I didn't mention Reflect to say that it helps Chansey survive MixDoom after a Honchkrow's Pursuit. I just meant that you can use it first instead of WoW if you think your opponent has Houndoom and is expecting a WoW, so it doesn't get the Flash Fire boost.
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NP: UU - Dragonfly
- Thread starter reachzero
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I agree with you here to some extent, which is another reason why I think Rhyperior will have an important niche to fill in UU.
I'm also keen on seeing Raikou and Froslass get retested sometime in the near future though it may be a while yet. With three excellent Ground types introduced since its departure, and a few others getting notable upgrades to make them more viable, I can see Raikou being a more acceptable and manageable threat now. As for Froslass, it never really got an opportunity to show its actual potential in an Abomasnow-less metagame, and that may be an important factor.
That isn't why it was banned at all. Froslass was banned for being the only Pokemon who can do SO much with just one moveset, and do it incredibly well and fast. With the set Taunt/Destiny Bond/Spikes/Ice Beam, you can stop other Pokemon from setting up if they use a set up move, automatically get two layers of spikes up, and take out the opponents Pokemon making it 5v5 with spikes on their side of the field. Broken in UU regardless of what has changed (and more so since Crobat and Roserade, the two best answers to it, are gone). Snow Cloak was just icing on the cake.
Meh, Moltres still runs through it, IMO.
I agree with you here. It also will give Duggy a spike in usage, IMO. Donphan should be able to take at least one hit from all versions, and Rhyperior should be a solid check minus HP Grass. You have to factor in all the existing threats - Quagsire, Torterra - as well. It'll still be quite good, but manageable.
Honestly, Ambipom stops it most of the time. It'll only get up one set at most.
haunter
Banned deucer.
I agree that Raikou may be given a second chance, though both Rhyperior and Donphan are likely OHKO'd by a +1 hidden power grass. Dugtrio would be another weapon against it and I'm sure that with Raikou around its usage would rise massively.
I also agree with Heysup about Froslass, as snow cloak was just a bonus for it, and it would still be an awesome (and almost uncounterable) lead even without the hail.
Ambipom doesn't enjoy stab ice beam and taunting Froslass woudl be quite risky for something as frail as Ambipom is.
Alright. What will Ambipom use, though? Fake out, Return, Brick Break... none of those hit. Ice punch doesn't do much. So Ambipom is going to U-Turn and kill it? I doubt it.
It cannot do all of that in a single game unless the opponent is terrible. Ambipom will outspeed and 2HKO with Payback/Pursuit, which means Froslass only gets a single layer of Spikes up OR takes Ambipom with her with a first-turn Destiny Bond. And as frail as Ambipom is, it will not die from Ice Beam (max 64%) even considering two turns of LO recoil thanks to Froslass' subpar base 80 SAtk. Against Scarf Moltres, the same situation applies, while against non-Scarf she can get either two layers up, or one and DBond Moltres. Regirock leads are tricky as well. If Froslass Taunts, Regirock might open with Rock Slide/Stone Edge, and then she's left in the same situation as Ambipom. If she doesn't Taunt, then there's a chance that it'll get Stealth Rocks up, although now she can get all three layers up (but cannot use DBond) or two layers up and a kill. You can't even use her as a non-lead, since SR will most likely break her Sash, and she's so frail she'll have a hard time coming in even on resisted hits.
Froslass is base 110 speed. The argument is it's too good as a suicide lead. Let's see what in UU is faster:
Electrode: Taunts it making it's setup potential useless. 0 sets of spikes.
Swellow: Pursuit 2HKOs, BB + U-turn will 2HKO, but Ice Beam OHKOs it right back, so it's not a good answer. Still, 1 set of spikes max.
Alakazam: OHKO's with Shadow Ball or Psychic, can Taunt it. Ice Beam fails to OHKO. 1 set w/o Taunt, 0 sets w/ Taunt.
Dugtrio: Can 2HKO with SE, but Ice Beam is an OHKO. 1 set max.
Sceptile: Not a lead, but can 2HKO it with Ice Beam having a chance of OHKOing in return. 1 set Max.
Ambipom: Taunt stops Froslass cold, outsped and 2HKO'd with Payback or Pursuit. 1 set max w/o Taunt.
Espeon: Speed ties with Froslass and can OHKO with Shadow Ball.
All of this is not even mentioning priority or the fact Donphan is an excellent spinner to get rid of them. I'd say give Froslass another go.
MM87: While you're right about her being frail and SR being bad to her, she is still a levitating ghost and thus has 3 immunities to come in on, and with her speed and decent SpA, she can be a fine sweeper on a hail team and excellent Spin blocker against Donphan.
Electrode: Taunts it making it's setup potential useless. 0 sets of spikes.
Swellow: Pursuit 2HKOs, BB + U-turn will 2HKO, but Ice Beam OHKOs it right back, so it's not a good answer. Still, 1 set of spikes max.
Alakazam: OHKO's with Shadow Ball or Psychic, can Taunt it. Ice Beam fails to OHKO. 1 set w/o Taunt, 0 sets w/ Taunt.
Dugtrio: Can 2HKO with SE, but Ice Beam is an OHKO. 1 set max.
Sceptile: Not a lead, but can 2HKO it with Ice Beam having a chance of OHKOing in return. 1 set Max.
Ambipom: Taunt stops Froslass cold, outsped and 2HKO'd with Payback or Pursuit. 1 set max w/o Taunt.
Espeon: Speed ties with Froslass and can OHKO with Shadow Ball.
All of this is not even mentioning priority or the fact Donphan is an excellent spinner to get rid of them. I'd say give Froslass another go.
MM87: While you're right about her being frail and SR being bad to her, she is still a levitating ghost and thus has 3 immunities to come in on, and with her speed and decent SpA, she can be a fine sweeper on a hail team and excellent Spin blocker against Donphan.
I know that's not the main reason why it was banned, and remember that I was one of those that voted BL, although incidentally I didn't rate it that much as a lead. I also agree that it probably won't end up being that much of a factor, but we have to remain open-minded about these things as much as possible. As far as Froslass in Hail was concerned, the main factor wasn't Snow Cloak IMO, but the fact that it was just about the perfect fit to such a team with its moves and typing, regardless of whether it could evade attacks or not. The real reason I want it retesting is the fact that nearly half of the voters disagreed on the outcome.
Though what you said about Froslass was slightly wrong. Qwilfish has the exact same 3-move combo, albeit slower with no immunities, and Cacturne is barely worth mentioning at all really. Froslass was always best at it overall though.
True, but in general Rhyperior would really help for checking Flying types aggressively, particularly Honchkrow. Besides, I've always found Moltres to be the easiest to check/counter. It isn't that fast, has no priority and has a larger subset of counters, a number of which aren't as easily Dugtrio'd or even Magneton'd.
And I agree that Ambipom with Pursuit always made Froslass somewhat risky as a lead. So what if you were guaranteed a layer of Spikes (though not entirely true as Ambipom may have Taunt) when that is all you get whilst Ambipom has a guaranteed kill? One more Pokemon >> one layer of Spikes always IMO.
@d2m: Froslass does not Levitate.
The best Moltres can muster (Modest Specs HP Grass/Water) isn't even a 2HKO against 4/0/Adamant Rhyperior. And most Moltres run HP Fighting/Ice instead, which does half as much.
Also, @d2m, as a NON-LEVITATING ghost with frail defenses, Frosslass does very little to stop Donphan from spinning, as Don's Earthquake makes short work of Frosslass. This is why most Hail teams in standard run Rotom-F instead of or in addition to Frosslass.
I have never seen any Moltres run either one of those. What the hell does Ice cover? Dragon? The only one of those it has to worry about is Altaria. Fire Blast + Air Slash + Grass is neutral on everything, with the last spot usually being Roost.
It's still not a Rhyperior counter, but it never runs those 2 HPs.
wat da fuk wildfire wat damage calc are you using
non-boosted timid moltres hp grass / water vs 0/0 solid rock rhyperior
349 Atk vs 146 Def & 371 HP (70 Base Power): 360 - 426 (97.04% - 114.82%)
timid froslass ice beam vs 252/0 donphan (most don't run max hp now because 52/200 or whatever is better for physical defense)
259 Atk vs 156 Def & 384 HP (95 Base Power): 338 - 402 (88.02% - 104.69%)
non-boosted timid moltres hp grass / water vs 0/0 solid rock rhyperior
349 Atk vs 146 Def & 371 HP (70 Base Power): 360 - 426 (97.04% - 114.82%)
timid froslass ice beam vs 252/0 donphan (most don't run max hp now because 52/200 or whatever is better for physical defense)
259 Atk vs 156 Def & 384 HP (95 Base Power): 338 - 402 (88.02% - 104.69%)
MS:
You don't get it at all. HeYsUp's argument was Froslass was BL because of spike support. I pointed out there are plenty of fast leads that stop spikes or can outspeed and kill it.
In addition to that, as a suicide lead (which is the set we're talking about) it's main priority is to get spikes up, so sticking Taunt on Ambipom (where it is not commonly enough seen) or other unorthodox pokes can catch a Froslass user by surprise.
Froslass, in the context of my arguments, is used as a suicide lead, so Donphan being able to spin well against the majority of the tier has nothing to do with Froslass. Levitate was my bad, I get her mixed up sometimes, and you seem to reiterate my point that she's a good hail sweeper.
You don't get it at all. HeYsUp's argument was Froslass was BL because of spike support. I pointed out there are plenty of fast leads that stop spikes or can outspeed and kill it.
In addition to that, as a suicide lead (which is the set we're talking about) it's main priority is to get spikes up, so sticking Taunt on Ambipom (where it is not commonly enough seen) or other unorthodox pokes can catch a Froslass user by surprise.
Froslass, in the context of my arguments, is used as a suicide lead, so Donphan being able to spin well against the majority of the tier has nothing to do with Froslass. Levitate was my bad, I get her mixed up sometimes, and you seem to reiterate my point that she's a good hail sweeper.
We needed Earthpower more than ever.
Eruption is a terrific move but gets hampered by SR to easily, and not only that Ambipom leads really hurt him badly.
I suppose you can predict the obvious Fake out and switch but still... It only ends up hurting him.
It's sad because he's my favorite pokemon. I remember bragging to my brother that my fav was tearing UU apart. His favorite was Feraligatr and I remember mocking him.
Now look at us. Gatr's a beast.
Eruption is a terrific move but gets hampered by SR to easily, and not only that Ambipom leads really hurt him badly.
I suppose you can predict the obvious Fake out and switch but still... It only ends up hurting him.
It's sad because he's my favorite pokemon. I remember bragging to my brother that my fav was tearing UU apart. His favorite was Feraligatr and I remember mocking him.
Now look at us. Gatr's a beast.
Only if Moltres is already in. A predicted switch + Stone Edge = bad times for Moltres.
Moltres is usually choiced, so rhyperior just has to come in on the air slash or fire blast. to force a switch (and set up SR, to stop moltres from coming back for a while). That being said it's still much better against physical fliers, as it takes next to nothing from Honchkrow (tank set is never 3HKOd by superpower due to leftovers)
Actually Moltres is usually carrying Life Orb with Roost. I barely see any Choiced Moltres.
To voice my opinion on these new UUs, only Alakazam will make a huge impact. Although I won't be surprised to see the rise of Pursuit Spiritomb after these have been implemented. Rhyperior cannot blow by anything and the common physical walls can take on Rhyperior. Unfortunately, an unSTABBed Megahorn is not enough to hurt Tangrowth and Slowbro. Milotic seems like the best counter and with Roserade gone, Milotic will dominate this tier.
To voice my opinion on these new UUs, only Alakazam will make a huge impact. Although I won't be surprised to see the rise of Pursuit Spiritomb after these have been implemented. Rhyperior cannot blow by anything and the common physical walls can take on Rhyperior. Unfortunately, an unSTABBed Megahorn is not enough to hurt Tangrowth and Slowbro. Milotic seems like the best counter and with Roserade gone, Milotic will dominate this tier.
cb megahorn vs max/max+ tangrowth 624 Atk vs 383 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 282 - 332 (69.80% - 82.18%)
cb megahorn vs max/max+ slowbro 624 Atk vs 350 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 306 - 362 (77.66% - 91.88%)
it also outspeeds both of them
milotic will be a decent rhyperior counter but cb attacks hurt...
roserade leaving will just mean other grass types show up more. venusaur can run a bulky LO set with the same moves as roserade, sceptile, toxicroak, etc etc.
| Moltres | Item | Choice Scarf | 30.7 |
| Moltres | Item | Life Orb | 29.5 |
| Moltres | Item | Leftovers | 28.9 |
| Moltres | Move | HP-Grass | 29.9 |
edit: yeah i actually agree with heysup's assertion that rhyperior is being underhyped. it's definitely nowhere near broken but i think the rather large amount of overhype (omg its so strong !!! bl !!!) is causing a backlash. sounds like a contradiction (underhyped + overhyped) but you should know what i mean?
cb megahorn vs max/max+ slowbro 624 Atk vs 350 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 306 - 362 (77.66% - 91.88%)
it also outspeeds both of them
milotic will be a decent rhyperior counter but cb attacks hurt...
roserade leaving will just mean other grass types show up more. venusaur can run a bulky LO set with the same moves as roserade, sceptile, toxicroak, etc etc.
| Moltres | Item | Choice Scarf | 30.7 |
| Moltres | Item | Life Orb | 29.5 |
| Moltres | Item | Leftovers | 28.9 |
| Moltres | Move | HP-Grass | 29.9 |
edit: yeah i actually agree with heysup's assertion that rhyperior is being underhyped. it's definitely nowhere near broken but i think the rather large amount of overhype (omg its so strong !!! bl !!!) is causing a backlash. sounds like a contradiction (underhyped + overhyped) but you should know what i mean?
At d2m:
Your arguments were almost ALL irrelevant, except for one which proves my point further.
Electrode is the only Pokemon you listed that has a niche in the lead slot of a team. All of the other Pokemon you listed DON'T function well as leads. The "overall (all of the reasons it was banned add up to this)" reason Froslass was suspected and banned was because it forced you to use a Scarfed Sleeper or Crobat to stop spikes from getting up first turn. This fulfilled the support characteristic in every way, because either it fills the support characteristic from setting up Spikes, or it fills it by forcing you to use a Scarf Sleep move first turn, which is easily avoidable with Chansey everywhere, meaning it could just set up spikes later while you have no chance of doing anything at all.
On top of this, it can spin block for itself so Donphan being able to spin is a pretty argument, especially when it gets Rocked by Ice Beam. Otherwise it has to come in after spikes are set up and take a ton of damage while trying to spin...Good Luck with that. That's the sprinkles on the icing I guess, considering I already said Snow Cloak was the icing :)
EDIT:
I also think Rhyperior is being 'underhyped' again. I don't want to list the calcs (I did a lot last night) so you can just believe me or do them yourself, but with the right EVs in the Sand, Rhyperior 2HKOes Milotic (252/252+) 47% (I think, it might be more...) of the time with an unboosted EQ, while also not being OHKOed by Surf (even after a Sub). So Rhyperior can come in on one of the millions of Pokemon it can come in on, set up a Substitute, let Milotic come in, and spam Earthquake on it, and possibly even 2HKO it. This opens up a hole for a shit ton of Pokemon.
Taking Rhyperior down in the Sand is going to be next to impossible without Milotic as well.
Your arguments were almost ALL irrelevant, except for one which proves my point further.
Electrode is the only Pokemon you listed that has a niche in the lead slot of a team. All of the other Pokemon you listed DON'T function well as leads. The "overall (all of the reasons it was banned add up to this)" reason Froslass was suspected and banned was because it forced you to use a Scarfed Sleeper or Crobat to stop spikes from getting up first turn. This fulfilled the support characteristic in every way, because either it fills the support characteristic from setting up Spikes, or it fills it by forcing you to use a Scarf Sleep move first turn, which is easily avoidable with Chansey everywhere, meaning it could just set up spikes later while you have no chance of doing anything at all.
On top of this, it can spin block for itself so Donphan being able to spin is a pretty argument, especially when it gets Rocked by Ice Beam. Otherwise it has to come in after spikes are set up and take a ton of damage while trying to spin...Good Luck with that. That's the sprinkles on the icing I guess, considering I already said Snow Cloak was the icing :)
EDIT:
I also think Rhyperior is being 'underhyped' again. I don't want to list the calcs (I did a lot last night) so you can just believe me or do them yourself, but with the right EVs in the Sand, Rhyperior 2HKOes Milotic (252/252+) 47% (I think, it might be more...) of the time with an unboosted EQ, while also not being OHKOed by Surf (even after a Sub). So Rhyperior can come in on one of the millions of Pokemon it can come in on, set up a Substitute, let Milotic come in, and spam Earthquake on it, and possibly even 2HKO it. This opens up a hole for a shit ton of Pokemon.
Taking Rhyperior down in the Sand is going to be next to impossible without Milotic as well.
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