np: UU - A Farewell To Kings

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

And while you don't *need* speed--a Pokemon with 0 base Speed and 1000 base in everything else, for example--it's clearly and obviously beneficial to an offensive Pokemon, and I really don't think that can be denied.

You’re completely missing the point here. What you said can just as easily apply to defensive Pokemon:

And while you don't *need* speed--a Pokemon with 0 base Speed and 1000 base in everything else, for example--it's clearly and obviously beneficial to a defensive Pokemon, and I really don't think that can be denied.

Which is true. Whilst walls don’t need to outrun the Pokemon they are walling, in many cases it would certainly be beneficial if they could, whether it be for fast recovery, status, screens or just killing them before they can get off the next hit. Crobat is actually the perfect example of this in UU (with Lugia obviously being the best overall example). Whilst Crobat has decent defenses to compliment its great resistances, its most valuable asset defensively is its speed, which allows it to recover before the second attack, sometimes halving damage in the process, or OHKO back first.

Similarly, there is such a thing as ‘bulky offense’, namely slow but very powerful Pokemon that can easily take hits that much faster Pokemon simply cannot. Pokemon like Rhydon and Relicanth are perfect for this role as they are very destructive and incredibly difficult to safely switch in to, but most importantly they can easily exploit Pokemon such as Crobat that all the fast but frail Pokemon have trouble with. Therefore there is no reason why these Pokemon cannot have good synergy with ‘typical’ offensive Pokemon. In fact, I have no sympathy for people who use nothing but fast, frail Pokemon for offense, i.e. the only kind you consider ‘viable’, if it means they are ignoring such an obvious metagame threat, nor would I hold that against Crobat in any way. It is not Crobat’s fault if people are stupid.

Rhydon has no SpD at all and its typing is downright bad for use in UU.

Yeah, Rock / Ground is a bad defensive typing overall, but offensively it is virtually unparalleled, especially when you consider that anything that resists it is mauled by Megahorn. Plus in the context of offensive teams, Rhydon has plenty of utility, because those ’dedicated’ defensive Pokemon you mentioned, as well as Crobat, are just the kind of Pokemon that typical offensive Pokes will have trouble with in the first place. Who cares if tons of Pokemon aren’t bothered by them? The fact remains that those bulky Pokemon with real punch to them like Rhydon are easily the best at taking advantage of the presence of these Pokemon in order to put the opponent on the back foot. If you don’t understand that concept then I honestly can’t help you.

And once again, stop using the U-turn argument as a get-out-of-jail-free card, for reasons stated throughout the thread. If Crobat keeps switching in on attacks and immediately spams U-turn, it will eventually die because it is not recovering any damage.

Yeah, you might kill something, if you predict right.

Correction: you WILL kill something if you predict right. That is the beauty of powerhouses like Rhydon, and the popularity of Crobat and other things that can’t hurt it one-in-one allows it a much easier time in making an impact.

 

[Stagnant]

WJC3688 it seems to me that you have never used Rhydon before. He absolutely mauls things. I suggest you test him out before you make such assumptions about his usefulness.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

His point wasn't that Rhydon is weak, it was that it has huge disadvantages against most of the metagame from a defensive standpoint. He was saying that if you really want to argue to "just use Rhydon defensively", that Rhydon is actually a very shitty pokemon to use defensively. As WJC pointed out, Crobat is one of the few things that Rhydon can actually switch into and force out.

I also really like the point that someone brought up, that Crobat can fit all of its best moves into one moveset. The most common moveset of Brave Bird/Roost/Taunt/U-turn is similar to how Garchomp didn't *need* to have a threatening SpAtk stat or a diverse movepool, because its 4 best moves were broken enough.

Also, I'm keeping a tally of how many KOs I get with Crobat, and how many matches my opponent has not set up SR. So far after 10 matches, I have 14 KOs with Crobat and only 4 people got SR up. Crobat has only been KOd 3 times out of 10 matches (which was why they got SR up in 3 of those 4 matches).

I'm going to be posting logs sometime soon, when I actually get the time to start playing again since everyone seems to doubt me when I am talking about Crobat. I figure all this theorymon is pointless unless I can actually show people how me and LN are abusing the fuck out of Crobat.

Both LonelyNess and I have skyrocketed to #5 and #3 on the UU ladder, respectively, using the same team, abusing the fuck out of Crobat. I know "ladder ratings are dumb" but what better way to prove our point that beating everyone on a consistent basis?

 

[WJC3688]

You’re completely missing the point here. What you said can just as easily apply to defensive Pokemon:

Sure it can. My point was simply that Speed is important and cannot be blown off as insignificant. What's your point?

That is the beauty of powerhouses like Rhydon, and the popularity of Crobat and other things that can’t hurt it one-in-one allows it a much easier time in making an impact.

Crobat "and other things." What other things? I suppose you didn't read my last post. In it, I detailed why I think that Rhydon is not "bulky" in the least, not within the UU metagame. Combine that with the fact that it outruns literally almost nothing, and it is simply not a good offensive Pokemon. The ability to hurt things by itself is not enough; Marowak, Clamperl and CB Medicham can cause serious pain to most Pokemon aswell, this alone doesn't mean that they are viable.

Who cares if tons of Pokemon aren’t bothered by them? The fact remains that those bulky Pokemon with real punch to them like Rhydon are easily the best at taking advantage of the presence of these Pokemon in order to put the opponent on the back foot.

Switching in on Registeel while it uses Stealth Rock does not make Rhydon a "bulky" Pokemon. If the ability to switch in on that makes an offensive Pokemon totally viable, then I'll just stick with Blaziken. He's much faster than Rhydon, the almighty Crobat can't switch into him either lest it eat Fire Blast or Flare Blitz, and he's atleast as easy to revenge kill (on the one hand Crobat can revenge Blaziken and not Rhydon, but on the other hand, most of everything else can revenge Rhydon).

WJC3688 it seems to me that you have never used Rhydon before. He absolutely mauls things. I suggest you test him out before you make such assumptions about his usefulness.

So, are you going to try and actually refute the things I've said, or......?

 

[A.P.]

So, are you going to try and actually refute the things I've said, or......?

He meant, that if you don't use the Pokémon in question, you can't give a good judgement on it. You may know how to beat it, but that doesn't give you the knowledge of how to use it and what it can do.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Sure it can. My point was simply that Speed is important and cannot be blown off as insignificant. What's your point?

My point is that not everything needs to be super fast to be good offensively, whereas you seem to be implying otherwise. Slow, powerful Rock types make good switches into Pokemon like Crobat that would otherwise give offensive teams trouble, then immediately threaten. It's called playing to resistances, which is one of the most important factors in a successful offensive play. I don't see how that can be confusing.

Crobat "and other things." What other things? I suppose you didn't read my last post. In it, I detailed why I think that Rhydon is not "bulky" in the least, not within the UU metagame. Combine that with the fact that it outruns literally almost nothing, and it is simply not a good offensive Pokemon. The ability to hurt things by itself is not enough; Marowak, Clamperl and CB Medicham can cause serious pain to most Pokemon aswell, this alone doesn't mean that they are viable.

The things you mentioned, slow walls like the Regis, Clefable, Chansey etc, as well as some speedy ones like Uxie. There are other common Pokes like Slowbro and Spiritomb that it can also outrun, so to say that it outruns almost nothing is simply not true at all. If you're going to argue that Crobat is never paired up with the likes of Registeel, Chansey, Clefable etc then I don't know what to say because there is nothing more obviously common than that in the current metagame. There could be as many as four Pokemon on a stall team that Rhydon can outspeed, as it isn't uncommon for Spiritomb, Steelix or Slowbro to be paired with such Pokemon either.

As for the Pokemon you mentioned, there is nothing to say that they aren't viable either, but they are somewhat easier to switch into and deal with, and since the current topic is about Crobat obviously these Pokemon aren't going to be brought up.

Switching in on Registeel while it uses Stealth Rock does not make Rhydon a "bulky" Pokemon. If the ability to switch in on that makes an offensive Pokemon totally viable, then I'll just stick with Blaziken. He's much faster than Rhydon, the almighty Crobat can't switch into him either lest it eat Fire Blast or Flare Blitz, and he's atleast as easy to revenge kill (on the one hand Crobat can revenge Blaziken and not Rhydon, but on the other hand, most of everything else can revenge Rhydon).

It isn't about Crobat being able to switch in to it, it's the other way round. This idea that every Pokemon has to be able to switch in to the vast majority of Pokemon you are likely to encounter is completely stupid. Rhydon can switch in to certain Pokemon that other offensive Pokemon can't quite so well, which gives it good synergy with said Pokemon. If something needs to be revenge-killed at any point, then that something has already made an impact, therefore not useless. I'm therefore not buying this 'Rhydon is crap offensively' nonsense in the slightest, especially when it is obvious you haven't playtested Rhydon yourself.

 

[A.P.]

Switching in on Registeel while it uses Stealth Rock does not make Rhydon a "bulky" Pokemon. If the ability to switch in on that makes an offensive Pokemon totally viable, then I'll just stick with Blaziken. He's much faster than Rhydon, the almighty Crobat can't switch into him either lest it eat Fire Blast or Flare Blitz, and he's atleast as easy to revenge kill (on the one hand Crobat can revenge Blaziken and not Rhydon, but on the other hand, most of everything else can revenge Rhydon).

It isn't about Crobat being able to switch in to it, it's the other way round. This idea that every Pokemon has to be able to switch in to the vast majority of Pokemon you are likely to encounter is completely stupid. Rhydon can switch in to certain Pokemon that other offensive Pokemon can't quite so well, which gives it good synergy with said Pokemon. If something needs to be revenge-killed at any point, then that something has already made an impact, therefore not useless. I'm therefore not buying this 'Rhydon is crap offensively' nonsense in the slightest, especially when it is obvious you haven't playtested Rhydon yourself.

In other words, WJC3368, there's a reason why Pokémon is a team game. One Pokémon by itself cannot be judged by itself. There are six.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

I thought we were discussing Pokemon that switch in on Crobat and threaten it? Have fun taking on Crobat with Blaziken. And while you don't *need* speed--a Pokemon with 0 base Speed and 1000 base in everything else, for example--it's clearly and obviously beneficial to an offensive Pokemon, and I really don't think that can be denied.

I was using Blaziken as an example of an effective, not-that-fast sweeper (the 20 speed evs one) - not a Crobat counter. And Crobat can't safely switch in on it, either.

Mesprit's fast? The only fast Mesprit is the Choice Scarf version. And Uxie? Uxie may be fast, but how often are their sweeper Uxies, off Uxie's pathetic attacking stats? IT shines at defense, so that's where it should be used.

Relatively fast. Mespirit is a bit middling, I guess. 80 isn't THAT slow. And I didn't really mean Uxie was a sweeper, just that it was fast.

Both LonelyNess and I have skyrocketed to #5 and #3 on the UU ladder, respectively, using the same team, abusing the fuck out of Crobat. I know "ladder ratings are dumb" but what better way to prove our point that beating everyone on a consistent basis?

Well, I'm #1 (and a few other places) using teams with checks that are apparently supposed to be worn down by Crobat (Luxray and Omastar on one, Magneton on another, and Omastar, Uxie, and Kabutops on a final). I have never had notable problems with Crobat.

 

[Heysup]

People are often missing the point.

Crobat doesnt COUNTER a huge portion of the metagame, it CHECKS them. It basically insures that a team is not swept by nearly any means, if at all. No sweepers that are fast enough to actually "sweep" (Blaziken isnt a "Sweeper" so to speak, its a "wall breaking sweeper", it sweeps walls) can do so while Crobat is around, and frankly Crobat is ridiculously hard to take down.

Jrrrr that team has trouble against Anti-Crobat Teams (in my experience vs LonelyNess at least), but yea, its a really good team that abuses Crobat quite well. My "new" team would probably suck it up if Crobat wasnt being abused everywhere.

Eo, while you have a valid point, Crobat isnt AS Broken on their team as it is on your near-perfect(imo) stall team. The point is that you dont have problems with Crobat, and almost every offensive team does.

Pertaining to my "main" team: I cannot sweep with Blaziken, because you have Crobat. I cannot sweep with Missy because of Crobat. I cannot sweep with Espeon or Shaymin because of Crobat (assuming I get lucky and trick chansey or something). Thats 4 of my team that is not only checked, but SWEPT by Crobat. My team isnt even "weak" to crobat because of Regirock, its just offensive checks for Crobat have severe issues staying alive against a stall team, as all of them basically share a collective Shaymin / Omastar weakness which are easily abused by stall.

The difference is, that stall cannot be swept by Crobat, while offense is EASILY swept by Crobat.

The point is, Crobat checks at least 80%+ of the offensive sweepers in the metagame, while the rest are painfully weak to Omastar, Shaymin, Drapion, etc Pokemon that are easily (and almost always) included in a stall team.

A stall team that cannot be swept is beaten how? Thats why its broken.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The point is, Crobat checks at least 80%+ of the offensive sweepers in the metagame, while the rest are painfully weak to Omastar, Shaymin, Drapion, etc Pokemon that are easily (and almost always) included in a stall team.

Yeah, this is part of what I'm saying. The pokemon that counter Crobat have common weaknesses that are extremely easy to exploit. And besides, Crobat doesn't have to KO its counters to support its team. The fact that it checks an astronomically high portion of the metagame is just an added bonus.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The difference is, that stall cannot be swept by Crobat, while offense is EASILY swept by Crobat.

The point is, Crobat checks at least 80%+ of the offensive sweepers in the metagame, while the rest are painfully weak to Omastar, Shaymin, Drapion, etc Pokemon that are easily (and almost always) included in a stall team.

A stall team that cannot be swept is beaten how? Thats why its broken.

This argument would have plenty of merit if it turned out that stall with Crobat really is unbeatable and broken, but so far I've not noticed anything of the sort. I for one have never had problems with such teams, and you yourself have mentioned that you've been running a successful team that has little to no problem as well. I don't understand why you'd ask that supposedly rhetorical question when you've already answered it yourself, unless I've completely misinterpreted. Plus the team I'm currently using is almost completely distinguishable from yours apart from Hitmontop, who isn't part of the anti-Crobat initiative, so it isn't really a centralization issue either.

One thing I forgot to pick up on before:

Both LonelyNess and I have skyrocketed to #5 and #3 on the UU ladder, respectively, using the same team, abusing the fuck out of Crobat. I know "ladder ratings are dumb" but what better way to prove our point that beating everyone on a consistent basis?

You're right, ladder ratings don't mean much in this case. I've topped the ladder with a Shedinja team in the past, but I was never going to believe that Shedinja was worthy of a ban, or even worthy of genuine UU status, even though I was "abusing the fuck out of it". Battle logs would be a far better way of proving your point, provided they aren't biased, i.e. you also show logs of battles you lost, if any.

Until then, it is getting increasingly hard to believe what you and others are consistently pointing out as fact, particularly when arguably the best UU player at the moment, EOM, is adamantly in disagreement.

 

[guoguo]

Pertaining to my "main" team: I cannot sweep with Blaziken, because you have Crobat. I cannot sweep with Missy because of Crobat. I cannot sweep with Espeon or Shaymin because of Crobat (assuming I get lucky and trick chansey or something). Thats 4 of my team that is not only checked, but SWEPT by Crobat. My team isnt even "weak" to crobat because of Regirock, its just offensive checks for Crobat have severe issues staying alive against a stall team, as all of them basically share a collective Shaymin / Omastar weakness which are easily abused by stall.

You have four offensive pokemon that can't sweep because of Crobat, and you use a defensive pokemon to counter it? That might be why you're so weak to it. All Regirock can do is force Crobat out. It will never kill a Crobat unless the opponent lets you do it and it probably will not be able to kill anything that's going to switch into it unless it's using Explosion. What you need is an offensive check to Crobat that can beat other stall pokemon i.e. scarfed Gardevoir, which can outspeed and OHKO Crobat with Psychic, Trick to beat the Chansey, or WoW/Hypnosis to cripple other switch-ins.

 

[Heysup]

You have four offensive pokemon that can't sweep because of Crobat, and you use a defensive pokemon to counter it? That might be why you're so weak to it. All Regirock can do is force Crobat out. It will never kill a Crobat unless the opponent lets you do it and it probably will not be able to kill anything that's going to switch into it unless it's using Explosion. What you need is an offensive check to Crobat that can beat other stall pokemon i.e. scarfed Gardevoir, which can outspeed and OHKO Crobat with Psychic, Trick to beat the Chansey, or WoW/Hypnosis to cripple other switch-ins.

Thanks for outlining me and Jrrrr's main point. There are basically none.

Scarfed Gardevoir cannot check Crobat very well at all, its practically useless against anything else, and definately cant break stall. NO Psychic Pokemon can break stall with Spiritomb around. Hypnosis / wow are useless when all of the Pokemon have natural cure or rest, or even both.

 

[guoguo]

Thanks for outlining me and Jrrrr's main point. There are basically none.

Scarfed Gardevoir cannot check Crobat very well at all, its practically useless against anything else, and definately cant break stall. NO Psychic Pokemon can break stall with Spiritomb around. Hypnosis / wow are useless when all of the Pokemon have natural cure or rest, or even both.

You seem to responding to an argument about a Scarfed Gardevoir that doesn't use Trick. Either you have misread my post, are responding to a different post but mistakenly attributed the quote to me, or simply chose to ignore the fact that Trick was part of moveset. Once locked onto a single move, Spiritomb either loses its recovery move or becomes set-up bait for another pokemon. Either way, the stall is broken.

In addition, WoW/Hypnosis are far from useless on a pokemon with Natural Cure or Rest. A pokemon has to switch out or inflict itself with a less crippling status to get rid of yours, in which case you've basically accomplished the goal that you set out to do.

Edit: But I should really get back on topic. I don't have too much against Crobat as I do against other combinations. In most cases, Crobat can be beaten by simply exploiting its weaknesses, namely to Rock-type moves. Get Stealth Rock up with something that can also threaten Crobat (ie Steelix with an ATK investment). Double switch into Crobat with something that can outdamage Crobat's Roost. This will force Crobat out. Repeat as necessary and let SR damage stack. The Crobat switch-in is generally predictable because there are so few counters to pokemon such as Shaymin. If the opponent doesn't switch in Crobat, then you'll have limited the opposing Crobat's role in the game.

 

[d2m]

You seem to responding to an argument about a Scarfed Gardevoir that doesn't use Trick. Either you have misread my post, are responding to a different post but mistakenly attributed the quote to me, or simply chose to ignore the fact that Trick was part of moveset. Once locked onto a single move, Spiritomb either loses its recovery move or becomes set-up bait for another pokemon. Either way, the stall is broken.

In addition, WoW/Hypnosis are far from useless on a pokemon with Natural Cure or Rest. A pokemon has to switch out or inflict itself with a less crippling status to get rid of yours, in which case you've basically accomplished the goal that you set out to do.

If you switch a Gardevoir into a Spiritomb (and manage to not get killed by Dark Pulse) then they will know something's up and swap out to something that doesn't mind a scarf/specs/whatever. It would only be useful at hitting him on the switch.

That said, Hypnosis has low base accuracy, any non-physical attacker doesn't mind a burn, and Gardevoir cannot switch in to a Brave Bird or Dark Pulse without being severely maimed.

All that said, a scarfdevoir is not useful at all against the majority of teams. It can clinch against one or two specific threats, but Dual Screens Gardevoir or something else with trick (like Rotom or Mismagius, both are less fragile than gardevoir and have 2 immunities) is a much better option for most teams.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The fact that im successfully using the team im using is evidence that Crobat is overcentralizing. When a team of "Pure" Crobat counters is successful....

You have no problem with these Crobat teams because you (unless i misunderstand) also use a similar team to mine.

My current team consists of Regirock, Clefable, Hitmontop, Honchkrow, Qwilfish and Shedinja. Apart from Regirock, would you consider any of those Pokemon to be generically anti-Crobat in any way? Just because my team is so designed to not give Crobat much if any breathing space does NOT mean I'm overcentralizing against it. It's just a perfectly logical strategic element, i.e. covering the big threats as best you can. It seems to me that your argument can be roughly translated as 'if your team doesn't give Crobat an easy time then it is overcentralizing', which to me is completely and utterly absurd. Accusing people for not putting themselves at an obvious disadvantage? What kind of logic is that?

EDIT:

(like Rotom or Mismagius, both are less fragile than gardevoir and have 2 immunities)

If you can't at least get a few simple facts right in your argument then I'd suggest saving yourself the embarrassment and not post at all.

 

[d2m]

If you can't at least get a few simple facts right in your argument then I'd suggest saving yourself the embarrassment and not post at all.

Two immunities and less weaknesses (ghost is weak to dark/ghost while psychic is weak to dark/ghost/bug, not to mention ghost's superior resistences) and higher speed (albeit to outspeed other scarfers) make up for the few base stat points Gardevoir has on Mismagius, plus Gardevoir has less physical defense than Rotom.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Two immunities and less weaknesses (ghost is weak to dark/ghost while psychic is weak to dark/ghost/bug, not to mention ghost's superior resistences) and higher speed (albeit to outspeed other scarfers) make up for the few base stat points Gardevoir has on Mismagius, plus Gardevoir has less physical defense than Rotom.

Rotom: 50/77/77
Mismagius: 60/60/105

Gardevoir: 68/65/115

Rotom's slightly higher defense stat is offset by Gardevoir's significantly higher HP stat, and Gardevoir has greater SpD. In exceeds Mismagius in all stats as well.

Out of the three, though, Rotom is obviously the best choice to check Crobat, which is where this petty debate originated iirc.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

If you switch a Gardevoir into a Spiritomb (and manage to not get killed by Dark Pulse) then they will know something's up and swap out to something that doesn't mind a scarf/specs/whatever. It would only be useful at hitting him on the switch.

Considering that nothing like switching into high-powered Psychics more than Spiritomb (which is basically not hampered by anything Gardevoir can throw at it), is it really that hard to expect that someone with Spiritomb will bringing it into Gardevoir? And if you're bringing Gardevoir (a mon that can't effectively threaten Spiritomb) in on a Tomb, you've got bigger problems than just failing the trickscarf.

 

[d2m]

Considering that nothing like switching into high-powered Psychics more than Spiritomb (which is basically not hampered by anything Gardevoir can throw at it), is it really that hard to expect that someone with Spiritomb will bringing it into Gardevoir? And if you're bringing Gardevoir (a mon that can't effectively threaten Spiritomb) in on a Tomb, you've got bigger problems than just failing the trickscarf.

That may be, but if they're using Gardevoir to counter Crobat, then they'll be using Psychic, not trick, and just end up being locked into that. Even switching Gardevoir into Crobat is suspect (if it switches into a U-turn, it's in trouble, a Brave Bird will damage it quite a bit, and if it swaps in on Roost, it's suspect as hell.), I just don't see intelligent players falling for it.

 

[Technicolor Apocalypse]

I'm not surprised about the results, though I do miss Gallade. I'm sad that Porygon2 is used often anymore. It can counter a good portion of the metagame.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I'm not surprised about the results, though I do miss Gallade. I'm sad that Porygon2 is used often anymore. It can counter a good portion of the metagame.

Porygon2 seems to be a pretty decent lead IMO, I used it on a Trick Room team for a while and it worked very well. Discharge will rape any Crobat foolish enough to stay in and Taunt it with its paralysis rate (which allowed me to almost always get Trick Room set up on it, only once did a Crobat ever stay in and Taunt), Arcanine leads are crippled somewhat by their own abilities unless they go completely special, which I've only seen on Sunny Day teams, and Roserade will give you Natural Cure to get rid of sleep if it decides to do that, or you could use Magic Coat to put IT to sleep. If you go with Charge Beam (which I did on my team since opponent's paralysis isn't fun for a Trick Room team), you even get a boost from Ambipom's Technician. It's too bad Discharge isn't 60 base power like I initially thought it was, otherwise it would almost always be better than using Charge Beam...

 

[Lou Cypher]

Scarfed Gardevoir cannot check Crobat very well at all, its practically useless against anything else, and definately cant break stall. NO Psychic Pokemon can break stall with Spiritomb around. Hypnosis / wow are useless when all of the Pokemon have natural cure or rest, or even both.

I may not be such a big name, but I can definitely tell you that you, sir, are wrong. Lead Gardevoir vs. Lead Crobat = Dead Crobat. Also kills pretty every other lead...except Ambipom, and sometimes Arcanine. Thanks to Trace you also mop up Yanmega.
As for Stall teams - Gardevoir can hit hard enough to smack stuff around, and the dedicated special walls will quickly have to reveal themselves. Predict accordingly and hand Chansey/Spiritomb that Scarf, and if you EV'd right, you still outspeed most of that Stall team.
That, and Gardevoir happens to constantly force sweepers out as well, either that or she insta-kills them. Her Special Attack is NOTHING to scoff at. Add to that the fact that not many people instantly know what to expect and you got something rather threatening on your hands. I know, most of my wins are thanks to Gardevoir setting the playing field in my favor.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

You're right, ladder ratings don't mean much in this case. I've topped the ladder with a Shedinja team in the past, but I was never going to believe that Shedinja was worthy of a ban, or even worthy of genuine UU status, even though I was "abusing the fuck out of it". Battle logs would be a far better way of proving your point, provided they aren't biased, i.e. you also show logs of battles you lost, if any.

This is really irrelevant. Your team was built around protecting shedinja, LNs team literally could not even function without Crobat. Crobat's support makes it possible for the flyers to take out crobats counters. It literally enables other pokemon to sweep with little to no effort, in addition to averaging around 2 kos per match

Until then, it is getting increasingly hard to believe what you and others are consistently pointing out as fact, particularly when arguably the best UU player at the moment, EOM, is adamantly in disagreement.

How can this possibly make sense when almost every single team EOM has ever made uses Crobat? He didn't just magically rise up the ladder without it...

 

[WJC3688]

He meant, that if you don't use the Pokémon in question, you can't give a good judgement on it. You may know how to beat it, but that doesn't give you the knowledge of how to use it and what it can do.

I have indeed used Rhydon on the UU ladder, both the CB and the Rock Polish variants, and haven't been particularly impressed by either one, though Rock Polish does have more potential than Choice Band (in my opinion, at least). So what? That's not going to convince people who've also used Rhydon and are convinced that Rhydon is good. "I've used this Pokemon, therefore I am the authority on it" is just an opinion, and thus, doesn't even qualify as a legitimate argument.

My point is that not everything needs to be super fast to be good offensively, whereas you seem to be implying otherwise.

You conveniently forget to mention that Rhydon isn't just "not super fast," he's slower than the Regis. There's a big gap between "not super fast" and 40 base speed.

Slow, powerful Rock types make good switches into Pokemon like Crobat that would otherwise give offensive teams trouble, then immediately threaten. It's called playing to resistances, which is one of the most important factors in a successful offensive play. I don't see how that can be confusing.

This passage is irrelevant. My point here is that, if you're trying to use a Pokemon offensively, 40 base Speed is terrible and a very clear disadvantage. If you don't agree with that, then actually argue against that point instead of talking about other things like "it can switch into Crobat" and "It's called playing to resistances." Otherwise, drop it. If you want to argue other things, argue them in response to other points.

The things you mentioned, slow walls like the Regis, Clefable, Chansey etc, as well as some speedy ones like Uxie.

So you are admitting that aside from Crobat, he is only really coming in on extremely defensive Pokemon, and yet you still think he is a bulky Pokemon? Either Rhydon is most definitely not a bulky Pokemon, or only switching in on walls makes a Pokemon bulky. Let's clear this up, which one is it?

There are other common Pokes like Slowbro and Spiritomb that it can also outrun, so to say that it outruns almost nothing is simply not true at all.

Oh yes, Rhydon can outrun the base 30 Speed group, he's a quick one.

It isn't about Crobat being able to switch in to it, it's the other way round. This idea that every Pokemon has to be able to switch in to the vast majority of Pokemon you are likely to encounter is completely stupid.

Likewise, it isn't about Rhydon being able to switch into the vast majority of Pokemon, it's about Rhydon not being able to switch into anything other than walls and Crobat. I'd say that doesn't qualify him as a bulky Pokemon. I can repeat this all day, and you can actually respond to it, or you can continue to use terms which don't apply to my argument (clearly I have never stated that Rhydon's problem is that "he should be able to switch in on the vast majority of Pokemon"; these are words invented totally by you) and we'll fail to get anywhere.

Rhydon can switch in to certain Pokemon that other offensive Pokemon can't quite so well, which gives it good synergy with said Pokemon.

Aside from Crobat, what?

If something needs to be revenge-killed at any point, then that something has already made an impact, therefore not useless. I'm therefore not buying this 'Rhydon is crap offensively' nonsense in the slightest, especially when it is obvious you haven't playtested Rhydon yourself.

On exactly what evidence are you basing the conclusion that I haven't ever used Rhydon myself? The fact that my views on the subject aren't the same as yours? Because, clearly, anyone that doesn't see things the same way as you is a total idiot, and definitely couldn't possibly know what they're talking about.