Doubles Premier League: Tier Discussion

[Checkmater]

If we're going on about inclusion of tiers, why are we just leaving Doubles Ubers on the side, undiscussed? To say that it's worth developing or playing out is ridiculous: Look back at ORAS Doubles in its most infant stage. Compare it to now. If you flip back 1 or 2 pages on this forum you can already see the quick and drastic differences in builds and metagame from then and now, so to say Doubles Ubers will be unworthy of development is a flawed argument. I know no one's directly said that in this thread, but it's something that's been said in chat that I thought I should address on the table. It was also included in Fall Cup I think, so there's that.

Moving on, Doubles Ubers could exist as a compromise between inclusion of VGC but still keeping it doubles. Lots of mechanics of DUbers are likely to be foreign to DOU players such that VGC players, being familiar with said mechanics, will benefit. It'll still be 6v6 and involve a drastic difference enough from VGC that said VGC players wouldn't rather just literally play at some PC or some online tour rather than, as shake and Keith said, join some sub-forum tour that they're not invested in.

Frankly, I could easily see us doing either of (2xDOU / 2xBW / DUbers / DUU) or (3xDOU / BW / DUbers / DUU) which are permutations I think haven't really been discussed

Do we really need 3 DOU? I for one am not really looking forward to having MORE OU games when that's what literally all our tours...

In addition, while I can see us easily having 18 quality players for DOU, many of said players are going to be moving to some kind of other meta, from off the bat I can think of Stratos -> BW, Xzern -> Duu, AuraRayquaza -> BW, Possible VGC'ers / maybe KyleCole (doesn't he run that thread about DUbers) -> DUbers, etc. Will we really have enough for 18 dedicated, quality DOU players? I'm not so sure if that'll be the case or if it'll be entertaining.

If there's anything you think I didn't address or if you think DUbers is shit (I've certainly never played the meta) go ahead and tell me so.

 

[sforz]

I think it's completely silly to talk about too many DOU slots thinning out the good players and making it so the games are less quality. As long as there are 6 slots there would be just as many people playing, and subpar DOU players that play because of the multiple slots, will play subpar games in a different meta, most likely they're even less familiar with, whereas good BW players will adapt to DOU with ease. If non DOU mains end up wanting to play in DPL they'll be much more familiar to DOU because, well, at least you see one of those games once in a while on smogtours, but not so for BW DOU. Either way, if there will be an issue with player depth, changing a tier to a non DOU tier won't change the core problem at hand.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

As long as there are 6 slots there would be just as many people playing, and subpar DOU players that play because of the multiple slots, will play subpar games in a different meta, most likely they're even less familiar with, whereas good BW players will adapt to DOU with ease.

I disagree. I can tell you that I won't draft dou'er who doesn't do duu to play duu. I will draft someone who plays duu to play duu.

We definitely have 18 players good enough to be in this tour for dou.

I feel like there is a consensus that 3dou, 1bw, 1duu is a good mix that will keep this tour competitive but also offers 30 spots

I feel like my wildcard idea I posted previously is a good compromise to anyone asking for vgc and or Dubers

 

[Derivatives]

nobody acknowledging the wildcard idea=nobody likes it

 

[Biosci]

Wildcard is a bad path, do not go down that path.

To me, it seems pretty simple to run with just 4 DOU slots / 1 BW / 1 DUU or DUbers(DUU seems more popular so I'd go with that). Having 2 slots for BW just seems weird considering most of your userbase hasn't even touched the format and most of the ones who have quit, but it still deserves some representation here with the 1 slot. DUU seems like it actually has a good following so that feels like a safer choice to me here.

I like the notion you guys are trying to pull with having VGC/DUbers in to try to get more vgc players, but you should honestly just stick to what's more popular for this forum itself. I'd much rather see a doubles tournament actually run what the users actually play. From what I'm reading in this thread, most people feel this way too. If vgc players wanna play, they'll play what you have to offer. Simple as that.

Looking forward to this

 

[Checkmater]

yo what if we made one of the tiers of dpl dou except with mega mence
that could be cool right?
or skymin?

that one day where ladder was bugged and you could use mega mence was a lot of fun

 

[n10siT]

To me, it seems pretty simple to run with just 4 DOU slots / 1 BW / 1 DUU or DUbers(DUU seems more popular so I'd go with that). Having 2 slots for BW just seems weird considering most of your userbase hasn't even touched the format and most of the ones who have quit, but it still deserves some representation here with the 1 slot. DUU seems like it actually has a good following so that feels like a safer choice to me here.

This is my preference as well but I feel like the 3 dou/2 bw is the best compromise we are going to get with the older group of players while keeping DUU in the mix.

 

[Mizuhime]

I dig the 4 oras, 1 bw, and 1 ubers thing. Personally I would put vgc16 in over ubers but that's just me. I guess it will probably end up being uu in the last slot anyways so that doesn't really matter

 

[talkingtree]

I realize that I basically already said this but now I'm actually solid in my opinion so screw it I'm making another post.

3 ORAS DOU / 1 BW DOU / 1 ORAS DUU / 1 ORAS DUbers

3 DOU seems like a good number, that's 18 total or basically top 16 of a seasonal which seems to be still a fairly solid group without taking too much away from the most major meta in the tour. BW obviously should be included, but for the reasons stated by many people before me, 2 feels like too much and would give a fairly large advantage to the more senior managers that could train their players in BW and play it themselves. UU is, aside from those two, the most relevant meta left and I actually really enjoy it and feel that it deserves a spot but no way it deserves two because it's not exactly explored yet. DUbers should be included for the reason Arctic just said in the chat: "[23:40] #Arcticblast: just because it is fun as hell to watch shit like Primal Groudon and Xerneas duke it out". DUbers battles may not be the absolute most competitive, but they're a lot of fun, and it could be nice to find out what the tier has to offer, and potentially get some people playing the meta so that the ladder isn't quite so cringeworthy.

Also, m3-0moric agrees with me so I have to be right.

 

[Hashtag]

the problem is that there is no shortage of people who want dubers to be included but a big shortage of people who actually want to play it

 

[n10siT]

the problem is that there is no shortage of people who want dubers to be included but a big shortage of people who actually want to play it

i'd love to play it, as would thetalkingtree, Yellow Paint, CorruptedOmega7, Lana Del Seldo, and I know people like Nido-Rus have played it some. The list of people who actively play Dubers compared to those who actively play DUU is only slightly smaller, and besides, it wouldn't be that hard for a strong DOU player to pick up the metagame.

 

[kamikaze]

i'd love to play it, as would thetalkingtree, Yellow Paint, CorruptedOmega7, Lana Del Seldo, and I know people like Nido-Rus have played it some. The list of people who actively play Dubers compared to those who actively play DUU is only slightly smaller, and besides, it wouldn't be that hard for a strong DOU player to pick up the metagame.

The issue here is intersection with other tiers like if we were to include both DUU and DUbers. Disregarding the fact that a few of you would be good DOU picks to round out 18 if we do 3x DOU, people like talkingtree and yellow paint may also be picks for DUU which already has a limited selection of players. Also for the people using Kyle Cole as part of the pool to justify any tier selection (I know you didn't say it n10sit), the issue is that he is one person and can only play one of DOU, DUU, or DUbers at a time (and he may not even want to play DUbers as far as I know even though he runs the thread). I really think the intersection and low player count will hurt DUU and DUbers to be in DPL together at the same time unless we can muster up names that wouldn't conflict too much.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

DUbers is the easiest Doubles metagame to pick up since it is so centralized around tier 1 mons like Groudon and Xerneas. n10sit already mentioned six people, and that number could easily grow depending on an individual team's needs. One week you could have player x in DOU, the next in DUbers, and the next in DUU. It's not so cut and dry that managers draft three specific players to play ORAS, one to play BW, and the other two to play DUU and DUbers. They keep this in mind, of course, but managers can move their players around as they see fit so conflict doesn't occur.

 

[Derivatives]

I diss dubers a lot but I am really willing to play anything but duu
I'm actually pretty solid in dubers
Yeah this is my only way of drafting myself

 

[ryo yamada2001]

reason to not add ubers:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/fall-cup-won-by-yellow-paint.3553270/#post-6482495
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/fall-cup-won-by-yellow-paint.3553270/#post-6482575
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/fall-cup-won-by-yellow-paint.3553270/#post-6482619
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/fall-cup-won-by-yellow-paint.3553270/#post-6482643

 

[Hashtag]

think i gotta go with 4x dou 1x bw 1x duu.

send all hatemail to my vm wall

i would have liked to do another bw but it just doesnt make sense with the player pool we are gonna have.

also could have been cool to have a vgc ('14 is noteworthy) but honestly i just agree with stratos that it doesnt do much to link the communities, and if we want vgc people to play smogon doubles, they just have to play smogon doubles

i would say that i would have liked to include dubers but that would be a lie.