np: UU - A Farewell To Kings

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Pertaining to my "main" team: I cannot sweep with Blaziken, because you have Crobat. I cannot sweep with Missy because of Crobat. I cannot sweep with Espeon or Shaymin because of Crobat (assuming I get lucky and trick chansey or something). Thats 4 of my team that is not only checked, but SWEPT by Crobat. My team isnt even "weak" to crobat because of Regirock, its just offensive checks for Crobat have severe issues staying alive against a stall team, as all of them basically share a collective Shaymin / Omastar weakness which are easily abused by stall.

The difference is, that stall cannot be swept by Crobat, while offense is EASILY swept by Crobat.

The point is, Crobat checks at least 80%+ of the offensive sweepers in the metagame, while the rest are painfully weak to Omastar, Shaymin, Drapion, etc Pokemon that are easily (and almost always) included in a stall team.

A stall team that cannot be swept is beaten how? Thats why its broken.

Crobat shouldn't be able to sweep if Regirock is alive. It's also not that easy. Crobat also has to come in with care; it's not like it's an auto-stop to Blaziken and thusly the rest of your sweepers. There has been at least one time where you caught it with a Fire Blast when I predicted SuperPower. I'm basically relying on you to switch in Mismagius or Shaymin, or mispredict, to get Crobat in.

Also, Omastar is common, but it's not like everyone and their mother who uses a stall team uses it. Same with Shaymin and Drapion. I have said this before, but there are no "staples" of stall in UU.

Yeah, this is part of what I'm saying. The pokemon that counter Crobat have common weaknesses that are extremely easy to exploit. And besides, Crobat doesn't have to KO its counters to support its team. The fact that it checks an astronomically high portion of the metagame is just an added bonus.

As true as that is, the same also applies to Arcanine and Swellow, off the top of my head. How is Crobat any different? Stuff like Shaymin also gain a lot of free switch-in opportunities from stuff like Milotic, Claydol, and whatnot as it is. And if a player uses a Shaymin check with longevity (Chansey), it shouldn't be a problem. If a player uses a "one or two-time check" (ie; Roserade), then how come they can't do the same for Crobat? Shaymin sweeping one's team is supported by Crobat, yes, but is that support that much of an impact? Wouldn't Shaymin be the culprit in this case?

How can this possibly make sense when almost every single team EOM has ever made uses Crobat? He didn't just magically rise up the ladder without it...

Of course I didn't, but that's sort of irrelevant seeing as I have used Chansey nearly equally as much, and Omastar and Shaymin on the majority of my teams. The Crobat on my stall team doesn't even have U-Turn, which is one of its main selling points for it being broken.

 

[Heysup]

Crobat shouldn't be able to sweep if Regirock is alive. It's also not that easy. Crobat also has to come in with care; it's not like it's an auto-stop to Blaziken and thusly the rest of your sweepers. There has been at least one time where you caught it with a Fire Blast when I predicted SuperPower. I'm basically relying on you to switch in Mismagius or Shaymin, or mispredict, to get Crobat in.

Also, Omastar is common, but it's not like everyone and their mother who uses a stall team uses it. Same with Shaymin and Drapion. I have said this before, but there are no "staples" of stall in UU.

The thing is, that there are staples that i noticed in "good" stall teams. I realized this, when two of the best (and known) battlers and team builders both faced me with 5/6 same Pokemon on their stall teams (you know who you are).

This is irrelevant in a way. The teams that are broken are these ones, the ones that simply break Crobat, regardless of whether or not they are staples for stall. There is NO Crobat counter that doesnt give the stall player a huge edge with Shaymin, Omastar, Drapion, etc. Trust Crobats counters simply dont have any recovery, and stall teams do have recovery (Omastar can spare a slot for protect at least). Again, the more Crobat counters I carry, the easier it is for the stall team to wreck me, and vice versa. It still applies, it will always apply.

As true as that is, the same also applies to Arcanine and Swellow, off the top of my head. How is Crobat any different? Stuff like Shaymin also gain a lot of free switch-in opportunities from stuff like Milotic, Claydol, and whatnot as it is. And if a player uses a Shaymin check with longevity (Chansey), it shouldn't be a problem. If a player uses a "one or two-time check" (ie; Roserade), then how come they can't do the same for Crobat? Shaymin sweeping one's team is supported by Crobat, yes, but is that support that much of an impact? Wouldn't Shaymin be the culprit in this case?

Read one of my earlier posts, I explained this thoroughly. What I said is Swellow would definitely be BL material, if it had decent defenses, and longivity. The fact that Crobat is basically a slightly weaker Swellow, but with a million times more longivity, with Roost, resistances, defenses, and leftovers, not to mention its faster.

So this means, Swellow's power (x.75), + survivability (typing and defenses to utilize Roost well) + Speed + Taunt = Crobat.

Of course I didn't, but that's sort of irrelevant seeing as I have used Chansey nearly equally as much, and Omastar and Shaymin on the majority of my teams. The Crobat on my stall team doesn't even have U-Turn, which is one of its main selling points for it being broken.

U-turn can be easily replaced with Sub, they do similar things, especially for a stall team who doesnt really need the momentum (my offensive team is basically based around momentum...but whatever) that U-turn brings. The fact that you use the whole team is irrelevant, the fact that Crobat makes this "catagory" of team broken is the only relevant part.

 

[Stagnant]

Everyone is worried about Crobat but personally I'm tired of Yanmega. There is no way of taking effectively taking out the bastard on without Chansey or Regi-...

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Likewise, it isn't about Rhydon being able to switch into the vast majority of Pokemon, it's about Rhydon not being able to switch into anything other than walls and Crobat. I'd say that doesn't qualify him as a bulky Pokemon. I can repeat this all day, and you can actually respond to it, or you can continue to use terms which don't apply to my argument (clearly I have never stated that Rhydon's problem is that "he should be able to switch in on the vast majority of Pokemon"; these are words invented totally by you) and we'll fail to get anywhere.

Aside from Crobat, what?

There are a few others, such as Swellow, Ambipom and Arcanine, even some Moltres as HP Grass and Will-o-wisp are relatively rare. None of those common fast, frail Pokemon want to be switching in on these guys, whereas something like Rhydon doesn’t necessarily mind with its resistances and bulk. Most of these Pokemon don’t necessarily like switching in to some of the common walls either, at the risk of getting paralyzed or in some cases hurt badly by an effective attack. But even ignoring that, I take issue with the way you keep saying ‘aside from Crobat’, as if Crobat is all of a sudden not an important factor when it comes to offensive synergy. I’m sorry, but the fact that Crobat is one of if not the most used Pokemon in UU right now, AND is the number one threat to typical offensive teams, means that it is an important factor, so stop pretending that it isn’t.

The reason we are failing to get anywhere is that you continue to be adamant in your belief that Rhydon cannot work well offensively, despite all the reasoning me and others have given that refutes that claim. I don’t really care if you have used Rhydon before, just because you haven’t been able to use it effectively does not mean that you have a right to make such a claim as if it was absolute fact.

I think it is best if we just end this pointless argument right here. You don‘t think Rhydon is very good offensively, whereas I disagree. Let’s just leave it at that. It has become such a digression from the main point, which was that offensive Rock types can have a use on offensive teams to keep Crobat (and possibly some other things) in check, and there is nothing wrong with that.

the fact that Crobat makes this "catagory" of team broken is the only relevant part.

Again, you might be absolutely right in this claim, and I’m sure that everybody is open and willing to accept that if true. But your argument needs to be properly justified, otherwise why should anyone who currently disagrees believe you when you say it is a fact?

 

[Stagnant]

Congrats on 1k post Lemmi o.o

Also, if you have Standard Crobat problems.. just use Magneton. 15% damage is the highest I've ever seen from brave bird.

 

[Technicolor Apocalypse]

Everyone is worried about Crobat but personally I'm tired of Yanmega. There is no way of taking effectively taking out the bastard on without Chansey or Regi-...

What about Porygon2? I know I can't be the only one who uses him....

 

[reachzero]

All the conversation about Crobat aside, I think the Suspect that most of us are overlooking here is Ludiculo. Rain Dance is insanely difficult to stop in UU right now, and Ludiculo is the biggest reason. Unless you have Toxicroak, you're going to have a really hard time stopping Ludiculo in Rain (Ludiculo should have Focus Punch and an attack neutral nature for Chansey). Now that Abomasnow is gone, Rain Dance is a huge threat.

 

[Stagnant]

Thing is Ludicolo is only partially deadly under the rain. As soon as them 5-8 turns is up he is open to damn near anything. Also stalling out the rain isn't your only option as Pokemon like Toxicroak, Registeel, and TechniTop laugh at him. He's good but no where as annoying as Yanmega..

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

The thing is, that there are staples that i noticed in "good" stall teams. I realized this, when two of the best (and known) battlers and team builders both faced me with 5/6 same Pokemon on their stall teams (you know who you are).

Nothing conclusive can be made from only two teams. There is not enough information to base your idea of staples of off. Other equally effective, yet different, stall teams have been made by the like SDS, thund, etc. not using these "staples". Besides, the team in question has easily exploitable weaknesses (Ground types or Feraligatr/Azumarill, depending on what's being used.)

Read one of my earlier posts, I explained this thoroughly. What I said is Swellow would definitely be BL material, if it had decent defenses, and longivity. The fact that Crobat is basically a slightly weaker Swellow, but with a million times more longivity, with Roost, resistances, defenses, and leftovers, not to mention its faster.

So this means, Swellow's power (x.75), + survivability (typing and defenses to utilize Roost well) + Speed + Taunt = Crobat.

I didn't really get your point. if Swellow underwent those changes it would basically be Crobat. Let me put it this way: how do you deal with Swellow if you can't deal with Crobat? In terms of priority, only Fighters really have an easier time with Swellow, and maybe Honchkrow and Absol.

The fact that you use the whole team is irrelevant, the fact that Crobat makes this "catagory" of team broken is the only relevant part.

Again, seeing as a only two people use anything remotely like this team (as far as I know, and as you have stated), combined with the fact that it has easily exploitable weaknesses, Crobat making these types of teams broken (it doesn't) is not really applicable most of the time.

 

[Stagnant]

At this point I highly encourage everyone to nominate Crobat as a suspect once again. One more round of testing should solidify Crobat's true placement, whether it be UU or BL. Any further discussion about him is rather pointless IMO. However, there is always reason to kickout that oversized dragonfly, Yanmega.

 

[Heysup]

Nothing conclusive can be made from only two teams. There is not enough information to base your idea of staples of off. Other equally effective, yet different, stall teams have been made by the like SDS, thund, etc. not using these "staples". Besides, the team in question has easily exploitable weaknesses (Ground types or Feraligatr/Azumarill, depending on what's being used.)

Too be honest, something doesn't have to be used often to be broken. And on a side note, Shaymin > Ground types and Azumaril/feraligatr in question.

I didn't really get your point. if Swellow underwent those changes it would basically be Crobat. Let me put it this way: how do you deal with Swellow if you can't deal with Crobat? In terms of priority, only Fighters really have an easier time with Swellow, and maybe Honchkrow and Absol.
Again, seeing as a only two people use anything remotely like this team (as far as I know, and as you have stated), combined with the fact that it has easily exploitable weaknesses, Crobat making these types of teams broken (it doesn't) is not really applicable most of the time.

My point is, that Crobat is offensively comparable to Honchkrow, Swellow, and Absol as you pointed out, but the key difference is that Crobat is a) faster, and b) incredibly bulky. What do you do against a Swellow that you cant KO easily? Not much can withstand these Pokemon's attacks for long, but fortunately they are incredibly fragile, while Crobat is not.

At this point I highly encourage everyone to nominate Crobat as a suspect once again. One more round of testing should solidify Crobat's true placement, whether it be UU or BL. Any further discussion about him is rather pointless IMO. However, there is always reason to kickout that oversized dragonfly, Yanmega.

Yanmega is far from broken. It cannot sweep with ease, its easily wallable or revenge killable. Especially since a full Health Crobat is a nearly perfect check to it.

 

[Erazor]

At this point I highly encourage everyone to nominate Crobat as a suspect once again. One more round of testing should solidify Crobat's true placement, whether it be UU or BL. Any further discussion about him is rather pointless IMO. However, there is always reason to kickout that oversized dragonfly, Yanmega.

Agreeing to this. Ban Crobat again, considering it a test. Then watch the metagame unfold. Then we make our decisions for voting.

It's probably the best thing to do in this situation. I'm not sure, as this happened just before I joined, but wasn't there a suspect ladder for a Metagame without Garchomp? I think we should do the same thing - declare Crobat a suspect, then look at the new "metagame".

 

[adman2]

Agreeing to this. Ban Crobat again, considering it a test. Then watch the metagame unfold. Then we make our decisions for voting.

It's probably the best thing to do in this situation. I'm not sure, as this happened just before I joined, but wasn't there a suspect ladder for a Metagame without Garchomp? I think we should do the same thing - declare Crobat a suspect, then look at the new "metagame".

The suspect metagame concerning Garchomp existed, so you are right.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Too be honest, something doesn't have to be used often to be broken. And on a side note, Shaymin > Ground types and Azumaril/feraligatr in question.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying the combination of Omastar, Drapion, Shaymin, and Crobat is broken. It's not. For one thing, none of them are 100% safe switch-ins to a variety of Pokemon, including Blaziken, Arcanine, Moltres, Honchkrow, etc. Also, who's to say that one of the other Pokemon is not responsible, as they would technically all qualify as broken if applied the same argument that you are arguing Crobat is broken under (overpowers stall).

My point is, that Crobat is offensively comparable to Honchkrow, Swellow, and Absol as you pointed out, but the key difference is that Crobat is a) faster, and b) incredibly bulky. What do you do against a Swellow that you cant KO easily? Not much can withstand these Pokemon's attacks for long, but fortunately they are incredibly fragile, while Crobat is not.

Regardless, Swellow's counters (I wasn't really using the others in the same example) are Shaymin bait. It doesn't matter about its defenses; if you have Swellow's counters, Shaymin gets a free switch-in from U-Turn. If you don't, Swellow wreaks havoc.

At this point I highly encourage everyone to nominate Crobat as a suspect once again. One more round of testing should solidify Crobat's true placement, whether it be UU or BL. Any further discussion about him is rather pointless IMO. However, there is always reason to kickout that oversized dragonfly, Yanmega.

It's probably a good idea to test him again, but I don't see anything wrong with debating about it.

 

[Heysup]

Regardless, Swellow's counters (I wasn't really using the others in the same example) are Shaymin bait. It doesn't matter about its defenses; if you have Swellow's counters, Shaymin gets a free switch-in from U-Turn. If you don't, Swellow wreaks havoc.

Exactly! That outlined my exact point, pretty much. All of Swellows counters are essentially Shaymin bait, BUT, it is incredibly difficult to keep swellow alive long enough to do this, but if you keep him around untill late game, you are going to have a high possibility to sweep. With Crobat's near unmatched survivability, it can stick around till late game, and it does so without much effort, and does sweep late game, similarly to swellow. Thats pretty much my point why its broken with stall, Stall and Shaymin are awesome at getting rid of the opponent's walls who lack recovery, and the fact that Crobat has some functionability with stall (unlike Swellow) makes it just too much for this metagame to handle.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Exactly! That outlined my exact point, pretty much. All of Swellows counters are essentially Shaymin bait, BUT, it is incredibly difficult to keep swellow alive long enough to do this, but if you keep him around untill late game, you are going to have a high possibility to sweep. With Crobat's near unmatched survivability, it can stick around till late game, and it does so without much effort, and does sweep late game, similarly to swellow. Thats pretty much my point why its broken with stall, Stall and Shaymin are awesome at getting rid of the opponent's walls who lack recovery, and the fact that Crobat has some functionability with stall (unlike Swellow) makes it just too much for this metagame to handle.

What I was stating was that the mere presence of Swellow's counters on a team, regardless of whether or not your opponent has a Swellow, or what he does do with it if he does have one, lets Shaymin have an easy switch in. Crobat forces you to use Shaymin bait. So does Swellow. It is an issue of what the Pokemon in question forces you to use. Crobat is not broken because it forces you to use Shaymin bait as counters, seeing as other Pokemon force you to use Shaymin bait as counters, such as Arcanine and Swellow.

Swellow's survivability does not apply in this case. Even though it is somewhat frail, you're going to have to use Shaymin bait to counter it, unless you rely solely on priority and/or Choice Scarf.

 

[d2m]

What I was stating was that the mere presence of Swellow's counters on a team, regardless of whether or not your opponent has a Swellow, or what he does do with it if he does have one, lets Shaymin have an easy switch in. Crobat forces you to use Shaymin bait. So does Swellow. It is an issue of what the Pokemon in question forces you to use. Crobat is not broken because it forces you to use Shaymin bait as counters, seeing as other Pokemon force you to use Shaymin bait as counters, such as Arcanine and Swellow.

Swellow's survivability does not apply in this case. Even though it is somewhat frail, you're going to have to use Shaymin bait to counter it, unless you rely solely on priority and/or Choice Scarf.

You're latching on to one point and missing all the other points, like Crobat's survivability, it can also destroy setup with taunt, and can wall a large part of the tier, unlike Swellow. That is in addition to forcing Shaymin bait on a team, thus the Shaymin/Crobat combo will both wall and threaten almost the entire tier.

 

[Heysup]

What I was stating was that the mere presence of Swellow's counters on a team, regardless of whether or not your opponent has a Swellow, or what he does do with it if he does have one, lets Shaymin have an easy switch in. Crobat forces you to use Shaymin bait. So does Swellow. It is an issue of what the Pokemon in question forces you to use. Crobat is not broken because it forces you to use Shaymin bait as counters, seeing as other Pokemon force you to use Shaymin bait as counters, such as Arcanine and Swellow.

Swellow's survivability does not apply in this case. Even though it is somewhat frail, you're going to have to use Shaymin bait to counter it, unless you rely solely on priority and/or Choice Scarf.

You can't just say that and expect it to hold ground after I have thoroughly explained why Swellow would be immensely broken if it had Crobat's survivability.

Swellow is near unstoppable with it's counters out of the way (Ironically, Crobat stops it as well). Since this seems to be a case of me saying "yes, because", and you saying "no, that doesnt matter", let me just sum up the reasons for Crobat being broken:

-Sweeps similar to Swellow, but can easily stick around till late game, and can definitely take a couple hits while its sweeping. Unlike Swellow, who is easily revenge killed by random Pokemon such as LO Blaziken (VW), and is on a timer with Burn / Toxic Orb, and Stealth Rock damage is irreversable without the defenses to use Roost....the list goes on.

-Checks a shit-ton of the offensive metagame, basically anything except for Rock-types.

-Counters are all terribly slow / Stall bait. Drapion, Shaymin and ,Omastar especially counter these threats, allowing Stall to easily set up. Shaymin should be emphasized however.

-Basically the fastest Pokemon in the metagame. Well technically, its the second fastest Pokemon in the metagame, and Electrode is a lead, so it wont be around mid / late game anyway (if its in the game at all); so its the "Fastest" Pokemon in the metagame 99% of the time.

-Has an absolutely amazing support movepool, eg. U-turn, Whirlwind, Taunt.

-Has near unmatched survivability (allowing it to sweep late game, as said in the first point). This is sort of spread into all of the other points, but it needs emphasis. Nothing, I repeat, nothing, has the same survivability as Crobat. Basically no offensive Pokemon can take it out, which leaves weak defensive Pokemon to have to KO it, which they often cant due to Roost*.

*Amazing Resistances, the fact that it forces out so many Pokemon, and decent defenses allow it to Roost off stealth rock damage with ease, and staying in the game. Roost also only gives it two weaknesses, Psychic, and Ground.

All of these points make Crobat near-broken on a regular team (without previously mentioned Shaymin and company). However, once combined with these stall team tools, Crobat becomes out of control, being able to Phaze and check a ridiculous amount of the metagame while its hanging around, and then being able to easily SWEEP a significant portion of the metagame without any set up, using its base 120 Power STAB move, and near unmatched speed. Doing all of this while being a god damn purple bat.

 

[Mattman324]

What about Porygon2? I know I can't be the only one who uses him....

Have you all forgoten about me already?

Anyway, I think I'm starting to see what you mean when you say crobat is bl. Though my trick room team handles it perfectly, (only Slowking really cares about it, and even then only barely) a lot of people have complained about it. I compare it to Deoxes-s, in that bulky pokemon are needed to stop it. Still, defensive Manectric... I think I have a second team idea coming on.

 

[A.P.]

Stealth Rock damage is irreversable without the defenses to use Roost.

Actually, I have used Swellow with Roost to great success. Swellow is so good at forcing Pokémon out, it can easily Roost once or twice on the switch. After the opponents start predicting Roosts, simply U-turn the hell out of there. It requires some prediction, but works like a charm.

I'm with you on Crobat, though. It is an awesome anti-noob Pokémon, since it's hard to beat it without prediction. If you know it's coming in, then it can easily be beaten, though. For example, your Blaziken set hits it for over 70-80% with Fire Blast, and for me, regularly hits around 90%. But I guess that exactly is why it's so broken - simply because you HAVE to predict it to beat it, leaving no room for error.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

You're latching on to one point and missing all the other points, like Crobat's survivability, it can also destroy setup with taunt, and can wall a large part of the tier, unlike Swellow. That is in addition to forcing Shaymin bait on a team, thus the Shaymin/Crobat combo will both wall and threaten almost the entire tier.

If you want to counter Swellow, you have to carry Shaymin bait. It doesn't matter what its defenses are; they are irrelevant in this argument. HeySup, you have a Regirock on your team; you have Shaymin bait. If you didn't, you would be all but swept by Swellow, whether it had its own defenses, that of Crobat's, or that of Sharpedo's. Sure, Blaziken can revenge kill, but I can just switch out. See, this is why defense doesn't matter in this argument. I'm not dismissing Crobat's defensive qualities; I'm just saying they are independent of what it forces a team to use.

You can't just say that and expect it to hold ground after I have thoroughly explained why Swellow would be immensely broken if it had Crobat's survivability.

You actually have not explained it at all. You've just stated that it would be broken if it had Crobat's survivability, without anything to back it up.

-Sweeps similar to Swellow, but can easily stick around till late game, and can definitely take a couple hits while its sweeping. Unlike Swellow, who is easily revenge killed by random Pokemon such as LO Blaziken (VW), and is on a timer with Burn / Toxic Orb, and Stealth Rock damage is irreversable without the defenses to use Roost....the list goes on.

And since it sweeps similarly to Swellow, it is stopped cold by a certain group of Pokemon. Revenge killed is not a viable argument since that means Swellow has already killed something, not to mention many of the Pokemon that revenge kill Swellow also revenge kill Crobat, sans Fighters.

-Checks a shit-ton of the offensive metagame, basically anything except for Rock-types.

It's a stellar check, but definitely not broken as a counter. You're not going to switch your Crobat in on Arcanine, Azumarill, or Magmortar in most circumstances. Espeon cannot switch in on Crobat, but neither can Crobat on Espeon. It does not shut down offense until you are unable to force it out.

-Counters are all terribly slow / Stall bait. Drapion, Shaymin and ,Omastar especially counter these threats, allowing Stall to easily set up. Shaymin should be emphasized however.

Again, the same applies to Swellow and Arcanine.

-Basically the fastest Pokemon in the metagame. Well technically, its the second fastest Pokemon in the metagame, and Electrode is a lead, so it wont be around mid / late game anyway (if its in the game at all); so its the "Fastest" Pokemon in the metagame 99% of the time.

Considering that there is always a fastest Pokemon in a metagame, this point is a bit irrelevant.

-Has an absolutely amazing support movepool, eg. U-turn, Whirlwind, Taunt.

That's not broken by itself; you'll have to emphasize why.

-Has near unmatched survivability (allowing it to sweep late game, as said in the first point). This is sort of spread into all of the other points, but it needs emphasis. Nothing, I repeat, nothing, has the same survivability as Crobat. Basically no offensive Pokemon can take it out, which leaves weak defensive Pokemon to have to KO it, which they often cant due to Roost*.

*Amazing Resistances, the fact that it forces out so many Pokemon, and decent defenses allow it to Roost off stealth rock damage with ease, and staying in the game. Roost also only gives it two weaknesses, Psychic, and Ground.

A lot of Pokemon have been posted already that can take it out. Arcanine, Relicanth, Omastar, etc.

All of these points make Crobat near-broken on a regular team (without previously mentioned Shaymin and company). However, once combined with these stall team tools, Crobat becomes out of control, being able to Phaze and check a ridiculous amount of the metagame while its hanging around, and then being able to easily SWEEP a significant portion of the metagame without any set up, using its base 120 Power STAB move, and near unmatched speed. Doing all of this while being a god damn purple bat.

How can a stall team set up Spikes? According to you, Crobat kills set-up, while Omastar is Shaymin bait, so it should be impossible for Roserade and Omastar to do anything.

 

[Heysup]

If you want to counter Swellow, you have to carry Shaymin bait. It doesn't matter what its defenses are; they are irrelevant in this argument. HeySup, you have a Regirock on your team; you have Shaymin bait. If you didn't, you would be all but swept by Swellow, whether it had its own defenses, that of Crobat's, or that of Sharpedo's. Sure, Blaziken can revenge kill, but I can just switch out. See, this is why defense doesn't matter in this argument. I'm not dismissing Crobat's defensive qualities; I'm just saying they are independent of what it forces a team to use.

Thats just wrong because Swellow is KO'ed incredibly easily therefore has a much harder time sweeping late game (because it isnt around). For example, when I switch in Regirock on Swellow, it can only switch in 3-ish more times. However Crobat can switch in untill its hearts content. THAT is the main difference between the two.

Switching out vs Blaziken? When has that ever been a good thing to do? Switching out vs Blaziken is basically sending one of your Pokemon into die 50% of the time.

You actually have not explained it at all. You've just stated that it would be broken if it had Crobat's survivability, without anything to back it up.

I explained it in a couple posts actually. What I said was basically that Swellow is ONLY containable, because it cannot survive untill late game without Crobat's survivability. This makes a HUGE difference when you actually consider how dangerous Swellow would be late game, without your counters. If Swellow could actually survive long enough easily, like Crobat, we would likely have another case of a BL nomination on our hands.

And since it sweeps similarly to Swellow, it is stopped cold by a certain group of Pokemon. Revenge killed is not a viable argument since that means Swellow has already killed something, not to mention many of the Pokemon that revenge kill Swellow also revenge kill Crobat, sans Fighters.

You're missing the point, Swellow is stopped cold, and dies after a couple switch-ins. Crobat, however, is stopped cold, and but can switch back in on one of the many Pokemon it can check / counter and Roost back to full HP. Again, unlike Swellow who doesnt have the defenses or checking ability to do this.

It's a stellar check, but definitely not broken as a counter. You're not going to switch your Crobat in on Arcanine, Azumarill, or Magmortar in most circumstances. Espeon cannot switch in on Crobat, but neither can Crobat on Espeon. It does not shut down offense until you are unable to force it out.

Its not about countering, its about Checking. Crobat is terribly hard to force out at all. Especially when you are using frailer offensive Pokemon.

Again, the same applies to Swellow and Arcanine.

Again, they dont have the survivability to last untill late game, or check the same Pokemon. Can I ask why YOU dont use Swellow over Crobat on your Stall team? You can explain this better than me, too be honest.

Considering that there is always a fastest Pokemon in a metagame, this point is a bit irrelevant.

That's not broken by itself; you'll have to emphasize why.

I was trying to point out how all together, you have a Broken Pokemon, its not broken for one reason.

A lot of Pokemon have been posted already that can take it out. Arcanine, Relicanth, Omastar, etc.

Same Rock types as usual. They can force it out, only to be switched into by Shaymin and OHKOed.

How can a stall team set up Spikes? According to you, Crobat kills set-up, while Omastar is Shaymin bait, so it should be impossible for Roserade and Omastar to do anything.

But Shaymin is an offense check, not a stall check. Shaymin is walled to hell and back by Chansey and Crobat. The fact that stall has many, many, checks for shaymin is a big reason that Crobat is nearly unstoppable on it.

I just want to know the answer to the question I asked above: Why do you use Crobat over Swellow on your Stall team? (Repeated from above)

 

[MagicMaster87]

All of these points make Crobat near-broken on a regular team (without previously mentioned Shaymin and company). However, once combined with these stall team tools, Crobat becomes out of control, being able to Phaze and check a ridiculous amount of the metagame while its hanging around, and then being able to easily SWEEP a significant portion of the metagame without any set up, using its base 120 Power STAB move, and near unmatched speed. Doing all of this while being a god damn purple bat.

Even though I'm one of those that believe Crobat isn't quite BL, if I can fit it, this entire paragraph is going into my sig.
*EDIT*
Had to cut out the first line, but I did it! :D

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Thats just wrong because Swellow is KO'ed incredibly easily therefore has a much harder time sweeping late game (because it isnt around). For example, when I switch in Regirock on Swellow, it can only switch in 3-ish more times. However Crobat can switch in untill its hearts content. THAT is the main difference between the two.

Switching out vs Blaziken? When has that ever been a good thing to do? Switching out vs Blaziken is basically sending one of your Pokemon into die 50% of the time.

It's not wrong; I said your team without Regirock. That's my point. The presence of Regirock, while it essentially stops Swellow from sweeping, gives Shaymin a free switch-in. This isn't about Swellow actually sweeping, it's about Swellow having the potential to sweep, which forces you to use a Shaymin-bait counter.

And considering the fact you're attacking me with a 40 bp move, it sounds like a good idea to me.

I explained it in a couple posts actually. What I said was basically that Swellow is ONLY containable, because it cannot survive untill late game without Crobat's survivability. This makes a HUGE difference when you actually consider how dangerous Swellow would be late game, without your counters. If Swellow could actually survive long enough easily, like Crobat, we would likely have another case of a BL nomination on our hands.

Again, they dont have the survivability to last untill late game, or check the same Pokemon.

Well if you don't use their Shaymin bait counters they don't even have to survive until late game; they'll cause it. Also, Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.

You're missing the point, Swellow is stopped cold, and dies after a couple switch-ins. Crobat, however, is stopped cold, and but can switch back in on one of the many Pokemon it can check / counter and Roost back to full HP. Again, unlike Swellow who doesnt have the defenses or checking ability to do this.

Its not about countering, its about Checking. Crobat is terribly hard to force out at all. Especially when you are using frailer offensive Pokemon.

It's forced out again then. And once Crobat is out of play, even for a just a moment, it loses a lot of its ability to check. How many Pokemon are there that Crobat "checks" that does not have a move that can KO/cripple/deal massive damage to a Crobat switching in? Crobat does not fully counter the majority of the metagame, in the same way that say Chansey does to Yanmega.

Same Rock types as usual. They can force it out, only to be switched into by Shaymin and OHKOed.

Shaymin isn't invincible. It's going to have to either recover on the next turn or be worn down by various Rock-attacks. And then what does it accomplish?

But Shaymin is an offense check, not a stall check. Shaymin is walled to hell and back by Chansey and Crobat. The fact that stall has many, many, checks for shaymin is a big reason that Crobat is nearly unstoppable on it.

Why can't an offensive team have a Crobat?

I just want to know the answer to the question I asked above: Why do you use Crobat over Swellow on your Stall team?

Survivability. But again, survivability is not an issue if you cannot even deal with the Pokemon.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

It's not wrong; I said your team without Regirock. That's my point. The presence of Regirock, while it essentially stops Swellow from sweeping, gives Shaymin a free switch-in. This isn't about Swellow actually sweeping, it's about Swellow having the potential to sweep, which forces you to use a Shaymin-bait counter.

And considering the fact you're attacking me with a 40 bp move, it sounds like a good idea to me.

1) U-turn has 70 BP
2) That is exactly his point. Using Regirock to slow down Crobat gives other pokemon free switch-ins, helping them sweep. That sounds pretty supportive to me.

Also, Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.

Hahahahahaha, is this serious? Sure, Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it. Crobat, on the other hand, actually lets you use it AND it can stay around longer AND it can slow its counters down with Taunt. If youre argument is that Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it, that is just absolutely hilarious. You are completely missing the point. Crobat gives most of the advantages of Swellow, AND you can use it throughout the entire match. You can use Crobat as a lure for its own counters, whereas luring Swellow's counters out with Swellow forces you to take burn and unhealable SR damage.

Why can't an offensive team have a Crobat?

I'm not sure what he was getting at, Crobat excels on offensive teams because he completely stops other offensive teams after they have set up.

I wonder how much your opinion would change, EUM, if you didnt exclusively play stall. Crobat admittedly loses effectiveness when it struggles to OHKO most of your team, but I wonder what would happen if you were using a team that wasnt relying on sheer defensive stats to stick around.