NP: UU - Dragonfly

[Heysup]

Donphan may be one of the most common spinners, but it's not the only one. Also, just like with Mismagius and the others, if the Donphan user predicts the switch-in, an Assurance or Earthquake (in the case of Froslass) will deal massive damage to Froslass, and it's likely to KO since Froslass will rarely set up multiple layers of Spikes unscathed. Hitmontop is also quite popular, and has decent special bulk to take Ice Beams. Blastoise, Kabutops, and Cloyster all learn Rapid Spin as well as resisting Ice Beam (Cloyster 4x resists), and the prior two have access to priority to avoid being finished off by Destiny Bond.

My point, as it stands, is that Donphan is the (arguably) most effective and undeniably common spinner. That's good news for Froslass.

Sure, but then you could say that Scarfed sleep is much riskier in this metagame now because of Dugtrio, if we want to continue down that road. Not to mention that Scarfed sleep is already risky enough as it is. Just don't try turning that into another instance where Froslass has potentially improved, because that is completely missing the point.

How is that even remotely missing the point? The point IS that Froslass improved. In fact you seem to be doing what you accuse me of later in your post, 'twisting the facts to suit your argument'. Scarf Sleep was a pretty effective way (I did pretty well on the ladder myself with that Roserade lead if you recall) of shutting down Froslass without having to use Ambipom or Crobat, which obviously doesn't suit everyone's team, and Ambipom is also meh vs Froslass (50/50, its a prediction game).

Total bullshit. Ambipom was still a good lead even back then, and matching up badly against Crobat turn one did not mean instant loss, or even necessarily a disadvantage. I used an Ambipom lead back then for a good while and it was very useful because its utility against most other leads (especially Froslass) far outweighed its disadvantage against Crobat leads, which could be comfortably played around. I often just used Ambipom as a lure for an attack that Ampharos could switch into. Now obviously not everybody did that, but as zorbees mentioned, the statistics show that Ambipom was very high up in the lead stakes for much of the time that Crobat was around, so people must have been happy to keep on using it for the purpose of winning matches.

Where did I say that Ambipom was a bad lead? My mistake was not including Ambipom, but I never once said it was a bad lead when Crobat was around. Ambipom was sort of being shrugged off as an argument because honestly its not remotely reliable at stopping Froslass when it's 2HKOed AND lured out Pokemon like Regirock/Registeel/Steelix for an easy, free Stealth Rock. Additionally, it was stopped by Crobat, which was a common lead at the time. My point was that Ambipom isn't really a reason to retest Froslass.

There's also the fact that me and many others had lots of success with numerous other leads in that period. I frequented the top 10 on the ladder for months using a variety of different leads, Hariyama and Cloyster just being two of them, so no I'm not having this blatant lie of yours that you were restricted to just three lead setups in order to be competitive. It seems to me that you're just twisting the facts to suit your argument, then simply repeating your argument over and over again whilst ignoring everyone else's refutations. That's childish of you tbh, though it isn't the first time.

I know you did, I'd just rather rely on stats then you being able to get to the top 10 leader board with your 'different leads'. In this argument I never doubted your ability to ladder well (which you do very well, who am I kidding). This is ironically an example you of ignoring my argument.

Where in your post did you once refute my original point (which was "Why would we test Froslass when things have just gotten easier for it rather then 'harder' with this new metagame.")? You didn't. Of course I childishly responded to these irrelevant arguments involving Ambipom and other Rapid Spinners, but these Pokemon were there when Froslass was banned. All of them. Your arguments should really be about how there is a reason for a test because X and Y make it harder for Froslass to set up now etc. I can help you with an example if you like: Alakhazam. Alakazam is a great addition to the UU tier, and it has a fast Taunt + Dual Screen strategy to stop Slass from doing anything to bad. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

Can we get back onto the topic of my original point?

EDIT: Lemmi this isn't how you usually act :(

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

My point, as it stands, is that Donphan is the (arguably) most effective and undeniably common spinner. That's good news for Froslass.

Why? You haven't explained explicitly why the addition of yet another great spinner is somehow good news for Froslass of all things (but note that I don't deny the possibility). It seems to be that you just noted the Ice weakness and called it an obvious open-and-shut case based on that. Not good enough. I may well be wrong in this assertion, and if so, please clrify as I and nobody else has had anything to go on thus far.

Here's how I see it anyway. Donphan doesn't want anything to do with Froslass while she is in play for obvious reasons, but Donphan being the most popular spinner, if anything, hinders Froslass slightly. Why? Because firstly, being an Ice-weak Pokemon, Donphan is more likely to be supported by multiple Ice resists that are better at taking Froslass one-on-one. Secondly, Froslass has a harder time switching into Donphan than other Ghosts like Rotom and Mismagius, because these Pokemon can at least come in on a predicted Earthquake and force out Donphan, whilst Froslass dies to both Earthquake and Assurance, and incidentally Stone Edge too.

That's my reasoning. I haven't yet heard anything similar from you, other than 'Ice Beam weak', which is largely irrelevant.

How is that even remotely missing the point? The point IS that Froslass improved. In fact you seem to be doing what you accuse me of later in your post, 'twisting the facts to suit your argument'. Scarf Sleep was a pretty effective way (I did pretty well on the ladder myself with that Roserade lead if you recall) of shutting down Froslass without having to use Ambipom or Crobat, which obviously doesn't suit everyone's team, and Ambipom is also meh vs Froslass (50/50, its a prediction game).

For your first statement, fine, that is what you think, but prove it. Or at least give me and others something to think about in order to see your side of things. Your 'evidence' so far is completely unsatisfactory.

Ambipom doesn't need to predict against Froslass, it's just 'Pursuit, Pursuit, Pursuit'. As mentioned before, one layer of Spikes isn't the end of the world, especially if you're playing 6-5 up.

Where did I say that Ambipom was a bad lead? My mistake was not including Ambipom, but I never once said it was a bad lead when Crobat was around. Ambipom was sort of being shrugged off as an argument because honestly its not remotely reliable at stopping Froslass when it's 2HKOed AND lured out Pokemon like Regirock/Registeel/Steelix for an easy, free Stealth Rock. Additionally, it was stopped by Crobat, which was a common lead at the time. My point was that Ambipom isn't really a reason to retest Froslass.

Here:

I said "Ambipom wasn't a good lead because of Crobat"

Ok, you didn't say 'bad lead', but 'bad' and 'not good' are similar enough for the purpose of this discussion. This is exactly what annoys me when I get into a heated debate with you; trying to catch me out on semantics then blow it out of proportion. Do this all you like, but I am not doing anything wrong by arguing with you on this point.

Ambipom has always been a good lead, Crobat just made it less-than-brilliant while it was around.

And I agree, Ambipom is not a reason to retest Froslass. The extremely close vote, however, is as far as I'm concerned. You might well be a stern advocate of the simple majority vote, but I'm not, and neither are many others.

I know you did, I'd just rather rely on stats then you being able to get to the top 10 leader board with your 'different leads'. In this argument I never doubted your ability to ladder well (which you do very well, who am I kidding). This is ironically an example you of ignoring my argument.

I gave you the stats. Or to be precise, zorbees did, and I reinforced that point. What am I ignoring, and how can I ignore something that you haven't provided me with in the first place?

Where in your post did you once refute my original point (which was "Why would we test Froslass when things have just gotten easier for it rather then 'harder' with this new metagame.")? You didn't. Of course I childishly responded to these irrelevant arguments involving Ambipom and other Rapid Spinners, but these Pokemon were there when Froslass was banned. All of them. Your arguments should really be about how there is a reason for a test because X and Y make it harder for Froslass to set up now etc. I can help you with an example if you like: Alakhazam. Alakazam is a great addition to the UU tier, and it has a fast Taunt + Dual Screen strategy to stop Slass from doing anything to bad. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

Can we get back onto the topic of my original point?

EDIT: Lemmi this isn't how you usually act :(

This is always how I act, provided I have the time (which I happen to have right now because I'm between jobs at the moment). If I see somebody making fallacious arguments regarding a topic I have plenty of experience with, then I will argue with them to the end.

The bigger problem we have is that you seemed to consider Froslass as BL based almost purely on her lead capabilities, whereas I also consider her BL, but mostly for reasons more general than her ability to do suicide Spikes as a lead. Like I said before, I never rated that setup, so why would I focus on what's new on the lead front? Makes no difference to me potentially changing my vote, and no matter what I say I'm not going to change your mentality on this particular subject.

 

[A.P.]

Ambipom was sort of being shrugged off as an argument because honestly its not remotely reliable at stopping Froslass when it's 2HKOed AND lured out Pokemon like Regirock/Registeel/Steelix for an easy, free Stealth Rock. Additionally, it was stopped by Crobat, which was a common lead at the time. My point was that Ambipom isn't really a reason to retest Froslass.

Actually, Pursuit Ambipom is quite common. But I see your point. Honestly, I don't want to retest Froslass. Yanmega is already screwed up enough for me.

But I think that Raikou and Gallade should be retested. Abomasnow, Staraptor, meh, maybe for the latter. Shaymin, god yes - hell knows Milotic is a bitch. And Crobat isn't as threatening now either.

 

[Heysup]

Why? You haven't explained explicitly why the addition of yet another great spinner is somehow good news for Froslass of all things (but note that I don't deny the possibility). It seems to be that you just noted the Ice weakness and called it an obvious open-and-shut case based on that. Not good enough. I may well be wrong in this assertion, and if so, please clrify as I and nobody else has had anything to go on thus far.

I assumed you could put 2 and 2 together. Donphan is the most common spinner. Froslass has STAB Ice Beam. Therefore, Froslass has no trouble with the most common Spinner.

If that really isn't "good" enough, then I hope this:

Timid Froslass Ice Beam vs 188 HP / Min SpD Donphan:
259 Atk vs 156 Def & 368 HP (95 Base Power): 338 - 402 (91.85% - 109.24%)

That, my friends, is a guranteed OHKO with just one Layer of Spikes (and over 66% to OHKO with just SR).

Is that enough clarification?

Here's how I see it anyway. Donphan doesn't want anything to do with Froslass while she is in play for obvious reasons, but Donphan being the most popular spinner, if anything, hinders Froslass slightly. Why? Because firstly, being an Ice-weak Pokemon, Donphan is more likely to be supported by multiple Ice resists that are better at taking Froslass one-on-one. Secondly, Froslass has a harder time switching into Donphan than other Ghosts like Rotom and Mismagius, because these Pokemon can at least come in on a predicted Earthquake and force out Donphan, whilst Froslass dies to both Earthquake and Assurance, and incidentally Stone Edge too.

Hinders Froslass before or after it gets OHKOed by Ice Beam? Donphan can't spin effectively when it risks Froslass coming in and completely wrecking it. With 1 HP after setting spikes up, I don't really mind sending Froslass in to block Rapid Spin for the off chance Ayou do in fact Rapid Spin. All Froslass needs as support is another Ghost / Donphan counter to deal with Donphan perfectly. Those Pokemon aren't even hard to fit onto your team! That's yet another reason why Froslass is so undeniably broken. It turns your standard team into an unstoppable force without having to change your team at all. Almost every team has one of Missy, Rotom, and Spiritomb, and something like Azumarill or Roserade (who is gone now, but this is just an example) to force out Donphan. Froslass can block Rapid Spin AND force Donphan out until you get outpredicted and Froslass faints. Good luck to your opponent if he spent more then 2 turns trying to KO Froslass while Spikes are on the field, he will have even more trouble taking out the second ghost.

That's my reasoning. I haven't yet heard anything similar from you, other than 'Ice Beam weak', which is largely irrelevant.

'Ice Beam Weak' is really all I need to say. It OHKOes Donphan, the most common spinner. If Hitmontop wasn't already in the tier when Froslass was deemed broken you might have an argument there. But as of now, you have said nothing about Froslass having a harder time in this metagame.

For your first statement, fine, that is what you think, but prove it. Or at least give me and others something to think about in order to see your side of things. Your 'evidence' so far is completely unsatisfactory.

Prove it? That's what I've been doing, you just seem to ignore it. Maybe it will have a greater effect if I put it in a simple list for you:

Improvements (for Froslass) to the Metagame:

• Donphan is the most common Spinner, and is OHKOed by Ice Beam. Hitmontop is rarely used (comparatively) anymore.
• Crobat is gone. No more super fast Taunts and Roost Spamming.
• Roserade is gone. No more Scarf Sleepers that have function incredibly well late game.
• Dugtrio is moved up, meaning Scarf Sleepers really can't be used reliably either.
• Gallade is gone. Bulky SpD, Swords Dance, and Sneak gave Gallade an easy time setting up on Froslass.
• Raikou is gone. It could win the Speed tie and get a CM up on Froslass. We ALL know what happens after that.

Things that have changed that hinder Froslass:

• Alakhazam can make an effective Taunt lead.
• Ambipom can function as a decent Froslass counter without worrying about Crobat.

Ok, you didn't say 'bad lead', but 'bad' and 'not good' are similar enough for the purpose of this discussion. This is exactly what annoys me when I get into a heated debate with you; trying to catch me out on semantics then blow it out of proportion. Do this all you like, but I am not doing anything wrong by arguing with you on this point. Ambipom has always been a good lead, Crobat just made it less-than-brilliant while it was around.

So if this is what you want to argue about...then why do you say this:

And I agree, Ambipom is not a reason to retest Froslass.

If it doesn't enforce your argument, what's the point of arguing it?

The extremely close vote, however, is as far as I'm concerned. You might well be a stern advocate of the simple majority vote, but I'm not, and neither are many others.

This is your first valid point as far as I'm concerned. The only thing that makes Froslass worth testing again is the vote. However, I really don't believe enough has changed in the metagame to warrant a re-vote, because the opposite has happened (look at the list I made up a couple quotes).

I gave you the stats. Or to be precise, zorbees did, and I reinforced that point. What am I ignoring, and how can I ignore something that you haven't provided me with in the first place?

You are ignoring that things have changed for the better for Froslass. I have said this many times already.

The bigger problem we have is that you seemed to consider Froslass as BL based almost purely on her lead capabilities, whereas I also consider her BL, but mostly for reasons more general than her ability to do suicide Spikes as a lead. Like I said before, I never rated that setup, so why would I focus on what's new on the lead front? Makes no difference to me potentially changing my vote, and no matter what I say I'm not going to change your mentality on this particular subject.

As I said before, those sets are icing on the cake. If you don't consider the possibility that the lead set is broken, then I wouldn't really be surprised that you want a Froslass retest.

 

[whistle]

just responding to the froslass vs donphan spinner debate

froslass can't come in on assurance or earthquake safely even assuming it's at full HP with SR down. earthquake is the more important one here since donphan commonly gets free switches on earthquake weak pokemon which means there's a relatively high chance it'll be using it as froslass comes in. also, if froslass has been used before as a spiker, the switch can be easily predicted.

unboosted assurance 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (50 Base Power): 152 - 180 (54.09% - 64.06%)
boosted assurance 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 304 - 358 (108.19% - 127.40%)
earthquake 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (81.14% - 95.37%)
ice shard 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (40 Base Power): 31 - 36 (11.03% - 12.81%)

these show the ice beam calcs are largely irrelevant in the context of spin *blocking* because froslass is switching in on donphan, not the other way around. yeah, ice beam can KO if you come in on rapid spin, but every other ghost can will o wisp and shadow ball for massive damage too.

also: the increased usage of donphan relative to other spinners is a transient property of the metagame. it's not like everything else got banned so we *had* to use donphan; we only use donphan because it's the most effective in the current metagame. this means if froslass is reintroduced people might use less donphan (if we assume your "froslass destroys donphan" argument is true, which i don't believe is correct). this is different from something like banning crobat, which is a static property -- no matter how much we might want crobat to mess with froslass, we can't get it back.

another way to think of it is that players look at the set of viable spinners and pick the one that fits their team and the metagame best. if we add a pokemon to that set, there is only a risk that spinning becomes easier, no matter what that pokemon is.

 

[Heysup]

just responding to the froslass vs donphan spinner debate

froslass can't come in on assurance or earthquake safely even assuming it's at full HP with SR down. earthquake is the more important one here since donphan commonly gets free switches on earthquake weak pokemon which means there's a relatively high chance it'll be using it as froslass comes in. also, if froslass has been used before as a spiker, the switch can be easily predicted.

unboosted assurance 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (50 Base Power): 152 - 180 (54.09% - 64.06%)
boosted assurance 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 304 - 358 (108.19% - 127.40%)
earthquake 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (81.14% - 95.37%)
ice shard 372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (40 Base Power): 31 - 36 (11.03% - 12.81%)

These Calcs are surprisingly unimpressive actually. Froslass CAN switch into Donphan and live assuming its early game (if you still have spikes up late game...gl). Anyway, my point was that Froslass is being used in the lead slot, giving you enough room to include Missy or Rotom (or Spritomb).

these show the ice beam calcs are largely irrelevant in the context of spin *blocking* because froslass is switching in on donphan, not the other way around. yeah, ice beam can KO if you come in on rapid spin, but every other ghost can will o wisp and shadow ball for massive damage too.

It stops Donphan from coming in and beating Ghosts (like it can do vs most Missy, Rotom, and Spiritomb). As I said before, being able to OHKO the most popular Spinner is a huge benefit on top of its broken Spikes set. Spinblocking is another.

also: the increased usage of donphan relative to other spinners is a transient property of the metagame. it's not like everything else got banned so we *had* to use donphan; we only use donphan because it's the most effective in the current metagame. this means if froslass is reintroduced people might use less donphan (if we assume your "froslass destroys donphan" argument is true, which i don't believe is correct). this is different from something like banning crobat, which is a static property -- no matter how much we might want crobat to mess with froslass, we can't get it back.

another way to think of it is that players look at the set of viable spinners and pick the one that fits their team and the metagame best. if we add a pokemon to that set, there is only a risk that spinning becomes easier, no matter what that pokemon is.

I already addressed this. These Pokemon were already in the metagame and Froslass was deemed BL.

 

[-Terywj-]

The part where someone (I believe Heysup) stated that Ambipom is a lure for Regirock/Registeel/Steelix isn't particularily true. Now that Ambipom has Low Kick, those 3 are not that big of an issue anymore. And they are not outspeeding Ambipom anytime soon.

-Terywj

 

[Heysup]

The part where someone (I believe Heysup) stated that Ambipom is a lure for Regirock/Registeel/Steelix isn't particularily true. Now that Ambipom has Low Kick, those 3 are not that big of an issue anymore. And they are not outspeeding Ambipom anytime soon.

-Terywj

This was before Froslass was banned, meaning way before Ambipom got Low Kick.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

@ Heysup: it seems that the majority of my post has fallen on deaf ears once again, but thankfully whistle has already said most of what I was going to say to save me some time.

If you really think that it is a good idea for Donphan to be taking on any Ghost one-on-one, not just Froslass, then you are either getting yourself really confused somehow, or you are just not a very good battler. Now I know that the latter isn't true, so it must be the former. Either that or you have a hidden agenda in trying to bias your argument as much as possible, though I don't see why you would want to do that, and you certainly don't belong on this forum if so.

Simply put, spinner Donphan should only be dealing with Ghosts on the switch. That is just a basic observation of the current UU metagame, and from this perspective Froslass is the riskiest Ghost for switching in, for reasons I have mentioned. So no, all those Ice Beam calcs are not enough clarification, as it is an irrelevant point to begin with.

It stops Donphan from coming in and beating Ghosts (like it can do vs most Missy, Rotom, and Spiritomb).

Seriously, what planet are you on? I can't be the only one who sees the utter madness behind this statement.

Secondly, simply listing various improvements (on paper) vs. disadvantages that have appeared since Froslass' departure and expect them to mean something on their own holds very little water, although I'm glad you have made the effort to state your reasons together in one coherent post this time. The reason this argument doesn't hold is because we have learned time and time again that predicting the change in the metagame based on several separate cases, all of which can be arbitrarily interpreted, is next to impossible. It is similar to the way that people compared UU to OU with things like 'OU has such and such that UU doesn't', and concluded that Dugtrio would pwn UU. There is no guarantee that all the points that you have mentioned have together served to make Froslass potentially any better in UU compared to before. Such is the danger of theorymon.

This is your first valid point as far as I'm concerned. The only thing that makes Froslass worth testing again is the vote. However, I really don't believe enough has changed in the metagame to warrant a re-vote, because the opposite has happened (look at the list I made up a couple quotes).

Not only was it the only valid point according to you, but in fact the only point I have made relating to my initial argument from the beginning. Every other argument I have made has had nothing to do with my initial assertion regarding the vote, and everything to do with your argument, and why I believe it is flawed. All I said at the beginning was I wanted to retest Froslass because the first vote was unconvincing. You then made a counter-statement regarding Froslass under Hail, and it all escalated from there. Since then, I have never once referred to changes in the metagame or any of that crap to enforce my initial argument, because I don't need to. I wouldn't care if nothing had changed since Froslass' departure, I would still want a retest somewhere down the line.

In a nutshell, you think that because Froslass was voted BL once, it was definitely broken all along, and have based your argument around that assumption since. I however, don't necessarily agree with said assumption at all, and am determined to see the issue revisited in the current light of day. This would only be doing the UU process justice.

 

[Mrobinson587]

I thought it was maybe just a few people that were whining but are people really having that much problems with milotic? Maybe its just my playstyle but I never really had problems with it.

My opinion as stands is that Frosslass and Raikou should stay and I would be open to testing the others after a couple months for settling. I haven't played UU but a few games in 2 months or so but I felt Ambipom was BL before he got Low Kick. My feelings on Ambipom don't appear to be mutual :(

 

[d2m]

I thought it was maybe just a few people that were whining but are people really having that much problems with milotic? Maybe its just my playstyle but I never really had problems with it.

My opinion as stands is that Frosslass and Raikou should stay and I would be open to testing the others after a couple months for settling. I haven't played UU but a few games in 2 months or so but I felt Ambipom was BL before he got Low Kick. My feelings on Ambipom don't appear to be mutual :(

He's really fragile and there's plenty that resist Fake Out, but he is an excellent poke.

 

[Heysup]

@ Heysup: it seems that the majority of my post has fallen on deaf ears once again,

Likewise.

In a nutshell, you think that because Froslass was voted BL once, it was definitely broken all along, and have based your argument around that assumption since. I however, don't necessarily agree with said assumption at all, and am determined to see the issue revisited in the current light of day.

This is how the argument has gone (without the details, obviously):

You said "lets retest Froslass". I said "Why? It was deemed broken and conditions have only improved for it since because of reasons X, Y, and Z. So why wouldn't we test Froslass after other more legitimate suspects to test?". You said "Those reasons aren't good enough for me and I'm not convinced by the vote". That's what my problem was. You never argued that it was worth it to retest Froslass in relation to the other Pokemon who have would quite honestly get cockblocked by the new UU metagame (like Staraptor with Rhyperior / others and similarly Raikou with all of the new ground-types), and instead argued that my statements were false, even though they were far from it (I had evidence that you liked to ignore). If you think that it's more important to retest Froslass first because the vote was closest then this is a completely different type of argument, but otherwise...you get the point. This "argument" is really going nowhere, so unless you are going to actually see argue the point (Why test Froslass before Pokemon like Raikou and Staraptor who have been obviously given a tougher metagame to function in) at hand I see no reason to continue.

P.S. Donphan can actually beat standard Missy and Rotom if they come in on Rapid Spin with minimal damage done to them as they don't OHKO Donphan back. In fact, Rotom without a boost only 2HKOes Donphan 3.55% of the time with SR + Leftovers while Donphan OHKOes 100% of the time with Assurance if Rotom has taken previous damage. Missy doesn't fair much better either. That's why Ice Beam is relevant. Not only can Froslass switch into any attack with full HP or Rapid Spin, but it can OHKO with Ice Beam where as the other ghosts can switch into Rapid Spin and get owned 1v1 after.

 

[MagicMaster87]

P.S. Donphan can actually beat standard Missy and Rotom if they come in on Rapid Spin with minimal damage done to them as they don't OHKO Donphan back. In fact, Rotom without a boost only 2HKOes Donphan 3.55% of the time with SR + Leftovers while Donphan OHKOes 100% of the time with Assurance if Rotom has taken previous damage. Missy doesn't fair much better either. That's why Ice Beam is relevant. Not only can Froslass switch into any attack with full HP or Rapid Spin, but it can OHKO with Ice Beam where as the other ghosts can switch into Rapid Spin and get owned 1v1 after.

All of the following calcs were performed on libelldra.

Max+ Donphan's unboosted Assurance (since your argument is that they come in on Rapid Spin) on min/min Rotom:

372 Atk vs 190 Def & 241 HP (50 Base Power): 142 - 168 (58.92% - 69.71%)

Same Assurance on min/min Mismagius:

372 Atk vs 156 Def & 261 HP (50 Base Power): 172 - 204 (65.90% - 78.16%)

That's quite a bit of previous damage that's needed. Meanwhile, an unboosted Shadow Ball from a max SAtk Timid Rotom versus 56/0 (current standard) Donphan:

289 Atk vs 156 Def & 335 HP (80 Base Power): 160 - 189 (47.76% - 56.42%)
This is a 100% chance to 2HKO Donphan assuming Donphan switches into SR and Shadow Ball and is carrying Lefties. Without considering SR damage (which will be fully healed off assuming Rotom is switching into Donphan), Rotom has a 25.44% chance to 2HKO Donphan, which, while still bad, is quite a bit higher than your stated 3.55%. As for Mismagius, it has an 89.48% chance to 2HKO a full-health Lefties Donphan (and a +2 Shadow Ball is a 100% guaranteed OHKO, so the user can just NP up to remove the chance of failure), so I don't see why you're saying it "doesn't fair much better".

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

This is how the argument has gone (without the details, obviously):

You said "lets retest Froslass". I said "Why? It was deemed broken and conditions have only improved for it since because of reasons X, Y, and Z. So why wouldn't we test Froslass after other more legitimate suspects to test?". You said "Those reasons aren't good enough for me and I'm not convinced by the vote". That's what my problem was. You never argued that it was worth it to retest Froslass in relation to the other Pokemon who have would quite honestly get cockblocked by the new UU metagame (like Staraptor with Rhyperior / others and similarly Raikou with all of the new ground-types), and instead argued that my statements were false, even though they were far from it (I had evidence that you liked to ignore). If you think that it's more important to retest Froslass first because the vote was closest then this is a completely different type of argument, but otherwise...you get the point. This "argument" is really going nowhere, so unless you are going to actually see argue the point (Why test Froslass before Pokemon like Raikou and Staraptor who have been obviously given a tougher metagame to function in) at hand I see no reason to continue.

First of all, your claim that conditions have improved for Froslass is only your opinion based mainly on theorymon. Nothing you have said could be seen as anything close to factual, so you should do yourself a favor and stop pretending that it is so. I could very easily do exactly the same thing in reverse, i.e. listing a bunch of changes and putting my own spin on them to make it sound like things are worse for Froslass now. I won't do this because it simply doesn't hold as a legitimate argument and I am above that. What you're doing is a form of propaganda that tabloid newspapers exploit day-in, day-out to sway the gullible. It is not fooling anybody with a brain (just an expression).

Secondly, regarding the order in which suspects should be retested, I never even made any reference to this whatsoever. You are the one that brought this point up, and the reason I didn't is because this is not relevant right now. It is a decision to be made by the senior members when the time is right, or at least will come down to some sort of policy vote. Moreover, I mentioned Raikou alongside Froslass at exactly the same time (back on page 6). Where you got the idea that I wanted Froslass retesting first I'll never know. The reason I mentioned those two in particular was because I was responding to the claim that Flyers are a dominant force in this tier, and they have some utility in checking said Pokemon. That is not to say that this should have any bearing on what gets retested, it was just for the purposes of discussion. I disagree with you on Staraptor, because the landslide vote shows that it was almost unquestionably BL back then, and therefore any decision to retest in the future should be deliberated much more carefully.

The point I have been focusing on all along is this. Forget Raikou, forget Staraptor, forget everything else regarding the testing process, just answer this question. Given that the initial Froslass vote could be interpreted as not convincing enough to label Froslass a definite BL, would you be willing to see her retested at some point down the line?

If your answer is Yes, then we have nothing to argue about, and we have been wasting our time arguing. If No, then I'm afraid you still have a lot to answer for.

P.S. Donphan can actually beat standard Missy and Rotom if they come in on Rapid Spin with minimal damage done to them as they don't OHKO Donphan back. In fact, Rotom without a boost only 2HKOes Donphan 3.55% of the time with SR + Leftovers while Donphan OHKOes 100% of the time with Assurance if Rotom has taken previous damage. Missy doesn't fair much better either. That's why Ice Beam is relevant. Not only can Froslass switch into any attack with full HP or Rapid Spin, but it can OHKO with Ice Beam where as the other ghosts can switch into Rapid Spin and get owned 1v1 after.

Will-o-wisp? Ok not all carry it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a factor.

More importantly though, look at it this way. The Ghost has successfully come in to block Rapid Spin and preserve their valuable entry hazards. It is clear that Donphan's main objective is to spin, and has so far failed. If we assume that despite this, Donphan can beat said Ghost one-on-one (i.e. faint them before they faint you) then fine, but at what cost? Easy to see really, Donphan ends up at very low health after barely surviving two Shadow Balls. Is Donphan getting much chance to spin at critical health? The answer is No, especially if they want to spin away any Spikes.

So what does the Donphan user gain by doing this? It kills the opponent's Ghost! Yay, no more spin-blocking! But wait, Donphan is deadweight now so I've lost my spinner! You see, the situations you have outlined are something that no rational player would do unless it was an emergency situation and they've already given up any hope of spinning anyway. The Ghost has still done its job in this situation.

 

[Heysup]

All of the following calcs were performed on libelldra.

Max+ Donphan's unboosted Assurance (since your argument is that they come in on Rapid Spin) on min/min Rotom:

372 Atk vs 190 Def & 241 HP (50 Base Power): 142 - 168 (58.92% - 69.71%)

Same Assurance on min/min Mismagius:

372 Atk vs 156 Def & 261 HP (50 Base Power): 172 - 204 (65.90% - 78.16%)

That's quite a bit of previous damage that's needed.

Does Assurance only double after it's second attack or does other "previous damage" count to double it's power? Eitherway, it hits them quite hard. (Harder then they hit Donphan)

Meanwhile, an unboosted Shadow Ball from a max SAtk Timid Rotom versus 56/0 (current standard) Donphan:

289 Atk vs 156 Def & 335 HP (80 Base Power): 160 - 189 (47.76% - 56.42%)
This is a 100% chance to 2HKO Donphan assuming Donphan switches into SR and Shadow Ball and is carrying Lefties. Without considering SR damage (which will be fully healed off assuming Rotom is switching into Donphan), Rotom has a 25.44% chance to 2HKO Donphan, which, while still bad, is quite a bit higher than your stated 3.55%. As for Mismagius, it has an 89.48% chance to 2HKO a full-health Lefties Donphan (and a +2 Shadow Ball is a 100% guaranteed OHKO, so the user can just NP up to remove the chance of failure), so I don't see why you're saying it "doesn't fair much better".

Try giving Donphan not min HP.......it usually carries from 368 hp to max.

Retesting for all suspects eventually would be fine, but too be quite honest, Froslass is probably the last we should test.

you must have missed this post too....

 

[MagicMaster87]

Try giving Donphan not min HP.......it usually carries from 368 hp to max.

I didn't give Donphan min HP. I gave him 56 EVs, which is the current listed standard IIRC (56 HP/252 ATK/200 DEF).

And Assurance only doubles when the opponent has already taken damage that turn.

 

[jamashawalker]

hoi, so i've been out of the loop for a long time hahaha and i havent been up to date with the current HGSS movesets and tier changes, but appearently it seems like ALOT of changes have been happening...but to stay on the current topic about rapid spinnning and spikes...

After looking at Roserade being moved to OU who was the common spiker of UU after frosslass.... In my opinion, i believe Frosslass should be retested...why? the UU metagame has had major shifts ever since its been banned and also hitmontop can rapid spin against it...foresight+rapid spin or foresight+closecombat(which will make it supereffective against froslass) well i'm sure heysup, lemmi, or magic have already said something about this though lol...

One question up for discussion is that, who will be the new main spiker of UU now...while i was playing roserade was the main one and rarely quilfish/cloyster...and now that donphan has claimed to be the main rapid spinner of UU will hitmontop no longer be used because of this?

 

[haunter]

I didn't give Donphan min HP. I gave him 56 EVs, which is the current listed standard IIRC (56 HP/252 ATK/200 DEF).

Although it's not really important for the case of Froslass (as it can still OHKO Donphan even with max HP) according to the most recent server stats:

| Donphan    | HP EV        | Max              |    57.9 |

which means that almost 60% of the Donphan run max HP. In fact, I've always found max HP on Donphan being a more efficient EV spread just because it allows to always avoid the 2hko from things like Mismagius and Rotom, which seem to be very common spin blocker.

I'm not sure about Froslass' tiering and I wouldn't dislike a re-test for it and for Raikou, but I agree with Heysup when he says that we haven't had significant changes to the metagame since when they got deemed BL.

On the other hand, I agree with whoever said that Froslass isn't going to switch into Donphan to act as a spin blocker, since the Donphan user doesn't even need to try to predict a switch and use payback, when EQ can still OHKO it (and Froslass' weakness to SR doesn't help at all).
​

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

you must have missed this post too....

I didn't, it just would've been much more sensible if you stopped at the word 'fine'.

After looking at Roserade being moved to OU who was the common spiker of UU after frosslass.... In my opinion, i believe Frosslass should be retested...why? the UU metagame has had major shifts ever since its been banned and also hitmontop can rapid spin against it...foresight+rapid spin or foresight+closecombat(which will make it supereffective against froslass) well i'm sure heysup, lemmi, or magic have already said something about this though lol...

Hitmontop cannot reliably spin against Froslass because they often run Taunt, which prevents Foresight. That and if leading she is often supported by a second Ghost. The best Hitmontop can manage is Pursuit and/or Bullet Punch with Technician to 2HKO, which is actually quite effective against her. Spinblocking, however, is not the key to Froslass' power....

 

[whistle]

RHYPERIOR is going to be good because of solid rock
(obviously keep it away from special attacks)
solid rock means you can't just stick a nonstab super effective physical attack on it (like low kick ambipom) and wish away your problems
short post is short but i think most of us (me included) just blew rhyperior off as the just as shitty evolution of rhydon

One question up for discussion is that, who will be the new main spiker of UU now...

i'm going to try qwilfish because it sets up on milotic pretty easily who is probably going to go way up plus lemmiwinks swears by it and he is smart ^_^

 

[franky]

One question up for discussion is that, who will be the new main spiker of UU now...

Omastar was my choice even with Roserade around. Omastar is pretty useful in UU. I expect to see more Omastars

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

i'm going to try qwilfish because it sets up on milotic pretty easily who is probably going to go way up plus lemmiwinks swears by it and he is smart ^_^

Omastar for stall, Qwilfish for balanced or offensive. Qwilfish doesn't work on stall for obvious reasons, but it kicks ass as a mid-game transition Spiker for more aggressive teams. Much like the way Froslass could, but not quite as potently as her.

 

[Heysup]

Omastar for stall, Qwilfish for balanced or offensive. Qwilfish doesn't work on stall for obvious reasons, but it kicks ass as a mid-game transition Spiker for more aggressive teams. Much like the way Froslass could, but not quite as potently as her.

I'm tempted to try Qwilfish as a "Froslass-Lite" lead with a similar moveset to Froslass. Have you ever tried it (you seem to like using under appreciated Pokemon a lot:P)?

I realize that it doesn't have 110 base speed, STAB Ice Beam, or Ghost typing, but what do you think? Especially if it's supported by Rhyperior or something to deal with Ambipom, I think it could be decent.

I have a feeling I'm going to be going back to Cloyster. Cloyster is really underrated guys, it has Skill Link + Rock Blast to make it an easy Azumarill counter, even if its SubPunch (Rock Blast's 4th hit will break the sub, so the 5th hit will cancel Focus Punch) and not to mention Ice Shard which is definitely a useful move even if Roserade is gone.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'm tempted to try Qwilfish as a "Froslass-Lite" lead with a similar moveset to Froslass. Have you ever tried it (you seem to like using under appreciated Pokemon a lot:P)?

I've used Qwilfish extensively in UU, but not much as a lead for much the same reasons I don't like Froslass in that position. You risk getting into bad match-ups far too often, particularly Ambipom and Uxie that you have to run from, and the odd Dugtrio you just die to without doing much if anything at all.

I prefer to scout first then bring Qwilfish in at the right time mid-game. Milotic is the most common target by far, but Qwilfish has numerous resistances so it isn't just restricted to Milo for setup opportunities. Then you mess with the minds of slower Pokemon with Taunt + Destiny Bond.

I don't use Qwilfish just because it is underused or underappreciated, I use it because it has a golden niche in the current metagame.

 

[Bluewind]

Well, out of the Frosslass subject as I didn't play when it was allowed in UU, Omastar has always been my spiker of choice and has proven to act pretty well even out of stall, having both hazards and countering stuff like Physical Arcanine, Swellow, CB Normal types etc etc we all know the rest. Qwilfish sounds pretty fun though, just for the sake of not having to switch out Omastar fearing HP Grass from Milotic it makes me wanna try it.