Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[jackuzzler]

First of all, it's pretty obvious transfer moves are not coming back, and the mechanic coming with home seems to exist solely as a quality of life feature for transferring mons between games multiple times. That being said, I will be making a list of the mons that are coming with HOME and what I would vote on them. I'm also sticking with solely Ban, or No Ban. I think there should be some things suspect tested as soon as the meta settles, but a lot of that also depends on if we retest Tera, but this list will be made with Tera in mind obviously. I also only explained a few of these as some of them are relatively self explanatory

BAN - This mon has very few checks, and was one of the best abusers of Tera when it was in the meta. It could tera defensively with very good natural bulk in order to tank hits in order to power up Rage Fist, which basically allows it to check what it wants to check. I do think this mon would be manageable in a non tera metagame however, and could be retested upon that possibility in the future. It is important to note that Zoroark-H is now in the tier which it wasn't when this was originally quickbanned, which has an immunity to both of Annihilape's STABs, which is hilarious. But one counter does not justify an unban in my eyes, unless Tera is gone in the future.
& BAN LAST RESPECTS
BAN - While Home gained one real check for the Choice Specs variant, and that is Diancie, which is obviously just not a good mon and is very outclassed in OU. Heatran can switch in if it's choice locked into overheat or fire blast, but it gets 2hko'd anyway by dark pulse.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-241 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 140-166 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This just demonstrates it's extremely potent power and respectable special bulk as well.
UNBAN - I think this thing should be on a short short leash, but I think Home gained a solid amount of checks for it (though those may be banned) including but not limited to, Zamazenta-C (I personally would like to keep it banned but I have a feeling it may be unbanned to start), Magearna, Urshifu-RS, Samurott-H and Heatran should also help though they are extremely scared of Sacred Sword coverage.
BAN - Would be fine without Tera, but isn't with it.
BAN
BAN
BAN
UNBAN - Not only serving as a Chien-Pao check if left in the tier, I think it would be healthy. We have a severe lack of fairies in the meta and we don't lack checks for it right now IMO, and I'm not at all experienced in the SS metagame and admittedly, it was clearly unhealthy there. But I do look at the pool of mons in SV right now and wonder if it's worth giving another shot, albeit on a short leash.
BAN - Pretty self explanatory, I've seen some people saying this should be allowed back into the tier, but I think people just forgot how absurdly broken Palafin is, especially Bulk Up + Taunt sets, and Choice Band in rain as well.
BAN - This mon would be completely manageable without Tera, but we all know what a monster this would be with Tera. It'd be a waste of time to let it into this tier.
BAN
BAN
BAN
BAN - I still think, despite the tools we have right now to deal with it, the bulk and power level is too strong for the tier, but I'd be willing to suspect it to allow it into the tier, or even to start with it and suspect to ban it.

 

[taziathegreat]

Everyone's talking about potential threats, I'm interested, what do you think will FALL OFF in OU after Home drops

Iron threads
Creuledge
Hydrigeon


Are three that definitely come to mind for me.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Everyone's talking about potential threats, I'm interested, what do you think will FALL OFF in OU after Home drops

Chomp, Breloom and Treads should drop, too many flying and fairies are coming to the tier and those are struggling already.

 

[awyp]

Chomp, Breloom and Treads should drop, too many flying and fairies are coming to the tier and those are struggling already.

I think if they don't get any moves that they will most likely drop to UU at this rate (at least after HOME release)

 

[Unknown Warrior]

You just acknowledged they haven't allowed transfer moves in VGC since gen6, despite them being usable for casual play and casual versus. So why are you then acting like these moves being accessable easily for casual play makes an impact on official comp when they were already not going to be legal? It was like this last gen. Transfer moves persisted but couldn't be used casually. There's no reason it wouldn't be the same here. This isn't a balance change because it doesn't affect VGC to begin with. Just casual play.

Honestly the reason I think they just wipe is because if they don't, they'll need to either:
A) make a system to legalise a transferred Pokémon (à la Battle Tower wiper)
B) Exclude transferred Pokémon again
... and GameFreak has been nothing if not cutting corners lately.

Also, citing precedent is pretty ballsy after the Gen with Dexit, culled moves (RIP Pursuit and Return) and games that already normalised moveset wiping (BDSP/PLA).

Honestly, if I'm transporting myself into the headspace of a GF employee I can't but help to ask "why bother?": movexit already made like a third of all moves unusable anyway, Home supports and stores multiple movesets now and if we still maintain them we'd have to factor in complex checkers. Especially since most people who ACTUALLY play Casual on cart aren't using Knock Off Weaviles, they're using a team of 6 Arceus.

 

[turd2]

Unban Annihilape. He was never tested during Zoroark-H's existence (immune to both STABs).

The rest: keep them banned.

 

[Moyashi]

Also, citing precedent is pretty ballsy after the Gen with Dexit, culled moves (RIP Pursuit and Return) and games that already normalised moveset wiping (BDSP/PLA).

Honestly, if I'm transporting myself into the headspace of a GF employee I can't but help to ask "why bother?": movexit already made like a third of all moves unusable anyway, Home supports and stores multiple movesets now and if we still maintain them we'd have to factor in complex checkers. Especially since most people who ACTUALLY play Casual on cart aren't using Knock Off Weaviles, they're using a team of 6 Arceus.

You know they can do what they did last gen for official battles right?

Also can people seriously stop citing BDSP and PLA as precedent of anything? One was a spin off that was poorly put together, the other literally had not even half the existing moves so of course it wouldn't allow certain moves in. Neither Dexit nor move culls (pursuit and return) are at all proof of anything when it comes to transfer moves. It feels like just preconceived notions about how things are rather than how they actually are. Especially as many moves completely removed were redundant or never got used.

That last paragraph, no offense, isn't much of an argument. It feels more like you're projecting your preconceived view of GF onto them and how you THINK they'd be about this.

 

[Unknown Warrior]

You know they can do what they did last gen for official battles right?

Also can people seriously stop citing BDSP and PLA as precedent of anything? One was a spin off that was poorly put together, the other literally had not even half the existing moves so of course it wouldn't allow certain moves in. Neither Dexit nor move culls (pursuit and return) are at all proof of anything when it comes to transfer moves. It feels like just preconceived notions about how things are rather than how they actually are. Especially as many moves completely removed were redundant or never got used.

That last paragraph, no offense, isn't much of an argument. It feels more like you're projecting your preconceived view of GF onto them and how you THINK they'd be about this.

Fair enough, we'll see on the 24th. Hope you're right.

 

[Moyashi]

Fair enough, we'll see on the 24th. Hope you're right.

I mean I'll say this to be fair: I absolutely could be wrong. Anything could happen. I was just speaking from how I saw it and also from what I've heard from supposed reliable insiders. And I apologize if at any point I was rude at all.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Everybody saying of that Chien-Pao will be unbanned, I'd just like to ask you this: what kind of defensive checks are we getting that are better than Dozo and not already up for debate on whether they'll be allowed (Urshifu, Magearna) AND that doesn't fear it's fighting coverage? Meanwhile, the return of all the good fliers will give Cheems a lot more good matchups and will restrict the tier a lot more than it feels like it did in pre-Home SV OU. Sure, we will be getting a lot more offensive checks and priority users. However, offense struggles to withstand this 135 base speed pokemon, and priority users have to deal with STAB Sucker Punch and Ice Shard off of effectively 170~ base attack AND bolstered by both Tera and Swords Dance or Choice Band.

 

[UnusualBoy]

Hopefully with all the birds, fairies and Heatran the ugly cat will drop to UU. Praying for that

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Hopefully with all the birds, fairies and Heatran the ugly cat will drop to UU. Praying for that

People about to realize the heatness of the Tpunch/Low Kick set I submitted to The Next Best Thing

 

[Alternator]

Unban Annihilape. He was never tested during Zoroark-H's existence (immune to both STABs).

The rest: keep them banned.

I know (hope!) that this is just a meme, but offensive teams could already handle Annihilape reasonably well, it was defensive teams that just didn't have any good options.

 

[turd2]

I know (hope!) that this is just a meme, but offensive teams could already handle Annihilape reasonably well, it was defensive teams that just didn't have any good options.

Zoroark-H's existence turns taunt/sub Annihilape into a match-up fish. You are literally playing 5v6 against any team with Zoro-H.

Yes, that Annihilape set still bullies stall... but that set is not going to be prominent as long as Zoro-H has any reasonable amount of usage.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Zoroark-H's existence turns taunt/sub Annihilape into a match-up fish. You are literally playing 5v6 against any team with Zoro-H.

Yes, that Annihilape set still bullies stall... but that set is not going to be prominent as long as Zoro-H has any reasonable amount of usage.

Zoroark-h isn't prominent and is probably only OU from New Toy Syndrome. It also fits mainly on HO, if at all, which is a teamstyle Annihilape already struggles against. If it's truly threatening to Annihilape teams, they will just slot in Night Slash to completely kill it. It also needs only one of taunt or substitute to bully stall. Besides all this, any pokemon that completely and totally annihilapes (lol) an entire playstyle while being pretty great into other matchups outside should be tested, just as a matter of policy.

 

[artificialdeath]

Zoroark-H's existence turns taunt/sub Annihilape into a match-up fish. You are literally playing 5v6 against any team with Zoro-H.

Yes, that Annihilape set still bullies stall... but that set is not going to be prominent as long as Zoro-H has any reasonable amount of usage.

Beyond the fact that "one mon checks [broken threat] so it's not broken" is faulty as we've seen with stuff like Mandibuzz and SpDef Tar for Spectrier, the problem is that Zoro-H mainly fits on the types of offensive teams that Ape matched up poorly into even when it was allowed.

 

[awyp]

Zoro-H eats Ape....


Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist

Okay lets see it does...but how can you easily adjust this set to make Zoro not be a threat at all? Oh I see remove taunt for any other attack lol. (Zoro is fragile as hell) so picking a move isn't the issue especially when you tera to take on the Shadow Ball.

Beat up Ape anybody?

 

[Nish the Great]

Zoroark-H's existence turns taunt/sub Annihilape into a match-up fish. You are literally playing 5v6 against any team with Zoro-H.

Yes, that Annihilape set still bullies stall... but that set is not going to be prominent as long as Zoro-H has any reasonable amount of usage.

Having one or even multiple usable mons immune to your moves has never really been a justification for something being bad, for example look at eq/toxic glisc (popular every gen glisc existed), psychic/fighting reuniclus in msab metas. And anyways, while you are playing 5-6 vs zoro-h teams at worst, you're also basically playing 6-0 vs defensive teams.

 

[turd2]

Zoro-H eats Ape....


Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist

Okay lets see it does...but how can you easily adjust this set to make Zoro not be a threat at all? Oh I see remove taunt for any other attack lol. (Zoro is fragile as hell) so picking a move isn't the issue especially when you tera to take on the Shadow Ball.

Beat up Ape anybody?

If you remove taunt, Annihilape no longer beats stall. Which is the complaint I was responding to (and main reason it was banned).

 

[turd2]

Having one or even multiple usable mons immune to your moves has never really been a justification for something being bad, for example look at eq/toxic glisc (popular every gen glisc existed), psychic/fighting reuniclus in msab metas. And anyways, while you are playing 5-6 vs zoro-h teams at worst, you're also basically playing 6-0 vs defensive teams.

I never said Annihilape would be bad. I said it (probably) wouldn't be banworthy.

Deserves a re-test IMO.

 

[turd2]

Zoroark-h isn't prominent and is probably only OU from New Toy Syndrome. It also fits mainly on HO, if at all, which is a teamstyle Annihilape already struggles against. If it's truly threatening to Annihilape teams, they will just slot in Night Slash to completely kill it. It also needs only one of taunt or substitute to bully stall. Besides all this, any pokemon that completely and totally annihilapes (lol) an entire playstyle while being pretty great into other matchups outside should be tested, just as a matter of policy.

If Annihilape slots in Night Slash over taunt/sub, then it no longer destroys stall.

This is why Annihilape deserves a re-test. The meta has changed.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Now obviously some Pokémon’s are so strong they’ll be banned in any Tera or non Tera meta

but if Tera were restricted, and all Tera types were disclosed at team previews…

Then these would probably be worth suspecting:

- dolphin man: you’ll be able to know if your among us is actually able to check it or not (if it’s a grass resist Tera), or if you’re going to have to keep the pressure on it all game (water Tera)

- espathra: it’s much easier to deal with it when you know if it’s relying on fighting or fire type Tera blast, or whether it’s the standard fairy

- annihilape: it’s strong, but there’s lots of hard hitters that out speed it, and you’ll know if you can or not based on its chosen Tera type

Idk why we're even entertaining the idea of banning tera at this point. It's obvious that most of the bans we've had were irrespective of tera, and even with the others it was only one of several contributing factors. Imo banning tera would just be lazy at this point.

 

[awyp]

Idk why we're even entertaining the idea of banning tera at this point. It's obvious that most of the bans we've had were irrespective of tera, and even with the others it was only one of several contributing factors. Imo banning tera would just be lazy at this point.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Idk why we're even entertaining the idea of banning tera at this point. It's obvious that most of the bans we've had were irrespective of tera, and even with the others it was only one of several contributing factors. Imo banning tera would just be lazy at this point.

Tera has been one of the aspects that caused almost every single pokemon we've had banned to be banned. I'll go through them to prove my point
Palafin: Used Tera Water to kill everything and Tera Steel + Bulk Up to beat its normal checks (a common theme throughout these bans)
Flutter Mane: Used Tera Steel/Fire to beat priority users
Chien-Pao: Used all of Dark, Ice, and Fighting Tera to get past checks like Dozo or Garg
Shed Tail: Tera on everything behind substitute allowed them to get 1 more setup turn or survive revenge killing attempts behind a substitute. Could also be used on the passers for more consistent Shed Tail.
Espathra: wouldn't have fire/fighting coverage so it would be handled by Ghold and many bulky Darks like Gambit
Chi-Yu: Used Tera Fire to get past many potential checks like Clod or Garg, as well as losing Fighting weakness to stifle revenge-killing attempts from stuff like Breloom or Pawmot
Houndstone: Used Tera Fighting to deal with the normals and dark types that hindered its sweep
Bundle: Tera Ice blows everything up
Please, don't disrespect the anti-Tera side by saying banning Tera would be "lazy". We think banning Tera will lead to a better metagame, so please respond with actual arguments if you want to be taken seriously

also, side note:

If Annihilape slots in Night Slash over taunt/sub, then it no longer destroys stall.

This is why Annihilape deserves a re-test. The meta has changed.

If you remove taunt, Annihilape no longer beats stall. Which is the complaint I was responding to (and main reason it was banned).

I never said Annihilape would be bad. I said it (probably) wouldn't be banworthy.

Deserves a re-test IMO.

you can put all of these in one post instead of posting 3 different times within 2 minutes

 

[Moyashi]

If Annihilape slots in Night Slash over taunt/sub, then it no longer destroys stall.

This is why Annihilape deserves a re-test. The meta has changed.

The meta hasn't changed negatively for Ape beyond ZoroH existing and as has been said (and you couldn't offer a counter argument for), having one answer doesn't make a mon that was broken previously, suddenly balanced.

Idk why we're even entertaining the idea of banning tera at this point. It's obvious that most of the bans we've had were irrespective of tera, and even with the others it was only one of several contributing factors. Imo banning tera would just be lazy at this point.

It's obvious? So why is the opinions on what makes many mons problematic split? All of Annihilape, Espathra and Chien Pao are broken because of Tera, while plenty of mons are borderline broken because of Tera (Kingambit, Volcarona, Garganacl, Dragonite, Baxcalibur), not to mention the actual controversial aspects of the mechanic like freely flipping matchups, the way Tera inflates the list of threats you have to check.

And even mons who weren't directly broken by Tera still were examples to show why the mechanic is controversial. None of Flutter, Palafin, Houndstone, Chi-Yu were outright broken by Tera but they helped to show unbalanced issues it has. Whether it was using Tera to double down on stab and further limit the few viable counterplay options, using Tera to deny revenge killing attempts, using Tera to turn a would be check into set up fodder, and there's even Shed Tail which mons could terastilize behind and gain more turns with little counterplay to.