original" ideas.

Stall isn't terriblely hard to break and in fact CB Rhydon can decimate stall teams given proper prediction.

Cb EQ after intimidate vs Hitmontop 252/252+ = 44.74% - 52.63%
Standard Top 62.17% - 73.36%

Pretty freakin powerful

The shame is that those people are the ones that determine the course which this game takes. The smogon community is essentially the closest thing to an "official" community for competitive play. The ones in charge allow only people of high rating to have a say. Those that get high rating in UU play stall, thus those in high rating only use 10 or so different pokemon max. Thus, the community is being lead by those that have not even largely attempted to use the pokemon they're passing judgement on tier-wise.

While it's true prediciton is the only way to beat stall, stall requires almost no prediction to play "well". As has been touched on, stallers often play conservatively, which means that offensive teams have to play aggressively which is risky: one mispredict, you lose your only poke that can reliably take out X stall poke and GG. What really turned me on to UU play was the diversity in the ladder, but when Crobat and Yanmega were allowed (back) in, everything started to get more centralized, then with the removal of the suspects, stall has become ridiculously powerful and thus overused. I suppose it's the nature of every competitive game: find a team that works and use it, but when you're trying to balance the metagame as a whole, is that the approach you REALLY want to be taking? Are the people that copy successful teams and never innovate the people you want determining tiering?

 

[BurtonEarny]

The shame is that those people are the ones that determine the course which this game takes. The smogon community is essentially the closest thing to an "official" community for competitive play. The ones in charge allow only people of high rating to have a say. Those that get high rating in UU play stall, thus those in high rating only use 10 or so different pokemon max. Thus, the community is being lead by those that have not even largely attempted to use the pokemon they're passing judgement on tier-wise.
?

Well that assumes that the only team that player uses is that stall team with no alts or anything, and this is more than likely false. Anyway, dont they have some kind of written thing to check to make sure the player has decent knowledge of the meta? As it stands, stall isn't broken though it can be very difficult to break its very do-able, and neither is offense. Both have tools that restrict the others choice in pokes and reduce some pokemon to not being viable, thats true for every tier though. No tier can go without some centralization.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

You can't say the ONLY teams at the top are stall, because thats just false. At the very, very top is a stall player, but there are also offensive teams in the top ten, and even balanced teams. I've made the requirement, and even the leaderboard, this test using heavy offense (read: not bulky offense), and last round I made the requirements and got to vote on the suspects and at the time I used a balanced team. So to whine and complain that stall is super broken and that stall players are controlling the way the metagame goes is just wrong.

 

[Zog]

Prediction depends entirely on the opponent, too.

For example an offensive team used by a skilled player may frequently lose to a stall team used by an inexperienced player because people newer to the game tend to be hard to predict: often they'll stay in on a seemingly obvious super effective attack that you predicted would cause a switch, and end up returning a KO. Overprediction is pretty dangerous when using an offensive team. Either the opponent just follows a completely different plane to your predictions, or a skilled opponent outsmarts you. And either way, guessing what your opponent will do is often difficult. There's sort of a scale in which things will happen, in that a player of very low skill and a player of very high skill may do the same thing while a player of average skill does something different. For the guy using a defensive team, mind. If the other guy runs offensive then it's different.

Edit: Sort of woolly analogy. I'll give an example that's vaguely based on a battle I once had.

My friend is using a scarfed Magmortar. I currently have a Torterra out, and he knows I also have a flash fire Houndoom.

If he's a noob, he will probably use fire blast and I will be able to switch to my Houndoom for free flash fire boost. However, if he's half decent, he'll predict the switch and use focus blast to kill my Houndoom. Therefore I may predict this and have my Torterra use earthquake, predicting the focus blast and KOing Magmortar. But then again he may predict my prediction and use fire blast anyway, expecting me to expect him to use focus blast and thus getting a KO from Torterra. And then it all overlaps and gets complicated. So in those two situations, either his inexperience or skill combined with risk would win the situation while an average prediction ability would have lost. Pretty much.

 

[Kinder Surprise]

It isn't a question of whether it is possible to acquire the required rating needed to vote with offense. It is regarding the frequency of Stall teams in UU and how they are comparatively superior. Giving those who play it an advantage.

While heavy offense has to be centralized around breaking Stall, which has proven difficult. More so then I had imagined. I still don't think it can be called broken.

 

[Aerouille]

I remember rock blasting Tay's moltres on a sub with my Steelix. Unfortunately I only got 2 rocks or it could have been a kill.

He then proceeded to totally destroy my entire team.

*utilizes master prediction skill*

 

[WJC3688]

Nice rant Burton, I read the whole thing and I agree with most of what you said.

Personally I want an NU ladder because I don't see heavy stall being viable in that tier. Finally, a tier without a stupid pink blob to serve as stall's anchor. Then again, who knows, maybe people will devise some way to make heavy stall dominant even in NU (I hope not), but I think it's the tier with the lowest potential for stall to be successful. Nothing else even remotely compares to Blissey/Chansey for long term special walling, and I can't think of that many viable physical walls in NU, though it does contain over 100 pokes so I'm probably missing something.

Or, we could put Heracross and Dugtrio in UU. I'd love to see a stall team try and stop SD Heracross, stall already seems to have problems with SD Absol (the Pokemon which I most often sweep with against stall) who is considerably weaker with its strongest STAB move being only 70 BP. I doubt Hera will go down any time soon, but it's looking like Duggy might, and that sounds like it could be pretty fun too, with CB Duggy and a couple U-Turners (like U-Turn on Yanmega) stall players can say goodbye to their precious Chansey and Roserade.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Nice rant Burton, I read the whole thing and I agree with most of what you said.

Personally I want an NU ladder because I don't see heavy stall being viable in that tier. Finally, a tier without a stupid pink blob to serve as stall's anchor. Then again, who knows, maybe people will devise some way to make heavy stall dominant even in NU (I hope not), but I think it's the tier with the lowest potential for stall to be successful. Nothing else even remotely compares to Blissey/Chansey for long term special walling, and I can't think of that many viable physical walls in NU, though it does contain over 100 pokes so I'm probably missing something.

Or, we could put Heracross and Dugtrio in UU. I'd love to see a stall team try and stop SD Heracross, stall already seems to have problems with SD Absol (the Pokemon which I most often sweep with against stall) who is considerably weaker with its strongest STAB move being only 70 BP. I doubt Hera will go down any time soon, but it's looking like Duggy might, and that sounds like it could be pretty fun too, with CB Duggy and a couple U-Turners (like U-Turn on Yanmega) stall players can say goodbye to their precious Chansey and Roserade.

I've heard some people say the NU ladder is starting after we get the stats in a few days, and the OU and UU tiers get redone. I might be wrong. Can anyone confirm?

I don't think just 'putting' Dugtrio or Heracross in UU is a good idea. If they drop down to UU in the normal way, fair enough, but purposefully putting them there is not a good idea. I think Dugtrio will be UU in a few days though.

And, does EVERYBODY hate Chansey!? I quite like it. It's very useful, although that's the reason why people hate it...

 

[Boingo]

Speaking of SD Hera potentially walking all over Stall in UU, I wonder how SD Pinsir would fare. He may not get the sexy Fighting STAB, but he gets Mold Breaker, which means Rotom, Weezing & Uxie can't switch in on his EQs.

And I just want to add that IMO it's been a great month playing UU without Crobat and freaking Shaymin spoiling everyone's fun. Honchkrow never bothered me really.

And, does EVERYBODY hate Chansey!?

Personally, I dislike NFE (or "light") versions of OU standards in a metagame that's supposed to be different from OU.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Speaking of SD Hera potentially walking all over Stall in UU, I wonder how SD Pinsir would fare. He may not get the sexy Fighting STAB, but he gets Mold Breaker, which means Rotom, Weezing & Uxie can't switch in on his EQs.

And I just want to add that IMO it's been a great month playing UU without Crobat and freaking Shaymin spoiling everyone's fun. Honchkrow never bothered me really.

Personally, I dislike NFE (or "light") versions of OU standards in a metagame that's supposed to be different from OU.

Well, nobody said that UU has to be different to OU. That's not the point of the tier.

And, would you find Sableye annoying in NU, if it used similar movesets and stat spreads to Spiritomb and was very popular?

You have a point though. I suspect Chansey will be disliked by some for the reason you stated.

Also, I think another reason why Chansey is disliked is because it's nearly always the best choice for a special wall in someone's team (even Regice gets very little usage), and people may not like that, as they want to see variety. Blissey has a similar effect in OU.

 

[Aerouille]

Also, I think another reason why Chansey is disliked is because it's nearly always the best choice for a special wall in someone's team (even Regice gets very little usage), and people may not like that, as they want to see variety. Blissey has a similar effect in OU.

Not true in the least, sp.def variants of Registeel Umbreon and Clefable are all very viable alternatives, and they get the usage to show it.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The huge problem with Chansey is that it can't touch Mismagius AT ALL, and when your special wall is setup fodder for the best special attacker in the metagame, that causes problems.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Not true in the least, sp.def variants of Registeel Umbreon and Clefable are all very viable alternatives, and they get the usage to show it.

That's a point. I'm out of ideas. So is the only reason Chansey is disliked because it is similar to Blissey? If so, that's rather...

 

[Erazor]

Has anyone noticed that it's much easier to break the offensive characteristic than the DC? No wonder Stall is dominant, with all the hardest-hitting sweepers being banned.
I would love to see Heracross in UU, if only for a month, just to see what it does to stall.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Has anyone noticed that it's much easier to break the offensive characteristic than the DC? No wonder Stall is dominant, with all the hardest-hitting sweepers being banned.

The funny thing is that this is due to the nature of the Pokemon that make up Stall, as well as how stall teams are built. All of the Pokemon that make up a standard stall team have huge horrible gaping weaknesses, but a stall team is built to cover up those gaping weaknesses and create conditions in which you can prevent teams from destroying you. The walls themselves aren't broken, it's just that the things that wallbreak extremely effectively also happen to annihilate other teams too.

 

[-Zer0-]

Seriously Im right back at saying stall is broken. I think this needs to be addressed.

I havent found something close to a stall breaker. On my current team I have 2 stat uppers and a subseed torterra and Ive switched when I should and it doesnt do shit. Haze milotic just stops them dead and toxic works on a lot more in UU and once about 3 of your pokes are poisoned its over. Torterra is shut down by altaria who is a standard on stall. Ive seen so many people climb the ladder with standard stall, I dont know what youre talking about bad ass.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I don't think the stall in UU is that bad, but since it seems a lot of people will beg to differ with me, I'd suggest you all perhaps nominate some more defenisively orientated Pokemon, and be less inclined to ban the offensively orientated Pokemon. Or, work especially hard to counter stall teams (many have been doing this all along).

 

[Folgorio]

Yeah it is kind of interesting that shaymin and honchkrow were banned and they were 2 of the best stallbreakers in the metagame. Likewise crobat didn't do too badly against stall but one could argue that stall took a bigger loss after crobat's ban.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Everyone is worrying about what Hera will do to the metagame, but I think Dugtrio will have a much bigger impact, and not just to stall. Dugtrio will be able to 2ko the most used special walls, Chansey, Registeel, and Clefable (Umbreon is going to OU I reckon), clearing the path for an easy sweep with one of the many super powerful special sweepers in UU. Steelix and Regirock are taken down by Duggy (well, Steelix CAN Gyro ball for big damage), leaving you weak to Drapion and ect. It'll also probably have a big effect of offense too, as with it's speed it'll be able to take out the premier wallbreakers like Blaziken, Magmortar and Nidoking, and also some sweepers like Ninetales, Houndoom, Roserade, Typhlosion, Drapion, Rhydon, Arcanine, Toxicroak and Absol without batting an eye. AND, Duggy is more likely than Hera to fall.

 

[WJC3688]

Not true in the least, sp.def variants of Registeel Umbreon and Clefable are all very viable alternatives, and they get the usage to show it.

Registeel lacks Chansey's reliable recovery and can't wall fire types.

Umbreon's biggest disadvantage is the inability to stop Yanmega.

Clefable's defenses are just plain worse. 95 Hp / 90 SpD does not at all match up against 250 Hp / 105 SpD.

The huge problem with Chansey is that it can't touch Mismagius AT ALL, and when your special wall is setup fodder for the best special attacker in the metagame, that causes problems.

That's why the cookie-cutter stall teams use Altaria as an alternate special wall, beating Mismagius with Perish Song or Dragon Claw.

Guys i understand why everyone wants to put heracross in UU; but seriously whats the point? It'll just get banned the next day for being extremely overpowered. And yes it will be extremely overpowered; really nothing except maybe weezing can actually stop it. Trust me though if anyone would like to see stall get absolutely manhandled its me; but you got to be reasonable to the stall players too.

It would stay in UU for at least a month. A month of stall getting raped? Sounds like fun to me. And while you may not be able to fully wall it, offense teams would actually be able to revenge it, something which stall cannot do. But Hera's not coming down anytime soon anyways, so whatever.

I agree that Dugtrio could potentially have a huge effect on the metagame, both on stall and offense teams, but the cool thing about it is, there's about 10 stall viable Pokes, max, and there's what, 40 something, maybe more, viable offense Pokes. Furthermore, stall teams rely on every member of their team being healthy, much moreso than offense teams. So if Dugtrio makes one or two stall Pokes non-viable, he can easily make stall itself non-viable; whereas if he makes several offense Pokes non-viable, it will not be much of a loss, because offense will still have plenty of other options available.

 

[Folgorio]

Duggy would be something id be really glad to see in UU. It's not like stall teams will get completely demolished like some people are saying though. Shed shells do exist you know(not suggesting you equip every pokemon with it just suggesting the possibility). Also you make it seem as though dugtrio is some sort of beast. It has what base 80 attack? that isnt enough to KO a lot of the pokes in UU stall teams. Hell the only thing i can see it threatening is...what weakened pokes and chansey? regardless the thing is so frail im sure it won't be as good as we are making it to be, but I'd still love seeing how much damage it can do to the metagame.