Toxicroak - Swords Dance (OU Analysis)

[alex 67]

Status: Needs GP check. Also if anyone thinks I need to add something important just PM me or post reply.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/toxicroak

[Overview]
<p> At first glance Toxicroak appears to be outclassed in OU. However Toxicroak has a couple things going for it; thanks to his typing and ability he is immune to Water-type attacks and Toxic. This gives him the unique ability to take on a good number of the bulky waters of OU and come out on top, without slowing down momentum which is valuable for offensive teams. He also has Sucker punch which gives him a powerful priority move that has good coverage with his STAB moves. Toxicroak also rips Rain Dance teams apart, being healed by rain and the boosted Water-type attacks. Toxicroak isn’t without his downsides however. He is relatively easy to revenge kill with his lower speed which is mediocre at best. Even with his priority attack it’s easy to find a pokemon who can safely revenge kill him. Also he isn’t the bulkiest Pokemon around and relies mostly on his good typing and ability to switch in. </p>

<p>Despite these minor setbacks Toxicroak is still a great addition to offensive teams who require a good check to bulky waters without sacrificing offensive momentum by using bulky walls to get by them. Underestimate this frog at your peril. </p>

[SET]
name:OU Swords Dance Croak
move 1:Swords Dance
move 2:Cross Chop/Low Kick
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Stone Edge/Taunt/Thunder punch
item: Life orb
nature: Adamant
ability: Dry skin
evs: 252 Atk /4 SpD /252 Spe

[Set Comments]

<p>After one Swords Dance Toxicroak’s attack becomes 684. This allows him to kill bulky waters as a boosted Cross chop will hit anything that doesn’t resist it hard. Anything that does resist it is hit hard by Stone edge or Sucker punch. The idea is to switch in on a bulky Water such as Vaporeon, Tentacruel or Suicune, set up Swords Dance, and if it is foolish enough to stay in you will OHKO it with help from Stealth rock. Against Starmie you should just attack right away with Sucker punch as you can OHKO it without Swords Dance, and Toxicroak risks being 2HKOed by Ice beam. Offensive Suicune can also 2HKO you with a boosted Ice beam and you need a Swords dance boost to OHKO, so you may want to use a powerful revenge killer instead to deal with offensive Suicune. Against Crocune however you can set up with no worries. While this is meant to deal with bulky Waters you still check Gengar and offensive Rotom-A. Gengar will always be OHKOed by Sucker punch and so will Rotom-A 80% of the time after Stealth rock.</p>

<p> The given EVs allow Toxicroak to outspeed all necessary defensive Suicune , Tentacruel and Vaporeon. Max Attack and adamant are used for maximum power. The last slot should be chosen according to preference and your team. If you opt for Low Kick as a more reliable option, you should use Thunderpunch in order to damage lighter Water-types like Vaporeon. Taunt is also viable should your team be weak to defensive Rotom-A or Dusknoir so you can prevent Will-O-Wisp, but you lose an important coverage move.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>Toxicroak has a large movepool but the coverage provided by the listed moves is very much appreciated. Pursuit is somewhat viable for checkmating Starmie without question and is also useful for leaving a dent in bulky Waters should you find them constantly running. Ice punch may be useful if you're confident in your prediction skills as it will hit Flygon, Gliscor and even Dragonite on the switch, but is a weak move in general. Earthquake hits Heatran but does nothing besides that. Finally Poison Jab and Gunk Shot are STAB moves but hit almost nothing in OU super effectively.</p>

<p>To show how powerful this set is here are some calculations, assuming an Adamant nature.</p>
<ul class="damage calculation">
<li>LO +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/252+ Vaporeon 86% - 101.1%</li>
<li>LO +2 Cross Chop vs. 4/0 Suicune 105.3% - 124%</li>
<li>LO +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/252+ Suicune 65.6% - 77.5%</li>
<li>LO +2 Cross Chop vs. 240/216+ Swampert 77.2% - 90.8%</li>
<li>LO +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/168+ Hippowdon 66% - 77.9%</li>
<li>LO Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Rotom-a 84.6% - 99.6%</li>
<li>LO Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Starmie 95% - 111.9%</li>
<li>LO +2 Sucker Punch vs. 252/168+ Rotom-a 104.6% - 123.7%</li>
<li>LO +2 Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Jirachi 62.8% - 74.5%</li>
<li>LO +1 Stone Edge vs. 248/248+ Gyarados 86.5% - 102.3%</li>
<li>LO +2 Stone Edge vs. 252/120 Tentacruel 89.3% - 105.2%</li>
<li>LO Thunder Punch vs. 252/120Tentacruel 67% - 79.1%</li>
<li>LO +2 Thunder Punch vs. 252/252+ Vaporeon 85.8% - 101.3%</li>
</ul>
[Team Options]

<p> Toxicroak needs Stealth rock to secure certain KOs, and it is a good option for offensive teams in general. A lead that can reliably set up Stealth Rock is recommended, such as Aerodactyl or Azelf. Using Pokemon that greatly benefit from the removal of Bulky Waters, such as Gyrados, (space) Heatran, and Infernape. (space) Life orb Heatran and Swords Dance Infernape are the best options though because they also do Toxicroak favors such as taking Will-O-Wisp should he lack Taunt and help him switch in as they attract Water-type attacks. However, they are all weak to Ground-type attacks meaning a Flying-type or levitator is helpful. Toxicroak can also function on a Rain Dance team decently .</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p> Toxicroak does have a huge movepool as mentioned earlier. Rain dance looks good, but Toxicroak may have trouble setting it up. Rock slide can be used as a more reliable option over Stone Edge but it still doesn’t have perfect accuracy and has less power. Toxicroak has Nasty Plot but that is better left for Infernape. Finally Toxicroak has Bulk Up but that is better left for Heracross.</p>


[Counters]

<p> “Countering” Toxicroak is hard as even the mighty Hippowdon is taking around 77% max from a boosted Cross Chop. Therefore the best way to deal with it to just revenge kill it. Anything faster that can take a Sucker Punch and can KO is the best way to go. Choice Band Scizor can do 75% minimum meaning that with a round of Life Orb damage he can almost always KO after Stealth Rock. Choice scarf Tyranitar can do that as well as long as he has Earthquake. Choice scarf Heatran is also a good check as Dry Skin makes Toxicroak weak to Fire-type attacks. Hippowdon can survive the hit and OHKO with Earthquake, then Slack Off the damage later. Gliscor outruns Toxicroak and OHKOes with Earthquake but must watch out for Ice Punch on the switch.</p>

 

[FlareBlitz]

Any physical Toxicroak set should have Swords Dance. Toxicroak's physical Fighting STAB should either be Cross Chop or Low Kick, Brick Break is too weak. I'm not sure how necessary Thunderpunch is given that most common waters can't do anything to you anyway (besides Starmie who fears Sucker Punch). I suppose it helps against Skarmory too, but you might try Ice Punch for hitting Gliscor on the switch or Taunt to beat defensive Rotom-A or something.

 

[Alan]

I played around with Toxicroak too back during the #stark challenge with monofighting and Poison Jab has really good neutral coverage. Ice Punch should def be slashed with T-Punch since it can hit Gliscor and Flygon on the switch as well as grass types. Toxicroak is really cool though. :D

-not qc-

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Gyara and Tentacruel own this set if it doesn't run Thunderpunch, but at the same time, Stone Edge for stuff like Dragonite might be a good slash.

I'm still not convinced about this set, though, considering Toxicroak's meh damage output.

 

[alex 67]

Any physical Toxicroak set should have Swords Dance. Toxicroak's physical Fighting STAB should either be Cross Chop or Low Kick, Brick Break is too weak. I'm not sure how necessary Thunderpunch is given that most common waters can't do anything to you anyway (besides Starmie who fears Sucker Punch). I suppose it helps against Skarmory too, but you might try Ice Punch for hitting Gliscor on the switch or Taunt to beat defensive Rotom-A or something.

Alright I don't see croak using swords dance because then your using like an inferior Luke or Ape as they do that task better because of their speed. As for the stab the majority of Ou are lighter pokemon making low kick a bad option and cross chop accuracy is going to fail you when you need it most. Even so I had it slashed when I wrote this anyway. Brick break is so much more reliable and has the awesome side effect of destroying those super annoying screens. Also I don't really want to even slash anything next to thunderpunch as then it loses its main perk of beating troublesome waters. I suppose pursuit is somewhat expendable for those moves but even pursuit has the benefit of hitting runners and finishing them off or weakening them to the point where they can't wall you anymore.

Gyara and Tentacruel own this set if it doesn't run Thunderpunch, but at the same time, Stone Edge for stuff like Dragonite might be a good slash.

I'm still not convinced about this set, though, considering Toxicroak's meh damage output.

Actually I did the calcs and its the other way around if tentacruel is the toxic spiker you can come close to 2HKO with stone edge even with leftovers and finish it off because even if it had HP electric it's a 3-4 ko
you still beat this one and the swords dance variant at +2 can 2HKO you with poison jab but you have a sure 2HKO with sucker punch and therefore if your health is high enough you can beat it as for Gyrados you can still deal a nasty chunk of damage when you intimidated but yeah it can ko you with earthquake but if your against a offensive gyrados and you manage to avoid intimidate you can easily OHKO with stone edge. So even if you do what I really don't recommend you still beat Tentacruel and adamant gyrados. Also for if you want me to slash it next to pursuit I'll do so,also it has enough power to get the job done. Oh yeah I didn't really say that you beat Gyrados as if it has earthquake and is jolly it will win and I didn't say it won't . Oh and thanks Alan.

 

[Luf]

Even though my opinion isn't really important, SD Toxicroak is definitely NOT inferior to Lucario or Infernape. Toxicroak generally plays as a wall breaker unlike Lucario, can Taunt non-Brave Bird Skarmory and make it set-up fodder, and can counter all forms of Suicune and Starmie without Psychic is huge. It can also counter Rain Dance teams easily! SD Toxicroak keeps a huge amount of offensive momentum with its great typing and movepool, so SD Toxicroak should DEFINITELY be in the OU analysis.

Not only that, Toxicroak could also run a Life Orb set that utilizes Taunt, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Cross Chop which would allow it to put certain Pokemon such as Starmie in a checkmate position.

You have to remember that Toxicroak is resistant or immune to 2 parts of the GFW core of OU.

 

[alex 67]

Even though my opinion isn't really important, SD Toxicroak is definitely NOT inferior to Lucario or Infernape. Toxicroak generally plays as a wall breaker unlike Lucario, can Taunt non-Brave Bird Skarmory and make it set-up fodder, and can counter all forms of Suicune and Starmie without Psychic is huge. It can also counter Rain Dance teams easily! SD Toxicroak keeps a huge amount of offensive momentum with its great typing and movepool, so SD Toxicroak should DEFINITELY be in the OU analysis.

Not only that, Toxicroak could also run a Life Orb set that utilizes Taunt, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Cross Chop which would allow it to put certain Pokemon such as Starmie in a checkmate position.

You have to remember that Toxicroak is resistant or immune to 2 parts of the GFW core of OU.

Yeah thanks orly I'll take that in to consideration but I'm just a little skeptical because infernape has some key advantages over Croak. Speed is probably the most obvious but also better dual stab, an immunity to will o wisp and close combat which is stronger without the turn off accuracy of cross chop. But then again you could argue Croak has a water immunity and just loves water in general unlike infernape who cant stand it and has some other interesting stuff like pursuit so I'm not sure. I'd probably want to ask a few members of QC on that. But your life orb set puzzles me a little bit as couldnt scizor or tyranitar do that better?They are better at using pursuit. I hate to say but thunder punch is probably the most important move on the set as that is the only thing that can take down the bulky waters before they take you down therefore if I were to run taunt over something it could not be that. I'll consider SD for sure though because Flarblitz also mentioned that so thats 2 people that recommended that.

 

[Luf]

Yeah thanks orly I'll take that in to consideration but I'm just a little skeptical because infernape has some key advantages over Croak. Speed is probably the most obvious but also better dual stab, an immunity to will o wisp and close combat which is stronger without the turn off accuracy of cross chop. But then again you could argue Croak has a water immunity and just loves water in general unlike infernape who cant stand it and has some other interesting stuff like pursuit so I'm not sure. I'd probably want to ask a few members of QC on that. But your life orb set puzzles me a little bit as couldnt scizor or tyranitar do that better?They are better at using pursuit. I hate to say but thunder punch is probably the most important move on the set as that is the only thing that can take down the bulky waters before they take you down therefore if I were to run taunt over something it could not be that. I'll consider SD for sure though because Flarblitz also mentioned that so thats 2 people that recommended that.

Even though Toxicroak lacks an immunity to Will-o-Wisp, he can utilize Taunt to prevent himself from being statused and phazed. For example, he can prevent a Skarmory from using Whirlwind with Taunt and set up Swords Dance.

Remember if you don't want to use Blissey or Laturn to counter LO Starmie and offensive Suicune, you can use Toxicroak which greatly benefits offensive teams because he keeps offensive momentum unlike the other two, and his unique typing gives him some very useful resistances (Bug, Fighting, Dark, Rock) and a very important immunity (Water).

 

[alex 67]

Alright thanks again orly Ill actually add your points to this set as they are very good arguments.

 

[Luf]

No problem. Glad to help.

 

[sora13]

oh my god i CANNOT thank you enough. you posted this thread at the perfect time, for me, just when i was contemplating that last slot.

This LO set of yours is pure beast. It was the final puzzle piece for my team and now im winning so much I don't believe it. I can't even start on how good this thing is. The ability to take care of bulky waters is sooo valuable for my team and i think the only one it cant take care of is swampert, which is okay because i have celebi. It's a nasty plot infernape team and the synergy with the rest of the team is amazing. It's great against offense too, with sucker punch and pursuit. This has definitely found a niche on my team and I thank you so much.

SDS, this defenitely is very valuable in a metagame where bulky waters wall so many things and this beast of a toad(or a frog? someone help me with this lol) has the unrivaled ability to take out almost all of them (other than swampert and possible gyarados, depending on if you choose Ice Punch over Thunder Punch and Stone Edge). And it does this with extreme efficiency. Your very own DD gyarados will no longer be hindered by that starmie, choice scarf gengar standing in its way. Inferape(took out n on purpose) middle fingers Vappy, Starmie, and Tentacruel. LO Heatran can Fire Blast all the crap it wants with this waiting in the wings. No more Sub Toxic luring shenanigans w/ Heatran. Sucker Punch and Pursuit is also pretty damn great against offesive teams. decent switch in to tar. Oh did I mention Rain Dance is no longer a problem with me? This is a pure utility pokemon in OU, SD croak is possibly viable but chances are its not going to fit the SDfighter niche people want instead of SDluke or SDape. This is pure utility, but the utility it offers is an extremely useful and it does this with an efficiency that people will like.

This bears repeating but once again, I CANNOT thank you enough for showing me the true capabilities of a poisonous frog with strange claws.

 

[alex 67]

Yes man I know how it feels I set up nasty plot and only have that god damn starfish switching in so I looked and found something that can deal with it. So from now on every time it switches in you know your going to get to say goodbye asshole. Also I will mention SD in AC.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Not going to comment on its efficiency, as I haven't tried it yet. However, your moves should be:
Cross Chop
Stone Edge/Ice Punch
Sucker Punch
Pursuit/Sub/Taunt

Thunderpunch is useless, as Cross Chop hits everything just as hard. 80% accuracy isn't great, but it's worth it for the 33% boost on your main STAB. Without it, you'll have issues with most neutral targets, as even with LO, you'll fail to 2HKO. And Taunt isn't that good. Many Skarm carry Brave Bird, so it's generally a poor idea to Taunt them with something that'll get OHKO'ed. Sub eases prediction and does most of what Taunt did.

Gunk shot might have some use, just because of its power. Poison has okay neutral coverage, and many steels will be apprehensive about switching in. Maybe poison jab as well.

 

[alex 67]

Not going to comment on its efficiency, as I haven't tried it yet. However, your moves should be:
Cross Chop
Stone Edge/Ice Punch
Sucker Punch
Pursuit/Sub/Taunt

Thunderpunch is useless, as Cross Chop hits everything just as hard. 80% accuracy isn't great, but it's worth it for the 33% boost on your main STAB. Without it, you'll have issues with most neutral targets, as even with LO, you'll fail to 2HKO. And Taunt isn't that good. Many Skarm carry Brave Bird, so it's generally a poor idea to Taunt them with something that'll get OHKO'ed. Sub eases prediction and does most of what Taunt did.

Gunk shot might have some use, just because of its power. Poison has okay neutral coverage, and many steels will be apprehensive about switching in. Maybe poison jab as well.

What? Alright ice punch can only hit dragonite and flygon on the switch which is unreliable. Cross chop is unreliable when if your trying to take out a bulky water can fail you when you need it most and I slashed it anyway. Stone edge is pretty much useless if you were going to use it over ice punch and thunderpunch is also good for adamant gyrados which it hits harder then focus punch. Also sub is bad because between life orb,sub and possible sandstorm your health will be gone fast.

 

[Phantom_IV]

What? Alright ice punch can only hit dragonite and flygon on the switch which is unreliable. Cross chop is unreliable when if your trying to take out a bulky water can fail you when you need it most and I slashed it anyway.

.....
Ice Punch also hits Gliscor, Celebi, Zapdos, and hits Rotom-H neutral. Fighting-Rock is pretty good coverage. So is Fighting-Ice.

And you need the power of Cross Chop. To give you an idea of why, Brick Break doesn't 2HKO 0/0 Jirachi on average. Your brick break is weaker than a CB scizor Bullet Punch. Hippowdon is 5-6HKO'ed factoring in lefties.

Taunt is IMO much worse than sub, as most neutral hits KO you, and the things you'll be trying to Taunt (Skarm/Hippo/Swampert) OHKO you.

 

[panamaxis]

So the purpose of this is to beat bulky waters without sacrificing momentum/offensive prowess...

I did this just because I was curious,
Assuming no taunt:
Vaporeon:
if you come in on vaporeon you're still losing: 44.6% - 52.7% is Tpunch to standard wish support so with LO damage you get outstalled assuming you don't crit (even then you may still get outstalled or paralyse and then get FP(s).

Milotic:
if you come in on milotic you're also get stalled: 43.3% - 51.4% to the standard bulky water EVs (248/252 hp/def bold).

Suicune:
Defensive:
You're doing 33.2% - 39.1% to 252hp/def bold suicune with tpunch and if that suicune has Ice Beam its doing 29% - 34.2% back. So you do 81% minimum over 3 turns including leftovers, suicune can win, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to toxicroak here as suicune needs to run rest without sleeptalk or calm mind to beat toxicroak. So this toxicroak will beat defensive suicune most of the time based on the fact that the majority of resting suicune won't be able to hit it.
Offensive:
T-punch manages 52.6% - 62.6% to and 28.1% - 33.3% with sucker punch 4hp suicune while it outspeeds and 2HKOs after a CM on the switch: 55.4% - 65.5%. So Suicune is taking 80.7% - 94.9% after tpunch + SP including SR and leftovers. Suicune wins this.

All of this basically tells me that Toxicroak must run taunt in order to complete its objective, which means..
Starmie:
Unfortunately you're never going to be able to trap this due to taunt being a necessity unless you drop sucker punch for pursuit. Pursuit and suckerpunch will both OHKO the offensive version (95% min) but starmie is doing 77.5% - 91.2% with Ice Beam so you have to predict the hydro pump or spin. But unless you have pursuit you won't beat starmie because it can just switch out and hit croak with an Ice Beam next time on the switch. For this reason you gotta ask whether its more important to guarantee the kill on starmie or not let rotom revenge kill you BUT suckerpunch stops starmie sweeping when toxicroak isn't in impeccable health. In any case....

Taunt is a necessity and therefore pursuit should be slashed with Sucker Punch and not Taunt.



***What you have to answer for me is how is this better than the SD set at beating bulky waters and if it isn't why should we use this at all over the SD set.

 

[alex 67]

So the purpose of this is to beat bulky waters without sacrificing momentum/offensive prowess...

I did this just because I was curious,
Assuming no taunt:
Vaporeon:
if you come in on vaporeon you're still losing: 44.6% - 52.7% is Tpunch to standard wish support so with LO damage you get outstalled assuming you don't crit (even then you may still get outstalled or paralyse and then get FP(s).

Milotic:
if you come in on milotic you're also get stalled: 43.3% - 51.4% to the standard bulky water EVs (248/252 hp/def bold).

Suicune:
Defensive:
You're doing 33.2% - 39.1% to 252hp/def bold suicune with tpunch and if that suicune has Ice Beam its doing 29% - 34.2% back. So you do 81% minimum over 3 turns including leftovers, suicune can win, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to toxicroak here as suicune needs to run rest without sleeptalk or calm mind to beat toxicroak. So this toxicroak will beat defensive suicune most of the time based on the fact that the majority of resting suicune won't be able to hit it.
Offensive:
T-punch manages 52.6% - 62.6% to and 28.1% - 33.3% with sucker punch 4hp suicune while it outspeeds and 2HKOs after a CM on the switch: 55.4% - 65.5%. So Suicune is taking 80.7% - 94.9% after tpunch + SP including SR and leftovers. Suicune wins this.

All of this basically tells me that Toxicroak must run taunt in order to complete its objective, which means..
Starmie:
Unfortunately you're never going to be able to trap this due to taunt being a necessity unless you drop sucker punch for pursuit. Pursuit and suckerpunch will both OHKO the offensive version (95% min) but starmie is doing 77.5% - 91.2% with Ice Beam so you have to predict the hydro pump or spin. But unless you have pursuit you won't beat starmie because it can just switch out and hit croak with an Ice Beam next time on the switch. For this reason you gotta ask whether its more important to guarantee the kill on starmie or not let rotom revenge kill you BUT suckerpunch stops starmie sweeping when toxicroak isn't in impeccable health. In any case....

Taunt is a necessity and therefore pursuit should be slashed with Sucker Punch and not Taunt.



***What you have to answer for me is how is this better than the SD set at beating bulky waters and if it isn't why should we use this at all over the SD set.

Alright I'll switch up the slashes but I have to say in some of this you switched it up to your favor. For example Offensive suicune runs life orb as its primary option which would make it lose and even if some how it survives with 6% health you can very easily revenge kill that with anything faster also you never toook in account in might have took stealth rock twice. Second your inventing some suicune set. All the sets on site that use rest Crocune and restalk don't even mention moves besides the the listed and ice beam is not even in the AC of those sets. Also on starmie LO ice beam does only around 72% at max which means it can survive even with stealth rock, also I mentioned Infernape to lure out water attacks for a free switch. I have no clue where you get the figures 77-91, as for the first two I might have overlooked this and will fix it up in the slashes and AC and mention the possibility of pursuit +sucker punch for checkmating starmie. Now for your question I'd love to answer but which SD set are you talking about. I think its SD Toxicroak but can you please clear that up?

 

[jumpluff]

Offensive Suicune nowadays runs Leftovers. I wrote that set and I used Life Orb at the time, but Lefties is better imo.

 

[Setsuna]

Alright I'll switch up the slashes but I have to say in some of this you switched it up to your favor. For example Offensive suicune runs life orb as its primary option which would make it lose. Also even if some how it survives with 6% health you can very easily revenge kill that with anything faster also you never toook in account in might have took stealth rock twice. Second your inventing some suicune set. All the sets on site that use rest Crocune and restalk don't even mention moves besides the the listed and ice beam is not even in the AC of those sets. Also on starmie LO ice beam does only around 72% at max which means it can survive even with stealth rock. I have no clue where you get the figures 77-91, as for the first two I might have overlooked this and will fix it up in the slashes and AC and mention the possibility of pursuit +sucker punch for checkmating starmie. Now for your question I'd love to answer but which SD set are you talking about. I think its SD Toxicroak but can you please clear that up?

Allow me to, give you a tip: take QC suggestions in a different way, and don't be like "hey you're inventing this and switched it up to your favor" -- that's not plausible. On with the bold part of this quote, I advise you to read, carefully, the sets that are on-site for Suicune before saying something else; I'm pretty sure that the RestTalk one mentions two extra moves apart from the main set.

Finally, panamaxis asked for SD Toxicroak, the only SD set that this Pokemon has on-site.

On with the set, I pretty much have the same qualm as panamaxis': why shouldn't one use SD Toxicroak instead of the proposed one in the OP of this topic?

 

[alex 67]

Alright sorry I didn't realise that one but crocune does not. Anyway my apologies on that. Now I'll answer the question. The reason you wouldn't use swords dance as many of those waters come close to koing you so therefore you wouldn't really have the time to set. Also they would probably be scared off if you set up swords dance right in their face. Most of all however is that this Toxicroak that is trying to assassinate certain waters needs this combo of moves. For example you drop taunt you'll have a harder time against certain pokemon and that lets stuff like defensive rotom-a burn toxicroak. You drop thunder punch you'll have hell trying to get through vaporeon because even a +2 sucker punch will deal less than 50% on standard. Also there is no ou analysis on site and I would be happy to write it. Sorry about that again Panamaxis.

 

[Luf]

Alright sorry I didn't realise that one but crocune does not. Anyway my apologies on that. Now I'll answer the question. The reason you wouldn't use swords dance as many of those waters come close to koing you so therefore you wouldn't really have the time to set. Also they would probably be scared off if you set up swords dance right in their face. Most of all however is that this Toxicroak that is trying to assassinate certain waters needs this combo of moves. For example you drop taunt you'll have a harder time against certain pokemon and that lets stuff like defensive rotom-a burn toxicroak. You drop thunder punch you'll have hell trying to get through vaporeon because even a +2 sucker punch will deal less than 50% on standard. Also there is no ou analysis on site and I would be happy to write it. Sorry about that again Panamaxis.

Swords Dance is superior. Let me show you some calcs

LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/252 Bold Vaporeon <86% - 101.1%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 4/0 Suicune <105.3% - 124%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune <65.6% - 77.5%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/252 Relaxed Swampert <77.2% - 90.8%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 112/12 Metagross <97.6% - 114.9%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 236/0 Metagross <89.4% - 105.8%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Cross Chop vs. 252/4 Skarmory <82.6% - 97.3%>

LO Toxicroak +2 Sucker Punch vs. 252/252 Bold Rotom-A <107.2% - 126.3%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Starmie <190% - 223.8%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Sucker Punch vs. 252/252 Bold Starmie <106.8% - 125.9%>

LO Toxicroak +1 Stone Edge vs. 0/4 Gyarados <147.4% - 174%>
LO Toxicroak +1 Stone Edge vs. 248/248 Impish Gyarados <86.5% - 102.3%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Stone Edge vs. 0/0 Dragonite <174.6% - 205.6%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Dragonite <146.1% - 172%>
LO Toxicroak +2 Stone Edge vs. 252/120 Tentacruel <89.3% - 105.2%>

*Damage calculations assume an Adamant nature.*

The current LO set lacks the ability to actually break through threats it was meant to; Vaporeon, Suicune, Starmie, and Swampert. Even without Thunder Punch, a +2 Stone Edge will OHKO the standard Tentacruel with Stealth Rock 100% of the time. The current also lacks the ability to break through Metagross as well, which proves a Swords Dance set IS worlds better.

 

[Setsuna]

I still don't understand why SD Toxicroak isn't the way to go about all this... Additionally, these calcs posted above show "real-time" damage that Toxicroak scores on the common bulky Water-type Pokemon of OU.

 

[Luf]

Let me show you damage calcs for your set.
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune <32.9% - 38.9%>
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 4/0 Suicune <52.9% - 62.6%>
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 188/252 Bold Vaporeon <44.4% - 52.5%>
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 252/252 Bold Vaporeon <42.9% - 50.6%>
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 252/252 Relaxed Swampert <38.6% - 45.5%>
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 112/12 Metagross <48.6% - 57.8%>
LO Toxicroak Cross Chop vs. 236/0 Metagross <45% - 53.3%>

LO Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0/0 Starmie <95% - 111.9%>
LO Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 252/168 Bold Rotom-a <52% - 61.8%>

LO Toxicroak Stone Edge vs. 252/120 Tentacruel <44.8% - 52.7%>
LO Toxicroak Stone Edge vs. 0/0 Dragonite <87.3% - 103.4%>
LO Toxicroak Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Dragonite <73.1% - 86.5%>
LO Toxicroak -1 Stone Edge vs. 0/4 Gyarados <66.5% - 78.5%>
LO Toxicroak -1 Stone Edge vs. 248/248 Impish Gyarados <39.2% - 46.3%>

LO Toxicroak Thunder Punch vs. 252/120 Tentacruel <67% - 79.1%>
LO Toxicroak -1 Thunder Punch vs. 0/4 Gyarados <99.1% - 117.2%>
LO Toxicroak -1 Thunder Punch vs. 248/248 Impish Gyarados <58% - 69.2%>

*All damage calculations shown use an Adamant nature.*

As show by the calcs here, the current LO set does very disappointing damage. It cannot even guarantee a OHKO on the standard Gyarados without Stealth Rock. Bulky Gyarados has NO PROBLEM surviving one Thunder Punch. This set cannot even check Pokemon it was meant to effectively because of the lackluster damage. CroCune will simply stall all of your Cross Chop/Thunder Punch PP, Vaporeon will stall you with Wish, and Swampert will simply KO you with Earthquake. Can you even imagine what Brick Break will do to these threats? Let me show you.

LO Toxicroak Brick Break vs. 188/252 Bold Vaporeon <33.5% - 39.5%>
LO Toxicroak Brick Break vs. 252/252 Bold Vaporeon <32.3% - 38.1%>
LO Toxicroak Brick Break vs. 4/0 Suicune <39.5% - 46.8%>
LO Toxicroak Brick Break vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune <24.8% - 29.2%>
LO Toxicroak Brick Break vs. 252/252 Relaxed Swampert <29.2% - 34.4%>

 

[sora13]

Although the damage calcs are impressive and convincing, pursuit is pretty valuable and more than just killing is weakening. This LO toxicroak weakens most of the time, but usually doesn't kill. The reason weakening IMPO is better is when you switch in your say SDApe to set-up the opponent Tyranitar(example) is more likely to switch to the weakened Tentacruel that can't take a boosted CC. This is because they think" why should i let t-tar die when i have this nice infernape counter here?" and so they switch as you sd. And you slaughter their team. But if you killed cruel with that croak or whatever. That t-tar is gonna desperately go for an eq, thinking "well im gonna die anyways, let me get a free switch in for the next poke". and that means no sd, which might mean no sweep.

Again there's a lot of argument for this, so before i theorymon too much i'm going to test sd croak and see how good it does compared to the LO set i've been using. I advise you all to do the same and test both sets, because we can theorymon all we want while the battlefield might tell a different story.

 

[Luf]

Although the damage calcs are impressive and convincing, pursuit is pretty valuable and more than just killing is weakening. This LO toxicroak weakens most of the time, but usually doesn't kill. The reason weakening IMPO is better is when you switch in your say SDApe to set-up the opponent Tyranitar(example) is more likely to switch to the weakened Tentacruel that can't take a boosted CC. This is because they think" why should i let t-tar die when i have this nice infernape counter here?" and so they switch as you sd. And you slaughter their team. But if you killed cruel with that croak or whatever. That t-tar is gonna desperately go for an eq, thinking "well im gonna die anyways, let me get a free switch in for the next poke". and that means no sd, which might mean no sweep.

Again there's a lot of argument for this, so before i theorymon too much i'm going to test sd croak and see how good it does compared to the LO set i've been using. I advise you all to do the same and test both sets, because we can theorymon all we want while the battlefield might tell a different story.

The current LO Toxicroak set is simply too weak to break down bulky waters like it was meant to. Most bulky waters have a way of recovering from blows and can stall the current set with no problems. CroCune will simply Pressure stall you and Vaporeon will Wish+Protect stall. Swampert will outright kill you and Offensive Suicune will simply Calm Mind once on the switch and 2HKO with Ice Beam. This current set does nothing better than SD Toxicroak. It lacks the power to even guarantee a 100% chance of OHKOing standard Gyarados after Intimidate even with Thunder Punch without the use of Stealth Rock. It also fails to 3HKO CroCune (I think, I haven't checked).

However, SD Toxicroak can simply 2HKO CroCune 100% of the time without Stealth Rock. SD Toxicroak can also OHKO Rest+Sleep Talk Gyarados with Stealth Rock.

In conclusion, SD Toxicroak does everything the current set does but better. The only thing the current set does on par with the SD set is OHKO LO Starmie (most of the time) with Sucker Punch.