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np: UU - A Farewell To Kings
- Thread starter RBG
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The only Normal attacker I can think of would be Swellow, but even there Rhydon is not as bulky as I would expect, Facade followed by U-Turn deals 48% average damage to 252/4 Adamant Rhydon (a defensive spread which I assume would be used on a CB variant). Which means that you are only coming in once, as after an initial Facade + U-Turn, two Facades will KO next time Rhydon tries to switch in.
Jolly Ambipom Brick Break vs 252/4 Adamant Rhydon: 30.92% average if holding Silf Scarf, 40.1% average if holding Life Orb. Granted, it seems as though less than half actually carried Brick Break in April. I'll buy this one, although it should be noted that, like Crobat, this guy likes to use U-Turn, and after seeing Rhydon will probably make use of it.
Arcanine, I'm not sold on.
Fire would be a cool resist if most Fire attacks weren't special and Rhydon's SDef wasn't total garbage. Its only real chance to wall Fire attackers is Arcanine, though Arcanine Fire Blast still does around 41% with no investment, so again you only switch in once, and you're always running the risk of HP Grass.
Rhydon's SDef is such that even resisted special attacks can cause significant harm to him. A Naive-natured Arcanine's Overheat and Iron Head do nearly the same damage to Rhydon, namely, both do amounts that are dangerously close to 50%. Add in the possibility of HP Grass; sure, most Arcanine don't carry it, but when they do have it, your designated "Arcanine counter" switches in, ready to kick some ass, only to be instantly obliterated, game over, without doing anything, by the Pokemon it was supposed to counter. The consequences are severe enough that the move deserves to be taken into account despite a low percentage of use. WoW's pretty bad too: Unless you are running CB then Arcanine can survive whatever STAB move you hit it with after burning you, but even though Arcanine is almost dead, Rhydon is now almost equally worthless, as a burned physical attacker with 40 base speed threatens nothing and Arcanine is probably going to hit it with something else before dying.
In April, 39.9% of Arcanine carried Overheat, 17.6% carried Iron Head, 15.1% carried HP Grass, 11.6% carried WoW, 8% carried Fire Blast, 7.2% carried Flamethrower. The stats have a "10" in parantheses beside "Other" under Moves. Arcanine sets are quite varied; while there are certainly going to be variants that Rhydon can successfully counter, I don't feel safe just switching in blindly and assuming that I'm totally safe without knowing the set that I'm up against.
Moltres absolutely does not provide Rhydon with a safe switch-in. Even if they lack HP Grass, Flamethrower from offensive variants still has a very high chance to 2HKO. If it's a defensive SubRoost variant, then I will repeat that it is going to do exactly that, stall Stone Edge out of PP with Sub and then laugh at you.
This is not true. Rotom can switch into Swellow Facades; Houndoom and Arcanine can switch into various Fire attacks; Rotom and Mismagius can even try to switch in on Ambipom. They run the risk that Ambipom carries Pursuit or Payback, but that's not so far removed from a Rhydon that blindly switches into Arcanine and just hopes that Arcanine has a set of Flare Blitz/ExtremeSpeed/Thunder Fang/HP Electric.
In any case, the reason that Rhydon can switch into a select few Pokemon which some "fast, frail" Pokemon cannot is because of its typing, which is totally non-existent amongst "fast, frail" Pokemon and thus provides Rhydon with a set of resistances which are not available to any of the "fast, frail" Pokemon. Just because its typing is different hardly means that it is better, though. While Rhydon can switch into Ambipom, Espeon can switch into Hitmontop, Mismagius can switch into Hitmonlee, Honchkrow can switch into Roserade, Swellow can switch into Torterra, Moltres can switch into Shaymin, etc.
Even "frail" Pokemon can afford to switch in once or twice on their resistances; it does not change the fact that they are frail. And if these are the only Pokemon which provide safe switches for Rhydon, Ambipom/Crobat/etc., then clearly this is all that Rhydon is able to do: Switch in on his resistances like the "frail" Pokemon, not his general "bulk" which you keep referring to. Rhydon is similar to all these "fast, frail" sweepers in that he hits like a train and switches in mainly on a revenge kill or on his resistances. The big difference is obviously that these other "fast, frail" Pokemon are actually fast.
Yes, and Rhydon is not better than that. While Rhydon can switch into T-wave, Honchkrow and Primeape can switch into Sleep Powder or Hypnosis, and Arcanine/Houndoom/Blaziken/etc. can switch into WoW. While Rhydon can switch into Regirock without much fear (or can he? Nearly half carried EQ in April), he can't switch into other common walls, mainly Slowbro and Milotic, which other offensive Pokemon can. In fact, Rhydon is more likely to face super-effective attacks from UU's premier "walls" than most other attackers; Registeel has Iron Head, Regirock and Steelix can run EQ, Slowbro/Milotic use Surf. Again, he has traits that make him different, but not necessarily better.
As I said earlier in the topic:
Okay, the Flying resist is notable because of Crobat alone.
I acknowledge the importance of a Crobat resistance in the current metagame. I'm not seeing it as a saving grace for Rhydon because of the original argument from which this sub-argument has branched off: Is Crobat BL? The fact of the matter is that, if Rhydon must use Crobat's prevalence as a crutch to support its viability, that implies that Rhydon would not be viable if Crobat were not overly popular; this, in turn, implies that Crobat is indeed overcentralizing the metagame, and that Rhydon is indeed a specialized Pokemon which is not generally fit for use outside of countering Crobat. Overall, I'd say that supports the "Yes, Crobat is BL" side of the argument.
Or the reason we are failing to get anywhere could be that you continue to be adamant in your belief that Rhydon can work well offensively, despite all the reasoning I have given that refutes that claim. So what? Argue the point at hand or don't, but either way don't waste time pointing fingers at the other side because they don't agree with you, as that accomplishes nothing.
Rhydon's the most viable offensive Rock-type I can think of (which says something about the viability of offensive Rock-types in UU overall, I think), besides maybe Relicanth, so this is quite relevant to that issue, I believe.
There are plenty of offensive Rock-Types... :D and becasue I like lists so much here you go...
Rampardos 165 Base Attack
Armaldo 125 Base Atk
Kabutops 115 Base Atk, Water typing, good Speed
Aggron 110 Base Atk and access to T-Wave
Golem 110 " "
Reliconth... Head Smash + Waterfall
Regirock 100 base attack, 200 base defense... Juggernaut
Omastar 115 Base SpA, SwiftSwimmer..
Rhydon 130 Base atk
9 out of 18 Rock-Types, unless you count the 3 OU's Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and Rhyperior so... 12 out of 21.
Rampardos is slow and has no defenses, Armaldo has a crappy movepool, low defenses and low speed, Aggron has 2 4x weakness to extremely common types (fighting and ground) and a crappy attack movepool. Golem is slow with several 4x weaknesses, Omastar is only useful offensively on RD teams because of low speed and 4x weakness to grass. Rhydon has already been argued above.
That leaves Kabutops, Relicanth, and Regirock as decent offensive rock types. Regirock often has tank builds because of his 200 base defense, which deserves more attention than his attack. Relicanth is extremely slow outside of RD and is rather hard to get in with most attackers carrying some sort of Grass/Electric attack which are both SE against him. Kabutops is good, but rather easily walled and damaged (due to low SpD) by bulky waters or special attackers.
It's not to say that none of them work...they'd all wall Crobat, for example. Just that outside of walling Crobat, they all have significant weaknesses. The last 3 in the 2nd paragraph are really the only ones that are usable (offensively) on UU teams, and even then require special support (ie Rain) to reach maximum efficiency.
This argument is perfectly legit until you use the word "overcentralizing". That word means nothing. If you are trying to prove that Crobat is broken in UU, use the three metrics we came up with already- offensive, defensive and support.
Your post here would have been spot-on if you said "Since Rhydon is not a viable pokemon in UU, except in the presence of Crobat, it is obvious that Crobat's presence SUPPORTS Rhydon, enabling it to be viable and score KOs that it normally never would have had an opportunity to get." Crobat is broken in this instance because it supports Rhydon, not because of some meaningless concept of "overcentralizing".
Same thing with Shaymin, it would not be as fearsome if Crobat didn't lure its counters out. Crobat is SUPPORTING Shaymin, not overcentralizing around Shaymin
On the contrary, over centralization plays a key part in any competitive game. There are many threats that, without specific counters for, will completely annihilate your team. For instance, look at the OU RMTs, a good half of the teams presented (at first) are 6-0'd by either DD Gyara, DD/mixmence, or Mixape. Every team MUST have a counter to these threats because they're so enormous. Crobat is the same way, however, unlike Gyara, mence, and ape, he has extremely few counters that synergize well with the rest of the (commonly used) tier, which means people are forced to build their teams around Crobat counters like Rhydon.
At the point where you're forced to resort to building teams specifically to deal with one threat, the metagame is overcentralized and that threat needs to be removed to allow for at least a small amount of innovation in teams.
For instance, Regirock has risen to becoming the most used physical wall because it's the only one that can really threaten Crobat (not just check it, plus it isn't as Taunt weak as Registeel or other walls). Using Slowbro, Blastoise, Registeel, etc have all become impractical because they can't threaten Crobat efficiently enough to force him out, and he can stay in there and stall all day if not completely take them out. Slowbro w/o Psychic can't touch him as he's taunted from using T-wave and Surf does far less than 50% (plus U-turn hits him for SE if Crobat switches out), Blastoise's Ice Beam can't scratch crobat, especially when it roosts, so it can outstall the no-recovery with Brave Bird. It can taunt Registeel and take Iron heads and Ice Punches all day. It's gotten to the point where Registeel users have been FORCED to use Zap Cannon ONLY because Crobat is so common.
tl;dr: Crobat has forced teams into more set patterns than they should be and has made a vast majority of the tier not viable singlehandedly. That is overcentralization, and that's bad not only for balance, but for the actual fun of the game as well.
Overcentralizing may not make a Pokemon broken in and of itself, but I think it provides legitimate evidence that said Pokemon is broken or atleast might be broken. If people are using Pokemon that would never see use normally just to counter a specific threat, building teams based around exploiting the presence of this Pokemon (someone posted a team in RMT called "Team DIAF [Die In A Fire] Crobat," I believe......), etc., then is that not clear evidence that this Pokemon's impact on the metagame is far above that of any other individual Pokemon?
Anyway, even if "overcentralizing means nothing" in the big picture, the fact remains that reliance on Crobat's popularity to support Rhydon's viability would detract from Rhydon's viability in a general sense, which was my main point in the passage you quoted.
Sigh... this looks like criticism without actual experience.
Rampardos has access to Rock Polish which obviously puts it's speed at a acceptable number and it also has one of the strongest attacks in the game... STABed Headsmash. Good luck finding a safe switchin to it. As an example a 252+ CB HeadSmash does 48.37% - 56.91% to 252/252+ Hariyama, 82.99% - 97.72% to 252/252+ Slowbro, 68.78% - 80.96% to 252/252+ Marvel Scale Milotic, and my favorite 141.64% - 166.86% to Standard 0/0 Shaymin.
Armaldo is in the same (phys) defensive tier as Milotic, Hariyama, Zapdos, and Nidoqueen. So he isn't a wall but he can take a beating. 75 Hp 100 Defense 80 Special Defense's keeps him around for a while. Last timed I checked the usuage stats Crobat and Shaymin where in the top 5. Stab Stone Edge and X-Scissor does sound like a dreadful idea doesn't it...
If your are switching Aggron into something... I'm 99.9% sure your opponent will be switching out. Also, looking through that Crobat discussion what does it matter what switches into Aggron as he can always switch out. Fighting and Ground common moves? Well I know a certian bat who laughs at those attacks. There are other viable ways around them as well but Crobat is your best choice ^^.
Golem has STAB QuakEdge, RockPolish, and Explosion don't count him down and out just yet...
Ugh... your ignorance is amazing.
If defensive Omastar works without RainDance then so can a Offensive one. Shaymin takes 80.35% - 94.72% from an 252+ LO Ice Beam and Specs does around 92.67% - 109.09% OHKO with SR. Hell, you can even pull off a set similar to my Cloyster set and use Surf/ Ice Beam/ (Toxic) Spikes/ Filler with a LO, allowing him to fullfill several roles. Here is another calc SpecsStar vs 168/108 Lead Crobat 107.65% - 126.63% and otherwise 93.20% - 109.63% with LO.
Regirock doesn't have to tank.. He can do... what you want him to do.
Electric is currently uncommon compared to Grass (Shaymin).
Wow, I'm sick of seeing this kind of mentalilty. This is stemming back to when discussing Honchkrow counters... Argh!
I have faced all those threats and none of them have ever been able to either sweep me or cause significant damage.
RP Rampardos can't come in on nearly anything. His defenses are crap so if they carry any SE attack he's dead. Almost every wall has some way of Paralyzing or Burning him which negates RP and neuters his attack respectively.
Armaldo is weak as hell to bulky waters. He doesn't have a move that can hit them (barring X-Scissor hitting Slowbro) for any damage whatsoever so Milotic, Blastoise, etc all hit back with a STAB, SE Surf for huge damage.
Aggron is just a joke, even if he can get in safely, he won't stay in, he won't be able to do all that much to anyone that counters him, and he dies if a fighting or ground type so much as breathes on him.
Golem is weak to Grass, Water, Ice, Fighting, Ground, and Steel. He can't switch in to a sweeper, because any one worth his salt has an attack of one of those types, not to mention he has no SpD to speak of and only 45 base Speed.
An Omastar attacker outside of rain is easily walled by any special wall or bulky water (it cannot learn a SE attack on them). It may check things, but it won't kill very much.
With the exception of Omastar, all of the above are countered and/or 1-2HKO'd by Claydol with Earth Power and defense/HP investment.
I'll admit, Curse Regirock can be quite an offensive player, albeit one I never have any trouble with due to the fact all of my teams run either Encore Clefable (my stall and balance teams), or a crapload of SE attacks for rock types (My Sunny Day team). There are no opportunities for either to get in safely.
If they do get in safely, the problems they can cause are limited due to the abundance of bulky waters and counters that already exist in the teir. The ONLY reason stuff like Golem/Rhydon/etc are rising in popularity is to counter Crobat, which is just more proof of the problems he's causing the tier as a whole.
I have basically said all I can, and its basically come down to people saying "well I dont think thats broken", and some people saying "yes thats definitely broken", so I wont argue all of these points, they are probably refuted already in one of my previous post tbh.
But can we please stop discussing the fact that Crobat's counters can do "stuff"? Of course Rampardos is dangerous with a Rock Polish, but who in the hell is going to let Rampardos use Rock Polish? Thats the dumbest thing someone could do. Crobat can basically 2HKO Rampardos with recoil factored in, its defenses are shit.
You guys are missing the only relevant point pertaining to the counters: They are all demolished by stall, or are stall Pokemon.
A defensive Shaymin can switch in to basically all of them, and so can Omastar. And you forget the fact that Crobat has either Taunt or Whirlwind for these Rock Polishers, they cannot set up. Crobat renders the metagame defenseless to Shaymin, or Crobat itself.
But can we please stop discussing the fact that Crobat's counters can do "stuff"? Of course Rampardos is dangerous with a Rock Polish, but who in the hell is going to let Rampardos use Rock Polish? Thats the dumbest thing someone could do. Crobat can basically 2HKO Rampardos with recoil factored in, its defenses are shit.
You guys are missing the only relevant point pertaining to the counters: They are all demolished by stall, or are stall Pokemon.
A defensive Shaymin can switch in to basically all of them, and so can Omastar. And you forget the fact that Crobat has either Taunt or Whirlwind for these Rock Polishers, they cannot set up. Crobat renders the metagame defenseless to Shaymin, or Crobat itself.
Wait, so Crobat is now broken because it supports its opponent's Rhydon?
|
| Shaymin | HP EV | None | 59.7 |
| Shaymin | HP EV | Max | 20.5 |
| Shaymin | HP EV | Very Low (<50) | 12.8 |
| Shaymin | HP EV | Other (2) | < 5.4 |
| Shaymin | Defense EV | None | 94.1 |
| Shaymin | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 3.5 |
| Shaymin | SpDefense EV | None | 91.9 |
| Shaymin | SpDefense EV | Other (3) | < 4.2 |
Practically nobody invests defense in their Shaymin. I've shown you two viable Pokemon (well, at least one, since you keep using Omastar in your arguments) who can counter Crobat and threaten a 2HKO on Shaymin. They force Shaymin to recover, and thus, leave Shaymin vulnerable to whatever switches in next. How is that not countering Crobat and ruining its little "switch to Shaymin" game? And furthermore, how is a Rain Dance team not a type of viable offensive team that can stop Crobat?
And why would you Taunt something that can KO you with Stone Edge?
Thought the same thing when I read that, not quite sure if his passage came out the way he wanted it to......
I don't think the argument should be focused on Crobat + Shaymin alone. Crobat has a move called U-Turn, not U-Turn To Shaymin And Only Shaymin. If my Crobat is U-Turning out of an Omastar, I can easily just bring in my Life Orb Milotic instead of Shaymin, which will absorb Ice Beam and promptly threaten to kill Omastar with Hydro Pump (and can also kill or maim most of these NU Rock-types people are suddenly worshipping, just like Shaymin). Shaymin happens to be a common recipient of Crobat U-Turns, both because it happens to beat many of Crobat's checks and because it's pretty clearly the other best UU Pokemon, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only one.
Max Atk Adamant Kabutops's Stone Edge on this Milotic (I don't know if this is standard or not): 63.69% - 75.07% (Kabutops also outspeeds)
We can go on replacing Crobat's recipient with something else, but I'm sure it will be damaged one way or another by at least one of Crobat's counters. Naturally; what else would one expect from those great attacking stats + excellent dual STAB attacking options? Shaymin can beat them one on one, but it's not like they lack something to at least deter it from switching in.
I guess, but we are now venturing into a group of Pokemon who aren't as threatening as Shaymin or Milotic. Also, Rock / Water and Rock / Ground provide astounding neutral coverage, and while you know my Pokemon, you won't know my move.
The "threat level" of whatever Pokemon you're switching in is irrelevant, the point is simply that it can be any Pokemon you want, a counter, a check, a sacrifice, whatever. It doesn't have to be Shaymin, so clearly you cannot simply defeat Crobat by stating that this Pokemon resists Flying and can score a super-effective hit on Shaymin. Nor is Crobat forced to patiently wait until its "counter" switches in before using U-Turn; U-Turn on the switch does indeed result in Shaymin switching for free on Omastar or Kabutops and the turn ending with Crobat's team still holding the upper hand.
"oh no but if he uses U-Turn he doesn't Roost and he dies"
I've seen this objection more than once by now, and it's a terrible argument. Crobat is only 2x weak to Stealth Rock, not 4x (and this is assuming that SR is even up), it can afford to U-Turn in and out once or twice without keeling over and dying, especially since it's so easy to find something against which it can Roost back up later. If it's low on health already and wants to Roost while you bring in Omastar, then U-Turn to something, it can do that, too. That's the thing; it can do whichever one is best for the situation. The fact that Crobat has the option of U-Turning your Omastar switch-in at all is a clear-cut advantage for him.
"oh no but if he uses U-Turn he doesn't Roost and he dies"
I've seen this objection more than once by now, and it's a terrible argument. Crobat is only 2x weak to Stealth Rock, not 4x (and this is assuming that SR is even up), it can afford to U-Turn in and out once or twice without keeling over and dying, especially since it's so easy to find something against which it can Roost back up later. If it's low on health already and wants to Roost while you bring in Omastar, then U-Turn to something, it can do that, too. That's the thing; it can do whichever one is best for the situation. The fact that Crobat has the option of U-Turning your Omastar switch-in at all is a clear-cut advantage for him.
Depends on what attack you're switching into and if Stealth Rock is up. The standard Crobat shrugs off Shaymin's Seed Flare, but takes 29.67% - 35.01% from Air Slash, meaning it has to Roost or deal with coming back in with less than a quarter of its health. The situation becomes worse if the Shaymin user throws out a random Psychic, which I have done before and have seen others do, mostly in the early stages of the game. Clefable and Chansey are two further examples of this, who strip off ~29% of Crobat's health with Seismic Toss.
Or Shaymin uses Seed Flare, or Chansey uses Toxic, or Roserade is using Spikes, or Crobat comes in after something has died, blah blah. The conditions are extremely variable and thus entirely beside the point, which is:
If it's low on health already and wants to Roost while you bring in Omastar, then U-Turn to something, it can do that, too. That's the thing; it can do whichever one is best for the situation. The fact that Crobat has the option of U-Turning your Omastar switch-in at all is a clear-cut advantage for him.
So you use your amazing prediction skills to Air Slash with Shaymin while Crobat switches in. Crobat uses Roost, U-Turns out. So what? What's your point? The fact remains that Crobat has the option to use U-Turn immediately should it wish to do so, which is what matters here. Unless you're proposing that such a maneuver is literally never worth pulling off, in which case I think there's a certain #1 OU Pokemon which would like to disagree with you.
If it's low on health already and wants to Roost while you bring in Omastar, then U-Turn to something, it can do that, too. That's the thing; it can do whichever one is best for the situation. The fact that Crobat has the option of U-Turning your Omastar switch-in at all is a clear-cut advantage for him.
So you use your amazing prediction skills to Air Slash with Shaymin while Crobat switches in. Crobat uses Roost, U-Turns out. So what? What's your point? The fact remains that Crobat has the option to use U-Turn immediately should it wish to do so, which is what matters here. Unless you're proposing that such a maneuver is literally never worth pulling off, in which case I think there's a certain #1 OU Pokemon which would like to disagree with you.
In either scenario it is possible for the person facing Crobat to end up with the advantage. If Crobat Roosts and then U-Turns, Kabutops gets a free, powerful hit on the incoming Pokemon, including Shaymin and Milotic. If Crobat U-Turns, it loses much of its ability to switch into certain threats and risks not being able to come back in safely.
As you said, the conditions are extremely variable, which means Crobat cannot consistentlyset up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep, which is the Support Characteristic.
This is where I disagree.
Crobat can consistently set up a situation for other Pokemon, namely Shaymin, and Stall in general to sweep.
Crobat:
a) forces you to use Shaymin bait (and other Pokemon who cannot do anything versus stall)
b) Eliminates / Checks everything that threatens stall (aka, powerful / frail sweepers)
c) is a sweeping threat on its own
d) prevents set up Pokemon
e) can Phaze effectively
f) can keep doing this throughout the game with its unmatched survivability
Thats why it fits the support characteristic, in a nutshell.
Crobat can consistently set up a situation for other Pokemon, namely Shaymin, and Stall in general to sweep.
Crobat:
a) forces you to use Shaymin bait (and other Pokemon who cannot do anything versus stall)
b) Eliminates / Checks everything that threatens stall (aka, powerful / frail sweepers)
c) is a sweeping threat on its own
d) prevents set up Pokemon
e) can Phaze effectively
f) can keep doing this throughout the game with its unmatched survivability
Thats why it fits the support characteristic, in a nutshell.
I really don't see the big deal about the fast Taunt. Granted, it's very useful. However, it only does anything if they switch into him and try to set up, or there's a double switch. He has to switch in before he can Taunt, meaning you can have a turn of set-up before he comes in. He doesn't completely stop set-up unless you try to do it when he's already in, which is silly to try anyway.
The fast U-turn isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Crobat usually spends his early game using U-turn in order to draw out his counters and eliminate them early. If you don't switch then he is forced to switch into your attacks, which wears down the counters on his team. If he switches into your Blaziken early game, try attacking rather than switching, since odds are he won't stay in since he assumes you'll switch. To be honest I'm more afraid of a slow U-turn than a fast one, since that means whatever switches in has to eat the hit.
I'm honestly on the fence about Crobat. It can sweep well, and checks an uncomfortable amount of the metagame. However, despite being sturdy it doesn't get to freely switch around and U-turn like people seem to imply. It is worn down by attacks and has SR weakness. Granted, I have not played too much thanks to work and school (among other things), but other things tend to give me far more trouble than Crobat. He's good at what he does, and very annoying, but doesn't actually seem broken at anything he does. I wouldn't shed any tears if he disappeared, though.
The fast U-turn isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Crobat usually spends his early game using U-turn in order to draw out his counters and eliminate them early. If you don't switch then he is forced to switch into your attacks, which wears down the counters on his team. If he switches into your Blaziken early game, try attacking rather than switching, since odds are he won't stay in since he assumes you'll switch. To be honest I'm more afraid of a slow U-turn than a fast one, since that means whatever switches in has to eat the hit.
I'm honestly on the fence about Crobat. It can sweep well, and checks an uncomfortable amount of the metagame. However, despite being sturdy it doesn't get to freely switch around and U-turn like people seem to imply. It is worn down by attacks and has SR weakness. Granted, I have not played too much thanks to work and school (among other things), but other things tend to give me far more trouble than Crobat. He's good at what he does, and very annoying, but doesn't actually seem broken at anything he does. I wouldn't shed any tears if he disappeared, though.
It does play a key part, but not in determining if something is broken. We have three characteristics specifically designed to tell if something is broken or not.
For example, people keep bringing up how Crobat has "checks", but they fail to acknowledge that Crobat just uses those checks to set up other members of its team. You want to keep bringing that Regirock in to counter Crobat? Ok, but you're going to pay for it. If you are using Crobat, you WANT your opponent to bring in something like Registeel. That to me qualifies under the support characteristics. And to pre-empt the argument I'm going to get from Eo Ut "Im going to whore Crobat on every team and use a specialized set to counter it, but i dont think its broken" Mortus, U-turn alone doesnt make it broken, its the fact that Crobat lures out pokemon that are easy for its teammates to set up on. Only one type of Pokemon can reliably switch into Crobat: slow Rock or Steel types with little type coverage, aka the easiest pokemon to set up on. The fact that Crobat outspeeds and OHKOs nearly every major offensive threat in the metagame (Shaymin, Missy, Espeon, Blaziken, Hitmontop, Roserade, etc etc) is just an added bonus.
Also, what do people think about Moltres? The SubRoost set is pretty ridiculous to break by conventional methods, and the Life Orb set has 1 safe switchin...Chansey...who is 3hkod without SR. I know it's Stealth Rock weak, but doing 50% to Moltres is pretty difficult considering it has 90 base speed and the best offensive typing in UU. Even Slowbro takes 40% from Fire Blast ffs. Fire + Flying + Grass is just ridiculous coverage.
So here you are saying that you consider the residual damage Crobat takes from U-Turning out to be more important than the fact that Shaymin or Roserade or whatever else is switching into your precious Water/Rock type for free (especially since SR must always be up when you are arguing against a Pokemon which is weak to it, but that's beside the point)? If you think killing off Crobat is that important then clearly it is more threatening than you give it credit for.
Perhaps not with perfect consistency, but if your argument is merely that it does not happen "consistently," then clearly it happens (whether consistently or not) and clearly Crobat is capable of "setting up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep." While the lack of "consistency" in performing this task may be enough for one to argue that Crobat is not BL if it were the only thing Crobat is capable of, unfortunately, such is not the case. Crobat is conveniently blessed with other significant and positive traits which fit into the other two characteristics.
I agree that both the offensive and defensive sets can be ridiculous, and I think if it wasn't SR weak Moltres would be a pretty clear BL. The question is simply whether or not losing 50% health to SR cancels out the fact that almost everything else about it is amazing. As far as checks and counters go, when I tried out Moltres, Milotic was my #1 enemy: With defensive investment it can switch into the offensive set's Fire Blast and Recover back up even if Moltres spams HP Grass, and a Rest + Talk Milotic can wall the SubToxic sets. And as you said, there's always Chansey.
But past those two, the list of checks/counters (especially full "counters") becomes quite small. Rotom is the only real "check" that comes to mind, though other Pokemon can work if given the correct move (usually this means giving them HP Rock, as in Shaymin, Yanmega, etc.). And I can't think of any other counters, as in Pokemon that can safely switch in, at all.
After Crobat, though, I really think we should be talking about Shaymin before worrying about anything else.
- Status