-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Infernape [QC: 1/4]
- Thread starter Hibiki
- Start date
making some changes now - evs were originally based on HP ice calcs, so their benchmarks are now moot, correct? i'm not sure what to calc for at this point
edit: 252 SpA 'nape can't guarantee 2hko on M-Venusaur :|
edit: 252 SpA 'nape can't guarantee 2hko on M-Venusaur :|
this was intentional as talonflame fits both criteria, but i see how the 2nd is irrelevant so i removed it
Last edited:
Hibiki
Changes I'd like you to make, sorry for the wait:
Changes I'd like you to make, sorry for the wait:
- For usage tips, please mention that Infernape is to be used as a mixed supporting attacker rather than a sweeper, so the player shouldn't despair at Infernape fainting because it's paving for your other sweepers.
- For team options, please put in some hazard layers. Infernape, like other mixed attackers, operates best with stacked hazards because it forces a ton of switches, and those that come in to resist moves are punished. Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D should be fine here. Also mention that ideally, it's good to bring Infernape in with U-turn or Volt Switch, though I guess you already got that covered with Rotom-W.
- In Checks and Counters, remove the HP Grass mention on Rotom-W, since HP Grass is sort of a terrible move and Infernape can already wear it down with Close Combat (almost a 2HKO).
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
You're probably in the process of updating this, but yo ucan remove the usage tip about Infernape struggling with rotom. It 2hkos it with CC, so its not an issue.
Usage tips need a bit of beefing. Try and come up with a spread of your own if you can, though I might concoct something and get back to you.
Usage tips need a bit of beefing. Try and come up with a spread of your own if you can, though I might concoct something and get back to you.
Oh yeah and put Grass Knot first in the last slot of the set, since Hippowdon and Quagsire are stupidly common and annoying enough to warrant it, and Mach Punch isn't too terribly useful save for picking off.
[01:11] <@Colonel_M> I think Grass Knot should be the first slash in Slot 4
[01:12] <@Colonel_M> like i think it should be
[01:12] <@AccidentalGreed> Colonel_M
[01:12] <@Colonel_M> ja
[01:12] <@AccidentalGreed> Due to how stupidly common Quagsire and Hippowdon are
[01:12] <@AccidentalGreed> I agree
[01:12] <@Colonel_M> Thank you based AG
Make Grass Knot the first slash in the set. And remove the mention of HP Grass. Also expand what Grass Knot / HP Ice does please.
Last slot should be Grass Knot / Mach Punch / HP Ice. Mention Grass Knot for stall, Mach Punch for revenge killing / speed ties, and HP Ice for... Gliscor I guess?
EDIT: GDI ninja'd. Deleting AG post.
[01:12] <@Colonel_M> like i think it should be
[01:12] <@AccidentalGreed> Colonel_M
[01:12] <@Colonel_M> ja
[01:12] <@AccidentalGreed> Due to how stupidly common Quagsire and Hippowdon are
[01:12] <@AccidentalGreed> I agree
[01:12] <@Colonel_M> Thank you based AG
Make Grass Knot the first slash in the set. And remove the mention of HP Grass. Also expand what Grass Knot / HP Ice does please.
Last slot should be Grass Knot / Mach Punch / HP Ice. Mention Grass Knot for stall, Mach Punch for revenge killing / speed ties, and HP Ice for... Gliscor I guess?
EDIT: GDI ninja'd. Deleting AG post.
I thought of coming in and trying to clarify a bit on the EV spread. Gonna make a few comments on concerning moves too.
First of all, as HP Ice is no longer the first slash, the EV spread obviously needs upgrading. I spent a few hours on the calculator to come up with benchmarks that make some sense, and I'm going to post them down below. One thing I feel should be mentiones in Set details is that Infernape's Speed can be adjusted to teams needs, without giving up +Speed nature. Obviously, as 108 base Speed is a tad crowded, max. Speed should be the first option. However, Infernape lacks in the power department, and if you can take a few points from Speed to bulk up your offenses, then it should be couraged. The things Infernape actually threatens in its Speed tier are Galvantula and Terrakion. Keldeo will always win 1-1, and the other Pokemon are not OU relevant. When we go down the speed tiers, Infernape's matchups largely depend on what it runs, but here's a speed tier list, showing Pokemon Infernape has atleast a decent chance of winning.
'kay, now that the Speed question is out of the way, I am going to suggest balancing out offense EVs more than they have been balanced out as of now. The reasons are twofold. First of all, I seriously believe Fire Blast should be slashed first, regardless of your other move choices, as with Flare Blitz and Life Orb you just become too much of a kamikaze-pilot. Most of your coverage moves are also specially based. The EV spread I will recommend is 168 Attack / 88 SpA / 252 Speed. I will post down more benchmarks, but I will defend this spread first. First of all, 168 Attack is needed to ensure OHKO on Heatran even if SR is not up. What it additionally covers is that you still have a good chance to OHKO regular, bulky DD Gyarados even if SR is not up, and you retain a good chance of 2HKOing a Bold Rotom-W when SR and Leftovers are accounted. 88 SpA lets you get past all variants of Skarmory reliably, you retain a good chance of 2HKOing physically bulky M-Venusaur, and you can 2HKO physically bulky Clefable. Below will be some additional EV-investment benchmarks, but I feel that this spread is the most optimal, given that Fire Blast is the first slash and the Speed isn't compromised. Sorry if the output is a bit messy, I just copypasted my own markings, the calcs are all made by calcing the most effective move, and if it isn't clear, the move is explicitly mentioned. There are calcs made for both Flare Blitz and Fire Blast, to give an estimate on their pros and cons.
Now, for the moves. As I mentioned, I believe that Fire Blast is the more optimal choice, even if Flare Blitz has better accuracy, and has more BP when invested. Flare Blitz doesn't really enable you to get past anything significant. While it generally hits harder against M-Venu, it won't let you get past physically invested variants, whereas Fire Blast will fail against specially invested Venusaur. The other notable thing Flare Blitz hits hard is a specially defensive Clefable. Regardless of Fire-STAB, I think Close Combat is the best move on Infernape, and thus the EVs should primarily be emphasized in Attack, rather than Special Attack. Although one should notice that even with 0 investment, Close Combat usually gets past everything it's supposed to. ThunderPunch is most likely the best option for third move, as it gives you a nice way of getting past Gyarados and Char-Y. However, in order to OHKO Char-Y, you need to have rocks up, and if Gyarados has its Mega Stone equipped, you have to start a guessing game, since the only chance you have of stopping him is to predict the type change and hit with CC. Only a dumb Gyarados user will stay in Water/Flying-type against Infernape. Ofc, Thunderpunch has some surprise merit, so that might help you getting past. Outside of these, you won't OHKO anything, as ThunderPunch just lacks power. Keldeo, Manaphy and Politoed are all 2HKOed, and Azumarill only needs to click Aqua Jet. Now the 4th option is troublesome, but I'm very hesitant in putting anything but HP Ice as first slash. Lets start with Mach Punch. Realistically, the only scenario where Mach Punch is the most useful option is that if your team is Greninja weak, as with enough Attack investment and SR, you have a good chance of OHKOing Greninja. You don't need Mach Punch against Bisharp, and against Terrakion and M-Tyranitar we get calcs like this:
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 250-296 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth RockOML THAT BULK
Now I agree that Grass Knot is a good option against Quagsire, and if you need an answer for it, go ahead and equip it. However, unless you invest heavily in SpA, you will only 2HKO a physically defensive Hippowdon, and will fare even worse against a specially defensive variant. You will always 2HKO, but Hippowdon has a chance to retaliate with EQ. Grass Knot might be more consistent option against Hippowdon, as Fire Blast won't 2HKO specially defensive versions, but seeing as most Hippowdon are physically defensive, Fire Blast does just fine. Now HP Ice, on the other hand, really gives the most coverage out of the three options. With the 44 SpA EVs, you OHKO a myriad of threats after SR, and if you don't mind investing heavily in SpA, 156 EVs gives you a good chance of OHKOing standard 4/0 Garchomp after SR. HP Ice hits hard all the dragons 4x weak to Ice (read: almost any Dragon), and gives you a way of getting past Lando-formes and Gliscor reliably. This is why I will advocate the following set for the main set:
move 1: Fire Blast / Flare Blitz
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Thunder Punch
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Grass Knot / Mach Punch
ability: Iron Fist
item: Life Orb
evs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Speed
nature: Naive / Hasty (nature doesn't really matter; Naive for some weak priority, Hasty might let you fare better against Thundurus and Gengar, but that's about it...)
I hope I didn't come off too messy, and you got the general idea behind the spreads, moveset suggestions etc. All of my arguments are pretty much based on those EV investment lists, and I believe that those lists cover somewhat all the relevant situations that should determine Infernape's EV spread. I hope that Hibiki and QC members can take what's relevant from those lists and find the most optimal spread / moveset to run.
First of all, as HP Ice is no longer the first slash, the EV spread obviously needs upgrading. I spent a few hours on the calculator to come up with benchmarks that make some sense, and I'm going to post them down below. One thing I feel should be mentiones in Set details is that Infernape's Speed can be adjusted to teams needs, without giving up +Speed nature. Obviously, as 108 base Speed is a tad crowded, max. Speed should be the first option. However, Infernape lacks in the power department, and if you can take a few points from Speed to bulk up your offenses, then it should be couraged. The things Infernape actually threatens in its Speed tier are Galvantula and Terrakion. Keldeo will always win 1-1, and the other Pokemon are not OU relevant. When we go down the speed tiers, Infernape's matchups largely depend on what it runs, but here's a speed tier list, showing Pokemon Infernape has atleast a decent chance of winning.
Max. Speed
Terrakion
Galvantula
232 Speed:
M-Pinsir
Zoroark
208 Speed:
Garchomp
200 Speed:
Landorus
Thundurus-T
192 Speed:
base 100 + positive nature
Terrakion
Galvantula
232 Speed:
M-Pinsir
Zoroark
208 Speed:
Garchomp
200 Speed:
Landorus
Thundurus-T
192 Speed:
base 100 + positive nature
'kay, now that the Speed question is out of the way, I am going to suggest balancing out offense EVs more than they have been balanced out as of now. The reasons are twofold. First of all, I seriously believe Fire Blast should be slashed first, regardless of your other move choices, as with Flare Blitz and Life Orb you just become too much of a kamikaze-pilot. Most of your coverage moves are also specially based. The EV spread I will recommend is 168 Attack / 88 SpA / 252 Speed. I will post down more benchmarks, but I will defend this spread first. First of all, 168 Attack is needed to ensure OHKO on Heatran even if SR is not up. What it additionally covers is that you still have a good chance to OHKO regular, bulky DD Gyarados even if SR is not up, and you retain a good chance of 2HKOing a Bold Rotom-W when SR and Leftovers are accounted. 88 SpA lets you get past all variants of Skarmory reliably, you retain a good chance of 2HKOing physically bulky M-Venusaur, and you can 2HKO physically bulky Clefable. Below will be some additional EV-investment benchmarks, but I feel that this spread is the most optimal, given that Fire Blast is the first slash and the Speed isn't compromised. Sorry if the output is a bit messy, I just copypasted my own markings, the calcs are all made by calcing the most effective move, and if it isn't clear, the move is explicitly mentioned. There are calcs made for both Flare Blitz and Fire Blast, to give an estimate on their pros and cons.
24 Attack needed to guarantee OHKO with Close Combat without SR on Chansey
80 Attack guarantees 2HKO with SR on phys. bulky Gyarados at -1
92 Attack needed to have 57% chance to 2HKO with SR and Leftovers on Rotom-W
104 Attack needed to ensure 2HKO with SR on spec. def. M-Venu
140 Attack has 56,3% chance of OHKOing without SR 88 / 4 Gyarados at -1
144 Attack to have 67,2 % chance to 2HKO without SR spec. def. M-Venu or 55.9% chance to 2HKO 252/ 68+ M-Venu with SR
168 Attack guarantees OHKO even without SR on Heatran
184 Atk 56,3% chance to OHKO with Flare Blitz without SR on Thundy-T
188 Attack 56,3% OHKO w/ Mach Punch with SR 4 / 0 Greninja
200 Attack needed to guarantee 2HKO on Rotom-W with SR
204 Attack needed to have 56,3% chance on OHKOing without SR 248 HP Kyu-B
236 Attack guarantees without SR OHKO on 88 / 4 Gyarados
more attack:
-guarantee OHKO on M-Gyara with CC with -1
-guarantee 2HKO on specially defensive Venu w/ Flare Blitz
-to have a chance at 2HKOing Rotom-W without SR
80 Attack guarantees 2HKO with SR on phys. bulky Gyarados at -1
92 Attack needed to have 57% chance to 2HKO with SR and Leftovers on Rotom-W
104 Attack needed to ensure 2HKO with SR on spec. def. M-Venu
140 Attack has 56,3% chance of OHKOing without SR 88 / 4 Gyarados at -1
144 Attack to have 67,2 % chance to 2HKO without SR spec. def. M-Venu or 55.9% chance to 2HKO 252/ 68+ M-Venu with SR
168 Attack guarantees OHKO even without SR on Heatran
184 Atk 56,3% chance to OHKO with Flare Blitz without SR on Thundy-T
188 Attack 56,3% OHKO w/ Mach Punch with SR 4 / 0 Greninja
200 Attack needed to guarantee 2HKO on Rotom-W with SR
204 Attack needed to have 56,3% chance on OHKOing without SR 248 HP Kyu-B
236 Attack guarantees without SR OHKO on 88 / 4 Gyarados
more attack:
-guarantee OHKO on M-Gyara with CC with -1
-guarantee 2HKO on specially defensive Venu w/ Flare Blitz
-to have a chance at 2HKOing Rotom-W without SR
16 SpA to have a chance of 2HKOing with Fire Blast Zapdos without SR
32 SpA guarantees 2HKO with Fire Blast with SR on Mandibuzz
36 Sp.A has 52,3% chance to 2HKO phys. def. Clefable
44 SpA HP Ice number
56 Sp.A needed to have 55,9% chance of 2HKOing with SR phys. def. M-Venu
68 SpA needed to have 56,3% chance to OHKO spec. def. Skarmory
100 SpA ensure 2HKO on Zapdos without SR
128 Sp.A needed to ensure 2HKO on phys. def. Clefable
156 Sp.A 56,3% chance to OHKO w/ SR w/ HP Ice 4 / 0 Garchomp
160 SpA ensures OHKO on spec. def. Skarmory
176 Sp.A needed to ensure 2HKO with SR on phys. def. M-Venu
196 Sp.A 56,3% chance to OHKO after SR on phys. def. Hippowdon w/GK
more special attack:
-have a good chance to 2HKO phys. def. M-Venu without SR
-have a good chance to 2HKO Mandibuzz without SR
-have a good chance to OHKO Aegislash with Fire Blast with SR
32 SpA guarantees 2HKO with Fire Blast with SR on Mandibuzz
36 Sp.A has 52,3% chance to 2HKO phys. def. Clefable
44 SpA HP Ice number
56 Sp.A needed to have 55,9% chance of 2HKOing with SR phys. def. M-Venu
68 SpA needed to have 56,3% chance to OHKO spec. def. Skarmory
100 SpA ensure 2HKO on Zapdos without SR
128 Sp.A needed to ensure 2HKO on phys. def. Clefable
156 Sp.A 56,3% chance to OHKO w/ SR w/ HP Ice 4 / 0 Garchomp
160 SpA ensures OHKO on spec. def. Skarmory
176 Sp.A needed to ensure 2HKO with SR on phys. def. M-Venu
196 Sp.A 56,3% chance to OHKO after SR on phys. def. Hippowdon w/GK
more special attack:
-have a good chance to 2HKO phys. def. M-Venu without SR
-have a good chance to 2HKO Mandibuzz without SR
-have a good chance to OHKO Aegislash with Fire Blast with SR
Now, for the moves. As I mentioned, I believe that Fire Blast is the more optimal choice, even if Flare Blitz has better accuracy, and has more BP when invested. Flare Blitz doesn't really enable you to get past anything significant. While it generally hits harder against M-Venu, it won't let you get past physically invested variants, whereas Fire Blast will fail against specially invested Venusaur. The other notable thing Flare Blitz hits hard is a specially defensive Clefable. Regardless of Fire-STAB, I think Close Combat is the best move on Infernape, and thus the EVs should primarily be emphasized in Attack, rather than Special Attack. Although one should notice that even with 0 investment, Close Combat usually gets past everything it's supposed to. ThunderPunch is most likely the best option for third move, as it gives you a nice way of getting past Gyarados and Char-Y. However, in order to OHKO Char-Y, you need to have rocks up, and if Gyarados has its Mega Stone equipped, you have to start a guessing game, since the only chance you have of stopping him is to predict the type change and hit with CC. Only a dumb Gyarados user will stay in Water/Flying-type against Infernape. Ofc, Thunderpunch has some surprise merit, so that might help you getting past. Outside of these, you won't OHKO anything, as ThunderPunch just lacks power. Keldeo, Manaphy and Politoed are all 2HKOed, and Azumarill only needs to click Aqua Jet. Now the 4th option is troublesome, but I'm very hesitant in putting anything but HP Ice as first slash. Lets start with Mach Punch. Realistically, the only scenario where Mach Punch is the most useful option is that if your team is Greninja weak, as with enough Attack investment and SR, you have a good chance of OHKOing Greninja. You don't need Mach Punch against Bisharp, and against Terrakion and M-Tyranitar we get calcs like this:
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 250-296 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now I agree that Grass Knot is a good option against Quagsire, and if you need an answer for it, go ahead and equip it. However, unless you invest heavily in SpA, you will only 2HKO a physically defensive Hippowdon, and will fare even worse against a specially defensive variant. You will always 2HKO, but Hippowdon has a chance to retaliate with EQ. Grass Knot might be more consistent option against Hippowdon, as Fire Blast won't 2HKO specially defensive versions, but seeing as most Hippowdon are physically defensive, Fire Blast does just fine. Now HP Ice, on the other hand, really gives the most coverage out of the three options. With the 44 SpA EVs, you OHKO a myriad of threats after SR, and if you don't mind investing heavily in SpA, 156 EVs gives you a good chance of OHKOing standard 4/0 Garchomp after SR. HP Ice hits hard all the dragons 4x weak to Ice (read: almost any Dragon), and gives you a way of getting past Lando-formes and Gliscor reliably. This is why I will advocate the following set for the main set:
move 1: Fire Blast / Flare Blitz
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Thunder Punch
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Grass Knot / Mach Punch
ability: Iron Fist
item: Life Orb
evs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Speed
nature: Naive / Hasty (nature doesn't really matter; Naive for some weak priority, Hasty might let you fare better against Thundurus and Gengar, but that's about it...)
I hope I didn't come off too messy, and you got the general idea behind the spreads, moveset suggestions etc. All of my arguments are pretty much based on those EV investment lists, and I believe that those lists cover somewhat all the relevant situations that should determine Infernape's EV spread. I hope that Hibiki and QC members can take what's relevant from those lists and find the most optimal spread / moveset to run.
I like Timpsu's set above for Mixape. Make it that, and don't forget to add stuff to the regarding the EVs (enough Attack to OHKO Heatran). Also, you forgot to mention Grass Knot.
You say in the overview that Infernape struggles with defensive Pokemon, but this isn't actually all that true. Infernape actually fares quite well against most of them—every member of your typical joe-shmoe stall team hates at least one of the moves on Infernape.
Don't forget to add that to usage tips and add teammates that may struggle with stuff like Chansey, Heatran, Skarmory, Hippowdon, etc.
QC 2/4
You say in the overview that Infernape struggles with defensive Pokemon, but this isn't actually all that true. Infernape actually fares quite well against most of them—every member of your typical joe-shmoe stall team hates at least one of the moves on Infernape.
Don't forget to add that to usage tips and add teammates that may struggle with stuff like Chansey, Heatran, Skarmory, Hippowdon, etc.
QC 2/4
I feel like offensive Mega Venusaur should get a mention in Team Options since it either counters or can check a lot of Pokemon that Infernape has problems with. It counters Azumarill, Clefable and Sylveon thanks to it resisting their main stabs and retaliating with Sludge Bomb or Giga Drain. As well as checking Keldeo and Thundurus insanely well while being able to sustain it back up with recovery via Synthesis. As well as countering Sub Toxic Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Quagsire. You also wouldn't need to run Grass Knot, which you can use to opt whether you need to answer Landorus-I, Garchomp, and D-Nite via HP Ice or whethre you ned to revenge kill Greninja's, Mega Gyarados and the likes with Mach Punch. Both will be weak to Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and the Lati@s, but it removes plenty of problems Infernape has.