Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[G-Von]

I honestly strongly dislike the fact that this is the nerf that weather received. I was hoping, like many other people were, that Hail was going to give Ice types a defense boost, but no. I feel like this kills the point of even running weather since winning the weather war was so important so that you would have your own weather for the rest of the match. Now the only pokemon that will really benefit from weather will be the inducers themselves bar Hippowdon. If anything this gave Drizzle and Drought even more space ahead of Sand and Hail since the former have so many more positive things going for it, while the latter choices can only be used by a small select group of viable pokemon to abuse.

Of course GameFreak and their trollish ways would decide to release a Gengar...mega-evod...with Shadow Tag...BEFORE Shadow Tag Chandelure. Ugh, bunch of genwunners over there I bet. Yea, Gengar is going to be pretty broken. I mean, the fact that it had STAB that was super-effective against Fairies AND resisted fairy attacks was bad enough, but this is over the top.

 

[X5Dragon]

TTar + Hippo teams are gonna give sand an edge over other weathers...who now have to play a game of seek and hide until they can trap or kill the opponents weather inducer. Also, I can see Politoed + Damp Rock Kingdra a thing if the Aldaron proposal ever gets dropped, and similar tactics with other weathers.

TLDR; weather teams now have to work just like the rest of us. Also let's make Dragar teams a thing before it gets banned within a month of competitve gameplay :P

Edit: Ways to get around the weather nerf:

Ninetales + Heat Rock Heatran + CharY
Politoed + Damp Rock Kingdra/Ludicolo
TTar + Hippo/Sand Stream Smooth Rock Excadrill

 

[Gary]

Most forms of weather will still be viable, but it will just require a lot more effort and skill to use accordingly, instead of just slapping a Specs Politoed on your team and spamming Hydro Pump until the cows come home on weatherless teams. Hail and Sun have taken the biggest blow from this nerf though, as Hail is already a hard weather to abuse on its own, and sun requires more support than most weathers to preform properly, so adding an extra restriction is not helping. If Swift Swim + Drizzle becomes legal again, you bet your ass rain will still see decent usage despite its heavy nerf. Most people would rather run weatherless teams anyway next generation because of the nerf, so with Damp Rock, you get 10 free turns to fuck shit up with your Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Omastar, Tornadus-T, etc. before having to switch back again. Smooth Stone Hippo or T-Tar might only see usage just to abuse Excadrill's Sand Rush ability, but it would still be very effective because Exca really only needs like 2 turns to get in and setup an SD. Overall, I'm not too unhappy with this nerf, as it will make team building a lot more interesting and weather teams more of a risk/reward strategy like they SHOULD be. I'm not too happy with hail and sand getting nerfed along with rain and sun which are clearly the more powerful weather's, but whatever, I don't mind the change. Besides, the last thing these Mega Evolutions needed was a potential boost from weather, like Charizard Y and X in the sun and Mega Blastoise in the rain. I just find it nice to see that weather will still be usable, but harder to use, and potentially nerfed enough that SS + Drizzle will be legal, and previously banned threats such as Manaphy, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Excadrill and Blaziken will be more manageable because of it.

EDIT: Everyone prepare to have their balls blown off for one of the most significant nerfs yet: http://i.imgur.com/yN8ow26l.jpg

 

[Katakiri]

That's all assuming the weather rocks work for abilities. (They extend weather to 8 turns btw.) And if it works and they have to run weather rocks, Politoed and Ninetales are at a huge disadvange with no power-boosting item or lefties. Tyranitar and Abomasnow really don't need weather rocks and neither does Hippowdon because weather support is probably the 3rd reason Tyranitar & Hippo are used (stealth rock & high bulk being 1 & 2). Mega Abomasnow can abuse its own weather to a scary extent with that Base 150 SpA Blizzard (even if it's nerfed now) as well as scare off Politoed and Tyranitar with a Giga Drain coming from the same stat.

With a lack of power and survivability, Politoed with Damp Rock is just not worth it. In fact, having to carry a defensive Pokemon with mediocre stats like Politoed for 5 turns of rain wouldn't be worth it either. Specs still does good damage, but with everything Gen 6 has to offer, I feel like Politoed won't be worth using against something like running Rain Dance on a random Pokemon (hi, Keldeo) for nearly the same effect.

Weather will be just as common as it is now, but I believe weather teams are going to decline in usage. Tyranitar is likely to see just a much use as always and Mega Abomasnow's anti-water typing, sheer power, coverage, Ice Shard, and 100% accurate STAB Blizzard are going to give it a powerful niche outside of traditional Hail teams.

Think about it. Tentacruel can't Rain stall, Vaporeon can't HydraRest stall, Venusaur can't sweep for more than 3 turns at a time (Ninetales sets Sun turn 1, switching out eats another turn), even Excadrill only has 3 turns to sweep and his weather starters have the same weakness that he does, making switching-in extremely hard. Weather teams as we knew them are dead.

This weather nerf may be exactly what we needed for calming some outrageous threats.

 

[Halcyon.]

http://i.imgur.com/yN8ow26l.jpg

So this is pretty huge. Hidden Power has now been officially made 60 BP. That's about a 15% drop in power from what we're used to. How will this effect the metagame?

 

[Mulligan]

To answer some of the folks above, it was already confirmed that once you Mega Evolve, that Pokemon stays in it's Mega state even if you switch out. As far as Shadow Tag working, GF has always made it to where if you switch out as the Shadow Tagger comes in, you won't be trapped. Obviously this could change (I doubt it).

The pic is gone for Mega Gengar. Did it change to Ghost/Psychic? Because if it did, we shouldn't get in a tizzy until we see how much of a buff Gengar gets in SpA. Sludge Bomb wouldn't be STAB anymore.

EDIT: Got confirmation below. So it stays Ghost/Poison. Thanks guys!

 

[TaBuu]

Regarding the Hidden Power base power drop, that's huge.
Special Attackers were always special compared to Physical Attackers for two reasons. No detriments from Burns and the access to "unlimited" coverage from Hidden Power. 70 Base Power was passable and keep in mind it was never STABed. Dropping it to a base Power of 60 will hurt some Pokemon. For example Scarfed Keldeo's HP Ice was a solid OHKO (86% iirc). However Scarf Keldeo now only gets to have a guaranteed 2HKO. Other things like HP Fire from a +2 Timid Venusaur under Drought is no longer capable of OHKOing a SpDef Celebi.
Hidden Power will still definitely be utilized no question about that. However it's not going to the Hidden Power we all used to know and love.
IDK if it's already been discussed here but this "Power Drop" is happening to a ton of Specially Based Moves, like Thunder, Blizzard and Hurricane.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Well... that really changes things up.

Honestly the only reason people use hidden powers is coverage, with hidden power so low, its likely other moves will simple out beat it. A lot of stab moves already come close to beating out super effective HP, now its definite. Hidden Power can still be used to hit very specific things, but they will have to be quadrupedally weak.

 

[LRCN]

why would you reduce hidden power bp? that's ridiculous. terrible from nintendo. i like the bulky nature of the new mons but remain really sceptical about how some of the type nerfs will play out. also, like i said earlier, i'm worried the impact mega evos will have, and i'll think the game will become about getting that mega to rinse the opposition

 

[Katakiri]

To answer some of the folks above, it was already confirmed that once you Mega Evolve, that Pokemon stays in it's Mega state even if you switch out. As far as Shadow Tag working, GF has always made it to where if you switch out as the Shadow Tagger comes in, you won't be trapped. Obviously this could change (I doubt it).

The pic is gone for Mega Gengar. Did it change to Ghost/Psychic? Because if it did, we shouldn't get in a tizzy until we see how much of a buff Gengar gets in SpA. Sludge Bomb wouldn't be STAB anymore.

It's still Ghost/Poison.


Princess Bubblegum already summed up my thoughts on the Hidden Power nerf.

Here's to a Close Combat nerf next. Stall must live!

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Get the Technician Roserades ready, everyone! Get ready to abuse that 90 BP Hidden Power Fire/Ice without having to drop IVs!

...

Okay, but for everything else, it could be big. For example, +2 LO Thundurus-T no longer has a snowball's chance in hell at OHKOing SpD Celebi with HP Ice (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 270-320 (66.83 - 79.2%)) while previously it had about a 31% chance to do so (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 315-372 (77.97 - 92.07%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.) However, judging by various calcs, it seems that against targets 4x weak (which, iirc, Hidden Power is commonly used for) it's not that big of a deal. Hidden Power will probably mostly see usage to cover Pokemon quadruply weak to it, as Scarfwynaut Princess Bubblegum (sorry, I'm just so used to that name) stated; 60 Base Power just doesn't cut it otherwise.

 

[GoliathGarchomp]

They nerfed Weather to just 5 turns? That's huge! I know weather was very powerful and in some situations you could call it overpowered but limiting it to just 5 turns seems like way to much of a nerf to me. That means Pokémon like Venusaur only have 4 turns to sweep, and that if everything goes well. 3 turns if they choose to set up e.g Venusaur using growth. I can really see weather dropping a ton in usage as you'll need a whole team dedicated to keeping it set up. I wonder if a Pokémon like Politoad switches in with Damp Rock it boost it from 5-8 turns. That could be helpful but still the loss of an item is huge. Despite this I can still see weather being viable, but not in the same way as before. Sandstorm could still be viable as Tyranitar himself can abuse the weather boosting his special defence and he has Hippo to help him keep the sand up. If the swift swim + drizzle ban gets lifted, which I reckon it will I can see that being viable as its very powerful and there are some decent damp rock users out there. I really see full scale Hail teams being viable but Hail itself will probably be used just because Mega Abomasnow can abuse it him self. Drought will be really hard to pull off but if the rumour Stealth Rock being nerfed is true I can see teams of Ninetales+MegazardY being decent, especially since like Mega Abomasnow MegazardY can take immediate advantage of the sun using powerful Fire moves coming off what I presume (Haven't seen anything on what his base stats might be) a very good special attack stat. Anyway to sum this up, weather will never be same as it was last gen (well obviously) and will be considerably harder to run.

Thoughts on Mega Gengar. That thing looks extremely broken. Shadow Tag + boosted speed and special attack! Not to mention his already boost with Steel not resisting Ghost and Poison type buff with Fairy. This thing will probably be banned before some of the current Ubers aloud back in are. I don't understand you Game Freak, you nerf weather to balance the game and then create this guy? These are just my opinions though and they probably don't count for much since I haven't really been playing much competitive Pokémon as of late.

 

[GCSChris]

To answer some of the folks above, it was already confirmed that once you Mega Evolve, that Pokemon stays in it's Mega state even if you switch out. As far as Shadow Tag working, GF has always made it to where if you switch out as the Shadow Tagger comes in, you won't be trapped. Obviously this could change (I doubt it).

The pic is gone for Mega Gengar. Did it change to Ghost/Psychic? Because if it did, we shouldn't get in a tizzy until we see how much of a buff Gengar gets in SpA. Sludge Bomb wouldn't be STAB anymore.

I added the pic to the OP after uploading it to imgur before the 4 chan link could expire. It's in the OP under MegaGengar

The Hidden Power BP drop is pretty big. I kind of like it, as it limits coverage more. Things like Keldeo are very powerful because of their great abuse of Hidden Power. This will limit that to a point. That's all i got. :P

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Manual Rain Dance teams (as in swift swim+hurricane abuse) and Sunny Day teams (clorophyl+fire spam) will be making a return, if people are still willing to run weather. Hydration and dry skin strategies are dead (lol goodra) and politoed and ninetales have no reason to be used anymore. Hail doesnt seem to have got anything other than mega abomasnow. With frost breath being a 90% accuracy blizzard now, hail offense loses a lot of its niche, and the 5 turns nerf kills hail stall. Sand is rather odd. Tyranitar and hippowdon are still good and there was never really that much sand abusers (good ones at least). Excadrill and landorus are the few exceptions, and they will most likely be tested again. I can see smooth rock ttar+sand rush drill+sand force landorus/mega chomp being a thing. Yeah weather will probably not be a dominant force anymore, which is good for balance, but at the same time the nerf was way too harsh so it will most likely not be that viable, which is bad as it reduces diversity. Btw mega gengar is broken af.

 

[Yuttt]

YES FINALLY

HP was just so broken on special attackers imo. Now, with a decrease to 60BP, a resisted STAB of greater than 80BP will outdamage a neutral HP, as opposed to the 93BP needed with the 75BP HP. Could it be? Is Gamefreak finally nerfing HO? This whole gen seems to contradict my idea that Gamefreak will always introduce more powerful sweepers, as battling NPCs quicker is more fun, whereas stall is not as fun ingame. Although there are mega mons and so forth, it seems like there are some bulky ones. Could stall finally be better in this gen?

 

[Gary]

Someone calculated the base stats for Mega Absol from this picture:

They are 65/150/60/115/60/115

Again, no surprise coming from a Mega evolution. Still, Absol was always considered a sub par Pokemon that would always be cursed to the lower tiers, but with this huge ass buff, you bet your ass Absol's got a niche in OU now. Although it's still very frail, it's humongous Attack, blazing Speed, and high Special Attack will make it a very powerful and potent sweeper, capable of ripping offensive teams to shreds once it sets up. It will have quite a few opportunities to setup on defensive Pokemon that depend on status or phazing moves to cripple sweepers, like Celebi or Jellicent for example. I think an all-out attacker set may even be useful, as it can use moves such as Fire Blast, Superpower, Pursuit, Megahorn, and Sucker Punch to break through opposing walls, trap Psychic-types, and revenge kill. Even Iron Tail might have its uses on the sweeping sets, albeit unreliable, but it can destroy Fairy-types that would normally wall it. Fast, powerful, and an awesome movepool will make this thing a dangerous Pokemon no doubt.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 187-222 (54.83 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (130 atk+life orb)
252+ Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 160-189 (46.92 - 55.42%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO (150 atk)
Yeah...no. Unless you want to go mixed i guess, but at that point youre better off with something else.

 

[Gary]

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 187-222 (54.83 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (130 atk+life orb)
252+ Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 160-189 (46.92 - 55.42%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO (150 atk)
Yeah...no. Unless you want to go mixed i guess, but at that point youre better off with something else.

Gee I don't know...maybe you forgot that it has 115 base speed? I mean, that's fucking huge. I guess outpacing a a majority of the metagame isn't good enough for you. Magic Bounce is great too, as it keeps shit from burning it with Will-O-Wisp. Its load of speed allows it to take more advantage of its monstrous Attack stat. It wont be spamming Sucker Punch 99% of the time when it can just spam coverage moves or even Night Slash if it would rather forgo coverage for a more reliable STAB move.

 

[GCSChris]

Yeah, it's interesting because its damage output is lacking but serves a HUGE niche with very high speed and magic bounce, which can keep SR off the field for its team and can't get statused. That's pretty big. I'm not saying MegaAbsol will be amazing OU, but it will at least be useable imo

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Sucker punch still exists, and missing koes because of lowered power is definitely something to consider. You also need to consider, why would i want to use a mega form that is a little better in some areas and a little worse in others compared to its original form, when i only have one mega slot to spend it on. With stuff like zard (two mega formes), gengar (shadow tag, ghost buff nuff said) or even abomasnow, all of which completely outclass their normal formes and offer a lot more to a team, mega absol is not really looking that impressive.

 

[alexwolf]

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 187-222 (54.83 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (130 atk+life orb)
252+ Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 160-189 (46.92 - 55.42%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO (150 atk)
Yeah...no. Unless you want to go mixed i guess, but at that point youre better off with something else.

115 Speed + Magic Bounce are plenty of reasons to use Mega Absol over Absol. If your team needs some anti hazards protection + strong piroity + good wallbreaker + speedy revenge killer, Mega Absol is the Pokemon you are looking for. All the other MEvos you mentioned don't have such strong priority and Magic Bounce.

 

[Immortal]

Interesting stuff, here is my weather breakdown:


Sand is in the same boat with two weather inducers but they dont seem to suffer as badly because most of the main sand abusers are uber anyway. they dont seem to rely on having their weather up nearly as much as sun. people will probably just use T tar because it is a pretty good pokemon. he gets a nice special defense boost from sand and i highly doubt he will stay in for 5 turns anyway. Not much problem here

Sun can use charizard Y and ninetales in tandem to keep the sun up alot of the time however they are both extremely hazard weak so switching them in consistently sounds tough. the real problem is the sun running out on chlorophyll pokemon. Guys like venusaur and lilligannt were probably the best reasons to use sun in gen 5. This nerf hurts them alot because without sun neither of them are very useful and it will be hard to find opportunities to switch them in. The next problem if you do manage to switch them in with a favorable match up and drought active is that they have a limited time to sweep. using sleep powder+ growth on venusaur will be much less useful considering your speed boost will run out by the time you set up. Considering it only has average defenses and an unimpressive speed stat outside of sun, venusaur wont be nearly as powerful as it was. Considering sun teams typically dont have great synergy to begin with, this is a huge hit for a style that had trouble keeping it sunny with even when weather was permanent. I wonder if Charizard Y will have impressive enough stats to make it worth using without a dedicated sun team. Obviousy he will need spin support but unlike ninetales it should have the special attack to actually make use of sun itself. All in all this is a huge loss for sun

The odd thing about hail is abamasnow could theoretically restart the hail if it runs out while he is in battle by mega evolving... but who cares? That odd strategy wont really be viable and without hail being permanent i dont see much reason to use it at all. blizzard has been nerfed to 110 base power and except on the 5 turns with hail up it still has that lousy accuracy Frost breath got a boost that essentially makes it outclass blizzard anyway. the impressive offensive stats of mega Abomasnow are the only real reason to justify using hail when it has this short of a duration.

Finally rain, I am thinking we will be seeing alot less of it considering how crappy politoed is combined with the fact that he is the only rain inducer. using choice specs really isnt justifiable because it means you only get 5 turns of rain and politoed has pretty underwhelming stats,. likewise using a bulky set + leftovers also means you will have only 5 turns and sets like you see now with protect and parish song will just be wasting the few turns you have with the rain up. Besides, defensive politoed doesnt hit very hard even with a rain boosts. the only real option would be giving it the damp rock or whatever to make it last 8 turns but when you think about it, even that isnt very long. Also without specs or leftovers politoed will be very underpowered and easy to wear down. Pokemon like ferrothorn enjoyed the fire nerf but it will no longer be permanant and hydration is almost useless now. The only reason for politoed to see much use is if swift swim pokemon are allowed to be used with it.

honestly I am not expecting to see much weather outside of t tar unless charizard Y gets insane stats.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I
Sand is in the same boat with two weather inducers but they dont seem to suffer as badly because most of the main sand abusers are uber anyway. they dont seem to rely on having their weather up nearly as much as sun.

what are you on about? excadrill isn't nearly as threatening outside of the sand, being a rather slow Pokemon in the meta

I am liking the special attacker nerfs, my Blissey and Chansey are smiling. Try to KO us now Charizard. :)

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Yes, it does have a niche, but the regular absol is still offering the sheer power that will make it the superior choice most of the time. Good wallbreaker and strong priority user are niches it can fill better than its mega counterpart, while freeing your mega slot. Yes, it cant keep hazards off the field and depends on sucker punch to deal with some threats (though most of them are all-out-attackers anyway), but you cant deny that absol is a better pokemon for those teams that arent in need of hazard protection.

 

[Jaiho]

So the elemental trio of BP 120 moves have been nerfed to base 110. If this applies to other base 120 moves, like cc, focus blast, hydro pump, power whip, outrage, solarbeam, megahorn, superpower, hurricane, and the recoil moves (brave bird, flare blitz, double edge), would this increase the defensive, bulky nature this gen has been taking?

Also, according to the leaks thread, frost breath is now base 60 with 100% crit chance, basically making it an improved blizzard. Will it be used, or will its poor distribution bring it down?
EDIT: NVM (Mega) Abomasnow gets it. It will be used.