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Imo take sign ups and we will have better idea if we need 2 bw.
I don't feel like it will generate enough players to be "premier" in that meta
We will see if 3 is good for dou as well
having 2 BW gives an enormous advantage to teams whos managers play BW given that almost no one else has experience in it. You'd be lucky to get 1 person who had played BW in the last year and drafting 2 is pretty much impossible.
Had to make one last effort to even the playing field :( wont post anymore on it dw.
yeah I am pretty clueless when it comes to drafting for BW. no one fucking plays it!
and if they do they play seldom with small group of people. its not like I have any evidence to determine whose going to be good at bw
I feel like players that have been around a while who will sign up for both bw and dou will be my bw players even though they will likely be good at dou too
and I hear your guys point that is so fun and bringing it back to introduce it to new players will be neat. OK, then do a BW mini-tour after this is over and leave DPL to DOU and DUU (yes people play DUU). It seems like we will have bw because some of you guys are so adamant about it but please not 2 slots, it just doesnt make sense
fine i guess, id rather have multiple ppl in bw so i can test in the meta w/ someone on my team but whatever most ppl are ok with. 4 dou is a decent choice as well
4 DOUs seems like it'd make matchups collapse into "oh which teams had their good players matched up against the other team's sub-par players". Obviously I can't speak much about this since I don't intend to play DOU, but I think the quality of games gets diluted rapidly as more and more are added. XY Prebank please?
dou dou dou duu bw and maybe some dou om , as long as we dont have a vgc tier, cause i already dont like people mixing the two, and this would just be a huge encouragement
Ok lets get this out of the way. For those of you complaining about me delaying this decision, fricken get over it. I understand people waited over a year for this, but that's all the more the reason why you all should not be rushing the tier discussion by not even letting it stay active for barely over a day. Lets get this done right and properly let people chip in discussion and evaluate consequences. There is no need to be hasty here so lets all keep a level head so we can make this event, that everyone has been waiting for, a good one. Hashtag is free to post the final chosen tiers at the end of this weekend, so we have time to actually talk more. Apparently people are already second guessing their noms, so its a good thing I delayed it.
First thing I was gonna address is the 2 BW situation which frankly I was surprised people were pushing for without thinking of the consequences thoroughly. Amassing the player slots would be difficult, especially without overly weakening the DOU slots and even then getting 12 players would be rough. Looks like you guys already addressed it so I dont need to say too much more.
As for the whole 4 DOU slot suggestion that people are contemplating, I am not a fan of that for the same reasons Level 51 mentioned. I am ok with the premise that we can give some players a chance to prove themselves and get the spotlight by having more DOU slots, but the quality of the games is something of a concern as 4 feels like a little much. I firmly believe that our main focus should be to showcase quality games and not spread our talent way too thin where the likelihood of that is lowered significantly.
Dubs UU gets a lot of flack but I am ok with giving it a shot and maybe helping the meta develop more as a result of DPL, considering that there is a small but existent playerbase of people interested in playing it. Looks like I dont need to say much more about that since most people seem to be ok with having it.
Right now I am at: 3x DOU, 1x BW, 1x DUU (5 formats)
As was previously stated by multiple people, we probably want 6 formats so we have ties during each round. Having played in SPL and experiencing this first hand with my team, I stand by that ties definitely maintain competitiveness of the league throughout the entire season as opposed to running an off number of formats.
"[03:24:12] @Memoric: tbh 3 DOUs / 1 BW / DUU / x
[03:24:14] +DragonWhale: I think the question is
[03:24:15] @Memoric: is decent already
[03:24:20] %n10sit: agreed memoric
[03:24:24] %n10sit: i just figured
[03:24:28] %n10sit: 3 dou/2 bw/1 duu
[03:24:33] %n10sit: is the best compromise
[03:24:37] %n10sit: we are going to get" - some discussion in PS room while I was there earlier
I think most of us can get behind what memoric said but just need to properly evaluate the "x". I dont agree with n10sit's suggestion because obviously the 2 BW issue was addressed above, but it also brings up the issue of spreading ourselves too thin in terms of talent, so getting quality games and matchups may be an issue if we add the x to any of our current listed tiers. Since the issue is talent being spread too thin, it may be worth considering the addition of a format that does not intersect too much with the player pool we would have under the current formats.
Yes I am suggesting we add a VGC format to DPL. This is something I was approached about in the months leading up to DPL, and I dont think it was properly represented and argued for enough in that 1 day the thread discussion was initially active for. The decision to not consider VGC mainly based on Stratos post isnt something I agree with either. Why VGC?
1. As previously stated they have a huge playerbase that doesnt intersect with other DPL tier slots. Also the players are actually experienced in the format so I expect interesting quality games to happen.
2. We have the privilege of having the official event format from the Pokemon Company be a Doubles format, unlike the other forum PL's, so why not showcase it in 1 slot. This tournament is now the Doubles Premier League, not Smogon Doubles Premier League, so we dont need to keep holding ourselves back from expanding beyond just Smogon exclusive formats when there is a legitimate cases for expansion.
3. 4 different formats would be played as opposed to just 3. I feel like 3 was too little honestly and showcasing a variety of pokemon and strategies across multiple formats is a lot more interesting for both a player and spectator
4. Even amongst the DOU playerbase there is a fair number of people who actually play VGC formats, so testing and discussion is actually feasible if it is even needed.
5. Ever since I became Tier Leader, one thing I hoped to do was to amend the relationship between the Doubles and VGC communities by interacting with both on their respective fronts. A lot of VGC players have various reasons for why they dont play Doubles, but most of the reasons boiled down to one concept. They didnt feel welcome. There are people who throw jabs and disrespectful remarks towards VGC players who attempt to play DOU in some battle chats and also on the forums such as in SPL discussion threads. I have warned people about this and told them to lay off time and time again, so we dont generate needless misunderstandings and baseless hate, but I am just one person trying to change the community here. I think including a VGC slot is a good initial step in the right direction to remedy this. Getting both communities involved and working together is something I would like to see, which could potentially grow our playerbase in the long-run.
Addressing concerns:
Stratos statement: "i agree lolk, i love seeing how vgc players played DOU in SPL and sam's seasonal teams versus me were cool too. Emphasis on played DOU. if i want to see VGCers play VGC i can watch a regional stream. Let's keep the DOU-based formats for DPL. Otherwise each team will just draft a VGCer and then not interact w/ them and they play once a week and nobody cares".
- The issue with this boils down to what I said earlier, that a lot of them simply dont feel welcome and its statements like this that dont help the case one bit. People like SamVGC and Dawgie are notable exceptions as they have stuck around for a good while, but a lot of other players genuinely feel shut out.
- I think we can fix this as a community and this also is something captains should keep in mind as well. On the Cryo's in SPL this year, as a doubles player it felt kind of weird to be unable to help my teammates much with the other Single tiers and my record also being anything but satisfactory, but I still felt welcome and stuck by my team since my teammates and managers were really supportive and chill. Basically it doesnt matter who they are. Try to create a good team environment, respect your teammates, and be positive and maybe people will care more.
- Just like Stratos, I actually do want to see more VGC players pick up DOU and heck I even expect some to play in DOU slots in this DPL even if VGC is added to the mix, but I still think adding VGC to DPL is the way to go to increase the overall player pool and potentially open up the playerbase for the future.
VGC Format nominations (Pick 1 of the below depending on discussion. Format will be Bo3 Teamlock instead of Best of 1, as that brings the best out of the VGC format)
1. VGC 2016: This is the current VGC format that is being used at live events and will be in play for the rest of the year.
- The Pokemon pool in this format differs wildly from the other formats that were nommed which would have more visible mon diversity between the distinct metagames in DPL.
- Issues with this include that a good number of VGC players dont like this format, but I still feel some may come out to play regardless.
- One thing I thought about putting on the table which potentially is treading into dangerous waters is including VGC 2016 with a Dark Void Ban as a format. The potential incentive for introducing this modded format is that a lot of people have discussed if the metagame would be much better with a Dark Void Ban, but this would create a competitive environment for people to actually field test and play under instead of simply arguing the theory on forums and twitter. There is obviously a concern with this in regards to "format tampering" which isnt generally well received in VGC, so this isnt something I would like to do without a good number of support but I thought it would be worth throwing onto the table for discussion. This is not unheard of, as some Japanese grass root tournaments have ran VGC 2016 ruleset minus Dark Void.
2. BattleSpot Doubles aka VGC 2015: This was the VGC format from last year, which is still fresh in people's memory and is currently known as BattleSpot Doubles.
- Unlike VGC 2016, there is a lot more positive feelings toward this format amongst the VGC playerbase.
- Some concerns people may have is "It is too similar to DOU". While it is similar to DOU in terms of mon pool, a lot of the DOU exclusive tutors, event and legend mons, and 6v6 vs 4v4 nature really set them apart from one another and make the formats play completely differently.
- This can also be a sort of escape for any VGC player wanting to play an old format if they really want a break from 2016, so I dont doubt we will get participation.
My DPL Lineup picks: 3x DOU / 1x BW / 1x DUU / 1x (VGC 2016 Bo3 or BattleSpot Doubles Bo3)
I would like to get people's thoughts on this and have discussion going but I may not have the ability to properly respond to arguments before the final decision is made at the end of the weekend, due to shaky internet access where I am currently. Regardless, I am hoping I am not the only one who shares these thoughts and that it is put under serious consideration instead of getting shafted by baseless hate prior in the thread.
Either way, no matter what the the final decision is, it feels much better to actually have the chance to make a case rather than none at all.
first, im not sure how serious your semantic argument from the name of the tournament is, but the fact that its included at all kinda makes me mad. No committee decided to name the tournament this. the name holds no weight. It was changed by Hashtag and if I had to guess I'd say it's because DPL is shorter to write. If Hashtag had chosen the name SDPL, would it invalidate your arguments? no. so the inverse is equally untrue, the name DPL doesn't validate your arguments. Let's stick to legitimate points itt please.
One of the main thrusts of your argument seems to be that having six non-VGC slots will decrease the quality of games. With all due respect to the members of this community, if we only want peak quality games, we should limit it to three slots maximum, all DOU. Me playing BW is certainly not because I think I'm better at BW than XY. It's because I like BW and want to play the meta. Hell, n1n1 is a manager. If we were prioritizing peak quality games, I think it goes without saying that that would not have happened. That's not to say that quality games means nothing, but it's not our main objective.
In my opinion, the main draw of most team tournaments is (ive already said this) for people to work together and build together, for stronger players to teach weaker players, and of course to get excited and have fun and hope your team wins. Ive already told certain people in PM that I want a team that works together more than a team that wins. A lot of forum PLs basically turn into people playing their game, then looking at the thread like once a week to see if their team won or lost and not really caring. Hell, this includes the first DPL. That's why I was so against having another DPL, but now that we're having one, I can say for almost certain that including VGC in it would be counterproductive toward the goal of getting the teams to work together and actually care.
For one, most people in the DOU community don't care at all about VGC. If we draft people who would have played DOU anyways like Biosci, Bowman, Dawg, Sam and put them in a VGC slot all you're doing is reducing the number of people who can help them build/test and will be engaged in their game from "all of them" to "one or two."
For two, there is literally no reason to care about DPL except if you are invested in the DOU community. Even with invested players motivation is always shaky. If you want to bring in VGCers who don't care about DOU community otherwise and stick them on a team with people who for the most part dont care about VGC either I guarantee there will be almost no motivation for any of them and they'll just phone in a battle once a week without being integrated. I don't care what people say, I've been in enough subforum PLs to know that people who are eager to meet new friends on week 1 are drifting away by week 3.
I'm all for having a good relationship between the communities, but trying to rope in new VGCers to our community by putting VGC in DPL is just foolish. You know the relationship cliche "how you get em is how you keep em?" It's equally true for anything. We know that in the end, we "keep" players in this community with DOU. So working backwards from that, the only way to "get" players we're going to "keep" is with DOU. For the record, I don't really notice animosity between our communities anyway, except right before SPL signups, which is because we want our friends to be able to play in SPL and not because we hate VGCers. Only long-standing rift between our communities is me vs makiri and that's because he's a cunt.
I haven't done a line-item refutation of your post but I think I've hit all the major points. To reiterate, my preferred formats are (in this order) 3 DOU 2 BW 1 DUU, 4 DOU 1 BW 1 UU, 6 DOU. I don't think the playerbase issues are as bad with BW as some think they are and I'd like to have some weight on the format so we can get some energy around the format and testing teams in it with the guys on my team while I'm not too interested in DOU lately, but I understand if others are apprehensive about that and would prefer another DOU slot instead. You really can't go wrong with more DOU slots.
having 2 BW gives an enormous advantage to teams whos managers play BW given that almost no one else has experience in it. You'd be lucky to get 1 person who had played BW in the last year and drafting 2 is pretty much impossible.
While I can get the idea of not wanting to give teams an advantage, BW Doubles isn't even that hard of a metagame to learn. Sure, maybe it lacks Megas and Gems can be a bit confusing, but in reality its still just a pretty normal Doubles metagame. It's not like LC Doubles or Doubles Ubers where the threats are completely different, many popular picks in ORAS Doubles were also popular back then (for example Heatran, Landorus-T, Amoonguss, and Thundurus). Additionally, there are many players around who played during BW, and they could assist some of the newer players in learning the metagame. This said, I'm not really against 1 slot for BW Doubles, but I feel like this is a bit of an exaggeration.
I am definitely against 4 DOU slots for the same reason Level 51 is. I don't get how focusing on one format so much for DPL is a good idea; the point of having a Doubles-focused premier league is that some of the less notable, but still quite good Doubles formats get a chance for high-level competition.
I also fully support the inclusion of a VGC format (the current one or VGC '14 would be what I personally would suggest). I have personally always regarding the VGC community highly, and never really supported the way the Doubles community tends to feel a need to shut them out (this is how it has appeared to me, but I fully understand if many people do not agree with this statement). I have heard concerns about VGC players being picked over SmogDubs players, I personally have great respect for how different communities (or regions as well) adapt different styles of play. It creates a unique dynamic where different ideas come together and clash, and to me it is a thing of beauty. I agree with kamikaze17 in that we should be more inclusive to players for other Doubles formats, it really just helps a metagame grow and we should be promoting a friendly environment. My personal experience with this was as the community really started growing slightly after XY came along, and I can recall many instances where players would bash me and be quite rude (this is one of many reasons I felt like I needed a break). I get the sense this is improving, but imo it is a big issue that I feel many people opt to ignore or simply aren't aware of. While its clearly going to be a fact that more players means more players that aren't respectful to eachother, I really feel our more recognized players need to set an example for newer players to follow. Granted this is my personal opinion and a tad off topic at this point, so I will probably get more on-topic.
3 Doubles OU, 1 VGC format, 1 BW Doubles, and 1 Doubles Ubers slot seems ideal to me, though I would like to know people's thought on Doubles UU versus Doubles Ubers, because I feel those are basically the two candidates we will likely pick from when it comes to that last slot. If we were to use 2 BW Doubles slots, I would probably just take out that last slot for it, which results in 3 Doubles OU, 1 VGC, and 2 BW Doubles slots. Either of these lineups seems most logical to me.
Even if there aren't enough solid BW players for us to have 2 slots of BW per team that are competing on a peak level, having two slots would allow for more people to learn the tier and open it up to a bigger player base. This doesn't work as well for DUU because the number of really good DUU players is not enough to have at least one player on a team who can teach a player who is newer the tier.
I feel that 2x BW is the best way to go as it keeps a reasonable number of DOU slots (3) and still provides variety in the meta games played. Having played a good number of BW games in the past few days, I honestly don't feel as though the jump from ORAS to BW is that big that someone couldn't learn it and play it well within a reasonable amount of time. Judging from the recent jump in excitement for BW (I've seen tons of people playing it on PS, or at least discussing it) there would be plenty of people who would enjoy seeing 2 BW matches per week.
Personally I don't think that a VGC slot is the best way to go, just my opinion.
they revived a BW thread that was dead for a year just now. No mini BW tours have happened recently
we dont need to start pushing for BW revival in DPL - thats not what this is about
I've said it before; for all those people all of a sudden promoting BW. do a mini tour after DPL.
people actually discuss DUU and play it
I really dont want to see 2 BW. As manager I will have no idea who to pick - theres literally nothing for me to go off of
I'm not going to act like I play Doubles, but as someone who hosts another Premier League and is an SPL manager, I figure I might as well provide my thoughts on this...and I think I won this tourney last year? Idr. Anyway, from what I have gathered from this thread, my preferred format would be 3 DOU / 2 BW / 1 DUU. I think having 3 of the main metagame is enough in terms of representation, especially because it is already covered in pretty much every Doubles tournament anyway. Having four of them seems to be a bit much, especially because one of the points of these tier-specific Premier Leagues is to revive dead metagames. Therefore, I think 3 is definitely enough slots for the main tier.
Now, we move on to UU. I legitimately was barely aware this tier existed, but I feel that it should definitely be included in order to expand the playerbase of this tournament. From what I have gathered from this thread, one slot is probably enough. In terms of the number of BW slots in this tournament, I think two is a very healthy amount. This used to be the main Doubles metagame, and I think it is definitely reasonable to include 2 slots in this Premier League. As I mentioned already, reviving dead metagames is a cool part of these Premier Leagues. As a manager, knowing who to draft is inherently part of the skillset you need for this tournament. I'm sure you can find some way to figure out who is good at a metagame; this literally used to be the metagame of the tier, and choosing to exclude this tier from the tournament simply because some individuals lack the ability to scout good players in the tier is ludicrous. Some people have been attempting to make the argument that removing BW allows the playing field to be evened; this is inherently false in any tournament, because some managers are simply better at drafting and more knowledgeable than others. If some managers can provide their teammates with BW Doubles teams, then that is an advantage they should be allowed to have; other managers who specialize in the current metagame may be able to provide higher quality teams than their fellow managers, which is also fair. Knowing who is good in certain metagames is one of the key skills you need to manage, and I don't think that shafting an entire generation of Doubles is the way to address one's personal problems.
In terms of VGC, I genuinely doubt that many VGC players are going to join this tournament and take it extremely seriously. I might be wrong about that, but at the end of the day, this tournament is nowhere near as relevant as SPL. In addition, even if they do sign up, it's not like they're going to feel more integrated in the community and participate more in it just because they were given the luxury of playing their main tier in a sub-forum Premier League. After this tournament is over, they will just go back to their own community; I fail to see how putting VGC in this tournament is going to help long-term in connecting the communities. Because of all of these reasons, I feel that the best possible format is 3 DOU / 2 BW / 1 DUU.
I've been thinking about the inclusion of a VGC format for some time now and after reading some of the posts here I thought I may as well chip in (being somewhat a VGC player).
I personally agree with Stratos based on his arguments about the quality of games and the fact that there is a really strong chance that inclusion of VGC will be "counterproductive toward the goal of getting the teams to work together and actually care". The only way for VGC'ers to really care about this tournament in my opinion is for them to be integrated with the community, so if you get the few 'VGC'ers' that are integrated in this community to play a VGC format over DOU, you are in a way reducing the number of people to help them build/test and be engaged in games. Also lets face it, the probability of VGC players who aren't integrated with DOU sticking around by playing in this tour is pretty low and so the whole idea of 'connecting communities' isn't really the best argument. As I take it, the main point of this whole tour is to integrate the community more and have fun, which I don't really think is what will be achieved by adding a VGC format into the mix. It honestly just doesn't feel right which is why I think 2x BW and 4x DOU are much better options.
If we are to add a VGC format though please don't make it VGC 16. VGC 16 is actually ass and although people like it, I don't personally think it's the greatest thing ever and really don't think it'd be good for this tour. You either love it, hate it or love it and hate it imo so yeah please no VGC 16. If a VGC format is introduced, I think VGC 15 or VGC 14 (I really like VGC 14 :]) are the best options because they're not VGC 16 and VGC 13 seems too far back for me to even remember a lot about it.
why are we doing this this then sign ups? kamikaze17
if we start taking sign ups we can get an idea of the amount of people actually willing to participate in these tiers.
then adjust the amount of each to make sure we dont water down the tour
why are we doing this this then sign ups? kamikaze17
if we start taking sign ups we can get an idea of the amount of people actually willing to participate in these tiers.
then adjust the amount of each to make sure we dont water down the tour
I havnt had much thought changes from my last post, kinda normal since it's relatively recent, but after reading the two huge posts by kamikaze and stratos, i am still leaning to not having a vgc format. i get kamikaze's attempts to improve the communities interactions, but i don't agree with the including vgc being a valid way. playerbase interactions won't really be established for mostly the reason stratos pointed out, which is the fact that the vgc slot would most likely be filled by a vgc player who would have played dou anyways, and would just have been "imported" to play vgc. of course this isnt to put vgc players as outsiders or to be hostile towards them, or the format even, but i am with separation of the two tiers, or differentiation if you'd like, as to me our tier leader's attempt is somewhat of a merge, to me not the right way to establish good links. i think vgc and dou communities could have opportunities to do this in other ways. and again, this is not to segregate between the two communities, but rather the two formats, since i see difference as a good thing, not source of conflict.
regarding the 4xdou issue, i didnt mind it since it does have the largest player base out of the tiers mentioned the most in the thread, and i do not really think we'd be betting on matches "losing quality". like sure some players are better or more experienced than others, but we all love the tier, and match ups arent supposed to be "predetermined", even when a player has a better record, reputation or such. i feel using the "unfair match up" reason a bit of a way to undermine players, or to say some matches would be settled before they begin, which im very much against, despite that i do retain in mind that some players are indeed more skilled thus more likely to win, but nothing's impossible, and an "underdog" winning isnt an extinct phenomenon. ideally, if the draft goes well, there shouldnt be too much of a match up problem either, or a too big of a gap in one, if managers prepare thoroughly.
for what involves bw, i personally joined dou somewhat recently, so do not have much bw experience, appa-rently like many others since the player base seems rare. it kinda seems like forcing the tier, even if i see few people defending it. xy doubles seems a bit better to me now, since it's more recent so should be easier to relate to for those who havnt known the bw meta. then again, it would not hurt to have such a wildcard tier, so i wouldnt be too dissapointed if it came as one, especially since some are willing to play
