Toxicroak - Swords Dance (OU Analysis)

[sora13]

In conclusion, SD Toxicroak does everything the current set does but better. The only thing the current set does on par with the SD set is OHKO LO Starmie (most of the time) with Sucker Punch.

not everything, pursuit and taunt are valuable additions but taunt isn't really needed with the sheer power, but pursuit is really useful as many bulky waters also tend to switch out on sight of Croak, so I would consider incorporating pursuit on sd croak if possible........

I do agree with all of the other stuff.

 

[Luf]

I thought the set looked something like this.

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature [+Atk, -SpA]
-Swords Dance
-Cross Chop
-Sucker Punch
-Stone Edge / Taunt
That was my idea of the moveset. Stone Edge has more utility than Taunt in general, unless your team is really weak to bulky Rotom-a. Pursuit is AC material at best. The only thing it really does is put Starmie in a checkmate position (though most will simply attack, as it's better to get at least some damage instead of dying and getting no damage inflicted).

This set works very well with SD or Agility Lucario because it wrecks all forms of Gyarados (provided they haven't Dragon Danced) with a +1 Stone Edge to the face. It also ruins Rotom-a which is very valuable to Lucario.

It also works with SD Infernape because with the opponents bulky Waters gone, it can simply sweep even without a Swords Dance boost.

It's kind of like the Double Dragon combo in Ubers.

 

[alex 67]

Alright since I'm in the middle of the crossfire I'm not really sure what to do. First off I suppose is I'll switch switch CC and BB since not one person has agreed with me on this. What I do know however is that I'm going to have to slash swords dance somewhere so, @QC where do you want me to put it? One thing I do know though is that my set is not garbage because running all 4 moveslots for offense or taunt is useful because Croak here has a slight case of moveslot syndrome therefore making it viable, in my mind but I'll scratch that if QC wants me to. In conclusion I know the one on site is not fit for OU therefore I will be happy to write to write the analysis, also I just have a question for everyone saying swords dance; how is it going to set that up when it is so frail and is at least 2HKO by almost every mentioned pokemon? That was my main argument and no one commented on that so if someone could please explain to me I'll have a change of heart. Please note that showing a bunch of flashy numbers does not explain how it sets up, since almost everyone is disagreeing I know that I will have to slash it but please explain.

Edit: Well not that I realize that everyone disagrees fuck that, just please answer my question and I will do anything you want me to QC.

 

[sora13]

Alright since I'm in the middle of the crossfire I'm not really sure what to do. First off I suppose is I'll switch switch CC and BB since not one person has agreed with me on this. What I do know however is that I'm going to have to slash swords dance somewhere so, @QC where do you want me to put it? One thing I do know though is that my set is not garbage because running all 4 moveslots for offense or taunt is useful because Croak here has a slight case of moveslot syndrome therefore making it viable, in my mind but I'll scratch that if QC wants me to. In conclusion I know the one on site is not fit for OU therefore I will be happy to write to write the analysis, also I just have a question for everyone saying swords dance; how is it going to set that up when it is so frail and is at least 2HKO by almost every mentioned pokemon? That was my main argument and no one commented on that so if someone could please explain to me I'll have a change of heart. Please note that showing a bunch of flashy numbers does not explain how it sets up, since almost everyone is disagreeing I know that I will have to slash it but please explain.

Edit: Well not that I realize that everyone disagrees fuck that, just please answer my question and I will do anything you want me to QC.

After testing most don't even 2KO SD croak. And even if they do, set up an SD as they attack you the first time, and a SD Cross Chop/Sucker Punch/whatever is usually OHKOing them. If it isn't, you sholdnt be setting up SD you shold straight up attack. SD Croak is more flexible in the sense that it has a choice to just straight up attack or set-up to kill the bulky waters. With both those choices it becomes even beetter at killing the bulky waters. Again you'll miss pursuit, thats the one drawback of using SD croak. But SD croak i find is a bit better. The main thing is not to play recklessly with SDcroak and try to use it as it was intended, not try to go for the sweep like SD Luke. A bulky water killer. Try not to sweep until you kill your bulky water. SD is just a useful tool to kill the bulky water. As long as you do this, you should be fine because if you try to sweep with it, then you are using it as an inferior Lucario/Infernape.

Having said that one advantage, with the other moveset is that sweeping mindset isn't there because there isn't a set-up move so you don't really think of trying to sweep.

 

[RaikouLover]

Toxicroak is cool. I used him in OU alot back when I was pretending to be brock.

Swords Dance is extremely good set. My main issue with it is the physically based OU metagame. Swords Dance Sucker Punch is too sexy tho!

No mentions of Nasty Plot?

Mixed Toxicroak @ Life Orb
-Nasty Plot
-Sludge Bomb
-Hidden Power Fire
-Cross Chop

I'll work on the EVs, shit works though (just watch for tentacruel and Swampert)

Pure Plot @ Life Orb
-Nasty Plot
-Sludge Bomb
-Hidden Power Fighting / Focus Blast (can't remember if he learns it)
-Vacuum Wave

 

[Luf]

Toxicroak is cool. I used him in OU alot back when I was pretending to be brock.

Swords Dance is extremely good set. My main issue with it is the physically based OU metagame. Swords Dance Sucker Punch is too sexy tho!

No mentions of Nasty Plot?

Mixed Toxicroak @ Life Orb
-Nasty Plot
-Sludge Bomb
-Hidden Power Fire
-Cross Chop

I'll work on the EVs, shit works though (just watch for tentacruel and Swampert)

Pure Plot @ Life Orb
-Nasty Plot
-Sludge Bomb
-Hidden Power Fighting / Focus Blast (can't remember if he learns it)
-Vacuum Wave

Yes, it learns Focus Blast. I was thinking of a Mixed Croak set, though I thought it was outclassed by Mixed NP Infernape, but I'll try it out.

 

[alex 67]

Yeah sorry Raikou lover but I am definitely not listing those sets with nasty plot. It is absolutley outclassed by infernape outside of being immune to water and toxic. But those aren't the main concerns for a sweeper. So unless you can give me a valid point over those I am not listing it.

 

[panamaxis]

Offensive suicune runs life orb as its primary option

It runs leftovers nearly all the time despite what the analysis says.

Second your inventing some suicune set. All the sets on site that use rest Crocune and restalk don't even mention moves besides the the listed and ice beam is not even in the AC of those sets.

I did mention that suicune needed an uncommon set to beat it, but like with the above, sure the analysis might not mention it but just by playing the metagame it should be obvious that it does exist though it is uncommon. Taking the analysis in blind faith at face value isn't always a good option (though sometimes it is).

Also on starmie LO ice beam does only around 72% at max

Yeah this is right upon double checking, it seems I made the mistake of giving starmie a +1 s.atk boost (forgot to make it +0 after calcing suicune) so sorry about that.

also I just have a question for everyone saying swords dance; how is it going to set that up when it is so frail and is at least 2HKO by almost every mentioned pokemon? That was my main argument and no one commented on that so if someone could please explain to me I'll have a change of heart.

Well its setting up on these bulky waters + ttar + blissey isn't it? Plus the other thing to consider is how thunderpunch is better than swords dance. You lose hitting gyarados (tenta isn't too common but that too) for gaining the potential to get +2 attack which is a fair trade off I think. Cross Chop has the same damage output as thunderpunch against all waters except that aforementioned two (starmie gets SPed).

So basically, what can this set do that the SD can't? Apart from killing gyarados and 100% killing starmie if you run Cross Chop, Sucker Punch, Taunt Pursuit, I'm just not sure...

Also @ RL, he does.

 

[alex 67]

So Panamaxis do you want me to just scratch my set and write the analysis. I know that someone has to write it because 1. There is none on site and 2. I honestly believe that he deserves one because of his excellent water killing abilities. So my main question is do you think the one on site is good enough to be used in ou and just say in analysis use SD Toxicroak in OU. In my opinion it needs a OU SD set to explain it and I think the the current on site could use a few slashes. But in the end my opinion doesn't matter so what do you think? Also will change this to what I think it should look like. Oh and on a side note doesn't tyranitar OHKO you with EQ?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Also, I'd drop Pursuit for Stone Edge on a SD set, since Toxicroak still outruns defensive Zapdos, Gyarados, and Dragonite, as well as providing excellent coverage with Fighting.

EDIT: Also, Scarftar tends to run SE/Crunch/Pursuit/Superpower (superpower hits Blissey) instead of EQ, and you resist its whole moveset.

 

[TAY]

Low Kick should probably be mentioned somewhere. It deals less damage than cross chop in some significant cases (skarmory, vaporeon, swampert, blissey, jirachi), but deals the same or more damage with perfect accuracy and more PP (useful against cune!) in some important cases as well (Suicune, Tyranitar, Bronzong, Metagross, Snorlax, Mantine, Heatran). No one wants to lose their toxicroak 20% of the time because they miss a tyranitar or snorlax or heatran.

The really major downside is that croak becomes deadweight against Jirachi (can't even break a sub). The other cases of less damage can be played around easily.

 

[alex 67]

Low Kick should probably be mentioned somewhere. It deals less damage than cross chop in some significant cases (skarmory, vaporeon, swampert, blissey, jirachi), but deals the same or more damage with perfect accuracy and more PP (useful against cune!) in some important cases as well (Suicune, Tyranitar, Bronzong, Metagross, Snorlax, Mantine, Heatran). No one wants to lose their toxicroak 20% of the time because they miss a tyranitar or snorlax or heatran.

The really major downside is that croak becomes deadweight against Jirachi (can't even break a sub). The other cases of less damage can be played around easily.

Alright

 

[sora13]

Low Kick should probably be mentioned somewhere. It deals less damage than cross chop in some significant cases (skarmory, vaporeon, swampert, blissey, jirachi), but deals the same or more damage with perfect accuracy and more PP (useful against cune!) in some important cases as well (Suicune, Tyranitar, Bronzong, Metagross, Snorlax, Mantine, Heatran). No one wants to lose their toxicroak 20% of the time because they miss a tyranitar or snorlax or heatran.

The really major downside is that croak becomes deadweight against Jirachi (can't even break a sub). The other cases of less damage can be played around easily.

As long as you don't salsh it with any of the moves and put it in other options this'll be fine because low kick misses on some important targets like Swampert, Vaporeon, Lanturn and some other bulky waters i cant be bothered to mention. The reason you SHOULD be using Toxicroak in OU at all is to take care of bulky waters and with low kick that's not really possible. The other cases are the bulky waters which it is supposed to beat.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

If you're running Thunderpunch, Low Kick is *always* the better option AFAIK, other than Jirachi being a dick. Lanturn is rare at best and not worth screwing you 20% of the time against everything else. Swampert is still hit for base 80 by Low Kick, which is nothing to scoff at. It also hits Suicune, Tyranitar, Bronzong, Gross, Lax, Tran harder, etc.

Honestly, Low Kick is more deserving of a slash than Brick Break at any point in time. I'd rather see it being Cross Chop / Low Kick than Cross Chop / Brick Break.

 

[alex 67]

Alright whatever you want Seven deadly sins what I did was slashed in thunder punch and said in AC to use it if you choose low kick that way you can still counter stuff like vaporeon and is also a good response to tentacruel.

 

[TAY]

Hey low kick is still good against vaporeon and swampert; you make it sound like it makes croak useless, lol. It is really only marginally worse than cross chop in those cases...keep in mind that an 80 base power Low Kick will deal the same damage on average as 80% accurate Cross Chop, discounting critical hits.

Jirachi is the only case where toxicroak is really, really screwed by low kick (and lanturn i guess but it's so rare that who cares)

 

[alex 67]

I didn't really try to make that impression nor do I agree with it. Thunder punch is just used against the lightest waters like vaporeon so you can easily ko it. In fact I would personally prefer this route because as you may have noticed I prefer accuracy over power. Fire blast<Flamethrower for me.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah sorry Raikou lover but I am definitely not listing those sets with nasty plot. It is absolutley outclassed by infernape outside of being immune to water and toxic.

And Swords Dance Toxicroak isn't outclassed by Infernape, Gallade, and Heracross already? The only reason you are using Toxicroak to begin with is for water and poison immunity, so you may as well list Nasty Plot. It is just as powerful as Swords Dance really since OU pretty much ignores special stats these days.

 

[alex 67]

Yeah and that lets it counter bulky waters unlike the listed pokemon. Nasty plot wouldn't do that so well because it would hit there strong Special defense. Your not even trying to take adavantage of moves that toxicroak has and infernape lacks ; your using cross chop, hp fire and sludge bomb which is a rather poor offensive type for ou with all the steels running around and cross chop and Hp fire are completely inferior to flamethrower and close combat. Also infernape has a immunity to will o wisp which means it will never have problems getting through blissey. The reason Toxicroak is viable in ou is because of it's water killing niche without slowing offensive teams down and even outside of that is handy for stuff like choice scarf users weak to sucker punch such as gengar.

 

[Setsuna]

Let's stick to SD Toxicroak for the time being people.

I changed the topic's name to what it should be. And regarding the current status of the OP, I approve. Although I would also like to see some important calculations listed in the comments as well, at least vs. the common bulky Water-types.

Or

Approved (1/3)

 

[alex 67]

Alright thank you Setsuna will do.

Edit: Done also added some additional pokemon he checks. I just fought a rain dance team and toxicroak destroyed over half the team which just contributes to the effectiveness, also let me know if you want any more calcs listed and I'll be happy to do so.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah and that lets it counter bulky waters unlike the listed pokemon. Nasty plot wouldn't do that so well because it would hit there strong Special defense. Your not even trying to take adavantage of moves that toxicroak has and infernape lacks ; your using cross chop, hp fire and sludge bomb which is a rather poor offensive type for ou with all the steels running around and cross chop and Hp fire are completely inferior to flamethrower and close combat. Also infernape has a immunity to will o wisp which means it will never have problems getting through blissey. The reason Toxicroak is viable in ou is because of it's water killing niche without slowing offensive teams down and even outside of that is handy for stuff like choice scarf users weak to sucker punch such as gengar.

Okay, I have a serious problem with just ignoring shit because it doesn't look as good on paper.

For starters, this poison sucks never use it bullshit needs to stop. Poison / Fighting STAB is actually very good, only resisted by Tentacruel and Gengar in OU (oh well you look at that Tentacruel can't fucking touch you)

Secondly, Nasty Plot hits harder than Swords Dance to begin with because of the physically based Metagame. The things about Infernape are irrelevant since Swords Dance / Cross Chop / Sucker Punch / Stone Edge is still inferior to Swords Dance / Close Combat / Stone Edge / Fire Punch, Flare Blitz, Mach Punch. Since I have no idea what I'm talking about, considering I've used both SD and NP Toxicroak and found Nasty Plot to be WAY more efficient, peep these (I even bolded the OHKOs with SR just to highlight shit):

Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Spd/252 SAtk/4 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fighting
- Vacuum Wave / Dark Pulse
---

+2 LO Sludge Bomb vs.:

Min / Min Gyarados: 87-100%
156 HP / Min Gyarados: 78-92%
Max / Min Gyarados: 73-87%
Max / Min Vaporeon: 67-79%
Max / Min Suicune: 63-74%
Min / Min Suicune: 75-89%
Max / Min Zapdos: 82-97%
Specially Def Zapdos: 60-70%
Max / Min Rotom: 44-53% (2HKO w/ SR)


+2 LO Focus Blast vs.:

Max / Min Vaporeon: 89-100%
Max / Min Suicune: 84-98%
Max / Max Skarm: 100% (114% minimum)
Max / Min Blissey: 83-98%
240 HP / 52 SpD Swampert: 99-100%
Max / 88 SpD Hippowdon: 100% (113% minimum)

+2 LO Vacuum Wave vs.:

Min / Min Lucario: 100% (121% minimum)
Min / Min Infernape: 65-76%
Max / Min Scizor: 45-53%
Min / Min Naive Scarftran: 84-99%
Min / Min ScarfTar: 100% (150% minimum)

+2 LO Dark Pulse vs.:

Max / 136 SpD Rotom: 94-100%

Yeah, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. If Swords Dance can post the same efficiency, then ignore this set, but since it can't, Nasty Plot should obviously be given an OU set.

 

[Luf]

Okay, I have a serious problem with just ignoring shit because it doesn't look as good on paper.

For starters, this poison sucks never use it bullshit needs to stop. Poison / Fighting STAB is actually very good, only resisted by Tentacruel and Gengar in OU (oh well you look at that Tentacruel can't fucking touch you)

Secondly, Nasty Plot hits harder than Swords Dance to begin with because of the physically based Metagame. The things about Infernape are irrelevant since Swords Dance / Cross Chop / Sucker Punch / Stone Edge is still inferior to Swords Dance / Close Combat / Stone Edge / Fire Punch, Flare Blitz, Mach Punch. Since I have no idea what I'm talking about, considering I've used both SD and NP Toxicroak and found Nasty Plot to be WAY more efficient, peep these (I even bolded the OHKOs with SR just to highlight shit):

Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Spd/252 SAtk/4 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fighting
- Vacuum Wave / Dark Pulse
---

+2 LO Sludge Bomb vs.:

Min / Min Gyarados: 87-100%
156 HP / Min Gyarados: 78-92%
Max / Min Gyarados: 73-87%
Max / Min Vaporeon: 67-79%
Max / Min Suicune: 63-74%
Min / Min Suicune: 75-89%
Max / Min Zapdos: 82-97%
Specially Def Zapdos: 60-70%
Max / Min Rotom: 44-53% (2HKO w/ SR)


+2 LO Focus Blast vs.:

Max / Min Vaporeon: 89-100%
Max / Min Suicune: 84-98%
Max / Max Skarm: 100% (114% minimum)
Max / Min Blissey: 83-98%
240 HP / 52 SpD Swampert: 99-100%
Max / 88 SpD Hippowdon: 100% (113% minimum)

+2 LO Vacuum Wave vs.:

Min / Min Lucario: 100% (121% minimum)
Min / Min Infernape: 65-76%
Max / Min Scizor: 45-53%
Min / Min Naive Scarftran: 84-99%
Min / Min ScarfTar: 100% (150% minimum)

+2 LO Dark Pulse vs.:

Max / 136 SpD Rotom: 94-100%

Yeah, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. If Swords Dance can post the same efficiency, then ignore this set, but since it can't, Nasty Plot should obviously be given an OU set.

I'll give it a try. What Pokemon does it pair up really well with?

 

[panamaxis]

-Against suicune: this guy is a little more trouble because toxicroak cannot take a boosted ice beam

Toxicroak can take a boosted ice beam but it is 2HKOed so maybe just change the wording around here?

-Taunt should only be used if you have a lot of trouble against pokemon such as Defensive Rotom-A

Don't most defensive Rotom's run willowisp nowadays (because you can't taunt and pursuit...)? Seems to me that you're more likely to kill offensive rotoms with pursuit due to the fear of suckerpunch.

But otherwise this looks great. Providing you fix this up...

Approved (2/3)

 

[alex 67]

Alright thanks panamaxis, so the first point is fixed but how do you want me to rewrite the second point? You will always beat offensive rotom-a with sucker punch or pursuit but for defensive rotom-a who normally runs will o wisp as you said so therefore you need taunt to stop it because it doesn't count as an attack move so then they are forced to attack you and you beat it with sucker punch. So how should I edit that?

Now @RL it does all look pretty convincing I must say but in the most important kos
you use focus blast. Somehow by fate I came up with my signature yesterday and by fate it gets used now and if you miss and your against either Hippo, skarm or swampert you'll be koed without a doubt and then if you use HP fighting you won't have enough power. I'll wait to see what Orly says about the set though. But this is what I'll leave you with: what can this do that nasty plot infernape can't also Infernape could almost identically mirror this set and would have better special attack and speed.

Infernape
fire blast
close combat
nasty plot
grass know/vacuum wave
life orb
64 att/192 SpA/252 Spd

naive

This was the older ev spread but I still use it anyway this Kos almost every pokemon you mentioned and more.