I hope this is right... It makes beating missy pretty simple.
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np: UU - Here It Goes Again
- Thread starter Caelum
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It's possible, I'm just repeating what I've seen said in other parts of these forums, where someone had said they tested it out him-/herself. I thought I had seen it posted in the current DPPt research thread, but I don't see it there now... Guess I'll check it out myself and post again with the results.
*EDIT*
Turns out Arael is right, Foresight does require the target to switch out, not either Pokemon.
It is not broken, but yea it is very good. Taunt Drapion/Missy, Encore Clefable, Foresight RS Hitmontop, SD Absol, Mixed Blaziken, etc.. are all good checks or counters to stall. You just have to take out some of the most vital parts of a stall team like Haze Milotic, Anti-Spinner, or Hitmontop early to gain an advantage. It might just takes some adaptations for other team types to rise to counter stall and still win against other team types. If overall consensus thinks stall is real broken, then I say put Roserade as a suspect. It is ran in almost all stall teams because of spikes and have very good offensive capabilities...
It is extremely good, and there are maybe 8 pokemon you chose from to build a team, all with precisely the same sets. It requires no innovation and no real skill (if you could call it that) to run. People shouldn't be rewarded for using nearly identical teams over and over.
erhem, you should be rewarded for that. i have been at around 1600 all the test with my bulky offense team. i tested stall and simply could not do it. i applaud those who reach 16 or 1700 with stall teams. i dont care if they're exactly the same-with all the stallbreakers out there, it's quite easy to lose. i can never manage over 1500 with a stall account.
in other news, use subseed torterra! 3 pokemon that previously shat all over it are now suspects, and it has really, really shined. overgrow usually gives you a chance to fire off one or two ridiculous wood hammers before killing itself. 95/108/85 defenses are also fantastic, and he also has that amazing stab ground to work with. with shaymin gone, you'll most likely have to stall out his wood hammer recoil if you face a rock polish set. did i forget to mention he has attack that is equal to lucario's?
do you remember that extremely specially bulky sd shaymin eo ut mortus ran? venusaur can run a set just like that, albeit less effectively, but it can still do the things it needs to-counter mismagius, help against stall, lure in chansey, etc. grass types in general got a huge boost with honch, shaymin, and most of all crobat banned. i suggest you try one of the uu grassers out!
in other news, use subseed torterra! 3 pokemon that previously shat all over it are now suspects, and it has really, really shined. overgrow usually gives you a chance to fire off one or two ridiculous wood hammers before killing itself. 95/108/85 defenses are also fantastic, and he also has that amazing stab ground to work with. with shaymin gone, you'll most likely have to stall out his wood hammer recoil if you face a rock polish set. did i forget to mention he has attack that is equal to lucario's?
do you remember that extremely specially bulky sd shaymin eo ut mortus ran? venusaur can run a set just like that, albeit less effectively, but it can still do the things it needs to-counter mismagius, help against stall, lure in chansey, etc. grass types in general got a huge boost with honch, shaymin, and most of all crobat banned. i suggest you try one of the uu grassers out!
Bad ass is correct...you have to have a certain mindset when playing stall. Its not for everyone, and requires some long term thinking in order to beat those heavy offensive teams. It's not broken at all, a well crafted offensive team should in theory beat the standard stall teams you see around.
how to beat stall: dont be a dumbass. i have beaten a very good stall player using one of the best uu stall teams atm, and i used a sunny day team. the point of that isnt to brag (heh), but you can beat stall with a team that isnt anti-stall. stall players tend to play cautiously, therefore you play smartly, but recklessly. if you have your roserade out against a slowbro, they aren't staying in. make the double switch to something that can beat the opposing chansey. you must also switch it up. you cant switch roserade out of slowbro every time...your opponent will say "hmm, why dont i keep slowbro in and ohko his blaziken!". try to keep a good mix of doing the obvious play and predicting and doing the double switch. i cant stress this enough, to beat stall you have to predict. in my example of a match, i distinctly remember rock sliding a hitmontop instead of power whipping him, an example that you must make the obvious moves at times. in my battle example, i also only had one pokemon that could beat chansey.
it helps to have something that cam simply manhandle its way through stall, like blaziken. definitely not required, but helped. you can't always take out their chansey by bringing in your absol and not going back to your slowbro...sometimes you gotta power your way through stall! i hope this post explained that your team doesnt have to be 6 mixed sweepers with extremely high attack and special attack scores with amazing movepools! you can use common sense!
edit:
it helps to have something that cam simply manhandle its way through stall, like blaziken. definitely not required, but helped. you can't always take out their chansey by bringing in your absol and not going back to your slowbro...sometimes you gotta power your way through stall! i hope this post explained that your team doesnt have to be 6 mixed sweepers with extremely high attack and special attack scores with amazing movepools! you can use common sense!
edit:
ummmm...the same thing is true in ou? if your team is weak against stall in ou, many teams will put on a mixape/mence. i want to use my heatran over my infernape but then i realized-olol walled by blissey loses to stall. then i thought, hey, lets ban blissey!
I don't necessarily think stall is broken, but it's annoying because it centralizes the metagame, since (as people have said) there are probably 10 Pokemon max that you will ever see on a stall team, and likewise there are probably 10 Pokemon max which are seriously useful when playing against stall. Stall teams themselves are unoriginal, playing stall may require skill, but at this point I don't think it can be denied that the teams themselves are horribly redundant; likewise when trying to build an offensive team, I am often frustrated because I'll come up with a team then realize "crap I can't beat stall with this team" and have to go back and add in yet another Blaziken or SD Absol just because of all the cookie-cutter stall teams. I want to be free to use Ninetales or Houndoom over Blaziken as opposed to trying use one of those Pokemon and then realizing "olol walled by chansey loses to stall" and being forced to go back to using Blaziken in order to stay competitive.
I'd much rather ban Chansey. Chansey isn't technically broken, but then again I don't think Roserade (or any individual stall poke) is either, and I would really love to see a stall team try to function without its precious pink blob.
I'd also love to see stall function without Chansey, probably having to resort to things like Slowking and Registeel together to adequetly special wall.
What also helps vs stall is sticking Taunt on pokemon. Like you said, Houndoom is walled by Chansey. But if you stick Taunt on it, and providing you have +2 as it switches in, you can beat it and proceed to win, which is usually what happens when stall loses Chansey.
What also helps vs stall is sticking Taunt on pokemon. Like you said, Houndoom is walled by Chansey. But if you stick Taunt on it, and providing you have +2 as it switches in, you can beat it and proceed to win, which is usually what happens when stall loses Chansey.
Chansey is not required in UU stall. Without Chansey, to counter some special threats, you need good resistances that can stop or hinder special threats like Houndoom, Espeon, Roserade, Yanmega, etc, have good synergy, or just play well to keep those threats out like my favorite: Phazing.
If your all so agry that stall ruins the metagame, the best way to solve this is to ladder with a UU stall team in OU. Encourage your friends to do it. If you can raise even one important member into OU, stall becomes that much worse. Although be carfful that doing that may mean something else may drop into this tier...porygon-z, alakazam, heracross, creessilia...use them all!
I believe a lot of stall teams dont have chansey.
it was an analogy in a way. in uu, there are pokemon chansey doesnt make viable. in ou, there are pokemon blissey doesnt make viable. what i was saying was that if your team is stall weak in ou (much like in uu), you must go back and fix that problem by adding a mixmence (blaziken) or SD Absol (SDLuke). if you replace the things you said with their ou counterparts, it all fits.
Last I checked. 2 checks ain't shit.
People don't use Quagsire anyway and Clefable usage isn't very high at all period.
Must I provide evidence of Wailreins brokeness? Is it not obvious? Here-
1) Stallrein variant of Wailrein when used in conjuncture with everlasting Hail effect is a viable stratagy in the overpowered Over-Used Metagame. Stallrein is UU yet can survive and even, sweep in OU conditions.
2) Using a Hail team got... ME to 1651 Cre in the UU ladder after the reformation and before any bans to BL took place. Me, for Christ sake.
3) It is obvious that Wailrein is fully capable of sweeping a significant portion of the UU metagame. This has been proven countless times. Whole teams can be swept by Wailrein using his famous Stallrein set in tandem with his generous base status and ample ability to replenish HP and protecting itself from attack. Laying down Toxic Spikes and bringing in Stallrein when an opportunity presents itself can end whole teams. Fact.
Wailrein with Toxic or Tspikes layed down will eventually kill Quagsire. Encore will force a switch. Big deal. Quagsire could encore Blizzard cuz Wailrein will be faster then Quagsire 90% of the time. Clefable is hands down the best counter to Stallrein. And that would require Clefable to go out of it's way to be customized to counter Stallrein. When it could use a possibley more effective set that would yield a less then favorable result when fighting Stallrein in Hail.
Look, I was just throwing out the obvious, it wasn't supposed to be an entire dissertation on stallrein, but if you really want one, here:
Clefable's Encore set is the best there is and can be extremely varied. It can be used on the "Blissey with Weight Loss" set, the actual Encore set, the Toxic Orb set, or (although not as well) the Calm Mind set without much negative effect. Being completely immune to toxic and able to sponge Blizzards all day means Walrein can't do anything.
Quagsire can safely switch in to any Walrein running Surf >> Blizzard and Encore any one of his moves. Again, best used in conjunction with Rest or Aromatherapy support.
Any sub or sleep talk sweeper that can take a Blizzard/Surf (Sub Punch Hariyama, any Sub CMer) can set up on Walrein. Sub prevents toxic, in the case of SubCMers, after 1-2 CMs the sub quits breaking, Walrein runs out of Blizzards, sweeps. Crotomb also deserves a mention here because everyone and their mom is running him. The hail damage is mitigated because all sub CMers carry Leftovers.
Taking away Hail destroys Stallrein. Any Sunny Day, Rain Dance, or Sandstorm user will make him worthless. Obviously it requires taking out Snover, but due to his pathetic stats as a NFE, it's rather easy. Using snover on your team means you lose valuble coverage and Early-game momentum thanks to having a pretty useless lead. All of the BL conditions specify "Common Battle conditions" which hail is not.
Now lets move on to the most obvious one: Taunt. Any taunt user can switch in on any move not named Toxic, then proceed to Taunt stallrein, making him useless. Argubly the best at this would be a Taunt/SD/EQ/NS Drapion. He can switch in to any move (immune to poison), Taunt, SD on the switch, and sweep.
Stallrein doesn't have a ton of safe switch ins. Status destroys stallrein, one paralysis means the set fails, poison means the set fails, sleep means the set fails, so he can't switch in on status attacks that most walls carry, not to mention Trick, plus with people running large power sweepers like Mismagius with Tbolt (SubCM also gets SE HP Fighting), Roserade, Specstile, etc that have Super Effective moves, Stallrein risks being killed on the switch.
+2 Absol Superpower vs Stallrein set: (168.70% - 198.84%)
Mixkin (76 Atk) Superpower vs Stallrein: (95.65% - 113.04%)
252 SpA Sceptile (with no item) Leaf Storm vs Stallrein: (125.22% - 147.83%)
LO Roserade Leaf Storm vs Stallrein: (183.19% - 216.23%)
Mismagius (with Leftovers) T-bolt vs Stallrein: (56.81% - 67.25%) (always 2HKO)
Rotom (with Leftovers) T-bolt vs Stallrein: (78.84% - 93.91%) (always 2HKO)
Specs Espeon Psychic vs Stallrein: (76.52% - 90.43%) (always 2HKO).
0 Atk Hitmontop CC vs Stallrein: (50.43% - 59.71%) (83% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers 100% with SR).
Scarfmonlee CC vs Stallrein: (92.17% - 108.41%)
All of the above 1-2HKO Stallrein and are extremely common sweepers. He cannot come in against any of the above and a lot more, I'm just tired and don't want to run the calcs for every UU sweeper.
He can really only switch in on walls, and some walls like Registeel can literally out-stall stallrein (Especially the Curse/Sleep talk set). Any wall immune to toxic (or already statused) and resistant to surf/Blizzard can actually PP stall him until protect is down or he runs out of his offensive move, thus becoming setup fodder.
If you let him set up on you, that's your fault in strategy. If your team has no way through one or more pokes to counter an obvious strategy like this, that's your fault in teambuilding. Does this get my point across?
I fully admit my team is weak to stall, but not wanting to use Blaziken (or stall, I have these perceptions of overpoweredness bound into me, even though something isn't objectively overpowered I still don't want to use it) means I really have no chance. These "double switches" and stuff only work to the advantage of the stall team. Stall teams tend to carry more residual damage, thus your constant switching is undermining your offense. Furthermore, they can simply switch with you. You double switch and bring an Absol in on their Chansey, they bring in Spiritomb or Altaria or Steelix or Hitmontop or something to take the Superpower and heal up while you swap back out, threaten you, or cripple you with status.
Spiritomb, I think, is the root of a lot of problems. I really wanted to nominate it for the defensive characteristic, but being newer and also not seeing it nominated anywhere else discouraged me. Really, a Spiritomb with Rest/WoW/CM/DP and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell support is unbreakable under most circumstances. 3 immunities, Pressure, and large defensive stats mean barely anything can actually touch it, much less KO it. With Bold and Def EVs complemented by CM boosts to SpD, there's really nothing that can consistently take it down. It requires either specialized (ie Foresight Hitmontop) or Ridiculously powerful (something +2 or more) attacks to take down, while preventing many of them from achieving that.
I'd like to know whether it would be sensible to release a new UU list in the coming days or wait until this test is over.
EDIT: After thinking about it a bit, I'll release both the OU and UU lists next month as usual. Then whoever updates the ban list for UU in Shoddy can do so at whatever appropriate time he deems.
EDIT: After thinking about it a bit, I'll release both the OU and UU lists next month as usual. Then whoever updates the ban list for UU in Shoddy can do so at whatever appropriate time he deems.
Sure plenty of moves can easily KO Stallrein from most of UU's best sweepers, but the point of Stallrein is that it only needs one turn to set up a sub and start the 32 turn stall cycle. Sure, it can't go one on one vs. all these sweepers, but that is not the point. You're using it wrong. And while these sweepers switch in and try to KO it they get worn down by hail, Toxic Spikes, and SR/Spikes if they switch or Walrein uses Roar.
I personally don't agree that Stallrein is broken. It does require quite a bit of support from the team (Snover, Toxic Spikes) to be effective at all. From my experience Stallrein has a difficult time stalling out a significant portion of the metagame because the conditions it needs are not common at all, with Snover being such a useless poke and grouded poisons everywhere. Besides needing very specific conditions, it has a decent amount of counters. Encore and Taunt users who can take a few special hits. This includes things like Clefable, Quagsire, Drapion, Mismagius and Azumarill who commonly run those moves and can mess up Stallrein.
| Azumarill | Move | Other (6) | < 3.9 |
Just want to point out that Encore is lost somewhere in that 4%
Defencive Missies aren't exactly common either
Yeah, w/o toxic spikes walrein doesn't do his job nearly as well. I've had to face a couple and both times they lost because they didn't have the toxic support it needs. Milotic beats wallrein 1 v. 1 even in hail with no toxic support since Haze last longer than half of Walrein's moveset. Rest talk versions do even better since it covers toxic versions. Milotic is just one very common example that you dont NEED the ability to deal massive damage to Walrein to beat it.
@ d2m - you are exactly right, but it is this double switching that stops any residual damage from piling up on you. yea, it sounds crazy, but thats how you have to play to beat stall! hmm, i have something hard-walled or beaten by roserade. therefore, you're probably going to roserade to get up some free spikes, right? i remember one match i had in which i had a uxie out vs a hariyama. instead of getting up some SR of my own, or psychicing, i uturned out of the steelix switch in and managed to keep SR off the field for the whole match. the point of the double switch is, if you keep mixing up what you do, you will eventually score a kill on an important member of the stall team. but yes, d2m, you are exactly right. i guess what i didnt make clear was the fact that you can utilize the double switch / move prediction to keep residual damage off the field.
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