Doubles Premier League: Tier Discussion

Platinum God n1n1

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DUU - Yes, DUU is not nearly as empty or "unexplored" as people seem to think. I played DUU last year and had a lot of fun, and the tournament doesn't "suffer" at all by having it. If you look at the DUU thread you'll see that there are certainly more than 6 people interested in playing the tier who have a good amount of experience in it
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Qft

I hope we can have 2 per team. Not having it at all would be huge mistake.
I think we could get more activity and mini tours in the future for duu. It's the future of doubles. And dpl may encourage some people who have been reluctant to start playing it more often
 
2 Doubles OU slots with one for Dubs UU, Dubs Ubers, and B2W2 Doubles sounds pretty good to me.

I would enjoy having ORAS Doubles LC, but I find it understandable why we wouldn't use it as a format. A VGC 201X format would also be fine. If we were to replace something in the default lineup, it definitely would be Dubs UU.
 
DOU / DOU / DOU / DUU / BW / VGC14

I agree with no mono
Monotype formats as a whole are inherently non-competitive, and in turn much less fun, which is the opposite of what's desired in this tournament. It's awkward to build, and ridiculously match-up based even outside of direct type CTs.

I don't think that there'd be a small amount of interest from VGC players in playing, especially with a meta considered to be the favorite of quite a few VGC players. VGC16 teams are unfortunately far too similar, due to there being such a small amount of viable pokemon, or Restricted mons generally always being a better option than non-restricted, for obvious reasons.

Also RIP Doubles LC, we all stopped playing. It was definitely awkward to build for though, so I don't know about it being worth a place in DPL anyway.
 
I'd really like there to be 2 bw slots. there are definitely enough competent players, old and new, that skill wouldn't be an issue at all. it's completely different to gen 6 and imo, way more fun than oras.

having though about it a bit, I feel oras oras oras bw bw xy/duu would be the best choice
 
Imagine how boring it would be for the one DUU player on every team. It's not like most teammates would be actively trying to learn and understand the meta, aside from maybe one or two test matches. At least if we have two BW slots, they will both always be focused on the meta.

edit: Ya tru "Remember how boring it was..."
 

Checkmater

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It'd be hella fun to have random doubles as a tier that shit is fun make it happen
 

talkingtree

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Just going to post my thoughts on all the different possible tiers people have suggested, mostly to organize them because at this point even I don't really know what I want. Also, ties are a necessity please make it six tiers thanks.

DOU: Well duh. At least 2, obviously, and I'd actually probably advocate for only 2 per week - in this case of 3, after 18 people have been slated for DOU, that's either going to leave the third game per week being not as high quality as the other two or the remainder of the tiers being practically side attractions. Keeping it at 2 leaves plenty of space for the talent to be spread out more effectively.

BW: I haven't had a ton of experience in BW, but what I have played in Fall Cup or occasional fun matches was hella fun. Plus, this would be a good spot for older players just now returning since they wouldn't have to learn a new meta, just get back into one they were already decent at. 2 slots would be my personal preference, but I could understand leaving it at one.

DUU: As one of the more experienced DUU players who is still very involved in the DOU community right now, I can advocate for this meta being a great option to include in DPL. The recent drops have made the meta quite balanced, and there's room for a lot of innovation and discovery, potentially getting more people into the meta. No way this deserves more than one slot though.

DUbers: This meta is kind of a wreck tbh. It's so setup based that games can frequently be over turn 1 or 2, which isn't very fun to watch. However, there's a case to be made for new adaptations that can be found in a higher-competition setting such as DPL (at least in comparison to the ladder), and I've seen a few players such as n10sit and Yellow Paint do pretty cool things with it. I worry a little bit about getting enough variety so that it doesn't feel like the same games are being played each week, but I could be persuaded into being in favor of this.

VGC16/15/14: Including a VGC format seems to be against the spirit of *Smogon Doubles* Premiere League, but I can't ignore the fact that there are many experienced players who would be able to make these games consistently high-quality matches.

Mono: MPL is still going on and has included Mono Dubs, I don't feel like this is a meta that needs to be represented twice. While it is interesting, it's just not a relevant enough meta with a large enough player base to bother including it.

DPPt DOU: The few games that I've played have been actually really fun, to the point where I'm considering taking up DPP OU for its mechanics of no team preview. There's plenty of room for exploration and it seems to be an inherently balanced tier, which is great. Since this is only available in Custom Games and has basically no exploration, I don't feel like it's ready to be included yet. Possibly next year, but including it this year seems too hasty.

Rand Dubs: Waaaay too matchup based to be considered competitive at all, and while Audio did a great job getting it set up, there are still plenty of movesets etc. that make some mons more detrimental than helpful to have on your team.

LC: Has anyone actually played this? I don't know if I've ever seen or heard of an LC Doubles game, but seeing as those are the two tiers in which I have the most experience, I'd certainly be interested to try it out.

AAA / STABmons / PiC etc: Basically in the same boat as Mono, except they have an even smaller player base and would have to be done in Custom Games. Including anything form of Doubles versions of OMs probably won't go well.

One more meta that I'd like to bring up simply for discussion is 2v2, probably in a bo3 format. I doubt it would be worth consider because I'm not sure how explored it is, but there's a ladder for it and it was metagame of the month once so I figured it was worth bringing up in case anyone had experience in it or could vouch for its inclusion.

Wildcard: I'm actually not against this idea as much as everyone else seems to be - it would be a decent way to include some of the lesser-known metas without having to drag them on for far more weeks than they deserve. DPP / DUbers / LC / Mono / STABmons / 2v2 could all be decent possibilities for a wildcard tier.

EDIT: Lol I forgot XY. This could actually make sense over the second BW slot, as other people are saying. I've never played it though, so I can't make an informed opinion.

I've managed to say a lot without actually saying much of anything at all or be helpful in any way, shape, or form; but I hope you got more out of this post than I did. Gun to my head if I had to pick tiers now, I'd say DOU / DOU / BW / BW / DUU / DUbers or Wildcard.
 
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DOU (x3)
BW DOU(x1)
VGC '1X (x2) or VGC '1X (x1)+VGC '1Y (x1)

Having an OM like DUU or Dubers just seems a bit weird, especially considering their respective meta games. DUU has been for a long time considered a trick room war of a meta game, and even with additions such as zard x and metagross-m and the loss of mawile and camel a long time ago, it's a bit hard to justify it being anything but trick room. As for Dubers, it's literally the superbunnies tier.
BW is a classic and something that people really seem intrigued by, but u cant just have 2+ of a meta game that not a lot of people play.
The VGC slots could go either way, but I feel that it should either be vgc '15 x2 or vgc '15+vgc '13
 

n10siT

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DOU / DOU / DOU / DUU / BW / BW

This seems like the best format. My concerns with the above format:
  • Do we really have enough talent for a 3rd DOU slot?
  • Do we really have enough talent for a 2nd BW slot?
  • This is an incredibly stale slate of meta games compared to some other premier leagues
On XY doubles: no. Not enough is different. This is a stupid idea. You're just trying to create a metagame that doesn't really exist.

On doubles ubers: I'm personally a fan of this metagame. At the top of the ladder (which I've topped) you can get some decent matches. This meta isn't as bad as people think it is, it has just had bad exposure. I would like to see it replace the 2nd BW slot.

On anything else: I think it would be cool to see some other metas represented, but when I compare them to straight up doubles ou, I can't convince myself they deserve to replace the 3rd slot. I think it may be a good idea to let some users play in DPL to get some recognition in that 3rd slot. We could also make it the "gimmick slot", or something fun.
 
On XY doubles: no. Not enough is different. This is a stupid idea. You're just trying to create a metagame that doesn't really exist.
Of course XY exists we played it for a year :s Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, and Mega Manectric were all (to varying degrees) somewhat popular picks at the time. Xy is hugely different from ORAS

Also having a 2nd BW slot is dumb, you really think 12 people play this throughout the year? And play it well enough to justify completely dropping something else?? I agree with n10 that Dubers (or XY imo) should replace 2nd BW.
 
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Bughouse

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First, go with an even number. Ties are good.

whatever you do, don't do something like pre-bank XY or something. Tours try this sometimes, ie BW2 NU and BW1 NU both in NUPL. Inevitably, it's full of people accidentally using illegal teams. Personally I'd even be opposed to regular old end-of-XY dubs, but meh that's at least doable if you must.

I do like a lot of the "silly" metas like Dubs LC and ADV dubs etc, but they just don't really merit inclusion. However, do include Dubs UU. It was done well last time and people brought some cool stuff. Do include Dubs Ubers (or VGC, which is quite similar in terms of mons available in the new meta and definitely has more metagame knowledge available since few play DUbers). Plus, it's always fun to see OP mons getting used.

So I guess that means I would go with:

ORAS DOU
ORAS DOU
ORAS DOU
BW DOU
ORAS DUU
ORAS DUbers / VGC

This gives half standard ORAS and half "other metas," aka similar to how World Cup structured their shit last time (5 ORAS and 1 each for previous gen OU), which I think was pretty well liked as a balance of current meta and diversity.
 

Stratos

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heres my argument for 2x bw: this is a team tournament, so it makes sense to play as a team. we know a lot of the old players with a lot of experience are going to be playing BW. itd be cool for an older user to work with a newer user and build/practice BW together. this is cool not only to teach the newer user but also because i think BW is pretty woefully underdeveloped atm (keldeo was C on our viability rankings when XY came out cuz we were all bad) so itd be neat to have ppl actually working together on it as opposed to last DPL where i basically just used audiosurfers team from 2013 (which isnt even that great really) and won a lot cuz nobody else build good shit either. if we did dubers nobody else would want to touch that meta with a 10 foot pole cuz its ghey so it wouldnt really be a team working on dubers.

why doesnt argument work for uu: the experienced player mentoring the newer player in bw would be like me or arcticblast, in uu it would be like n10sit and big danny mason, enough said, also i dont give enough of a shit about developing uu since next month its just gonna have hydreigon in it or something else stupid

why doesnt this argument work for just doing 6x ou: it totally does. thats how wcop used to be and it was fine and they only changed it cuz of all the big babies bitching that they didnt like ou / didnt get to play because theyre some crusty fart who only knows 2007 metagames but they wanted to play. SPL uses a bunch of different tiers to draw together all the different communities on smogon but theres only one community playing in DPL so if we wanted to do 6x dou id be super fine with that. but dont take away BW because BW is sick AF so no, fuck you, let's do 2x BW
 
The lineup i'm going with is 3x DOU, 2x BW, and 1x DUU.

There wasn't enough interest in playing dubers here and most of the other metas are either too unexplored, or in the case of xy, not really different enough. Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread, you were all a big help to me in deciding which tiers to include.

edit: vgc wasnt picked for reasons stated in my other post
 
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kami says: discussion should be open for a week. my decisions are not final so you guys can still post to try to convince me, but that is what im leaning towards now.
 

Platinum God n1n1

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Hi. I still think wildcard is a neat idea and we could do 2 for DUU. But I am ok with the way you have chosen it. I really think a week is too long to continue discussing opinions people aren't going to change
 

kaori

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I think the decisions are fine and don't think there's really enough discussion left to be had to last a week, looking forward to it :]
 
I'm still of the thought that there's not 18 high caliber DOU players, but it seems like this is being seen as more of a fun tour, as opposed to a competitive one, so I don't think that's a problem.
 

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