Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[Immortal]

what are you on about? excadrill isn't nearly as threatening outside of the sand, being a rather slow Pokemon in the meta

I am liking the special attacker nerfs, my Blissey and Chansey are smiling. Try to KO us now Charizard. :)

Excadrill is banned and this is an Ou thread. considering it has garbage defense anyway, all the typing chart really does is give him a new target for his STAB. You can use t tar and hippo in tandem and they dont have the hazard weakness sun does, he will likely still be banned or quickly re banned.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

If this applies to other moves like outrage and close combat, that would really impact the metagame, now it will be a lot harder for Pokemon like Terrakion to 2HKO certain Pokemon like Skarmory or Hippowdon, or just bulky Pokemon in general.

Really interesting stuff, I am actually wondering if the high offenses on the mega-evolutions were made to balance out these changes so that they are still potent threats.

Excadrill is banned and this is an Ou thread. considering it has garbage defense anyway, all the typing chart really does is give him a new target for his STAB.

I don't think you understand, you stated that sand abusers are uber anyway in a way that implied that, or in other words, without sand they would still be uber. The current standing of Excadrill is irrelevant to this point.

If you misspoke, then whatever I suppose. If that is the case though what you said is prettty much hollow as the current standing of Excadrill as Uber doesn't imply it will be Uber in the next generation... so...

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 187-222 (54.83 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (130 atk+life orb)
252+ Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 160-189 (46.92 - 55.42%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO (150 atk)
Yeah...no. Unless you want to go mixed i guess, but at that point youre better off with something else.

You did a damage calc against Shaymin. Shaymin! Something that's neutral to Sucker Punch and fairly bulky even without investment. Sure, it's weaker than LO Absol by a bit, but also consider that it has 115 base Speed, 115 base Special Attack, and Magic Bounce. You're looking too much on the physical end, while that increased Special Attack allows it to use some moves in its special movepool. Check this out (This factors in the Fire Blast nerf):

0 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 208-247 (63.6 - 75.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Absol Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 228-270 (69.72 - 82.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If you ask me, having Special attacks slightly stronger than LO Absol's, while also having far more Speed and Magic Bounce, is pretty big. That Speed lets it outrun several key threats like Terrakion, Lati@s, Jirachi, etc. Yeah, you try using any non-Scarf Terrakion to beat Absol when Mega Absol outspeeds and obliterates it with Superpower. Oh, you tried to go for Substitute or something with Latias to dodge Sucker Punch? Nope. Mega Absol outspeeds you and can OHKO you with Night Slash with just a bit of prior damage. Not to mention that Magic Bounce makes Sucker Punch more effective anyway; Mega Absol can also more effectively use moves like Fire Blast and Ice Beam to cover the likes of Skarmory, Ferrothorn (fuck Superpower Atk/Def drops,) Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T. It's definitely a better Magic Bounce user than Espeon, that's for sure...

So, while Mega Absol won't be the best Mega Evo, it will have a niche.

 

[DDRMaster]

Something to note about Mega Absol, it has only 3 less Speed than Choice Scarf Jolly Tyranitar, meaning it can easily Pursuit trap things like Espeon and Latias. The only thing it misses out on is Starmie, which it ties with. And keep in mind that Mega Absol can switch attacks, so it's not necessarily set up fodder for something like Mega Lucario.

Sure it doesn't bring things Sandstorm and greater bulk, but it does have Magic Bounce to make up for it.

 

[Immortal]

I don't think you understand, you stated that sand abusers are uber anyway in a way that implied that, or in other words, without sand they would still be uber. The current standing of Excadrill is irrelevant to this point.

If you misspoke, then whatever I suppose. If that is the case though what you said is prettty much hollow as the current standing of Excadrill as Uber doesn't imply it will be Uber in the next generation... so...

Although Excadrill may be allowed to test the waters in OU but, as far as i am aware, Excadrill being brought down is speculation at this point, so i did not include it in my analysis. I am just looking at things with the rules as they are now in ou. Excadrill and Landorus I are banned and swift swim + drizzle is banned but venusaur is not and i will explain why i think things will stay this way for gen 6. Excadrill, Kingdra and venusaur all get speed boosts in their respective weather while Kingdra (and other swift swimmers) get their water stab increased and excadrill takes no damage from sandstorm and doubles as a rapid spinner. Venusaur one the other hand has one of its weaknesses increased by sun, making it much easier to KO with the pretty popular HP fire. Adding to this, sand and rain are much easier to keep up due to better typing and lack of entry hazard weakness on their inducers. Since Rain boosts both the speed and water type moves of swift swimmers, Drizzle + swiftswim will likely still be banned. Sand boosts either the speed or rock,ground/steel moves through sand force but doesnt boost speed and offense on the same pokemon so in that aspect is not as good as rain. What sand does have going for it over rain is that it has two solid weather inducers, both of whom can set up SR. T tar has monster stats, stab pursuit and gets a special defense boost from sand storm while hippo is bulky and has access to slack off to increase its durability. Although Excadrill would not be uber worth without sand, i dont see this as much of a problem because sand isnt looking very hard to keep up, especially since it has an inducer worth using by itself. For these reasons i see both Excadrill and landorus as well as swiftswim+ drizzle to stay on the banlists and if they do get to come back down for gen 6, i doubt they will stay for too long

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't see why Excadrill and Drizzleswim wouldn't be brought down to test at the beginning of next gen. The former, while powerful, will not be able to use its offensive Swords Dance set nearly as effectively as before because it won't have as much time to get off a sweep, due to the Sand Stream nerf. The latter not only has to deal with the Drizzle nerf, but it also lost 10 Base Power with Hydro Pump, which essentially forces those teams to use Surf as the primary offensive STAB. There is also an unconfirmed rumor that Thunder will no longer have perfect accuracy in Rain. Those teams may still be very powerful, but keeping Drizzleswim banned just because of that assumption would be way too preemptive.

As for Landorus, it was hardly ban-worthy to begin with in this gen. It'd be shameful if we keep it banned at the start of next gen, which has a plethora of new defensive tactics and Pokemon to help keep Landy in check. I am also looking forward to the return of the other genies; Thundurus-I was nerfed by the reduction in Hidden Power base power and Tornadus-T was similarly hindered by the reduction in Hurricane base power from 120 to 110.

 

[Immortal]

I don't see why Excadrill and Drizzleswim wouldn't be brought down to test at the beginning of next gen. The former, while powerful, will not be able to use its offensive Swords Dance set nearly as effectively as before because it won't have as much time to get off a sweep as before, due to the Sand Stream nerf. The latter not only has to deal with the Drizzle nerf, but it also lost 10 Base Power with Hydro Pump, which essentially forces those teams to use Surf as the primary offensive STAB. There is also an unconfirmed rumor that Thunder will no longer have perfect accuracy in Rain. Those teams may still be very powerful, but keeping Drizzleswim banned just because of that assumption would be way too preemptive.

As for Landorus, it was hardly ban-worthy to begin with in this gen. It'd be shameful if we keep it banned at the start of next gen, which has a plethora of new defensive tactics and Pokemon to help keep Landy in check. I am also looking forward to the return of the other genies; Thundurus-I was nerfed by the reduction in Hidden Power base power and Tornadus-T was similarly hindered by the reduction in Hurricane base power from 120 to 110.

You do make some pretty good points and while i think these changes will make an impact, i really dont think it is enough. losing 10 base power on a few moves just isnt enough in my opinion. Remember tons of other moves got nerfed as well. 10 base power on HP probably isnt enough to bring Thunderus I back. Although the nerf to hurricane hurts a bit, Tornadus T, was mostly broken because of regenerator anyway. Landorus I was banned because of one set, Rock polish, that didnt catch on for a while. As for drizzle swiftswim, while it is unbelievably broken with permanent weather i think it will still be broken despite the nerf. I wouldnt be surprised if these guys along with many others get to test the waters but i still see them going back up to ubers.

 

[DDRMaster]

You know, the weather nerf shouldn't change doubles much, which is the premier sanctioned battle system of Pokemon, due to the VGC. 4v4 doubles doesn't last all that long and 5 turns is plenty of time to win. Maybe they'll have more singles tournaments then?

Edit: And the only GBU singles is 3v3, which also doesn't last very long.

 

[FrostFire]

Wow. Just... this is massive. That 60 Base Hidden Power is so massive - there are a lot of pokes in OU that really rely on hidden power; 70 Base already wasn't very good, but now (for example) stuff like Latios and Celebi probably won't even bother with HP Fire anymore. Also, the 120 base moves being reduced to 110 is really interesting. I mean if you take Flamethrower> Fire blast, that's only a 15 base point difference in power, for a 15% drop in accuracy. Assuming Hydro Pump goes the same way, then you're sacrificing 20% accuracy for that same 15 base power over Surf. It'll be interesting to see which class of moves end up more used.

I'm actually really liking where this is going though. We really did need to halt the power creep a bit. And honestly, the MEvo's don't worry me too much - you can only have one per team; also, for certain MEvo's, like Charizard, Mawile, Ampharos, Absol (etc.) there'll be no hiding which poke is holding the mega stone.

Also, Shadow Tag Mega Gengar is just stupid. I mean really, OP much? It's actually a shame too, because Gengar's Mega stone will just end up getting banned, so it's like Gengar would've been "better off" with a worse ability (Levitate) so it could've kept the ability to go Mega, if you see my meaning. Ah well.

 

[haunter]

Landorus I was banned because of one set, Rock polish, that didnt catch on for a while.

Incorrect. Ladorus-I was deemed broken mostly because of U-turn on the Sheer Force set. With U-turn it could get past some of the few Pokemon that could reliably switch into its Earth Power, namely Celebi and the Lati twins.

Anyway, while this is not the place to discuss about an initial banlist for X/Y, I think I can safely say that Pokemon like Landorus-I, Excadrill and Tornadus-T will start OU in Gen VI.

 

[Gary]

Bringing all them big threats back~
Gen VI just might have the largest OU pool, but that's my speculation.
Considering how everyone is assuming Gen VI is taking a more "defensive , bulky" nature compared to Gen V's "Hyper Offense" nature, I feel that a good handful of Ubers will drop to OU.
Obviously not things like Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Groudon, Arceus and so forth but things such as Landorus-I, Torn-T, Excadrill, Thundy-T and the other banned Pokemon.

Also this might sound a little rash but you guys feel there's a chance for Blaziken to see OU?
Considering we have MegaBlaziken now who seriously outclasses regular Blaziken in almost every single aspect (besides the fact that it can't hold an item besides its stone), and considering all of these new defensive threats strolling into Gen VI, what do you guys think?

Losing a boon in the form of reliable sun support hurts Blaziken's ability to break through Jellicent and other bulky Water-types in the sun, and with the huge prevalence of naturally fast sweepers such as Mega Lucario and even Mega Charizard X with its high power, bulk, and resistances, Blaziken might see less light then normal. Still, Blaziken will be a very potent Pokemon if it does end up staying OU this generation, but its Mega will most likely see a ban. Baton Pass + Speed Boost is so good, and combined with the potential huge ass buff Mega Blaziken will get, it might be too much for OU to handle. I can see regular Blaziken working in OU next gen though, as the metagame is becoming more defensive which forces Blaziken to setup to +2 if it wants to break through things.

 

[Codraroll]

Bringing all them big threats back~
Gen VI just might have the largest OU pool, but that's my speculation.

OU by the standards of this generation, that is. Since the OU tier is defined based on usage, having more viable 'mons doesn't mean much if some of them are simply better than the others and thus used more. Given that the definitions don't change, OU can only really grow if players use a greater variety of Pokémon, so a greater amount of them passes the inclusion criteria. The rest will be sent to UU, where they will either raise the bar there, pushing the power level in the tier further up, or they might be banned to BL. So in that regard, one might say that Gen. VI has a greater potential for a large BL tier.

 

[Hollandoh]

I think it would be interesting to unban souldew- with the advent of mega evos and tanky power creep, although strong, the latis may not be as broken as you first think. With soul dew attatched, latis cant run scarf and so are locked at 110, outsped and killed by scarftar, mega lucas crunch, Mega absol, mega aero, sand stream exca ( running x scissor if unbanned), mega mawile, weavile, scarfed mamo, aegilslash (with shadow sneak) the list goes on.

Any thoughts?

 

[JSND]

Soul Dew increased Sp.D so, I dunno

 

[G-Von]

Guys, Haunter said it once already (even though GCSChris had allowed me before his warning) that we aren't supposed be talking about the tiering process of bans/unbans. If anything, just mention the said currently Uber pokemon in the sense that it will be in OU next without actually saying "well I think so and so should be unbanned because...".

I'm very surprised by all these changes being made to the games that directly influence the singles metagame based on the fact that the VGC's are a 4 on 4 doubles tourny. Its like GF went onto smogon and decided to listen to what the people said. Too bad our government doesn't act the same way but anyway on the topic of these base powers of moves being decreased, I feel kinda mixed on it. Hidden Power dropping from 70 to 60 is pretty major since a lot of the pokemon who use Hidden Power were barely able to break through the main pokemon they were trying to hit. On the other hand, these 120 base power moves dropping to 110 base power isn't all that big to me. The moves are still pretty powerful especially since they are more than likely used as a mons STAB move with the exception of Focus Blast.

Weather is going to be, in my very honest and personal opinion, gimmicky due to the nerf it got. It is basically like using rain dance without having to waste a moveslot on it. If you play a weatherless team, you still have to make sure that your weather starter will survive till the end of the match. I know people may pull the skill card on that but to me, it will be too much work knowing you have to keep, not only your win clause/sweeper alive till the end, but the weather inducer too.

 

[JSND]

What I get from that is discussing an Uber for "theorymon OU" is okay so....

Giratina is interesting. The strongest STAB Shadow Sneak(IIRC) is pretty cool since Gengar seems to be shaping to become one of the biggest bullshit in the upcoming gen 6 meta. It have Aura Sphere and Dragon move of choice to round it up, so its only problem is the ussual Fairy stuff. In comparison to the somewhat simmilar Aegislash(who have a nice movepool that consist of King's Shield, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak, and Iron Head for Fairy) it have a constant offense/bulk spread of 100/120(120/100 with forme). Togekiss x Giratina anyone?

 

[alexwolf]

With 80 / 95 special bulk and the boost from sandstorm, Mega Aerodactyl is going to be an awesome switch-in to special attackers, revenge killer, and all out atacker all in one. Here are some calcs against 216 HP Mega Aerodactyl in sand (i will be using a 216 HP / 196 Atk / 96 Spe with Timid spread, fast enough to outspeed Jolly Jolteon):

• 252 SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 112-132 (31.54 - 37.18%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 112-133 (31.54 - 37.46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 135-160 (38.02 - 45.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 180-214 (50.7 - 60.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 136-162 (38.3 - 45.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 234-278 (65.91 - 78.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 185-218 (52.11 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 175-207 (49.29 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Surf vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in sand: 169-200 (47.6 - 56.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As seen above, it can go toe to toe with some of the strongest MEvos released, such as Mega Gengar and Mega Gardevoir, and can strike back with either Stone Edge or Tough Claws Crunch (assuming Tough Claws gives an 20% boost to contact moves):

• 196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 228-269 (75.49 - 89.07%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Sure OHKO after SR + 1 round of LO + sandstorm damage.
  
• 196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 250-295 (95.41 - 112.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock or sandstorm
  
• 196 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 195-231 (74.42 - 88.16%). Almost sure OHKO after SR and two rounds of sandstorm damage (switch in and Roost once, then attack).
  
• 196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 295-348 (106.49 - 125.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  
• 196 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 229-271 (82.67 - 97.83%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sure OHKO after SR and sand.

Also, Mega Aerodactly has good synergy with Hippowdon, which can take almost any physical attack aimed at the pterodactyl, while Aerodactyl helps Hippowdon against special Fire, Grass Pokemon, and in general against strong special attackers. And both have reliable recovery and are not easy to setup on at all. Really good stuff!

 

[Pikachuun]

http://i.imgur.com/yN8ow26l.jpg

So this is pretty huge. Hidden Power has now been officially made 60 BP. That's about a 15% drop in power from what we're used to.

No, glob!
No!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

But I do like MegaAerodactyl. Look at that power!

 

[SpartanMalice]

Why timid on Aero ? You didn't mention special attacks, and timid nerfs your attack stat. I guess you meant Jolly ? But those tanks are suprising considering it's Aero. The fact that it only needs 96 spe to outspeed the mon it previously tied with is amazing.

 

[WelshDragonite]

As a Returning Member to smogon (I quit and I never played Smogon Wifi because I wasn't happy with 5th gen metagame) A new super training Feature in X and Y will make me go back because EV training will be easier. But...

Lets get onto the topic... Speaking of mega evolutions I am happy to use Charizard X in the OU metagame but as long as I Mega evolve it early good to go but Despite its 2x weak to Rocks and its good typing I highly Doubt it would Fit the OU metagame but Tough Claws and more Attack makes up for it but lets see how it fares well in OU as it is my favorate child hood pokemon ever when I first played since 1st gen. Besides looking real badass but I will go though the set I be using

Charizard X
Ability: Tough Claws
Item: That mega stone of course
EVs: 252 Attack 4 Defense 252 Speed
Move Set: Flareblitz/Dragon Claw/Dragon Dance/Iron Tail to kill fairies or Roost for recovery

 

[WelshDragonite]

Another thing about Mega's A little bird told me that Mega TTar and Aggron has been confirmed but I believe TTar is exclusive to X and Aggron is Exclusive to Y for some reason

 

[alexwolf]

Why timid on Aero ? You didn't mention special attacks, and timid nerfs your attack stat. I guess you meant Jolly ? But those tanks are suprising considering it's Aero. The fact that it only needs 96 spe to outspeed the mon it previously tied with is amazing.

Yeah i meant Jolly...

 

[Broliftic]

Hey, so remember Avalugg? That thing is RIDICULOUS. Here are the top physical hits it'll take in OU:

Spread is 252 HP / 252+ Def.

Conkeldurr (OU Substitute + Focus Punch) Focus Punch79.2 - 93.56% Stone Edge29.7 - 35.14%
Toxicroak (OU SubPunch [Life Orb]) Focus Punch70.04 - 83.66% Sucker Punch12.62 - 15.09%
Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Close Combat68.31 - 80.69% Stone Edge56.93 - 67.32%
Metagross (OU Choice Band) Meteor Mash64.35 - 76.23% Hammer Arm43.06 - 50.99%
Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Stone Edge63.86 - 75.74% Superpower50.99 - 60.39%
Breloom (OU SubPunch) Focus Punch62.87 - 74.25% Seed Bomb16.58 - 20.04%

Note that he has a chance of surviving most of them even after stealth rock (which supposedly got a nerf anyway).
Maybe he'll actually work as a viable spinner in OU?

Source: Honkalculator on PS All vs. One
e: formatting

 

[Kejmur]

Hey, so remember Avalugg? That thing is RIDICULOUS. Here are the top physical hits it'll take in OU:

Spread is 252 HP / 252+ Def.

Conkeldurr (OU Substitute + Focus Punch) Focus Punch79.2 - 93.56% Stone Edge29.7 - 35.14%
Toxicroak (OU SubPunch [Life Orb]) Focus Punch70.04 - 83.66% Sucker Punch12.62 - 15.09%
Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Close Combat68.31 - 80.69% Stone Edge56.93 - 67.32%
Metagross (OU Choice Band) Meteor Mash64.35 - 76.23% Hammer Arm43.06 - 50.99%
Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Stone Edge63.86 - 75.74% Superpower50.99 - 60.39%
Breloom (OU SubPunch) Focus Punch62.87 - 74.25% Seed Bomb16.58 - 20.04%

Note that he has a chance of surviving most of them even after stealth rock (which supposedly got a nerf anyway).
Maybe he'll actually work as a viable spinner in OU?

Source: Honkalculator on PS All vs. One
e: formatting

Yep, I'll quote myself from earlier with different calcs.

Choice Band Adamant Stone Edge from Tyranitar vs Max HP/Max Def Positive Nature (100 HP/180 HP base Stat)

63.86% - 75.74%

Honestly I'm kind of impressed that it survive this hit even with SR up (2.56% for OHKO only with it).

Naive Life Orb +1 Outrage from Salamence

45.54% - 53.71%

Well if you ask me surprisingly small damage. He can actually switch on Dragon Dance, easily tank it and KO back.

Adamant Life Orb Lucario Close Combat

58.42% - 68.81%

Well... 360 power move taking like a boss. Unfortunately after Swords Dance it slaughters, but as a last resort it actually is fine.

Adamant Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat

65.35% - 77.23%

With Jolly comparable calculation to Adamant Lucario.

Adamant Choice Band Haxorus Outrage

34.95% - 41.20%

Massive 0,72% chance for 2HKO with SR up and Leftovers, lol.

Yache Berry +2 Jolly Garchomp Outrage

42.59% - 50.23%

As long as you keep SR away, I think this is first Non-Uber Pokemon which takes 2 Outrages in a row from Swords Dance YacheChomp being Non-Steel Type. Congratulations.

Random Yache Berry Garchomp Fire Blast

72.28% - 85.15%

Taking into account his bad Special Defense, I need to say this is looking much better then I expected. If you keep SR out of field - 100% Garchomp counter.

Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake

23.15% - 27.31%

I would say it tickles him. Literally.

Adamant Life Orb Superpower Mamoswine

36.57% - 43.52%

Looks good. Really damn good Mamoswine check here, without SR 100% counter (CB SuperPower may hurt).

+2 Adamant Bullet Punch from Scizor

47.22% - 55.56%

Taking into account how weak it is to Steel, it's pretty hilarious. Of course I would never use him to check/counter Scizor, as CB Bullet Punch 2OHKO with SR up (without it there's no chance, lol) but as last resort it's ok.

Dragon Claw Life Orb Adamant Standard Substitute Kyurem-Black

24.54% - 29.17%

Yep, it tickles. Just avoid Hidden Power Fire.

Choice Band Dragon Claw Adamant Kyurem-B

28.01% - 33.33%

So far Avalugg looks as more than decent Kyurem-B check.

Choice Band Outrage Adamant Kyurem-B

41.90% - 49.54%

Unfortunately with SR on you die in 2 hits, but it's really damn impressive that you survive 2 hits coming from this guy while not beeing Steel type without SR up.

In other words this bulk helps. Alot. Assuming he will get it (100/180 sounds really damn high), but this SR weakness is still damn problem. If he gets recovery, it won't hurt as much and as you see he takes many physical hits even with it. As long as it gets Avalanche and Ice Shard AND recovery, he may actually be more then decent. Who knows... ALL depends on his movepool now.

 

[WelshDragonite]

Note that he has a chance of surviving most of them even after stealth rock (which supposedly got a nerf anyway).

Can you source how rocks got nerfed?