Genesect [QC: 1/3]

[nmitchell890]

Genesect gets more out of Download if it uses 8Atk / 248SpA instead of 4Atk / 252SpA on the special Choice Scarf set. If this can be implemented elsewhere as well then even better.

 

[Jukain]

Okay I talked on irc to pk, fuzznip, et al a few days ago about Iron Head and there was unanimous agreement among everybody (the three or four QC members there) that physical Iron Head Scarfsect is far and above the best set. Iron Head hits Fairies and Kyurem-B, and provides game-changing flinches. It absolutely wrecks the blobs, which no specially biased Scarf could ever do. It is truly a strong STAB move; Bug Buzz just doesn't do it. Physically based Scarf should be the first set. Set order based on my thoughts/what we discussed:

physical scarf / shift gear / special scarf / band / special all-out / physical all-out

Physical Scarf is our best set. Shift Gear is the devastating sweeper. Special Scarf has the coverage as a revenge killer. Band is the hard hitter. It gets moved up a few spots because of its insane power, which particularly Gary2346 advocated. Special all-out attacker is next because it's just a nice attacker overall with coverage and nice utility. Physical all-out attacker is last as a more flexible Band set almost; it's a great set, but the others outshine it often.

The C&C is skimpy. Mention stuff that takes at least most of Bug STAB/Ice Beam and/or Flamethrower/IH at least reasonably well, especially U-turn switch-ins. Think Mega Aggron, Scizor, Zapdos, etc. Where is Rotom-W? It can burn Genesect and totally ruin its day whilst taking U-turn pretty well with max/max Bold. Think Chansey for any special set. Think Megazard X/Y. Think Clefable/Togekiss/Sylveon/Florges for special variants, specially defensive Hippowdon, Entei, Excadrill (especially AV), Gyarados, Sableye, Chandelure, Volcarona, Jellicent, Vaporeon...

You want **Fire-types**, **Will-O-Wisp Users**, and **Water-types** imo.

That's it for now.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree that physical Scarf is overall the most effective set. Special all-out should be placed higher imo, as it's one of the best lures (with EB) or a great hard hitter (with LO), which is much harder to play around than CB Sect.

All in all though, i am pretty happy with the set order that Jukain mentioned!

 

[Merqury]

I dunno if serebii just had a typo or something, but did anyone else notice now techno blast has 120 power and 100 accuracy? Wouldn't that make the drives a viable item on genesect again?

 

[jc104]

How about an OO mention for specs? Seems a perfectly reasonable set for me. It's Genesect's most powerful set and has good coverage, even if it might lack the utility of choice band or scarf.

 

[Jukain]

I dunno if serebii just had a typo or something, but did anyone else notice now techno blast has 120 power and 100 accuracy? Wouldn't that make the drives a viable item on genesect again?

You cannot bluff a drive because it changes Genesect's sprite. In addition, it inhibits your ability to use a more attractive item overall such as Life Orb, Expert Belt, or Focus Sash. These factors make it an OO mention -- no more, no less.

 

[Merqury]

I was mostly wondering since it's the only way genesect can get a water move to take out fire types that try to switch in on it. Anyway, gimmick but good to know.

 

[Jukain]

alright so choice specs set. supported by pk, ginganinja, and jc104 (former qc member).

name: Choice Specs
move 1: Bug Buzz
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Flash Cannon / U-turn
item: Choice Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid / Hasty

basically your special nuke. 2hkoes rotom-w, does 75% to phys def hippowdon...it's extremely strong. it switches in, attacks, and is nigh guaranteed to do some serious damage. bug buzz is the big spam stab, ib/ft for coverage, and flash cannon for other stab with different overall coverage for when something resists bug buzz and is pretty bulky so you can't clean with it w/o the flash cannon and hitting fairies hard. u-turn can be used for the obvious momentum and does some good damage with the attack boost, hence the hasty slash.

also mention thunderbolt, which 2hkoes heatran if you have enough hazards on the field and handles megazard y/talonflame. and energy ball, which fucks gastrodon and rotom-w. finally, mention hp ground to deal the most possible damage to heatran.

team options mention u-turn to duggy to get rid of tran.

revised set order: physical scarf / shift gear / special scarf / special all-out / band / specs / physical all-out

 

[BurningMan]

I am not a big fan of Specs Genesect none of its attacks are really desiarable to be locked into and present set-up opportunities for a myrad of Pokemon and the power boost compared to LO isn't that big. Genesects biggest strength isn't its incredible wallbreaking power or spammable stabs, but its incredible coverage that makes it almost impossible to wall. So unless Specs achieves some really worthwile KOs you can't get otherwise it doesn't seem like a really strong set. I think giving Specs a mention on the Special AoA set or simply a OO note is enough especially because it already has 6 sets.

Outside of that i think Jukains set order seems about right physical Scarf is great but it really needs to mention Extreme Speed somewhere although i am not 100% sure which move should be replaced (i am not a big fan of Explosion on a scarfer, but on the other hand that is Genes best way to deal with some dangerous threats)

 

[jc104]

A lot of the point of using specs is to have really powerful special attacks while maintaining recoil-free U-turns. With a Life Orb, U-turning is likely to hurt you as much as it does the opponent.

Yes, this does mean I think U-turn should be the only option in the last slot.

 

[BurningMan]

A lot of the point of using specs is to have really powerful special attacks while maintaining recoil-free U-turns. With a Life Orb, U-turning is likely to hurt you as much as it does the opponent.

Yes, this does mean I think U-turn should be the only option in the last slot.

Yeah i get that, but taking 10% recoil isn't as undesirable as being locked into Bug Buzz/Ice Beam/Flamethrower and the point of using U-Turn on this set isn't to put harm to the opponent, but to keep momentum on your side. Sure with LO you can't just mindlessly spam U-Turn, but this isn't the point of this set anyway, you want to threaten with Genesects powerful special attacks and this is something that works a lot better with LO, because you don't turn yourself into set-up fodder against things you could otherwise beat or at least prevent them from setting up for free like Mega-Mawile, Mega-Lucario, Aegislash etc.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree that getting locked into any of those moves on the Specs set is really bad. CB Sect works because it spams U-turn like crazy and has strong priority too. Most of those Pokemon that Specs blasts through, EB / LO can do too. For example, why do 75% damage to Hippo, when you can just 2HKO it with move + Ice Beam? Not only this, but the Specs set doesn't even get past usual checks and counters, such as Heatran, Chansey, Blissey, and Rotom-H, so i really don't see the point. Set details of the special LO / EB set seems as a much better place for this kind of set.

 

[Jukain]

when you use specs the opponent comes in to take a u-turn. when you bug buzz instead, stuff like phys def rotom-w and hippo get seriously hurt. also, opponents will often try and burn genesect. this genesect couldn't give half a shit about a burn and just blasts them to pieces.

basically all that physically bulky stuff that comes in to sponge u-turns you wreck.

with bug buzz, genesect can easily clean weakened opposing teams. it can do a serious amount of damage early-game as well. it isn't your standard u-turn all day every day genesect, but it sure as heck works.

oh and alex -- if hippo is forced out because you're gonna 2hko, it's better you take 3/4 of its health, which makes it unable to do much of anything later on.

no genesect set is getting past those checks and counters. specs doesn't need to, either. doing more damage isn't something you can easily underrate.

 

[alexwolf]

It's not worth getting locked into moves that can easily be taken advantage of, when another existing set can do what this set does (special LO). Special LO can already fuck up the same Pokemon, with the only difference that's easier to wear down, in which case you are better off with Expert Belt (which still 2HKOes stuff such as SpD Rotom-W after the Analytic boost). LO / EB special Gensesect is so much better than Specs, that Specs doesn't deserve more than a set details mention.

 

[Jukain]

in my experience -- and i've had a lot of it -- the lock-in is fine. you u-turn/switch if the opponent has a gene counter...otherwise you just blast holes into stuff.

expert belt is weak as all hell compared to specs. it's a different longevity option that has worked excellently for me. let's say sdef rotom-w came in on you and you didn't have the spatk boost:

252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs. Hippo:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 239-282 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Difference between the range of health: at ~half HP Hippowdon can come and do shit later. At like, what, 35%, it's going to have a lot more trouble.

Other neat calcs:
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 134-162 (33.1 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 184-217 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 126-148 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- Talonflame can't just switch in for free

252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not going to list a whole armada of calcs, but the damage difference is significant -- you can do a huge amount of damage.

EDIT: PK Gaming, Fuzznip, and ginganinja all agreed it deserved a set...for what it's worth.

Of course 50% is more than 30% -- I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, especially not yours. Just, the power difference is way more notable that you're making it out to be.

 

[alexwolf]

We all know that 50% is more than 30%, the point is that LO can get past anything that Specs can, but can switch moves and not become a liability for its team. I am not saying that the Specs set is useless either, but a main set is too much for such a situational set. That's what we have set details for. The vast majority of teams are going to prefer specially based with LO / EB, and Specs plays very similar to those sets to get its own set. Anyway, if the majority of the QC team thinks it deserves a main set, let's do it, but if it's not the majority then the set should be mentioned in set details instead.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Okay, but...what about Techno Blast without a drive? Just running it over Bug Buzz and Thunderbolt is enough. It lets you hit Rotom-W and not-Heatran Fire-types in the same slot. It's only a bit weaker than STAB Bug Buzz and Fire/Normal/Ice has perfect coverage outside of Jellicent, who isn't common anymore, and Heatran, who you can't touch no matter what anyway.

+1 252 SpA Genesect Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 175-206 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Genesect Hyper Voice vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 251-296 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Genesect Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Y: 164-193 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (don't get Download boost, but wreck it if it switches in)
+1 252 SpA Genesect Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 178-210 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (same)

for some reason calculator has no techno blast

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Assault Vest should replace Focus Sash as the second slash on "All-Out Attacker", since it lets Genesect function as more of a pivot against mons like Lati@s and non-LO Gengar, and even lets him survive some weaker Fire Blasts and Flamethrowers. Sash, on the other hand, is situational, and instantly becomes useless the second he switches into Stealth Rock. As such, it should be relegated to set details.

Here's an example of AV Genesect's bulk:

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 199-235 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Oh wow, I didn't realize that Assault Vest hasn't been mentioned. I actually tried Assault Vest Genesect out a couple weeks ago on what started as a joke team full of Assault Vest Pokemon, but I ended up really liking the set. A 0/0 Genesect has about the equivalent of an impressive base 151 SpD stat with the Assault Vest equipped, and given Genesect's excellent offensive movepool, it doesn't really miss the lack of status moves. In fact, I'd argue that Genesect's movepool is one of the best ones out there for an Assault Vest user given the availability of STAB U-turn, great priority, and tons of excellent coverage options. Like Super Mario Bro mentioned, Assault Vest Genesect's solid special bulk and great defensive typing also makes it a great pivot against stuff like Lati@s, random Fairy- and Psychic-types, etc. I agree that it should get at least a Set Details mention on the attacker set, if not a slash.

 

[Nysyr]

AV doesn't change much for Genesect at all, since the reason you use focus sash is to dodge a Fire punch OHKO from Deo-S.

Also, 4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 304-360 (107.4 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

 

[Jukain]

the question is 'why would you waste your genesect like that?' gene is arguably the best pokemon in ou; nigh saccing it so you can bring deo-s down to its sash is honestly kinda silly.

 

[Unowninator]

AV doesn't change much for Genesect at all, since the reason you use focus sash is to dodge a Fire punch OHKO from Deo-S.

Also, 4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 304-360 (107.4 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

In that case, why not use an Occa Berry?

 

[Nysyr]

the question is 'why would you waste your genesect like that?' gene is arguably the best pokemon in ou; nigh saccing it so you can bring deo-s down to its sash is honestly kinda silly.

It's not of you actually consider that doing so can entirely eliminate hazards for for team to deal with. It has more uses that solely doing that. Deo teams rely entirely on getting multi hazard layers to function, having just one hazard isn't the same.

 

[Jukain]

you can just murder it with smth like azu, or scizor's bullet punches. no need to waste gene. just use occa if fire punch is a big deal, as unowninator said.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Also, 4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 304-360 (107.4 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

Why is this relevant? No one said anything about using Assault Vest Genesect to take hits from Heatran. This is why you use Assault Vest Genesect:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 165-195 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 83-98 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.1% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 111-131 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Normally, Choice Specs Latios has a small shot at 2HKOing Genesect with two consecutive Draco Meteors, and Stealth Rock guarantees the KO. With the Assault Vest, Genesect can switch into Draco Meteor pretty easily and immediately put the opponent in a bad position with U-turn: they either lose their Latios or they switch out, something else takes some damage from U-turn, and they lose the momentum. That isn't the only example, either. Mega Alakazam can normally KO Genesect with Focus Blast followed by Shadow Ball, but with Assault Vest, Genesect is only 2HKOed by Focus Blast 27% of the time even after Stealth Rock (factoring in Focus Blast's accuracy, that is). Mega Gardevoir will normally almost always 2HKO Genesect with Hyper Voice with Stealth Rock down, but with Assault Vest, Genesect has a small chance to avoid even a 3HKO. Gengar needs a Life Orb just to have a measly 0.4% chance to 2HKO Assault Vest Genesect with Shadow Ball, whereas a Black Sludge variant would normally 2HKO 91.8% of the time if Genesect wasn't holding an Assault Vest. These are the sorts of Pokemon that Genesect pivots well against, and it does so because of its solid defensive typing, good Assault Vest-boosted special bulk, great coverage, and STAB U-turn. Even if it doesn't deserve a slash, don't knock it just because it can't take a Lava Plume from Heatran of all things.