USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

Smallsmallrose · Jun 16, 2018

So a few things have popped up that I agree and disagree on.

Steelvally to C/C+: Agree. Steelvally has versatility and a niche that other steels of its nature really can't mimic. And being able to run moves like flamethrower and ice beam really sets it aside as it can pick what it wants to fight. Another thing is most of our steels are physical oriented (Aggron, Scizor, Staka, etc.) Too frail for defensive application (Magneton and Lucario) or too passive to do any major damage with the few attacking moves they run. (Registeel and Brongzong) Only Empoleon even comes close to mimicking the niche of a bulky special steel, but it prefers to run more defensively oriented sets, and even its few offensive sets are stuck with a more shallow movepool than Steelvally. Steelvally also isn't Mag bait like many steels with its flamethrower and fast parting shot, making it much harder defensive steel to kill or even trap with the wonderful steel trapper. Steelvally also adds to its versatility by virtue of parting shot, giving solid momentum for a mon of defensive nature. Steelvally really sets itself aside from the other steels in the lower ranks by virtue of a unique niche, many options for moves within that niche, as well as keeping momentum, something rare for a lot of our steels without their own pivoting moves (Which parting shot is still unique among). Its also a really solid defogger since mono-steel is a solid mono-typing for defogging in many situations. Silvally should use these grounds to rise to C or C+

Terrakion to A: Disagree. For one, preemptively offering to rise a mon based on a prediction of future metagame trends is a really bold move, especially since we have no idea how the meta will actually develop in the next few months. Imagine if I say, proposed a Mega Manetric drop to A- or whatever on account of a Mamo drop back to UU, and Mamo doesn't drop. Then I'm suddenly looking really silly. There is absolutely no guarantee that Breloom will for sure face the banhammer and that Gliscor is guaranteed a spot in the OU metagame. And even if they were, it'd be better to make a VR post AFTER these changes have already happened. But beyond this, I STILL disagree with this drop, because even if Breloom and Gliscor DO leave, terrakion faces a lot of heartache. Its extremely prone to revenge killing by fast mons like Latias, Serperior, scarf Krook, the list goes on. It also struggles terribly with priority like the aqua jets of Crawdaunt and Feraligatr, as well as Scizor's bullet punch, and even Lucario's vaccum wave can threaten it with a dust of chip. And while stallbreaker is an alright argument for the viability of a mon beyond how more offensive squads handle it, its not even hot as a stallbreaker right now, as some stalls run Scizor, which can wall it well enough on defensive variants and threaten to beat it down with bullet punch. Terrakion also struggles with the stall trends of Slowbro and some stalls even picking up Doublade, and its SD sets can even be threatened by Pyukumuku and Quagsire. Its band set also constantly forces it to switch as something comes in on the move its locked into, making choice band Terrak heavily dependent on prediction as a stallbreaker, and constantly being forced out even when it does get a kill leaves it prone to hazard chip, and stall players likely won't be so keen to let it in for free ever again, as they will fire off a status or super effective move whenever Terrakion sniffs out it's prey and tries to come back in. Not to mention Bats on Stall can easily revenge a chipped Terrak, and stall Bat is fairly common right now with the dominance of Breloom, and may still be used for fighting type trends in the future. All in all, Gliscor and Breloom are far from the only hindrance to Terrakion's entrance into the higher ranks. And it should stay A- Until a meta trend REALLY favors it.

AND NOW FOR MY OWN NOM:

SWAMPERT TO A

Swampert has been hitting the gym lately, and has begun to flex its base 110 attack for the first time in several gens. Its using this base 110 attack with the Choice Band and Subzero slammer sets to completely ice the grass type meta that thinks its easy prey. Never before have I been so scared to hard in my Rotom-C or Serp on what normally would be free momentum and/or an easy rocks defog. Swampert's surprisingly impressive attacking prowess for what is normally used as a passive mon really sets it aside from its water/ground cousins of the other regions, barring Seismitoad which has also invested in its own attacking sets recently. Offensive grounds are still an expensive commodity with the missing Mamo, and Swampert even sets itself aside from the offensive ground type competition by virtue of its water typing, as offensive waters have been looking better and better since Azu isn't here to outclass and/or check all of them. The Subzero Slammer pert can get the freest kills of its life against the currently common playstyle of putting in grasses against what looks like a passive Pert, Band can do this too, and also be a really impressive breaker in it's own right with Swampert's strong attacking force. Swampert's re-discovered offensive strength mixed with its still strong defensive power in the meta really adds to its versatility, and I believe could be grounds for Swampert to rise to A rank.

sanguine · Jun 17, 2018

itsjustdrew said:
A little VR house keeping. UU has never been the place for Fire-types who lack secondary typing (e.g. Arcanine). Entei and Darmanitan both currently sit in the C and C+ catergories, yet Arcanine sits in D tier. What makes them so different that they are all in 3 separate tiers. Entei is the fastest of the 3 combining a good attack stat, solid defenses, and a decent speed tier. It benefits from its mediocre coverage and access to priority but struggles with its weakness to rocks, ability to kill itself, and the fact that its easily revenge killed. Darmanitan is the strongest fire type attacker in the tier but is held back by its weak defenses. It has no access to recovery similar to Entei and kills itself even faster. Its only promising feature is the massive damage it deals. Like Entei it has no longevity and can only do so much work in a given game. Arcanine, while not bulkier than Entei, has access to both Intimidate and recovery allowing it to wall Steel-types like Scizor and most importantly Breloom. But it still doesn't have a good place in the meta.

This isn't a post about Arcanine rising a tier since it is D tier and it will not be rising. This is a post showing that these non D tier Fire-types are only slightly better than Arcanine in the grand scheme. I think its time that we realized bulky waters run this tier, and without secondary typings these Pokemon don't pack the punch needed to break through. Although they aren't unviable their usage shows that people don't think they are worth a team slot. Their power is reigned in by the bulk of Swampert, Seismitoad, Alomomola, and Quagsire. Darmanitan should be C- or D tier while Entei should be C-.

I agree with your points about Darmanitan, but I wanted to interject about Entei. It doesn’t for one, kill itself all that easily, to be honest because it has access to Sacred Fire, a similarly strong Fire-type move that doesn’t inflict recoil, which is what sets it apart in the first place. I would also argue that the majority of the tier’s prominent wallbreakers are easily revenge killed, Terrakion, for example, dies to all sorts of priority, and is outspeed by a lot of mons + it dies to every scarfer. This applies to other prominent threats such as Breloom, Specs Hydreigon, and Nidoking (who has an even worse speed tier), and as such “being easily revenge killed” is an issue, sure, but I don’t think it’s an issue that makes Entei that much worse by comparison to other wallbreakers in the C tier such as Feraligatr and Marowak-Alola. Furthermore, what you call “mediocre coverage” is all it needs. The fourth moveslot is flexible in that one of Toxic / Iron Head / Stone Edge hits what you need to, and then you build the team around what you don’t. This, and the ability to pressure common Bulky Offense staples such as Mega Altaria, Tentacruel, and Hippowdon, as well as its access to priority in Extreme Speed turn it into a potent threat to any team if played correctly which warrants a place in C or even C+, not C- with arguably totally unviable Pokemon such as Stoutland/Mega Abomasnow. Lastly, “Their power is reigned in by the bulk of Swampert, Seismitoad, Alomomola, and Quagsire.” is somewhat inaccurate because two of those are seen exclusively on Stall, and neither Swampert nor Seismitoad have recovery, and the latter is quite uncommon.

palkia246 · Jun 17, 2018

itsjustdrew said:
A little VR house keeping. UU has never been the place for Fire-types who lack secondary typing (e.g. Arcanine). Entei and Darmanitan both currently sit in the C and C+ catergories, yet Arcanine sits in D tier. What makes them so different that they are all in 3 separate tiers. Entei is the fastest of the 3 combining a good attack stat, solid defenses, and a decent speed tier. It benefits from its mediocre coverage and access to priority but struggles with its weakness to rocks, ability to kill itself, and the fact that its easily revenge killed. Darmanitan is the strongest fire type attacker in the tier but is held back by its weak defenses. It has no access to recovery similar to Entei and kills itself even faster. Its only promising feature is the massive damage it deals. Like Entei it has no longevity and can only do so much work in a given game. Arcanine, while not bulkier than Entei, has access to both Intimidate and recovery allowing it to wall Steel-types like Scizor and most importantly Breloom. But it still doesn't have a good place in the meta.

This isn't a post about Arcanine rising a tier since it is D tier and it will not be rising. This is a post showing that these non D tier Fire-types are only slightly better than Arcanine in the grand scheme. I think its time that we realized bulky waters run this tier, and without secondary typings these Pokemon don't pack the punch needed to break through. Although they aren't unviable their usage shows that people don't think they are worth a team slot. Their power is reigned in by the bulk of Swampert, Seismitoad, Alomomola, and Quagsire. Darmanitan should be C- or D tier while Entei should be C-.

I disagree with dropping Darmanitan and I also think that a lot of the points brought up to drop it weren't really fair arguments. Comparing it to Arcanine outside of just acknowledging that they share a type isn't really fair at all since they have much different roles and aren't being used or put on teams for the same reasons. Arcanine is used purely as a defensive Pokemon while Darm is used purely in offensive roles. It doesn't check Breloom or wall Steel-types, but it isn't being put on teams to do that and shouldn't be judged for its inability to do it. Darmanitan's use stems from its offensive niche, which I'd argue is plenty pronounced to reasonably keep it in C+.

Darmanitan is actually the fastest between itself and Entei - Entei is forced to run an Adamant nature so saying it's fastest is only true if it drops Extreme Speed - but its main advantage in the metagame is being an offensive Fire-type capable of muscling past traditional Fire-type checks with its STAB attacks alone. Swampert and Seismitoad lack recovery entirely and because of that, can only realistically switch into Sheer Force-boosted Flare Blitz once since with some prior damage both can be 2HKOed on the switch. Other typical Fire-type switch-ins in Tentacruel, Mega Blastoise, Latias, Mantine, Moltres, and Suicune are all 2HKOed on the switch by the Choice Band set without prior damage. Entei and Infernape can struggle to 2HKO most of these Pokemon without working around them through predicting correctly, while sometimes they also just don't have the coverage necessary to do so, which complicates their ease of use compared to Darmanitan at times. Unlike Entei, Darmanitan also has the tools necessary to work around the up and coming Rhyperior, as it has access to Earthquake, while its Rock-type coverage is also stronger (thanks to Sheer Force) and has better accuracy. Darmanitan is plenty viable due to its ability to distinguish itself from its main competitors with its insane sheer power with Choice Band, though another direct advantage it has over Entei is the ability to viably run a Choice Scarf set in addition to Choice Band, which also gives it more versatility.

Overall, I think that Darmanitan should stay above Entei in the rankings and in C+ because its defensive counterplay is limited to especially sturdy bulky Water-types that often require recovery moves to adequately stand up to it. Its Choice Band set has never thrived, though I believe it to be strong enough and easily distinguishable from its competition enough that dropping it, especially to D, is an unfair thing to do. If Darmanitan were to drop, I'd prefer seeing it go to C, though in that case I'd argue Entei should drop as well as I really think its only niches over Darmanitan are Extreme Speed, its STAB's burn chance, and better longevity, which in the main scheme of things aren't as important considering it's more disadvantaged in the current metagame. Just my thoughts, but imo keep both where they are. Hope this made sense.

Pat Labor · Jun 19, 2018

I nominate Rope-kun (Comfey) for B-/C+ rank

Defensively, Rope-kun is a switch-in for Hydreigon, Kommo-o and others. Thanks GF, triage is a blessful ability. Offensively, Draining Kiss with +3 priority is a nightmare for offensive teams. He can RK/soft-check Latias, Altaria, Hydreigon, Breloom, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Kommo-o, etc... They needs Fire-, Poison- or Steel-typed to check the rope. In fact M-Aerodactyl and Magneton can remove these threats for Comfey. Badly, Comfey is confined in a archetype and most of the time you will prefer Togekiss or Sylveon as an offensive fairy-typed special sweeper. Moreover he's a deadweight against stalls and its only option is taunt to pressure them.

Taptricity · Jun 19, 2018

Pat Labor said:
I nominate Rope-kun (Comfey) for B-/C+ rank

Defensively, Rope-kun is a switch-in for Hydreigon, Kommo-o and others. Thanks GF, triage is a blessful ability. Offensively, Draining Kiss with +3 priority is a nightmare for offensive teams. He can RK/soft-check Latias, Altaria, Hydreigon, Breloom, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Kommo-o, etc... They needs Fire-, Poison- or Steel-typed to check the rope. In fact M-Aerodactyl and Magneton can remove these threats for Comfey. Badly, Comfey is confined in a archetype and most of the time you will prefer Togekiss or Sylveon as an offensive fairy-typed special sweeper. Moreover he's a deadweight against stalls and its only option is taunt to pressure them.

You’re just listing pros and cons on Comfey that we know about it for the most part. If you’d like to nom an unranked mon, this is the biggest question I’ll give you: What has changed for the mon for it to be considered to be added to the vr? Has a specific set gained traction on the ladder? Has recent metagame trends allowed this mon to shine? It takes a lot more work to nom an unranked mon since you now have to provide a lot more reasoning to why that mon should get a place anyway. Providing replays of this mon showing off its power can help us see a better picture of this mon on what it does. Replays are just the best example to improve your argument on a mon anyway.

So, it has priority Draining Kiss cool, but how does it exactly work in practice? I’d rather have more information before I give my two cents on Comfey.

dingbat · Jun 20, 2018

I actually think Stoise could rise as high as B+ with its 4 attacks set. Although there’s still a much bigger opportunity cost to running Stoise over Primarina (the reason why Stoise will and should always be ranked lower), it's definitely proven itself to carry its weight and then some, with its superior super effective coverage combined with the fact it’s not locked into moves proving to be a huge advantage in this current meta. Blastoise also takes massive advantage offensively with the fact that Scizor is currently rocking a usage rate of 40%+, which cannot necessarily be said with Primarina due to its Bullet Punch vulnerability. (if I actually saved replays, I'd have 15+ replays of me just getting free kills when my Stoise is in on Scizor.) Taking these factors into account, I believe B rank still sells Stoise a bit short and it should instead rise to B+.

I also agree with both Darm and Entei dropping, but Entei should definitely not be ranked above Darm. Extremespeed isn't really that huge of an advantage when Entei is already a massively exploitable mon anyways, and running basically any set outside of CB is quite honestly as bad as, maybe even worse than, running Arcanine. Additionally, I'd still value U-Turn's relative usefulness despite Darm being such a suicidal 'mon. Entei to C- and Darm to C-/C sounds about right atm since both are pretty bad.

I literally do not understand the comfey hype outside of this comfey guy dude who just likes to build with it lmao, I'll admit it's a lowkey annoying mon but it's definitely not rank-worthy if Loom ends up getting banned.

KM · Jun 21, 2018

A quick wednesday nom:

B- --> B

My specific recent usage using Rotom-H was using a Firium Z set that doesn't seem to be all too common -- with Overheat, VS, Defog, and Painsplit / HP Grass, you can essentially accomplish much of Rotom-C's niche (of being able to threaten ground types who set rocks) in a slightly different way. Things like hippo or Krook are pretty commonly switched into Rotom-H, and the power of Firium Z allows you to not only bust an extremely powerful first move, but also to follow up with a second overheat, without SpA drops.

While I understand that the usage of a Z move with regards to viability rankings is kind of complicated due to team restrictions, etc, I genuinely believe that Rotom-H isn't a B- pokemon. B- pokemon fill "minor, but relevant" niches -- but Rotom-H is a strong all-around pokemon. It strongly checks or counters most Scizors, Moltres, Serperior, Breloom (rip probably)..., has the function as a defogger who offensively threatens many stealth rock setters (with the Firium Z set, that's almost all of them, but without, MSteelix, Empoleon, Maggron, Forry, Celebi) and has phenomenal defensive typing. And while the rock weakness is unfortunate, for sure, it's hard to harp too much on that given how many of the premier defoggers in the tier are as or more weak to rocks.

Ultimately, Rotom-H just doesn't really fit in B-. it's not a powerful threat that needs significant support to make work, a pokemon you rarely use but occasionally craft a team around -- it's a mon that fits on a wide array of teams, fulfills a wide variety of functions well, and has serious counterplea against several S and A rank threats.

also i 6-0d pokeisfun with a rotom-h last week so it must be ok

Taptricity · Jun 22, 2018

Alright the shroom man you all know and hate is now banned on the ladder. I’m now going to discuss some mons that have now gotten better due to the ban.

Mega Sharpedo to A+

Klefki to A-
Spike stacking is back in business! Mega Shark now thrives in a meta without Azu and Loom around to stop it. It also has the perfect move pool that it can utilize to stop any checks. Psychic Fangs is such a boon for Mega Shark that lets it stop its checks from completely obliterating it. But of course what is a Mega Shark without its right hand man Klefki? Klefki rises and drops depending on how spikstacking is currently and since Mega Shark is its best abuser, I could definitely see Klefki rising with it. Klefki provides loads of support by Spikestacking and T-Wave any mons that can outrun (outswim??) Mega Shark. Give these two a rise.

Terrakion to A
Terrakion has been freed from the clutches of whatever Breloom’s hands are. Terrakion still puts a big dent in stall but now he’s just better. It’s just another mon that is now free without Azu and Loom around. I especially see Rockium/Fightinium Terrak putting much more work currently. Scizor can’t safely come in on Terrak anyway because both Z moves OHKO it.
252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 309-364 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stakataka to A-
Staka went from New Toy Syndrome, to criminally underrated. Staka can now get back to what it’s normally doing in OTR and can spam the shit out of Gyro Ball with much less worry about getting destroyed by a Mach Punch. Staka still has potential to crush the competition and it has seen usage outside of otr as well. Staka also comes in on many dragons with proper prediction and is not out of the fight just yet. It carries a whole playstyle on its back and I think it should rise to show it.

Aurorus and A-Slash to C+
I know that Aurora Veil is a niche playstyle but these two still get an honorable mention. These star crossed lovers just have much more breathing room. C+ reflects the position that these cool dudes are at currently (no pun intended). They carry a small but noticeable playstyle that in the right hands, can pull its weight on the battlefield. Scizor is still the bane of their existence but at least they aren’t getting manhandled by two priority STAB supereffective moves now. And unlike Breloom:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola with an ally's Aurora Veil: 69-81 (23.7 - 27.8%) -- 87.2% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola with an ally's Aurora Veil: 186-218 (63.9 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV is still a usable playstyle and it’s now gotten better and a rise will reflect that it has returned to some slight relevance.

LORD HELIX 65 · Jun 22, 2018

BackAtYouBro said:
Alright the shroom man you all know and hate is now banned on the ladder. I’m now going to discuss some mons that have now gotten better due to the ban.

Mega Sharpedo to A+

Klefki to A-
Spike stacking is back in business! Mega Shark now thrives in a meta without Azu and Loom around to stop it. It also has the perfect move pool that it can utilize to stop any checks. Psychic Fangs is such a boon for Mega Shark that lets it stop its checks from completely obliterating it. But of course what is a Mega Shark without its right hand man Klefki? Klefki rises and drops depending on how spikstacking is currently and since Mega Shark is its best abuser, I could definitely see Klefki rising with it. Klefki provides loads of support by Spikestacking and T-Wave any mons that can outrun (outswim??) Mega Shark. Give these two a rise.

Terrakion to A
Terrakion has been freed from the clutches of whatever Breloom’s hands are. Terrakion still puts a big dent in stall but now he’s just better. It’s just another mon that is now free without Azu and Loom around. I especially see Rockium/Fightinium Terrak putting much more work currently. Scizor can’t safely come in on Terrak anyway because both Z moves OHKO it.
252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 309-364 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stakataka to A-
Staka went from New Toy Syndrome, to criminally underrated. Staka can now get back to what it’s normally doing in OTR and can spam the shit out of Gyro Ball with much less worry about getting destroyed by a Mach Punch. Staka still has potential to crush the competition and it has seen usage outside of otr as well. Staka also comes in on many dragons with proper prediction and is not out of the fight just yet. It carries a whole playstyle on its back and I think it should rise to show it.

Aurorus and A-Slash to C+
I know that Aurora Veil is a niche playstyle but these two still get an honorable mention. These star crossed lovers just have much more breathing room. C+ reflects the position that these cool dudes are at currently (no pun intended). They carry a small but noticeable playstyle that in the right hands, can pull its weight on the battlefield. Scizor is still the bane of their existence but at least they aren’t getting manhandled by two priority STAB supereffective moves now. And unlike Breloom:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola with an ally's Aurora Veil: 69-81 (23.7 - 27.8%) -- 87.2% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola with an ally's Aurora Veil: 186-218 (63.9 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV is still a usable playstyle and it’s now gotten better and a rise will reflect that it has returned to some slight relevance.

Totally agree with all of these, especially the Stakataka and Shark rises. Stakataka is now a lot harder to stop during its sweep and has ither uses than just OTR. The band set hits hella hard, AV in sand unbelievably bulky, and it also serves as a good bird check to Pidgeot and Moltres thanks to it's typing and bulk. As for Sharpedo, the departure of Azumarill and Breloom has been huge for it, as it's two biggest counters are gone and it's free to spam waterfall much easier. It reminds me a lot of SM shark. So yeah bump it up. Also, now that Breloom has been banned, I'm gonna echo a nomination for a pokemon I made in the past but with poor reasoning.

Decidueye to C+
Now that Breloom has been banned, the mon it synergized well with and checked thanks to a handy grass resist and fighting immunity, Decidueye's niche has been weakened substantially. While it can still threaten stall and Mega Slowbro and bulky waters, why not just use Haxorus to stall break? It's much stronger with a way to boost its already faster speed and attack. Also, the banning of Breloom will inevitably result in an Increase of dark types, like Hydreigon, Mega Sharpedo, and Mega Houndoom especially, who could probably see a rise, but they all outspeed and OHKO with the right move. Despite all of this, Decidueye certainly has a niche in the tier, as an alternative to Tsareena as a
grass stallbreaker with ghost typing to boot, but now with Breloom gone, Dark types inevitably rising in usage, and other stallbreakers doing it's role a bit better, I feel it's niche is over represented by it being in B-. Bump it down to C+ Please.

WAZZUPYOSHI · Jun 23, 2018

BackAtYouBro said:
Alright the shroom man you all know and hate is now banned on the ladder. I’m now going to discuss some mons that have now gotten better due to the ban.

Terrakion to A
Terrakion has been freed from the clutches of whatever Breloom’s hands are. Terrakion still puts a big dent in stall but now he’s just better. It’s just another mon that is now free without Azu and Loom around. I especially see Rockium/Fightinium Terrak putting much more work currently. Scizor can’t safely come in on Terrak anyway because both Z moves OHKO it.
252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 309-364 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Am I the only one who actually didn't mind Breloom? Judging from these comments probably.
Again, I'm going to have to disagree on the Terrakion rise. Just because a punching mushroom that had the defenses of paper is gone does not automatically mean that it is somehow better. Scizor (an even more prevalent threat) still makes Terrakion its bitch on the daily with Bullet Punch, which, once again, brings it down so much that it isn't even funny. About 90% of any offensive Pokemon carries a move that it is weak to, and with its only decent speed and average bulk can only do so much before it is very swiftly killed. While Scizor can no longer safely come in on it, Terrakion still can't switch in on Scizor. There are also more powerful stallbreakers in the metagame, one example being SD Haxorus. Is it powerful? Hell yes, but once again, it's held back by a few crippling weaknesses that keep it in A- for now.

Smallsmallrose · Jun 23, 2018

I personally think we're getting WAY too hasty making noms within less than a day of Breloom's ban. I say we reel things back a bit and give this meta a week or so to stew before we end up overhauling the current VR with nom spam.
Lets crank back to something that's still relevant, shall we?

This was recently brought up for discussion to B-, and I actually AGREE at this point in time. Perhaps all this mon needed to shine was to simplify itself. Before, Tornadus was seen on gimmicks. Like Rain teams, tailwind, agility defiant on teams like webs, there was no real attention brought to the fact this mon just has some REALLY good coverage under its belt. its got a powerful hurricane and moves like focus blast and grass knot that nuke most flying checks. I feel like this mon has some real unexplored potential, and could be a decent flying breaker/cleaner depending on the set, just spamming hurricanes and coverage moves like our other flyings do. But its specific coverage moves and ability to smash through most flying checks are what would set it aside in the competition with mons like Moltres and Pidgeot-Mega.

Jade · Jun 23, 2018

Agreeing with Smallsmallrose, I think we're getting way too hasty with rises/drops with Breloom rising. Anyway, might as well give my thoughts since I haven't text walled in a while.

STAY A

Sharpedo might have gotten better with Breloom leaving, but its only been a day. Spikestacking is actually not in a good spot right now, and it probably won't be until Mamoswine potentially drops. One of the things I dislike about Sharpedo is that it can be revenged by our top 3 revenge killers without 2 Speed Boosts, which can be hard to get since it doesn't offer much, if any defensive utility to switch in, and needs to wait until a mon is weakened enough for it to pick up a kill. Metagame staples such as Infernape, bulky Scizor, Mega Aggron, Cobalion, and even Krookodile soft-checks non-water STAB sets. Speaking of water STAB, if you do decide to use it, you lose out on Ice Fang, which makes your matchup against Mega Altaria, Hydreigon, and more even worse than it already is. If anything, this might be controversial, but I think a drop should be considered. Its always felt out of place compared to the other A mons in my eyes.

STAY B+

Klefki's partner-in-crime may have gotten better with Breloom's departure, but I don't think it's back to its former glory when Mamoswine was around. I listed most of the reasons Spikestack isn't that good in the meta right now, so I'll keep it brief. Normally I don't like predicting the outcome of bans, but with Breloom leaving, Ground types that it hates like Swampert, Hippowdon, Rhyperior, and more will become more prevalent. Breloom was also a decent partner for Spikestack teams, especially CB. Overrall, losing a good partner and Spikestack still relatively the same as it was when Breloom was here convince me Klefki should stay B+ for the moment.

STAY A-

Terrakion is good, but not A good. Its lack of defensive utility aside from being a Knock Off absorber is hard to ignore. Its CB set also isn't that great of a stallbreaker (good, but not amazing), as Alomomola can scout unless you decide to run Toxic. If you do run Toxic, stall with Doublade can take advantage of a Terrakion locked into Toxic. If it is Doublade stall, you're pretty much forced to Earthquake every time to prevent Doublade from coming in, which is easy to abuse. Others have said that Scizor annoys it already, so I won't go too in depth into that. Its very easy to revenge kill unless you run Rock Polish, which is hard to set up due to its aforementioned lack of defensive utility. It's still a good mon, and the Z sets are good, but I think it should stay A- for now.

RISE TO A-

I agree with this nom, but not for the reasons mentioned. Full Trick Room is actually kind of bad right now, as it's 100% matchup reliant and loses to a ton of common things. My main reasoning is Stakataka's splashability: it can fit on pretty much every playstyle except for maybe HO (even then I could see some jank Stakataka HO to beat other HO working). It's also decently versatile, as it can run OTR, Rocks, or even CB which I think is unexplored. Most Ground Types that can wall the OTR set can get Toxiced by the bulky set, and most Steels that wall the Rocks set are beaten by OTR. Its typing, while severely hated on, helps it check non-Electrium Z Latias, Nihilego, Non-Aura Sphere Togekiss, and more. Its 4x weakness to Fighting and Ground is a big liability, but I think the amount of defensive utility it provides in return makes up for it. Rise this underrated monster.

STAY C

]Veil might have lost its big enemy, but should stay C for now. The meta still needs to adapt to Breloom leaving. One of the major problems with veil imo is that it requires 2 members. You then only have 4 more slots to fit at least 2 Scizor checks, a Ground type, at least 2 Latias checks, and more. The recent influx of Rotom-Heat doesn't help either, as it OHKOs Snowslash and can Defog away veil. Another major problem is that Snowslash is the only veil user, so once it dies, you lose the ability to set up your thing the playstyle is centered around in the first place. Scarf Infernape and other Fightings besides Breloom are still a huge problem to Veil. Scarf Infernape especially because it outspeeds Snowslash so it can discourage setting up Veil and easily takes Aurorus down to its Sash. I've never liked Veil in the meta and I think C reflects its faults.

justdrew · Jun 23, 2018

I agree with Juuno and Smallsmallrose. Although Breloom was a strong Pokemon it wasn't the sole reason why these Pokemon are ranked the way they are. There hasn't been nearly enough time to judge how the meta has settled since the ban of Breloom. However, Stakataka is the one Pokemon that immediately feels more promising. Staka is excellent versus offense which made Breloom an imminent threat. With Breloom gone, offense only has NP Lucario and CB Infernape as immediate revenge killers of Stakataka. Staka should rise to A-.

Vileplume definately seems a little less appealing after the Breloom ban especially on stall. Vileplume was the niche alternate check to Azumarill and then Breloom after the rise of Amoonguss. Now that both of those mons are gone Vileplume is not as promising as it used to be. Although Strength Sap is stupidly good, Vileplume seems like an uneccesary choice for most teams. It struggles against Scizor because Scizor U Turns out into something leaving Vileplume low on health and without immediate recovery like Regen. Strength Sap can be played around in some cases. Currently the only valuable roles it has is checking DD Mega Altaria, Cobalion, and Serperior. Vileplume should drop to C.

Smallsmallrose · Jun 23, 2018

itsjustdrew said:
I agree with Juuno and Smallsmallrose. Although Breloom was a strong Pokemon it wasn't the sole reason why these Pokemon are ranked the way they are. There hasn't been nearly enough time to judge how the meta has settled since the ban of Breloom. However, Stakataka is the one Pokemon that immediately feels more promising. Staka is excellent versus offense which made Breloom an imminent threat. With Breloom gone, offense only has NP Lucario and CB Infernape as immediate revenge killers of Stakataka. Staka should rise to A-.

Vileplume definately seems a little less appealing after the Breloom ban especially on stall. Vileplume was the niche alternate check to Azumarill and then Breloom after the rise of Amoonguss. Now that both of those mons are gone Vileplume is not as promising as it used to be. Although Strength Sap is stupidly good, Vileplume seems like an uneccesary choice for most teams. It struggles against Scizor and Strength Sap can be played around in some cases. Currently the only valuable roles it has is checking DD Mega Altaria, Cobalion, and Serperior. Vileplume should drop to C.

I agree with the Staka rise, It was proposed for a rise even IN Breloom meta due to how it well....Staks up vs flyings and dragons. And Breloom's ban may have just been that final push for a mon that was already looking exceptionally promising. Staka could rise to A- just as well if not better than it had the potential to in Loom meta.

I will note that you made some incorrect points about Vileplume, for one, its primarily used on balances, not stalls. Breloom never got to the point that stall needed to deploy a mon like Vileplume to defeat it. It also struggles with Scizor, but most non-Amoongus grasses do in some form. And I'd argue that Vileplume's matchup is still better than certain other grasses' matchups vs it by virtue of strength sap and effect spore. Sure, SD bug moves and Band U-turn do a chunk, but you're probably not harding in Vileplume to take those hits, and it wins many raw 1v1s with Scizor otherwise. It could potentially drop to C with the loss of major niches in Breloom and Azumarill, but its still a catch-all measure for many physical attackers. And while its not super enticing in the current meta, I feel like it doesn't struggle as much as some of the stuff in C either. Its just an average mon with a cute niche, like many of the other mons in C+

Hilomilo · Jun 24, 2018

Ranking Update
I decided to hold off on updating the thread for an extra week this time around due to the Breloom suspect ending around the time the thread would've been updated initially. The ranking council voted on the entirety of the ranks instead of voting on specific nominations made in the thread this time around, which is why some of what's changing received fairly minimal discussion, though nonetheless thanks for the input and I hope you guys enjoy! I'll likely take three weeks to update the thread again next time just because tier shifts may come right around the update otherwise, which could result in potentially immediately outdated changes. Anyways, here's what happened this time around:

Rises

B- -> B

C+ -> B-

C- -> C

UR -> C-

Drops

A -> A-

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C -> C-

Mega Blastoise has picked up some steam in ladder play, with its 4 attacks set particularly emerging as a stronger pick as a wallbreaker than its previous B- ranking would suggest. Dropping Rapid Spin for coverage has allowed Blastoise to significantly improve its matchup against the tier’s popular bulky offense archetypes, while it also benefits from being able to take advantage of a few metagame staples, such as Gliscor, Scizor, and Mega Aerodactyl, more adequately than its main competitors in Volcanion and Primarina due to its better combined bulk and typing, despite the increased opportunity cost.

Talonflame is among the tier’s most currently underrated sweepers, which is why the ranking council ultimately decided that rising to B best represented its current value. By virtue of its typing, Talonflame can handily take advantage of a few of the tier’s most used Pokemon, like Gliscor, Cobalion, Serperior, and particularly Scizor, which allows it to pose a devastating threat against the majority of UU’s common offensive builds. While it tends to struggle against bulkier builds and the ever-viable Mega Aerodactyl, it requires generally minimal support to circumvent these flaws while proving that despite slightly lacking usage, it can perform to the same level of consistency as anything else in B.

Bronzong is beginning to receive more recognition as a surprisingly reliable defensive Stealth Rock setter that’s capable of pivoting into several tier staples, which allows it to take some weight off of teambuilders’ shoulders in a metagame that can be fairly restrictive. It can comfortably check the likes of Mega Aerodactyl, Latias, Nihilego, Mega Altaria, and many other defining forces while utilizing tools like Toxic and Psywave to wear down some of what could otherwise take advantage of it, like Suicune, Kommo-o, and Raikou. Its Dark-type weakness and passiveness can prove troublesome for Bronzong and its team at times, though it adequately offsets these flaws with the current defensive value it can bring to the teams it’s fitted on, which is why rising is justified right now.

Silvally-Steel has been able to distinguish itself from its Steel-type competition enough to warrant rising further since initially finding placement in C-. Its access to room for coverage options like Flamethrower/Ice Beam and particularly pivoting gives it a very defined niche as a specially defensive Steel-type that, in addition to checking what most Steels are usually fitted on teams to handle, is capable of preserving momentum for its team while providing a fair offensive presence, which at times makes it a more comfortable fit on bulky offense builds. Due to this, placement in C properly reflects Silvally-Steel’s niche and the value of said niche.

Juuno excellently specified the usefulness of Diancie’s advantages over its competition in the current metagame and its perks of being fitted onto teams. Its most notable flaw is easily its vulnerability to Scizor, though it provides teams with potentially invaluable role compression as a reliable Hydreigon check, reliable answer to most Fire- and Flying-types, and consistent Stealth Rock setter in one slot. In addition to this, it can prove how customizable it can be with options like Toxic and (Z-)Heal Bell at its disposal, and overall has established enough of a niche as a defensive Stealth Rock setter on balance and bulky offense to warrant placement in the rankings.

Mega Slowbro struggles to as effectively perform in a tier that has seemingly unintentionally adapted to it. The metagame currently favors Grass-types such as Tsareena and Rotom-C that are perfectly capable of powering through it. Moreover, top special attackers such as Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, and Serperior have easy times powering through it while the rises of Chandelure, Togekiss, and Mega Blastoise also work against it. It’s still capable of walling a plethora of the physically offensive metagame and plowing through teams that don’t carry specific counterplay. However, its lacking usage and poor responses to recent trends combine to, for now, rationalize a rank below its main competition in Suicune, which by virtue of Pressure and its pure Water typing, is better suited to work around what the tier is currently throwing at it.

Mandibuzz very recently lost the niche of reliably defensively checking Breloom, which in addition to a lack of usage allowing it to really showcase its worth, justifies dropping into the C ranks. In addition to its overall defensive value decreasing, it doesn’t have much appreciation for the current viability of several Fairy-types, which can keep its niche as a defensive Dark-type from being particularly applicable right now. Overall, it’s just too unproven and lacks appreciation for any particular meta trend to warrant a spot in B-.

Vileplume also lost value upon the tier’s loss of Breloom, as its most specific use was arguably as a defensive check to it. It can still defensively combat a few tier staples, such as Serperior and Mega Altaria, in addition to retaining a unique niche with Strength Sap. However, its splashability on defensive builds has been negatively affected by the loss of a centralizing force that it almost fully stopped, since it now checks a smaller variety of important threats.

Alolan Marowak is simply just a very hard Pokemon to justify using right now. Its terrible typing, lower natural Speed than a large amount of defensive staples, inability to check most of what it should handle on paper, and reliance on Thick Club to do its job all combine terribly and as a result, its use is only justified in niche situations. Due to how team-specific its perks are in comparison to the many flaws it runs into, it’s perfectly represented in C-, as it really is just barely viable in UU.

Mega Sharpedo A -> A+, Klefki B+ -> A-
Mega Sharpedo appreciates that Breloom has left the tier, though this isn’t immediate justification for rising. Spikes itself still isn’t a particularly great play style given that neither Mega Sharpedo or Klefki appreciate the prominence of bulkier builds that carry several Pokemon capable of comfortably dealing with both. The duo can also even struggle against bulky offensive builds given that Klefki is often hard pressed to find opportunities to set up Spikes with Ground-types receiving so much usage, while Mega Sharpedo will still require the removal or weakening of popular threats in Mega Manectric, Togekiss, Mega Aggron, and more to get its job done. Spikes offense could certainly benefit from some of the predicted future metagame trends, though for now it’s perfectly represented with Mega Sharpedo and Klefki in their current ranks.

Terrakion A- -> A
Terrakion’s main struggles in even a metagame without Breloom are still present enough to prevent it from reasonably rising. The argument that Gliscor’s eventual departure will benefit Terrakion isn’t currently applicable for Terrakion given that Gliscor is still in the tier, which alongside the particular presence of Scizor, puts Terrakion in a box as both a wallbreaker and sweeper. It also doesn’t particularly appreciate a lot of the offensive metagame’s ability to overpower it, with presences such as Serperior, Latias, and the majority of Choice Scarf users complicating its usability. While it’s still one of the scarier wallbreakers the tier has to offer, A is a little generous given that its defensive typing can still considerably hold it back.

Stakataka B+ -> A-
Breloom’s departure has certainly influenced some already noticeable metagame changes. However, it’s still too early to detect an increase in presence for Stakataka that is significant enough to justify rising. Its low usage in high level play in particular doesn’t combine super nicely with the fact that several popular defensive Water- and Ground-types can still handily punish Stakataka. Togekiss’s more frequent inclusion of Fighting-type coverage on its sets and Mega Aggron continuing its defensive prowess also disadvantage Stakataka and, for now, further contribute to it staying in B+.

Darmanitan C+ -> C, Entei C -> C-
Neither of these offensive Fire-types will likely establish notable places for themselves in the metagame, though their individual niches are still appreciated enough to make their current ranks justifiable. Darmanitan’s specific advantages, mostly in the form of its greater overall power than any of its competition, were well highlighted in palkia246's post above, while Entei still retains a niche as a fairly strong wallbreaker with the utility of moderately strong priority, status spreading, and greater longevity than a lot of its competition, which it can more consistently use to contribute to teams it’s fitted on than C- would suggest.

Discussion Points

Serperior A+ -> A
This change was discussed a while back and was rejected, but is now being brought up again, with more support from the ranking council to put this change through than ever before. Serperior is still a very centralizing force, though its struggles mostly stem from the metagame being well adapted to it after all these months. Pokemon capable of revenge killing it or tanking even boosted hits and KOing it are seen more than once on nearly any bulky offense team, while stall is also often properly prepared for it with defensive builds more frequently including Pokemon like Moltres. Togekiss’s current presence also hinders Serperior, though despite all of these flaws whether or not its influence on the tier is still enough to justify A+ is certainly not clear and is worth discussing.

Infernape A -> A-
Infernape is still among the tier’s most reliable Choice Scarf users, with its many other viable sets also still proving to be consistent and representative of its offensive versatility. However, its middling power and the presence of several Pokemon resistant to its STAB combination may disadvantage it too much for A to be a reasonable rank at this stage. The particular presences of Gliscor, Latias, and Tentacruel often force its Choice Scarf set into pivoting out as soon as it gets in if these Pokemon are still healthy, while its four-moveslot syndrome and reliance on proper prediction can allow tier staples like Mega Altaria, Primarina, Togekiss, and Suicune to often take advantage of it. Working in Infernape’s favor, however, is the current popularity of several Grass-types, its strong utility to several teams in need of a reliable revenge killer, and potentially just being a generally stronger pick than the rest of A-, which makes dropping a tricky decision worth discussing in depth.

Alolan Muk A- -> B+
Alolan Muk’s biggest issue is how easily chipped it is. While it can still reliably Pursuit trap the majority of the tier’s powerful special attackers, such as Latias, Manectric, and Gengar, it is often only capable of doing this once per match due to its inability to restore its health in any way, and afterward will be too worn down to be put to much more use in a match. Its susceptibility to chip damage is a very abusable weakness right now and rationalizes discussion of a drop into the B ranks, though what it provides to teams could be valuable enough to keep it afloat in A-.

Tsareena B -> B+
Tsareena has a lot to love as an offensive Pokemon right now, and it’s due to its current use that further rising is definitely worth considering. Its Choice Band set is extremely hard to switch into due to its fantastic coverage alongside its powerful STAB Power Whip, as well as its access to pivoting. Meadow Plate sets are also proving their use in the current meta, giving Tsareena a way of acting as a reliable offensive spinner with longevity in addition to its power. It compresses a lot of offensive utility in one slot and due to a lot of defensive Pokemon being weak to its attacks, lacks many reliable switch-ins, though its poor Speed and defensive typing leave it quite prone to offensive pressure.

Doublade B -> B-
Doublade currently seems to have an uncomfortable time fitting itself onto the majority of teams. While it can be a serviceable answer to several physical attackers, like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, and Cobalion, it has pretty significant longevity issues that can prevent it from reliably compressing both the roles of a setup sweeper and defensive answer to various threats. Its major susceptibility to being chipped down in addition to the presence of Hydreigon, struggling to power through the vast majority of prominent defensive Pokemon, and the recent rises of Pokemon such as Krookodile, Mega Blastoise, and Chandelure all hurt it enough to bring dropping to B- into question, though its fantastic defensive utility and decent offensive matchup could very well keep it in its current rank.

Rotom-H B- -> B
The ranking council was again fairly split on this decision, so I figured making it a discussion point another time wouldn’t hurt. Rotom-H can be a fairly strong pick and easy fit right now considering that it checks a unique variety of threats and in addition to this, compresses offensive roles like pivoting and potentially removing entry hazards fairly reliably. The biggest flaw it runs into is its lacking coverage and average power, though its current value in the metagame is worth bringing more attention to with at least discussion as to whether or not rising is currently warranted.

Decidueye B- -> C+
Decidueye lost both a fantastic offensive partner and a Pokemon it was capable of checking fairly well upon Breloom’s ban. It’s due to this that it’s lost some offensive worth and has a bit of a harder time distinguishing itself from its main competition in Tsareena, which is more versatile, bulkier, more immediately powerful, and due to coverage, has an easier time muscling past a lot of the metagame. Decidueye is still a very reliable stallbreaker that several teams aren’t adequately prepared, which is why its drop isn’t clear cut, though returning to C+ is definitely reasonable and worth considering.

Florges C+ -> B-
Florges has been picking up some usage on ladder as a solid alternative to Sylveon on balanced builds. It’s a fantastic answer to a few large special presences, such as Mega Manectric and Mega Pidgeot, while its access to tools such as one-turn recovery, Calm Mind, and Defog give it a lot of customizability and define a solid niche over its competition. While Sylveon often outperforms it on account of a better offensive presence and better mixed bulk, Florges’s tools have been more recognized in recent weeks and talking about where it should land in the rankings is certainly justified.

Freeroamer · Jun 24, 2018

I’m on phone so this’ll probably be short and sweet and a little bit bland aesthetics wise:

Disagree with Serp dropping, it’s one of the single biggest things that scare me at team preview because I know that almost whatever team I’m using and whatever counterplay I have, it could be that one set that invalidates that counterplay and initiates a swing of offensive momentum in my opponents favour. The variety of sets and the different counterplay they beat between subseed, glare norm z, scarf (I dislike this but am coming round to admit it’s a threat), AV, really marks this out as one of the premier threats to common teams within the tier at the moment. Rise of Breloom arguably means as a grass type offensive Pokemon it faces less competition for its use, but I think this is mostly irrelevant compared to everything else I discussed.

Agree with Infernape dropping as a lot of this ranking was done based on ranking the scarf set, which at one point was a great deal more effective and popular than it is now. I actually really really dislike this set right now, it’s lack of power and potential abusability of its STAB moves means it’s almost always forced to click U-Turn lest it give up big momentum to the opposing team, and it’s reliance on Flare Blitz for its fire type STAB means it can be too weak come the end of the game to check the threats it’s required to such as Scizor. I love NP Ape and have been trying to spread the love for the set, but realistically I’m not sure if that set is a good enough reason for Infernape to stay A.

Absolutely agree with Tsareena rising, even with Breloom gone although it lost some of its defensive niche its qualities as a breaker can’t really be ignored at this point, it fits so seamlessly into cores such as Tsareena+Aero that are immediately effective and easy to use. It’s just a Pokemon that will never give you 0 in a game, whether it’s a case of it being used to break open a defensive core or being preserved to keep a Scizor sweep in check with CB HJK, Tsareena will always find use. I don’t really have a lot more to say about this mon in terms of recent meta changes affecting its viability, just think it’s still been undervalued in these rankings and moving it up is a better indication of where it should be.

Edit: I misread the post but yea don’t drop serp consider my post as anti drop.

yeezyknows · Jun 24, 2018

I'd honestly argue the inverse for serp, it could conceivably be placed at S, and at the bare minimum it shouldn't drop.

the emergence of the AV set makes serp so, so good, as it largely invalidates offensive counterplay (lati, hydrei, kyurem), with serp being able to comfortably sponge dracos, fire blasts, and ice beams. leaf storm/giga drain/dpulse/hp fire has such threatening offensive coverage, particularly with rocks up, with the added caveat of serp being able to recover health with giga drain.

different sets still retain their A+ rank viability, with subseed, glare, and z-hyper beam allowing serp to cripple and/or KO defensive counterplay like muk and crobat.

i don't think serp should drop to A, an argument can honestly made for S-rank based on how, in the same vein as loom, serp centralizes/constrains building. were it not for amoonguss dropping i would seriously anticipate a future serp suspect happening as open progresses.

slated · Jun 25, 2018

Gonna try a new format this time around instead of just posting a massive wall of text, feel free to read any and all of my opinions on the discussion points, gonna play around with mons in the post-Loom meta and I might make another nom later on

I'm a little divided on this one. To be honest I've been using Nasty Plot Infernape to great success for weeks (got reqs with it) and I think it's one of the best sets in this metagame. It's brilliant at breaking stall and can set up on a lot of common Pokemon such as Scizor and Serperior. The Choice Scarf set is honestly pretty weak right now like Freeroamer said, and I'm not sure whether or not I would use any other sets - in my experience working with SD Ape, it feels just like a weaker NP ape, and CB ape just lacks in the firepower that either of the setup sets have. Mixed Infernape is still pretty decent, but again, it's not a great wallbreaker as compared to Nasty Plot. Honestly as much as I love it I can't really defend it staying in A, it's a great mon but its matchup against the other mons in S and the A-ranks is pretty mediocre and having only one set that really stands out is pretty rough. It loses almost all the time against Gliscor/Latias/Aero/Malt/Togekiss/Primarina/Suicune and for a few of those it can run gunk to beat them, but this really has no place in either of the setup sets. In general I wouldn't be opposed to dropping it although I do think it's a pretty decent mon right now.

I heavily disagree with this nom. As has been set before it has a load of different sets and does its job incredibly well. I've been using Meadow Plate with Giga Drain to great success in the past few weeks or so (on the same team with NP Ape) but it has so many different successful sets that it's hard to gauge one that performs better than the others. Meadow Plate, SubSeed, Normalium Z, AV, Choice Scarf, even Choice Specs are all viable sets that are incredibly hard to pin down without having very solid checks such as Scarf Togekiss or Crobat. The fact that it also gets defog and has a great matchup against the meta right now as almost every team is running some kind of bulky Ground-type (swampert, rhyperior, hippowdon) means it holds a pretty dominant position in post Breloom UU. I would be more willing to rise it S than drop it to A.

I think this has had a long time coming. Alomuk is good at doing what it does but what it does is very minimal in general and it is very reliant on matchup to do well. In a matchup where the other team doesn't have a specially attacking Psychic or Ghost-type (chandelure, gengar, latias for the most part) alomuk struggles to do much more than maybe switch into a Hydreigon and land a Knock Off. Even in good matchups, where there is a Latias or a Gengar on the opposing team, it's easily worn down by Stealth Rocks and pretty easy to play around. I don't think it's good in this meta whatsoever and I think A- is way too high for it. Honestly I'd even be willing to move it down to B, but B+ is good enough for now.

I really like Tsareena right now. Its CB set has immense wallbreaking prowess and its Meadow Plate Rapid Spin set is a decent alternative for Serperior if teams don't want to stack special attackers. Grass-types have a pretty nice niche right now since, as said before, almost every team is running a bulky Ground or Water-type. Swampert especially is incredibly common and Tsareena can switch in for free barring Scald burns. Additionally, Queenly Majesty is an excellent offensive ability allowing it to beat CB Scizor with Bullet Punch and also beat Aqua Jet users for free like Crawdaunt. It's not quite as useful now that Breloom is gone, but I think Tsareena is versatile enough to warrant B+.

Steel types are incredibly important right now. They're able to check Fairy-types as well as big threats like Mega Aerodactyl and Latias all in one. The problem with Doublade is exactly this: it's a Steel-type, which means it gains competition from a ton of different pokemon such as Scizor, Empoleon, Cobalion, and Mega Aggron, among others. Unless I'm really weak to stuff like DD Mega Altaria I wouldn't usually see a reason to include Doublade on a team right now. I think with the loss of Breloom it also struggles since that was one of its main niches. I think this should drop for now, since its spot in the meta is slipping and maybe if Gliscor leaves and we get Diancie-M it might see a resurgence.

Much of the reason Steel-types are used is for the Flying resistance as well as the Fairy resistance. Rotom-Heat has both of these and it is arguably one of only three viable Electric-types in the tier alongside Raikou and Mega Manectric, although Rotom doesn't take up a Mega slot and can check Scizor a little better being 4x resistant to Bullet Punch. It has its fair share of problems, being easily worn down without an Iapapa Berry, and being completely unable to hit common Ground-types such as Swampert and Hippowdon (although the former can be hit by HP Grass.) It also has some pretty damn serious 4MSS, as it wants to run Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Overheat/WoW/Pain Split/Defog/Hidden Power Ice/Hidden Power Grass and it can only run four of those. I think I'd honestly like to keep it in B- because even though I've had some success with it I think it has its fair share of serious flaws keeping it down.

I honestly don't see a reason to use Decidueye after Breloom is gone. I completely agree with the C- nom. There are so many other viable Grass-types in the tier that aren't as slow as Decidueye or take up a mega slot.

Having a Fairy-type that can comprise the Defog role is cool and all, but Togekiss can do that as well. The main issue with Florges in my opinion is that it's an incredibly passive Pokemon that really only fits on balance teams, and balance is so weak right now that using a Pokemon that is basically just Sylveon but access to a few more defensive options (defog and synthesis) at the cost of losing a ton of offensive pressure is a pretty mediocre option in most situations. I think Florges is alright, but C+ is probably still okay for now.

explodingdaisies · Jun 25, 2018

I have to disagree with both serp AND nape dropping. Serp is ridiculously good. It can muscle through certain checks with sets like Z-BNB. +2 BNB will chunk, if not outright kill plenty of Its checks and punch holes in teams. AV is starting to rise also. It still has a ton of utility moves in leech seed, taunt, glare, knock off, hell even screens. Honestly, a case can be made for it to be borderline S rank.

As for nape. Everyone just slaps on scarf on nape and calls it a day. Yes nape REALLY suffers bad from 4MSS, but it is still extremely good. The NP set is criminally underrated and will rip holes in stall and fat teams and has vacuum wave for offense and imo is still one of the better offensive scizor checks. Yes it needs pursuit support. But then again, lotta other mons do.

I'm on the fence about Tsareena. USUM gave Tsareena some great tools in power whip and knock off but it's kind of a one trick pony. It does provide a nice situational switch in to scizor with it's ability though.

For rotom heat, I'd wait to see if mamo drops. I still prefer cuttom atm. But if mamo drops I do see it rising.

Muk shouldn't drop. It's still arguably the best trapper in the tier. Yes it's easily chipped and it might only trap once per match. But let's be honest here, alotta teams only need that one trap to open things up for other mons.

DiscoDucky · Jun 25, 2018

Muk should still stay at A-. Breloom's departure should allow more flexible teambuilding to a point where slotting Muk isn't a burden. Furthermore, Serp's draft stock is getting better after Breloom's ban, and many of Serp's checks are trapped by Muk: Latias, Manec, and Offensive Moltres. This in turn increases Muk's value to a point where it's probably something worth keeping in A-.

Taptricity · Jun 25, 2018

I know that this is a strange nom but:

Heracross B+->A-
Surprisingly enough, I’m not nomming Heracross for its Guts set but rather, I’m nomming it for its Scarf Moxie set. Scarf Moxie is very underprepared for and can easily clean up the lategame. With a choice scarf, Heracross outspeeds the unboosted metagame and can plow through many mons. You easily can eliminate a weakened mon or or come in on something that your opponent thinks that their mon can beat Hera just for it to be decimated. Here’s the set:

Blue Beetle (Heracross) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
This is a simple set and spread. Megahorn and Close Combat are two very powerful STABS, Stone Edge lures and kills the birbs, and Knock Off is a filler move in case you need it. This sets biggest issue is that I wish that it was more accurate. Missing a Megahorn or a Stone Edge that you’re locked into can be a pain in the ass to deal with and will most likely end with you losing Heracross. Everything else is fine with this set though.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767262922
Here is also a replay that showcases Heracross. Heracross doesn’t do too much (and I also misplayed by thinking that my opponent’s Infernape was banded which led to me losing Heracross) but Heracross was able to safely eliminate Mega Manectric which was my opponent’s best answer to Mega Pidgeot. I was then able to win the rest of the match because of Heracross.

I’ll post more replays if I get more good ones that show off Heracross.

Also special shoutout to Sage for helping me fix the problems that my Scarf Moxie Hera team originally had.

pokemonisfun · Jun 25, 2018

Regarding Serperior:

Should it drop?

No! The AV set is new and useful and should have had a mention in the update but it didn't; that's why it should rise but the update post discusses a drop.

To fill in the gap, I played 15 ladder games with AV Serperior and will play another 15 tomorrow. I saved all 15 games. I won't discuss all 15 games but you can always search the last 15 replays for "pif."

In the highlighted games, I will answer two related questions:

Is AV Serperior useful compared to other sets?
Is the replay evidence for a rise/drop/neutral/not enough information?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767302758

Serperior doesn't get much action until quite late in the game on turn 24, where it easily shrugs off a Signal Beam. It could have threatened to sweep on Scizor because Bullet Punch was a roll in my favor, but I decided to play safe and with some aggressive doubling (I forgot Moltres had U-Turn on turn 27) Serperior comes back in and threatens to sweep again. It would have nabbed a KO on Altaria had it not been for some luck. From this, we can tell yes AV Serperior is useful because unlike all other variants, it could tank a Rotom's Signal Beam + CB Bullet Punch or in my case, a Signal Beam + moves from special Altaria. Is it evidence for a change in rank? I think it's evidence for S rank, because of the incredible work it would have done if it didn't get unlucky. But then again, it's hard to differentiate from being S or just being the main offensive threat.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767313408

Serperior comes in early versus Veil teams to make them decide if they want to badly hurt Serperior or if they want SR. Unfortunately, Serperior gets haxed early but you can clearly tell AV is helpful because it lets me tank a Blizzard. Here, AV Serperior shows it can be a good counter lead. That doesn't really scream S rank at all to me, but getting me an advantageous lead bar hax means Serperior did work still.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767320511

I got a few games with this same Veils user. Again, I use Serperior in the same fashion but my opponent opps for SR instead of heavy damage. Therefore they have to spend several turns weakening their team to play around Serperior again starting on turn 5. Because the team was weakened, it became easier for me to win later, for example, Kommo-o could never Belly Drum safely after taking a Leaf Storm. Again, hard to say if it's S rank or just a top threat for my opponent. But clearly AV helped again as my opponent knew now Blizzard wouldn't KO ad having Dragon Pulse was good for Kommo-o, even though my opponent did play around it successfully.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767322519

By the time Serperior enters on turn 13, my opponent already has an advantage because they played better in the opening phase, exposing an Absol weakness and killing Moltres. However, aggressive switching with Serperior plus getting SR up meant I was able to eliminate Crobat, one of his 2 main counters to Serperior. Unfortunately for Serperior, Nihilego is able to end the dream because of it's Choice Scarf, but the ability to actually tank a Sludge Wave at only 75% is quite impressive and means if I had more damage on Nihilego earlier, Serperior could have won. Tanking the Sludge Wave means AV Serperior was useful, although not useful enough for the win. Whatever the evidence says for ranking, it's clear to me it shouldn't drop based off this game because it was the only Pokemon that gave me a chance to win after the bad start.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767333693

I get fairly lucky turn 1 as my opponent makes a bad prediction, letting Klefki take a Fire Blast instead of what I assume he thought would be a Z Hurricane. Because that was his only good Serperior check, obviously Serperior is primed to have a nice game. It starts sweeping on turn 11 and gets a decisive KO on Scizor. The Serperior set doesn't matter too much as it was bound to do great damage anyways. It doesn't do much after that but only because my opponent forfeits, seeing that Serperior or basically anything will decide the result. Serperior did essential work, though only because my opponent greatly weakened their only switch in turn 1, hard to evaluate what this really means for Serperior.

In sum, these games show that AV Serperior is perfectly viable and do not provide significant or even any evidence that it should drop a rank. More games to come tomorrow.

I would love to hear more in depth reasoning on why the council thinks it should drop. The reasoning Hilomilo put out seems correct but misplaced. As in, yes what was said is true but it doesn't really mean Serperior should drop.

Of course stall teams are adequately prepared for Serperior, it's a top ranked threat and stall is supposed to counter all top ranked threats. Even so, Serperior still can do work versus them, for example, it can beat any Blissey set that switches in with any Serperior set. Yes most bulky offense teams have at least 2 checks to Serperior in revenge killers or things that can tank a move, but that's really the nature of bulky offense, it needs multiple checks for top threats. Practically all of them will also have multiple checks for all three current S rank Pokemon too. Serperior is nice because it works well late game, can surprise many checks with different sets, and heavily abuses SR as many of its checks are SR weak.

Well I played 15 more games like I said I would, most of them are available under "pif" again although my opponent hid a few replays.

Again, I use the games to answer the questions I posed earlier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767827087

My opponent and I are actually using similar teams, Volt-Turn + Krookodile + Moltres + Empoleon are all big similarities. I manage to outmaneuver my opponent in the beginning, getting SR up so Serperior can get an easier attack as my opponent's Serperior checks are quite SR weak. While Z Hyper Beam would have dealt with Altaria more easily, AV shows its still capable of winning as long as it doesn't get frozen which it unfortunately does. Serperior exerts a huge amount f pressure with just having SR support and abuses Empoleon, a bulky water not even weak to Grass. There is no evidence here that Serperior is worse or should be lowered in ranking.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-767836454

My opponent plays fairly well in the beginning, making good predictions, such as landing a CB Ice Punch on Serperior on turn 6. Despite taking nearly 90% damage, my opponent is still spooked (probably fearing Glare/Choice Scarf against Infernape) so they switch in Klefki and ultimately make a likely mistake, paralyzing me instead of killing me. Serperior still gets 1 kill despite my unfortunate Swampert switch in. Although the AV played no role in this, it's still nice to see Serperior put in work despite getting no prior support and coming in on a bad prediction.

Again my opponent plays fairly well in the beginning, which limits my options as they nab a KO on Krookodile with a nice Crawdaunt double switch and get to keep SR in on the opening. Noticing a lot of priority and Dragons, I let Serperior die, perhaps too early, in exchange for some damage on Scizor. This is one of the only games where Serperior doesn't do much work, compared to the rest of the team.

Ultimately these replays don't add any new thoughts, they just support the conclusions I have already spelled out.

Jade · Jun 26, 2018

Hey, it's time for another text wall!

RISE TO B+

Tsareena is a criminally underrated mon that should get more attention. Its best set imo is Choice Band, which is an excellent wallbreaker and pivot. It can also force Scizor to not click Bullet Punch due to Queenly Majesty, which can easily be exploited. Its Rapid Spin Rose Incense set is also good, as it can Spin on the common Ground type rockers while retaining power. Tsareena is extremely annoying for many teams to switch into (Power Whip is such a stupid move if you hit) as well, with its good Grass/Fighting/Dark coverage. A spinner that discourages Spinblockers from coming in with its STAB move is very useful to have, and Tsareena is that. Rise this thing.

STAY A+

pif basically said all that could already be said. Although I personally dislike AV (the stallbreaking capabilities of SubSeed and the utility Meadow Plate Defog provides seems better to me), it's still very annoying to deal with from experience. In fact, it could be argued the opposite, that it could rise due to the AV set and its offensive capabilities. It's also very versatile in terms of what it can run such as Normalium Z, which hits most common Grass resists. Glare is also very underrated, as Dragons that attempt to switch in will get severely crippled. I am also curious for the reasoning for why Serperior is being considered for a drop because honestly, the opposite could be argued.

STAY B

I am also confused as to why Doublade is being considered for a drop. Steel/Ghost is one of, if not the best typings to have, and in this meta it's very good. It checks or counters a lot of things such as Latias, Non-Knock Off Scizor, Non-Fire Blast Altaria, Aerodactyl, and more. It can also fit on pretty much every playstyle (even Doublade stall to beat things like Facade Bewear and Terrakion is a thing), with its fare share of versatility. It can be a wincon with SD, lure bulky Waters with Toxic, or trap Latias with Pursuit. Of course, one of its major flaws is the fact that its so item-reliant, however things like Specs Primarina and some Scarfers are also reliant on their item in order to do their job (although not as crippled). While it doesn't have much longetivity, this can easily be patched up by pairing it with a cleric like Florges or even Umbreon.

DROP TO C+ (OR EVEN C)

Decidueye, in simple words, is garbage. Breloom leaving means it lost not only a good partner, but also one of its main niches. As a stallbreaker, there are much better and more splashable choices and I rarely found myself using it, even in Breloom meta, unless I was building around it. Even then, it was awkward to build around and I felt like I'd be better off with some other Pokemon like the aforementioned Tsareena. Its typing doesn't favor the meta trends with other Grasses being better and Flying types everywhere, its slow, its frail.

STAY A

This was probably the discussion point that stumped me the most. Infernape is amazing, and if anything it got even better with Breloom leaving due to less competition and its checks decreasing in usage. People seem to think Scarf is the only set, which is far from true. Personally, I think the best set is Nasty Plot with Fightinium Z. Not only does it shred fat teams and can retain an offense matchup with Vacuum Wave, but it also annoys most general responses to Scarf Nape like Swampert, Hippowdon. Other underutilized sets include Choice Band, mixed, and even SD can work. Its versatility is the main thing that keeps it from falling to A- imo.

Now onto my own noms!

DROP TO B

Celebi might've been good in Breloom meta, but I feel its lost a lot of its former glory. Of course, the main reason for its dropping is its main niche in checking (or countering if defensive) Breloom has been null since it left. I don't find myself slapping it on teams a lot like I could in Breloom meta, as I prefer other Grass types like Rotom-C. Its typing is also not the best for meta trends for the same reasons as Decidueye and also Hydreigon seeming to become more prevalent with its main check leaving. Latias' omniprescense doesn't help it either. Fire types becoming more popular don't help it either.

DROP TO B+

Seeing Chandelure in A-, even in Breloom meta, has always been weird to me. Its vulnerability to Pursuit is its main flaw due to the ever-present Aerodactyl, as well as others like Krookodile. It doesn't help that Chandelure can't oustpeed either, even with a Scarf. Its Rocks weakness is also a severe flaw, which adds more to the Pursuit weakness unlike Gengar. I also dislike Scarf Chandelure, as it still feels slow to me (can't outspeed Beedrill, can't outspeed set up sweepers...). Overrall, Chandelure is good, but I feel its in the position where it's a rank below Gengar.

DROP TO B-

Mantine is a very awkward mon. It really only fits on Balance, which is not in the best position right now (and will probably get even worse with Mamoswine dropping) due to how passive it is. Not only this, but it can be easy to pressure and is susceptible to things like Toxic or chip damage. It also has low usage (its very close to dropping to RU next update), which further hinders it. It can also suffer from the infamous 4MSS, wanting Toxic, Defog, Haze, or even things like Ice Beam or Air Slash depending on your matchup against things like Gliscor/Heracross.

DROP TO C+

While I use Steelix quite a bit, I feel like it should drop into the C ranks. Its main competition, Mega Aggron, is better in nearly every way (mainly due to its ability, Filter). Its also an easily punishable Electric immunity, as Flamethrower 2HKOs. Its also a worse Scizor check than Mega Aggron unless you run Fire Fang. It also faces competition from the recently introduced Rhyperior as a Ground type, and Rhyperior not only has Rock type, but is a better Scizor check if you're running Fire Punch with Solid Rock.

DROP TO C (even C- works)

Mega Absol, to put it simply, is bad. It takes up a mega slot, it doesn't fit on any team without building around it, its terrible to build around, and there's better and more splashable Pursuit trappers. Its also very frail and doesn't force out any Rockers to abuse its ability, Magic Bounce. Its speed tier is good, but its revenged by pretty much every common Scarfer unless you run Sucker Punch to catch Latias. Even then it suffers from severe 4MSS and SD is just bad.

DROP TO C+

On top of being practically nonexistant usage-wise, it severely dislikes the current meta trends favoring Grass types and Hydreigon's resurgence. Its also rather slow and has to run a lot of speed in order to "check" things like Scizor. It can also easily be overwhelmed due to its lackluster 70 defense. There isn't much to say.

UNRANK

Stoutland has always been underwhelming for me. It has practically no usage and pure Normal isn't the best offensive typing. It really only fits on full sand teams, which are not only niche right now, but also would prefer other members. If you run Choice Band, you're easily punished for whatever you lock yourself into. You're also slower than Scarf Infernape and Latias if you run Adamant and lose out on important OHKOs such as Latias after SR and a 70% chance to OHKO Cobalion.

If you did read this all, thanks for sticking with me, and have a good day!

LORD HELIX 65 · Jun 26, 2018

Thoughts on current discussion topics:

Drop to C+: Agree
I've been asking for this for a while now and I'm glad it has been brought up as a discussion point. Decidueye already suffered from Tsareena's power as a physical grass type and Breloom leaving certainly didn't help it's case, as it lost a good teammate and and a relevant mon it checks. While it has SD and ghost typing unlike Tsareena, it is just a lot weaker and has less coverage than Tsareena, along with a less useful ability. Thanks to Tsareena's ability to run adamant, stronger Stab and attack stat, Tsareena hits a good bit harder with power whip than Decidueye does with leaf blade at +1! The popularity of Hydreigon and fast ghost type like Chandy and Gengar certainly doesn't help either. Frankly, I could see this in C rank.

Drop to B+: Disagree
While Muk may be susceptible to chip and getting worn down easily in a match due to a combination of entry hazards and not great defense, it still provides a ton to team that can not be understated. First, It's AV set gives it insane special bulk and makes it an incredible specially defensive blanket for teams lacking special defense, second, it's typing is great defensively, being weak to only one type, albeit a common one, in ground. Lastly, being able to pursuit trap and kill Latias and absorb it's psychic attacks is just so valuable and it's typing lets it check other prominent threats like Tsareena, Serperior, Mega Altaria, and Togekiss is just great. keep it A-.

Drop to A-: Agree
Tbh, I've always sort of thought Ape was a little overhyped. It is definitely good, but with scarf set it can be rather weak and suffer from 4MSS really badly. While it is versatile, a lot of these sets are walled well by both slowbros and bulky waters. Personally, I think mixed ape is best and does the best job of keeping the opponent guessing, but a Plethora of pokemon just keep it not as good as it could be, such as Primarina, Suicune, Togekiss, and ESPECIALLY mega altaria, who resists every move I wish I could use on mixed ape, but I would have to chose something else to deal with the fluffy bird like gunk shot instead of knot. A lot of relevant threats either shrug off it's attacks or resist it's best moves, and while it is still good, it has trouble with a good portion of the meta game right now, and I think that is a good reason for a drop.

Adaam · Jun 26, 2018

Hi I'm here to support Decidueye despite the overwhelming hate it's getting. I don't see how Breloom leaving is an argument against it since a) it was a shit Breloom check as it did not outspeed and is 2HKOd by Rock Tomb/Bullet Seed rolls, and b) even if it did, how is Tsareena being nommed for a rise despite Breloom leaving? Decidueye's niche over other Grass-types is having access to a stupid powerful Ghost-type STAB with Sinister Arrow Raid, Swords Dance, and good priority in Shadow Sneak makes it harder to force out than Tsareena. Such advantages gives you a far better matchup against faster Pokemon like Chandelure, Latias, and Gengar, and against fat Grass resists like Mega Altaria, Crobat, and Moltres. Decidueye also is a decent spinblocker since it outright beats Tentacruel if it dodges a burn, and Starmie fears Shadow Sneak.

That being said, toss my name in for team keep Serp A+/S that thing is busted. AV takes on so many offensive checks while Leech Seed invalidates defensive counterplay. With SR up it becomes near unbearable and is far stronger than anything in A.

USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

Smallsmallrose

sanguine

friendly fire

palkia246

Pat Labor

Taptricity

dingbat

snek

KM

slayification

Taptricity

LORD HELIX 65

WAZZUPYOSHI

Smallsmallrose

Jade

justdrew

beauty in the struggle

Smallsmallrose

Hilomilo

High-low My-low

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.

yeezyknows

Banned deucer.

slated

explodingdaisies

What's the point of talking if nobody ever listens

DiscoDucky

Taptricity

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.

Jade

LORD HELIX 65

Adaam

إسمي جف

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