Resource Don't Use That; Use This (ORAS Version)

[Guidorealmsmc]

Is mega garchomp really outclassed/bad enough to be on here? I find it weird to have something especially if it's a set on something like a garchomp in this thread.

 

[Kurona]

Is mega garchomp really outclassed/bad enough to be on here? I find it weird to have something especially if it's a set on something like a garchomp in this thread.

It was specifically stated that it shouldn't be used on non-sand teams in place of Kyub; but I must admit I'm not entirely certain that sort of thing should fly.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I was making a set of Shuckle for my tumblr, and I hate to found this set.

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/bw/shuckle.png
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Shell Smash
- Rest
- Infestation / Sleep Talk.

Even though Shell Smash Contrary would be good to pwoer up his defenses, it's not good to be used on Shuckle. For starters, any Steel type counters this set thanks to it'¡s immunity to Toxic. Second, this set is checked by a lot of Rock types, Water types (except maybe Alomomola), and Poison types with neutral coverage, and is compelte set-up bait for opposing sweepers.

In general, Shuckle is unviable as a pure wall, even with Contrary Shell Smash.

Also, don't use this
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP /252 Atk /8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power Trick
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Gyro Ball

Apart of not having Bug coverage, this set makes him extremely frail on the physical side, basically meaning that if Shuckle take 1 HP of previous damage, it will be OHKoed by any physical attack, which is fatal for a Pokemon that is so slow.

What to use?
First, try to avoid gimmicks like Power Trick Shuckle. This type of gimmick with lesser used moves usually don't work well, outside a few exceptions (examples of exceptions: CritDra, Dual Screens Latios, and when Mawilite is legal, Foul Play M-Mawile).

There's a lot of better walls in OU, like Skarmory, Quagsire, M-Aggron, Ferrthorn, M-Sableye, etc.

And if you really want to set, use this


If you want to use Shuckle, use this set
Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Infestation / Toxic / Knock Off / Rest.

If you really want to sue Shuckle, use his only viable sets. Sticky Web is a great hazard with horrible users, and Shuckle is one of the two onyl viable setters,a nd the only who hope to put Sticky Web again. Stealth Rock helps hinking twice before using Flying types to counter this hazard. Encore can neutrlaize temporarily set-up sweepers and Defoggers. About the first option, Infestation traps the oppponent and cuases residual damage (also, has 100% accuracy) with no inmunities. Toxic is great for walling opponent, but is countered by a fw Pokemon and it's affected by taunt. Knock Off iccould be used solely to quit important items, like HCansey's Eviolite. Rest is an option to have reovery, even though it's not the best option because it costs a lot of momentum. Mental Herb is mandatory to at least be inmune to Taunt/Encore/etc once. Sturdy is important to guarantee one hazard per battle against poweful threats.

 

[MQJinx]

This has 25% usage in the 1695 stats of Lopunny.

Don't use this:

with Cute Charm
Why it's bad:

Yes, I know that you're gonna mega evolve Lopunny, but that still does not give an excuse to have a rather useless ability on it. The random gender mechanics often means that you might end up with a male against a male, or a female against female, making Cute Charm situational to the point where it's not worth it.

Use this:

with Limber
Why it's good:

Even though the situation might be rare, Limber allows pre-mega Lopunny to switch in on predicted Thunder Waves from stuff like Ferrothorn, Chansey and Thundurus, thus allowing you to High Jump Kick the former two and Fake Out the latter if weakened, without being crippled in the process. You might not get to to this scenerio realistically, but at least it has some use unlike Cute Charm for that 1 in who knows what chance.

 

[Dee Train]

Hydreigon's Item usage stats are so messed up. | Choice Scarf 51.821% | | Life Orb 32.384% | | Choice Specs 14.781% | | Other 1.015% |

Don't Use this:

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Why it's bad:

I totally see the appeal in this as Scarf hydreigon seems appealing to patch up it's shanty speed but in reality scarfed hydreigon is bad. The main reason it's bad is that all of hydreigon's moves listed are awful to be locked into bar u-turn. Also It misses out on hydreigon's good mixed attacking prowess with a life orb and coverage which is probably the most appealing thing about hydreigon. Finally this set relies heavily on prediction because it's locked into one move.


Instead Use this:

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power/Superpower

Why it's better:

This set is miles better since it can utilize hydreigon's fantastic coverage to the fullest and it destroys common balance cores which is hydreigon's biggest selling point. Also It's not as prediction reliant since anything that switches in is 2hkod by a life orb boosted coverage move which the scarf set cannot boast. Finally this makes as mentioned before this set makes hydreigon a good wall breaker to balance which is where it's biggest niche in OU lies at.

Lov elife orb dreigon its got true power, i also agree that scraf isnt the most optimal, though it has small niche

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Please don't use this:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume / Toxic
- Taunt / Toxic
- Ancient Power

Why it's bad:

With Ancient Power, Heatran's job to check Fire-types such as Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame becomes much harder, as Ancient Power fails to OHKO them, not factoring in Stealth Rock damage. It's lame to think the Heatran can't check what it's supposed to check...

Calcs to prove my point:

0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 208-248 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 196-232 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 292-348 (91.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 200-236 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Instead, use this:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume / Toxic
- Taunt / Toxic
- Stone Edge > Ancient Power

With Stone Edge, Heatran manages to secure an OHKO on Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame, while also dealing decent damage to the likes of Mega Charizard X and Assault Vest Tornadus-T.

Calcs to prove my point:

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 144-170 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (103.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (99 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

Don't use this:

With Overgrow.
Why it's bad:
Much like Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur' ability before it mega evolves hardly matters. However, Venusaur's hidden ability does have a small niche, unlike Overgrow.
Use this:

With Chlorophyll
Why it's good:
Chlorophyll can occasionally come in handy. Chlorophyll can allow Mega Venusaur to revenge kill Charizard Y most of the time after stealth rock with Sludge Bomb. Although this situation will rarely happen, it is still more useful than Overgrow.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

Don't use this:
View attachment 41356
With Overgrow.
Why it's bad:
Much like Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur' ability before it mega evolves hardly matters. However, Venusaur's hidden ability does have a small niche, unlike Overgrow.
Use this:
View attachment 41356
With Chlorophyll
Why it's good:
Chlorophyll can occasionally come in handy. Chlorophyll can allow Mega Venusaur to revenge kill Charizard Y most of the time after stealth rock with Sludge Bomb. Although this situation will rarely happen, it is still more useful than Overgrow.

This same argument can be extended to the person who brought up Cute Charm Lopunny, its an obvious, yet usually inconsequential nitpick.

 

[Empress]

I found something very disturbing in this month's OU 1695 stats:

Serperior items: | Assault Vest 3.594% |
Magnezone items: | Assault Vest 4.188% |
Mew items: | Assault Vest 8.886% |
Victini items: | Assault Vest 12.418% |

All of my wat.

For the love of Arceus, do not use these:

Serperior / Magnezone / Mew / Victini @ Assault Vest

Why it's bad: You ladder people just can't help yourselves, can you? Let's talk about why each of these Pokemon is a poor holder of Assault Vest.

- Serperior might not look quite as bad as the other three because it hits plenty hard after a boost from Leaf Storm, but it's not bulky enough to use AV because it will fully invest in Special Attack and Speed, not HP. If a mon has no bulk investment and is using AV, it'll often still be too frail to take a hit and will miss the damage boost from an offensive item. Not to mention that Serp can't use Glare or Synthesis alongside AV, which it may very well be doing if it's to be used as such.

- Magnezone relies on its Choice items in order to smack slow Steel-types hard or pick off fast Steel-types. If it uses AV, it can neither wallbreak nor revenge kill, which are the only things it should be doing. Sure, it's arguably got the defensive typing and decent enough bulk to pull off AV, but it has way better things to be doing.
EDIT: I don't care that AV is listed in Magnezone's analysis; Specs and Scarf are infinitely better.

- First off, Mew rely heavily on its support movepool, so it misses the chance to use Defog, Will-O-Wisp, and Stealth Rock, among other moves, with an AV. Moreover, base 100 Attack just isn't really hitting hard enough, even with all the coverage in the world. Slowking can get away with its low-ish Special Attack because of Regenerator and a better defensive typing, but Mew can't get away with it nearly as easily.

- You definitely shouldn't be running AV alongside V-create. While Victini hits hard, had good bulky, and does not rely on support moves, using V-create lowers its Special Defense, which completely defeats the purpose of Assault Vest. The item is used to tank attacks, but Victini won't be tanking anything relevant if it accumulates Special Defense drops.

Instead, use these:

Serperior @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Miracle Seed
Magnezone @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Mew @ Leftovers
Victini @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf

Why it's better: There, now each mon is using the item(s) that it should be using. Now Serperior can deal the damage that it's supposed to and be able to utilize Glare and Synthesis on a bulky set. Magnezone can actually trap and kill Steel-types now, whether they're bulky or fast. Mew is now the support mon that it should be (seriously, don't use offensive Mew unless you're extremely desperate for a lure). Finally, Victini can go back to wallbreaking, cleaning, and revenge killing, none of which it can do if it has an Assault Vest.

Alternatively, use these:

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Tornadus-T @ Assault Vest
Raikou @ Assault Vest

Why it's better: If you're gonna use Assault Vest right, you need Pokemon that can actually use the item effectively. Azumarill and Raikou fit the criteria of being good AV users by having strong defensive typings. If they have a good typing on defense, they can actually take the special hits that they are supposed to. As for Tornadus-T, his strong offensive stats and access to Regenerator make him a perfect Assault Vest pivot. While the Flying-type is disappointing on defense, Torn-T still isn't frail. Also, let me reiterate: Regenerator makes such a defensive mon even more difficult to take down.

EDIT AM BELOW: Uhhh... what exactly do you mean? Cryptic messages ftw.

 

[AM]

I found something very disturbing in this month's OU 1695 stats:

Serperior items: | Assault Vest 3.594% |
Magnezone items: | Assault Vest 4.188% |
Mew items: | Assault Vest 8.886% |
Victini items: | Assault Vest 12.418% |

All of my wat.

For the love of Arceus, do not use these:

Serperior / Magnezone / Mew / Victini @ Assault Vest

Why it's bad: You ladder people just can't help yourselves, can you? Let's talk about why each of these Pokemon is a poor holder of Assault Vest.

- Serperior might not look quite as bad as the other three because it hits plenty hard after a boost from Leaf Storm, but it's not bulky enough to use AV because it will fully invest in Special Attack and Speed, not HP. If a mon has no bulk investment and is using AV, it'll often still be too frail to take a hit and will miss the damage boost from an offensive item. Not to mention that Serp can't use Glare or Synthesis alongside AV, which it may very well be doing if it's to be used as such.

- Magnezone relies on its Choice items in order to smack slow Steel-types hard or pick off fast Steel-types. If it uses AV, it can neither wallbreak nor revenge kill, which are the only things it should be doing. Sure, it's arguably got the defensive typing and decent enough bulk to pull off AV, but it has way better things to be doing.
EDIT: I don't care that AV is listed in Magnezone's analysis; Specs and Scarf are infinitely better.

- First off, Mew rely heavily on its support movepool, so it misses the chance to use Defog, Will-O-Wisp, and Stealth Rock, among other moves, with an AV. Moreover, base 100 Attack just isn't really hitting hard enough, even with all the coverage in the world. Slowking can get away with its low-ish Special Attack because of Regenerator and a better defensive typing, but Mew can't get away with it nearly as easily.

- You definitely shouldn't be running AV alongside V-create. While Victini hits hard, had good bulky, and does not rely on support moves, using V-create lowers its Special Defense, which completely defeats the purpose of Assault Vest. The item is used to tank attacks, but Victini won't be tanking anything relevant if it accumulates Special Defense drops.

Instead, use these:

Serperior @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Miracle Seed
Magnezone @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Mew @ Leftovers
Victini @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf

Why it's better: There, now each mon is using the item(s) that it should be using. Now Serperior can deal the damage that it's supposed to and be able to utilize Glare and Synthesis on a bulky set. Magnezone can actually trap and kill Steel-types now, whether they're bulky or fast. Mew is now the support mon that it should be (seriously, don't use offensive Mew unless you're extremely desperate for a lure). Finally, Victini can go back to wallbreaking, cleaning, and revenge killing, none of which it can do if it has an Assault Vest.

Alternatively, use these:

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Tornadus-T @ Assault Vest
Raikou @ Assault Vest

Why it's better: If you're gonna use Assault Vest right, you need Pokemon that can actually use the item effectively. Azumarill and Raikou fit the criteria of being good AV users by having strong defensive typings. If they have a good typing on defense, they can actually take the special hits that they are supposed to. As for Tornadus-T, his strong offensive stats and access to Regenerator make him a perfect Assault Vest pivot. While the Flying-type is disappointing on defense, Torn-T still isn't frail. Also, let me reiterate: Regenerator makes such a defensive mon even more difficult to take down.

This sounds like a good idea. I'll let you all decide what that means.

 

[Repeater1947]

For the love of god, please don't run this EV spread:

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Why it's bad:

I still see this EV spread used on some teams. While somewhat rare, people may also suggest this EV spread on certain RMTs (i'm not gonna call out names of those who do, nor single out anyone though). However, many fail to realize that it only hits a mediocre 354 speed, enough to outrun only Thundurus. As such, you fail to outrun base 115s such as Raikou and Mega Absol (M-Absol laughs as you die from a +2 Sucker Punch), as well as Scarf Magnezone. Now, there may be a few people who probably know this, but still either run or suggest this EV spread for either the sake of extra bulk and/or feel that outspeeding only Thundurus is important. However, extra bulk is quite irrelevant on offensive mons and the difference between running 88 HP and 120 HP EVs doesn't make much of a big deal. Take a look on these damagecalcs for example:

Defensive Calcs: 88 HP vs. 120 HP EVs

88 HP
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 159-187 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120 HP
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 159-187 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, you have seen that both EV spreads do not make much of a difference for an eight (8) point (32 EVs) difference in HP. It would make sense if you decide to run more bulk on a defensive set, but we're talking about SD Talonflame, an offensive mon. So, with that said...
Instead, use this:

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Why it's better:

168 Spe EVs and higher allows it to outspeed base 115s such as Mega Absol and Raikou, as well as Scarf Magnezone. Alternatively, going max speed is also viable in order to outrun Weavile and Dugtrio, as well as to at least tie with the opposing Talonflame.

For a quick reference, take a look on the relevant speed tiers:

Relevant Speed Tiers

format: Final Speed Stat / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature / EVs / Boost / Altered IVs (if necessary)
386 / Talonflame / 126 / +Spe / 252 / 0
383 / Weavile / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Dugtrio / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
363 / Talonflame / 126 / +Spe / 168 / 0
361 / Absol (Mega), Raikou / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
358 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1 / 30IV [Hidden Power Fire]
354 / Talonflame / 126 / +Spe / 136 / 0
353 / Thundurus / 111 / +Spe / 252 / 0
351 / Talonflame / 126 / Neutral / 252 / 0
350 / Diancie (Mega), Gallade (Mega), Gengar, Latias, Latias (Mega), Latios, Latios (Mega), Metagross (Mega) / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0

source: ORAS OU Speed Tiers, though I added some more Talonflame speed creeps.

As said, outrunning Scarf Magnezone and base 115s is actually the main selling point for running Jolly on Talonflame in the first place. It pretty much sucks that you otherwise can't beat the threats that you actually outspeed naturally. Jolly makes good use of Talonflame's great base 126 speed tier and isn't something to miss out, and you could just go for Adamant if you don't have plans of breaking the base 115 speed barrier.

 

[jzplr]

Alright, this is probably a huge overreaction -- 0.115% of players use Cinccino. Big deal. That's like, ... math hurts my brain. But, *ahem*

DO NOT USE THIS EVER

Cinccino @ King's Rock / Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- U-turn

Cinccino looks pretty good on paper. Speaking of looks, it's adorable. It's faster than Eminem on a sugar rush, 95 base attack is at least half-decent, and it has a 125 base power STAB attack in Tail Slap, and 125 base power coverage. Pretty nice, right? Not really. Priority runs rampant in OU, as do Steel-types. It's very frail, and it often falls short. Anything with half-decent bulk like Mega Gallade uninvested can take a Tail Slap. Yeah, 68/95 isn't that bad, but just remember that any regular team has a Steel-type or something that can kill Cinccino with priority or with one good punch to its fluffy little face, and hyper offensive teams tend to have things that can outspeed Cinccino and kill it -- specifically scarfers or things like Talonflame and Mega Alakazam. Also, priority. Talonflame, Talonflame, Talonflame. Basically, Cinccino is a revenge killer, and that's not bad. But it's just so outclassed by pretty much every fast attacker -- I could go on and on. Aerodactyl is nothing like Cinccino and I might as well slap it on and say "it's a fast attacker. Use it." So here's just a few examples --
Use these please

Basically everything I just said. Better than Cinccino -- just... better. Want good coverage? Want speed? (I guess you need Scarfed Diggersby in that case but uh) You've got it, boss. These things hit hard, and they're... better. That's it. They're not necessarily the same, but Mega Heracross is the closest Skill Link user I could find and he's not really close at all.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

While I don't disagree with the write-up (though of the three listed only Lopunny's really considered fast without a scarf and I don't know why you'd bother bringing up Mega Heracross), I feel that doing a write-up on things with that low of a usage is...unnecessary.

A usage stat of 3.41% means that there's a 50% chance of seeing it once every 20 battles.
A usage stat of 1.70% means that you'll likely see it once every 40.
A usage stat of 0.825% means you might see it once every 80.
.413% means once every 160
...
(someone correct me if this is wrong since I couldn't find the exact answer)
Going off this pattern, wouldn't .1% mean that you might see one only once every 640 battles? There's nothing else really going on in the threat, so perhaps I'm butting in more than I should, but I'm not entirely sure that doing write-ups on things that are only seen MAYBE once every 640 battles is particularly useful.

 

[AM]

Yeah and when you put "use these please" and just put "all of these are better" it's pointless cause it's not even a don't use this use that, it's literally don't use this ever anything will work better type of deal.

 

[michaeloche]

Please don't use this:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume / Toxic
- Taunt / Toxic
- Ancient Power

Why it's bad:

With Ancient Power, Heatran's job to check Fire-types such as Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame becomes much harder, as Ancient Power fails to OHKO them, not factoring in Stealth Rock damage. It's lame to think the Heatran can't check what it's supposed to check...

Calcs to prove my point:

0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 208-248 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 196-232 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 292-348 (91.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 200-236 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Instead, use this:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume / Toxic
- Taunt / Toxic
- Stone Edge > Ancient Power

With Stone Edge, Heatran manages to secure an OHKO on Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame, while also dealing decent damage to the likes of Mega Charizard X and Assault Vest Tornadus-T.

Calcs to prove my point:

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 144-170 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (103.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (99 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I don't agree with this 100%. While what you say about the damage is true, AP still gets OHKOs after Stealth Rock (but to be fair, a lot will do that to something that's 4x SR weak). There is one thing other than that why AP can still work, and it's not muh boosting chance. It's accuracy. Yes, I know this brings up the infamous power vs. accuracy argument. Still, you're not getting screwed over by AP missing something it's supposed to beat, or at least weaken.

 

[pika pal]

I don't agree with this 100%. While what you say about the damage is true, AP still gets OHKOs after Stealth Rock (but to be fair, a lot will do that to something that's 4x SR weak). There is one thing other than that why AP can still work, and it's not muh boosting chance. It's accuracy. Yes, I know this brings up the infamous power vs. accuracy argument. Still, you're not getting screwed over by AP missing something it's supposed to beat, or at least weaken.

With Pokemon 4x weak, the team is going to employ hazard control to avoid ever coming in on Rocks, and Heatran wants to nail the OHKO wherever it can since these mons won't stay in to get hit unless they don't know Heatran has a Rock move.

 

[michaeloche]

Okay, this one may be a tad bit controversial.

Don't use this:

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Dragon Claw

Why it's bad: I can understand why people love using Dragon Claw Kyub, because it's a physical Dragon STAB with no negative effects. It has its uses on some sets, but this one, the specially based mixed attacker, is not one of those sets. Why? Well, for starters, coming off of only 56 Attack EVs, it's not all that great for wallbreaking despite the massive base 170 Attack. Second, the majority of things you would ever want Dragon Claw to hit are already hit hard enough by one your other moves, namely Ice Beam.

Edit: I'm not saying Dragon Claw is completely unviable on Kyub in general, which it isn't. I'm only saying don't use it on this set.

Instead, use this:

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Outrage / Roost / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Fire]

Why it's better: If you absolutely must use a Dragon STAB, Outrage is the best way to go. Yes, I know it traps you and Fairies exist, but:
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The on-site analysis even mentions this specific scenario. Outrage is a full 50% stronger than Dragon Claw, so as long as there are no Fairies running around, don't be shy about hitting the win button. The other moves listed have their uses as well. Roost is used to give Kyub a little more longevity, as Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and other sources of damage tend to wear it down, plus the first three moves generally have good enough coverage anyway. Focus Blast is an option to destroy Tyranitar, which would otherwise be difficult to take out, while HP Fire is used for most Steel types, even able to hit Air Balloon Heatran thanks to Teravolt ignoring Flash Fire. If you do choose HP Fire, I suggest changing the spread to 52 Atk / 252 SpA / 204 Spe to compensate for the loss of the Speed IV.

 

[Celticpride]

Okay, this one may be a tad bit controversial.

Don't use this:

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Dragon Claw

Why it's bad: I can understand why people love using Dragon Claw Kyub, because it's a physical Dragon STAB with no negative effects. It has its uses on some sets, but this one, the specially based mixed attacker, is not one of those sets. Why? Well, for starters, coming off of only 56 Attack EVs, it's not all that great for wallbreaking despite the massive base 170 Attack. Second, the majority of things you would ever want Dragon Claw to hit are already hit hard enough by one your other moves, namely Ice Beam.

Instead, use this:

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Outrage / Roost / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Fire]

Why it's better: If you absolutely must use a Dragon STAB, Outrage is the best way to go. Yes, I know it traps you and Fairies exist, but:
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The on-site analysis even mentions this specific scenario. Outrage is a full 50% stronger than Dragon Claw, so as long as there are no Fairies running around, don't be shy about hitting the win button. The other moves listed have their uses as well. Roost is used to give Kyub a little more longevity, as Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and other sources of damage tend to wear it down, plus the first three moves generally have good enough coverage anyway. Focus Blast is an option to destroy Tyranitar, which would otherwise be difficult to take out, while HP Fire is used for most Steel types, even able to hit Air Balloon Heatran thanks to Teravolt ignoring Flash Fire. If you do choose HP Fire, I suggest changing the spread to 52 Atk / 252 SpA / 204 Spe to compensate for the loss of the Speed IV.

Small thing but you might want to throw a passing line at the end about how Dragon Claw is very much viable on a physically based build, and that Outrage is not as needed on those sets.

 

[michaeloche]

ded thread is ded

21:00 michaeloche !usage houndoom moves ou
21:00 TIBot Dark Pulse 97.894% | Nasty Plot 80.019% | Fire Blast 76.912% | Will-O-Wisp 34.369% | Flamethrower 21.254% | Taunt 18.953% | Sludge Bomb 16.389% | Destiny Bond 14.630% | Solar Beam 8.671% | Sucker Punch 6.867% | Sunny Day 5.665% | Other 18.377%

Okay, people are still using this.

Don't use this:

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam

Why it's bad: Mega Houndoom has access to Solar Power and Fire STAB, and with Ninetales out of the realm of viability, the only way to take advantage of it is Sunny Day. However, it's not a good idea to use it, because it takes away 1/8 of your HP per turn, and considering Doomer's lack of bulk, chopping away at it like this is not ideal. On a similar note, Solar Beam isn't exceptional either, even if you do use sun, because Fire Blast does more damage while resisted (in the sun) than Solar Beam does while neutral, and 4x Grass weaknesses are rather uncommon in OU. And don't ever use Solar Beam outside of sun for obvious reasons, plus it's massive Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Politoed/special wall bait.

Instead, use this:

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt

Why it's better: Nasty Plot completely outclasses Sunny Day as a setup move. It's a +2 boost rather than an effective +1, and it does not damage you. It does result in a less powerful Fire Blast, but it gives the +2 to Dark Pulse as well, only knocking off about 11% power from Fire Blast anyway, which is not a huge difference considering what a +2 Fire Blast can do anyway.

As for the last slot, the two moves listed are the best overall, but others have niches, such as Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy types not named Klefki, or Destiny Bond to nab an emergency kill in a pinch.

Or, use this:

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Def (or 4 Atk) / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast / Earthquake
- Roost

Why it's also better: Zard-Y sets sun automatically just by showing up in battle while mega evolved, freeing up a moveslot for something else. While it lacks Nasty Plot, it can nail those pesky bulky waters immediately with Solar Beam, and can either Focus Blast or Earthquake should Tyranitar show up.

 

[Random Passerby]

ded thread is ded
21:00 michaeloche !usage houndoom moves ou
21:00 TIBot Dark Pulse 97.894% | Nasty Plot 80.019% | Fire Blast 76.912% | Will-O-Wisp 34.369% | Flamethrower 21.254% | Taunt 18.953% | Sludge Bomb 16.389% | Destiny Bond 14.630% | Solar Beam 8.671% | Sucker Punch 6.867% | Sunny Day 5.665% | Other 18.377%

Okay, people are still using this.

Don't use this:

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam

Why it's bad: Mega Houndoom has access to Solar Power and Fire STAB, and with Ninetales out of the realm of viability, the only way to take advantage of it is Sunny Day. However, it's not a good idea to use it, because it takes away 1/8 of your HP per turn, and considering Doomer's lack of bulk, chopping away at it like this is not ideal. On a similar note, Solar Beam isn't exceptional either, even if you do use sun, because Fire Blast does more damage while resisted (in the sun) than Solar Beam does while neutral, and 4x Grass weaknesses are rather uncommon in OU. And don't ever use Solar Beam outside of sun for obvious reasons, plus it's massive Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Politoed/special wall bait.

Instead, use this:

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt

Why it's better: Nasty Plot completely outclasses Sunny Day as a setup move. It's a +2 boost rather than an effective +1, and it does not damage you. It does result in a less powerful Fire Blast, but it gives the +2 to Dark Pulse as well, only knocking off about 11% power from Fire Blast anyway, which is not a huge difference considering what a +2 Fire Blast can do anyway.

As for the last slot, the two moves listed are the best overall, but others have niches, such as Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy types not named Klefki, or Destiny Bond to nab an emergency kill in a pinch.

Can't say I agree with you there. Sunny Day + Solar Beam allows Mega Houndoom to put it's common checks such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados and Tyranitar into a tight spot.

 

[Toljik]

ded thread is ded

21:00 michaeloche !usage houndoom moves ou
21:00 TIBot Dark Pulse 97.894% | Nasty Plot 80.019% | Fire Blast 76.912% | Will-O-Wisp 34.369% | Flamethrower 21.254% | Taunt 18.953% | Sludge Bomb 16.389% | Destiny Bond 14.630% | Solar Beam 8.671% | Sucker Punch 6.867% | Sunny Day 5.665% | Other 18.377%

Okay, people are still using this.

Don't use this:

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam

Why it's bad: Mega Houndoom has access to Solar Power and Fire STAB, and with Ninetales out of the realm of viability, the only way to take advantage of it is Sunny Day. However, it's not a good idea to use it, because it takes away 1/8 of your HP per turn, and considering Doomer's lack of bulk, chopping away at it like this is not ideal. On a similar note, Solar Beam isn't exceptional either, even if you do use sun, because Fire Blast does more damage while resisted (in the sun) than Solar Beam does while neutral, and 4x Grass weaknesses are rather uncommon in OU. And don't ever use Solar Beam outside of sun for obvious reasons, plus it's massive Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Politoed/special wall bait.

Instead, use this:

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 40 HP / 8 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt

Why it's better: Nasty Plot completely outclasses Sunny Day as a setup move. It's a +2 boost rather than an effective +1, and it does not damage you. It does result in a less powerful Fire Blast, but it gives the +2 to Dark Pulse as well, only knocking off about 11% power from Fire Blast anyway, which is not a huge difference considering what a +2 Fire Blast can do anyway.

As for the last slot, the two moves listed are the best overall, but others have niches, such as Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy types not named Klefki, or Destiny Bond to nab an emergency kill in a pinch.

It's certainly not MHoundoom's best set, but every single Fire + Dark resist in OU (bar Hydreigon) loses to Solarbeam. As a lure set, it does its job perfectly. And due to Solar Power, the boost to Fire Blast is 2.25x.

EDIT: And Mega Altaria.

 

[michaeloche]

Okay, I'll give you guys that SunnyBeam a lure, but I've found that Doomer is best played (in OU, at least) as a late game cleaner, and that, of course, means that the checks in question will either be dead or weakened to the point that they go down to a +2 STAB move, or as a stallbreaker, and none of its checks bar Chansey are really stall mons. The main issue I have with Sunny Day Doomer is the constant self damage, and the fact that, in general, NP is better.

I would also mention that Solar Beam is probably done better by Mega Charizard Y because of semi-permanent sun. I'm going to edit that in to the original post.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Reviving this cause I liked this thread haha :P
Something that kinda pisses me off...

Clefable | +----------------------------------------+ |
Spreads | | Calm:252/0/164/0/92/0 18.157% | | Calm:252/0/160/0/96/0 15.926% | | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 11.054% | | Bold:252/0/252/0/4/0 10.120% | | Bold:252/0/248/0/8/0 3.846% | | Bold:248/0/252/0/8/0 3.071% | | Other 37.826%

asdfghjkl; why is everyone still using the old spreads :(

Don't Use This:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD or 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower / Thunder Wave / Knock Off

Why it's bad: This set is quite old, and is ineffective right now. While not terrible per se, it is outclassed by another spread, which allows Clefable to comfortably take on attackers easier. These spreads let a Kyurem-B and Mega Lopunny have a chance to 2HKO Clefable with Ice Beam and Return, respectively, something that Clefable really does NOT want as more or less checks these Pokemon. This spread does nearly the below spread does, but misses out solely on these avoiding these KOes, which is a huge deciding factor in this spread's viability.

Instead, use this:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower / Thunder Wave / Knock Off

Why it's better: This EV spread does everything the 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD can ever do and ever wish for. It still avoids KOes the aforementioned spread does, but also avoiding 2HKOes from Mega Lopunny's Return and Kyurem-B's Ice Beam 100% of the time. To quote directly from the analysis (which isn't plagiarism you know): "Leftovers increases Clefable's longevity and allows it to check many Pokemon much better. The given Special Defense and HP investment along with a Calm nature allow Clefable to, most of the time, avoid the 2HKO from Mild Life Orb Kyurem-B's Ice Beam, Thundurus's Thunderbolt, Mega Diancie's Moonblast, and Mega Manectric's Thunderbolt. The given Defense and HP investment allow Clefable to avoid the 2HKO from Jolly Mega Lopunny's Return, Latios's Psyshock, and Jolly Mega Gyarados's Waterfall, as well as the OHKO from Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch."

 

[FullLifeGames]

Why it's better: This EV spread does everything the 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD can ever do and ever wish for. It still avoids KOes the aforementioned spread does, but also avoiding 2HKOes from Mega Lopunny's Return and Kyurem-B's Ice Beam 100% of the time.

Don't want to jump at you, but this really isn't correct.

1) You don't avoid the 2HKO by Mega Lopunny and Kyurem-B 100% of the time, even with the new spread:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

2) I fail to see, how less SpD lets you take Kyurem-B's Ice Beams better

Edit: Bolded the important parts for better understanding

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Don't want to jump at you, but this really isn't correct.

1) You don't avoid the 2HKO by Mega Lopunny and Kyurem-B 100% of the time, even with the new spread:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

2) I fail to see, how less SpD lets you take Kyurem-B's Ice Beams better

You do realize kyurem black only had a 5.5% chance of 2hkoing it. It also walls most lopunny unless adamant lopunny or power up punch as your calc stated lopunny only has a 5% chance of 2hkoing as well.

DarkNostalgia specifically stated this about the spread:

The given Defense and HP investment allow Clefable to avoid the 2HKO from Jolly Mega Lopunny's Return, Latios's Psyshock, and Jolly Mega Gyarados's Waterfall, as well as the OHKO from Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch."