In this case, I think it does. Annihilape was banned for one specific reason: stall had no answer for sub/taunt + bulk up + STABs + different potential teras.
That set is a liability now that Zoro-H exists.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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That set is a liability now that Zoro-H exists.
Except that we've had mons that stall really can't handle since Adaptability Crawdaunt and that was fine. Annihilape wasn't banned purely for its ability to dismantle stall, it was banned for requiring swift offensive action to prevent it from killing 3 of your pokemon which could just be negated while making itself stronger with Tera, which makes it hard for balance to deal with. I'd also like you to answer the arguments that Zoroark-H only fits on HO, which Annihilape struggles against anyway, and that Zoroark-H is a niche pick anyway.
Balance, stall. You know what I mean. Annihilape was banned because the taunt/sub + bulk up set destroys defensive teams. But that Annihilape set is a liability now that Zoro-H exists.
I'm currently 1922 on the ladder as "meme legend 420" with Zoro-H on my team. I think he's fantastic. 3 immunities, 2 of which are the most powerful attacking types in the tier (ghost and fighting). He is definitely powerful enough to influence the sets that Annihilape can viably run.
the thing is—and this is coming from someone who still thinks annihilape is broken in the current meta—h-zoro isn't just "an answer". it's the answer, to the point where if it hadn't already been designed before annihilape i would have suspected it was specifically tailor-made to beat the thing. before it existed, annihilape always (literally always) ran bulk up + rage fist + fighting stab + [taunt/sub/protect/rest]. it didn't run coverage because it didn't need coverage. but the existence of even a single thing that hard walls that set, especially when that single thing can disguise itself as anything else on a team, makes the standard annihilape set no longer an instant-win button. again, i'm not saying annihilape is balanced, but you're definitely understating the effect that zoro-h's existence has on it—it extends to the teambuilder, which affects annihilape's matchup against other stuff too
1: Zoroark is far from the uncounterable catch-all against Annihilape teams. When making an Annihilape team, you plan around this thing. Sure, it completely walls standard Annihilape set, but walling one of your pokemon doesn't make the matchup unwinnable, especially on something as frail and prediction reliant as Zoroark.
2: You may have been using Zoroark on your HO team, good for you. However, just statistically, most people ARE NOT. If you look at the usage stats, you will see that there among the qualified playerbase, Zoroark-H is just barely making the cutoff for OU, and many more standard HO picks like Glim, Volc, Ace, Moth, Bax, Ceru, Pult, etc etc etc are all not only making it, but thriving. It's a mon that only appears on 4.7% of teams, the style of which you already have a disadvantages against and would need to plan around when using the Ape, don't forget. Meanwhile, balance and Stall are doing a lot better in the tier, as evidenced by Skeledirge, Clodsire, Pex, Ting-Lu, Corv's places in the tier, all higher than it.
2: You may have been using Zoroark on your HO team, good for you. However, just statistically, most people ARE NOT. If you look at the usage stats, you will see that there among the qualified playerbase, Zoroark-H is just barely making the cutoff for OU, and many more standard HO picks like Glim, Volc, Ace, Moth, Bax, Ceru, Pult, etc etc etc are all not only making it, but thriving. It's a mon that only appears on 4.7% of teams, the style of which you already have a disadvantages against and would need to plan around when using the Ape, don't forget. Meanwhile, balance and Stall are doing a lot better in the tier, as evidenced by Skeledirge, Clodsire, Pex, Ting-Lu, Corv's places in the tier, all higher than it.
Defensive teams aren't easily fitting the frail Horoark for obvious reasons. It's an offensive tool and being forced to run it only further shows why Ape is so broken. And as has been stated multiple times, one pokemon that could be called an answer is nowhere near enough to make something healthy. Zoro isn't nearly common nor splashable enough to even fill that role. Also randomly flexing your ladder elo doesn't validate your argument. People acknowledge ZoroH is solid. But it's a pokemon for very specific teams. ZoroH itself can be easily revealed too through entry hazards, and once the jig is up it's very easy for the Ape player to dance around.
In conclusion: no, the standard Ape set isn't a liability with Zoro existing. A mon it realistically will see on offense/HO (playstyles that weren't as troubled by if) and almost never defense, so it doesn't have to change anything.
I agree that the tera mechanic is controversial. Its a game changer for sure. But for some players like myself it’s what draws my interest into playing this gen.
The fact you can flip matchups is appealing to me. Such as Tera Flying my Magnezone and Tera blasting and killing the Great Tusk across me as it Earthquakes.
Or having the ability the destroy ur checks such as using Tera Fire Eruption from Typhlosion and 2hit ko’ing the enemy Toxapex.
By playing the metagame consistently you get a feel for what teras are popular and need to account for. Popular ones like Tera Flying Gambit, Tera Water Gargnacl, Tera Fairy Skeledirge, etc. Okay so now I choose what pokemon or countermeasures that give me a chance to overcome a variety of situations.
I feel the opinions of Pro-Tera players shouldn’t be disregarded either. A lot of us like it because its fun and is a new aspect of the game that we can mess around with.
Something like tera-preview could be a compromise for both sides. I just dont want tera completely gone.
The issue with this logic is that fun is subjective. We don't tier around fun because of that, we tier around having a balanced, competitive game. And a balanced, competitive game fundamentally cannot be decided by a mechanic that allows you to flip your matchups and beat your counters with no opportunity cost whatsoever. I, for one, don't want games to be decided by who brought the correct tera type and used it to steamroll the enemy before they could handle it.
If Rage Fist reset every time you switched out, and there were more good stallmons that could put some kind of pressure on it (either offensive or just having a fast status move) I'd maybe agree with this, but bulkier ape variants with taunt generally win the war of attrition just by virtue of RF's ability to snowball so quickly. That's kind of the inherent problem with ape - it disproportionately punishes opponents for attempting to make progress one way (using offensive moves) while generally managing to prevent them from doing it the other way (status moves, specifically WoW and Toxic)
You’re right fun is subjective. I might be having fun teraing my Hydreigon into steel and flash cannon your Iron Valiant as you moonblast and die, making you hate the mechanic.
I would say that there is opportunity cost with using Tera. The definition of opportunity cost is the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. Say for example I have Tera Fire on my Kingambit to counter Volcarona or other fire types. By choosing Tera Fire I’m missing out on the opportunity to choose another option say Tera Flying or Tera Dark.
We don’t get to choose our Tera Type on the fly and have to choose one beforehand. I have to consider the metagame and choose my Teras wisely based on what I’m trying to beat/counter. There is opportunity cost in what Tera Types I choose or which Pokemon I choose to Tera.
Another example is say I Tera Grass my Glimmora to beat a great Tusk. There is opportunity cost in that because I although I killed the tusk, alternatively I could have saved my one time tera for later in the match for a different Pokemon and it could have been more useful.
Annihilape - Uber: Only way to make it manageable is to ban Tera
Basculegion - OU: Strongly advocating for a Last Respects ban
Chi-Yu - Uber: At this point it's become copypasta but Tera Fire Fire Blast 2HKOs Max SpDef Blissey blah blah blah
Chien-Pao - Uber: Never been a fan, I think he's very one dimensional in a boring way
Espathra - Uber: See Annihilape
Flutter Mane - Uber: she's so crazy! crazy we can't take her anywhere lol
Houndstone - OU: See Basculegion
Iron Bundle - Uber: penguin goes brrrr
Landorus-I - OU: Just for the lolz of Day One, I can hear FSG saying "The OU player base seemed to have learned nothing as they allowed Landorus Incarnate back in the tier and it ended up getting banned to the surprise of absolutely no one"
Magearna - OU: she's so crazy! we can't take her anywhere lol but actually wanna see her tear up the tier for a day
Palafin - Uber: Only counter/revenge killer (im not a nerd i dont know terminology) I can think of is Grassy Glide Rillaboom (and not even that if the dolphin outspeeds right?) and that's not in the game as far as we know
Regieleki - OU: He sucks ass lmao, if Tera Ice Eleki gets popular, Revenge Killer Bullet Punch Scizor handles it
Spectrier - Uber: horse goes brrrr
Urshifu-SS - Uber: Never liked him in the first place, can take his brother with him for all I care, as others say SD+Taunt is insane
Zamazenta - OU: doggo goes brrr in a moderate and reasonable way
Zamazenta-C - Uber: At least in the beginning, his stats are impressive but he's got his shortcomings, I'd say let's try base form and then we can't talk about it
Basculegion - OU: Strongly advocating for a Last Respects ban
Chi-Yu - Uber: At this point it's become copypasta but Tera Fire Fire Blast 2HKOs Max SpDef Blissey blah blah blah
Chien-Pao - Uber: Never been a fan, I think he's very one dimensional in a boring way
Espathra - Uber: See Annihilape
Flutter Mane - Uber: she's so crazy! crazy we can't take her anywhere lol
Houndstone - OU: See Basculegion
Iron Bundle - Uber: penguin goes brrrr
Landorus-I - OU: Just for the lolz of Day One, I can hear FSG saying "The OU player base seemed to have learned nothing as they allowed Landorus Incarnate back in the tier and it ended up getting banned to the surprise of absolutely no one"
Magearna - OU: she's so crazy! we can't take her anywhere lol but actually wanna see her tear up the tier for a day
Palafin - Uber: Only counter/revenge killer (im not a nerd i dont know terminology) I can think of is Grassy Glide Rillaboom (and not even that if the dolphin outspeeds right?) and that's not in the game as far as we know
Regieleki - OU: He sucks ass lmao, if Tera Ice Eleki gets popular, Revenge Killer Bullet Punch Scizor handles it
Spectrier - Uber: horse goes brrrr
Urshifu-SS - Uber: Never liked him in the first place, can take his brother with him for all I care, as others say SD+Taunt is insane
Zamazenta - OU: doggo goes brrr in a moderate and reasonable way
Zamazenta-C - Uber: At least in the beginning, his stats are impressive but he's got his shortcomings, I'd say let's try base form and then we can't talk about it
I hope and fucking pray that hat falls off a cliff and ends up being sent to uu usage wise
Just want to point out that if having exactly one hard counter was enough to make a Pokemon balanced, Genesect would never have been banned. Annihilape is broken with or without Zoroark-H, requiring a specific Pokemon in order to beat it, especially once that isn't exactly a top-tier threat, is just silly. At least Heatran was always extremely good on top of walling Genesect, Zoroark-H is so much harder to justify on teams, and much constrained in terms of what it can do and where it can actually fit. Do we really expect defensive teams to have to slap a random Zoroark-H on to not instalose to Annihilape?
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Also, Anihilape can very well use Night Slash in place of Taunt if Zoroark-H ever becomes widespread. Even if it is not optimal, it will most certainly be played in this case.
Tangrowth: exists (might have knock off too)
Toxapex: exists
Rocky helmet: existsyou can’t endlessly taunt as they switch or choose a move, at some point it’s a 50/50 if you bulk up or waste PP.
and stall running an offensive or bulky tank type Pokémon is not a new concept.
Example: dragon tail garchomp, getting wishpasses if necessary, or with rest.ghost type garganacl was mauling the most recent stall iterations. Didn’t see too much fuss.
People need to take it easy on the gatekeeping. These forums have a lot of gate keeping kinda posts.
except that it just... bulks up to +6 and drain punches, healing rocky helmet chip, until you go into your unaware user and then it gets taunted and forced to boost rage fist's BP
you can’t endlessly taunt as they switch or choose a move, at some point it’s a 50/50 if you bulk up or waste PP.
and stall running an offensive or bulky tank type Pokémon is not a new concept.
ghost type garganacl was mauling the most recent stall iterations. Didn’t see too much fuss.
People need to take it easy on the gatekeepin
by forcing out the rage fist and cycling fighting resists/helmets whilst doing damage back you’re weakening ape into KO range. And eventually your offensive or tanky Pokémon can KO it. This isn’t a new concept.
pretty sure after leftovers are knocked off and some helmet cycling is thrown into the mix, tangrowth can straight trade hits with it whilst it’s forced to use rage fist since drain punch won’t even dent it. Trading your tangrowth for the STOLL Killa sounds like a deal to me.
you could argue there’s some 50/50’s. but stall relying on calling 50/50s right isn’t a new concept either. See crawdaunt, etc.
there’s even techs like magic bounce, counter, etc. heck, hatterene could switch in turn 1 and nuzzle it lol.
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Breloom
Ceruledge
Cinderace (or it stays in OU in a much more Pivot/Utility kinda role)
maybe Glimmora? (like doesn't sth like Poison Touch Sneasler or even Overqwil outclass it?)
hopefully Hatterene
Hydreigon
Slowking
Ting-Lu????? not really
and fiiiiiiinally H-Zoroark
also what about rises from the lower tiers? I can see Greninja rising to OU again with Battle Bond (maybe not really lol) or sth like Magnezone to counters steels, Scream Tail as bulky support, maybe Polteageist/Indeedee/Armarouge if PsySpam returns strong with Psychic Seed Unburden Sneasler...
So on stall, run a (special) pokemon that can infinitely switch into ape's drain punches and can OHKO it. I don't think you realize how narrow this list of pokemon is, because anything less than an OHKO and he's just switching out, coming in on one of the many status moves or weak attacking moves you have, and Drain Punching to heal back. Gholdengo? 40-47% with SPECS with Tera Water. Specs Pult? Not even a guaranteed 2HKO with any of his moves. Even Iron Moth's Psychic or Dazzling Gleam isn't enough to 2HKO WHILE NOT TERA'd. That's not even to mention adding something like this makes your team, as a stall team, significantly worse. What should you replace with an offensive pokemon just to make sure you don't auto-lose to Ape? Either Clodsire or Blissey, and now you can't handle powerful unboosted special attacks or can't deal with setup? Dozo, so you insta-lose to any boosting physical threat? Either Pex or Alo, so now you can't deal with Garg anymore? Oh, and if you're relying on attacking moves on any of your non-offensive pokemon to beat any threats, like Liquidation on Dozo, you can forget it. Ape just switched in and you gave him a 100 bp ghost moves that chances are that your offensive pokemon can't deal with. Quoting from the ban reasoning, "This is a very common way Annihilape spirals out of control against teams that don't overprepare for it, and sometimes even those can be very much overwhelmed."
Oh, and this is what happens in the tangrowth matchup lol.
Annihilape uses Bulk Up!
Tangrowth uses Giga Drain!
Annihilape lost 15-19% of its health!
Annihilape now 2HKOs you with Rage Fist (assuming, as you do, that leftovers have been knocked already, which is far from guaranteed in gen 9)
OR
Annihilape uses Bulk Up!
Tangrowth uses Power Whip!
Annihilape lost 25-29% of its health!
Annihilape uses Bulk Up!
Tangrowth uses Power Whip!
Annihilape lost 18-22% of its health!
Annihilape uses Bulk Up!
Tangrowth uses Power Whip!
Annihilape lost 14-17% of its health!
Annihilape uses Drain Punch!
Annihilape heals 16-19% of its health!
It literally stalls out Power Whip with Drain Punch, assuming all Power Whips hit lmao
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just FYI not here to argue,
quickly tho: the example I used with 3x giga drains from tangrowth does about 50%, in theory the ape user can just bulk up or try and drain punch back after a bulk up or 2. But then each turn it’s not taunting, it’s risking sleep powder or leech seed. And if it taunts and takes another 17% from tangrowth. Ape needs +2 with 2 hits taken to 2HKO tangrowth. So worst case scenario for tangrowth is getting 3 hits in (and dealing knock off + giga drain + helmet damage (~15% + 34% +34-50% ). even if some of apes hits are drain punches and it doesn’t use taunt at all, it’s going to have a hard time. 3x bulk ups are needed just to heal back helmet damage, and at 3 hits from tangrowth you wanna be nuking everything with rage fist anyway.
it might force out a Tera fire and lose (in theory), but then for eg if your backup-strong hitter is garchomp, you’re forcing it out or revenging later.
it needs 3x bulk ups to outheal helmet damage. 3 rounds of helmet damage is coincidentally about 50% too. Rage fist eventually KOs the tangeoeth user, although you have a toxapex up your sleeve that you can switch in for more helmet damage or to deny drain punch healing! Eventually you need to hit the Pex to 2hko it with rage fist, although you’re taking a number back.
long story short, as the ape user if you’re not switch cycled on with correct 50/50 predicts, you’re pulling one of them down eventually. At the cost of being sub 50% HP.
the logical play for the ape user is try and get 1 or 2 bulk up boosts, take some hits and nuke everything with 150-200BP rage fist. But somewhere in that sequence, there will be 50/50s. Like the stall user switching into rocky helmet pex on the second rage fist attack (that would have 2hkod tangrowth), or using leech seed and then regenerator cycling it until it’s forced out. Etc
ape user might win, but then is revenged. And you traded for the best stall killer.
ps: not advocating that annihilape doesn’t shit on stall. Simply stating that stall has options. Also being strong vs stall and decent vs offence shouldn’t be grounds for a ban. I think annihilape is a tera restriction away from being worth re-testing. If you know it’s tera beforehand it could potentially make it balanced.
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Yes, Zoro H is a big deal for this set, but I don’t think that Annihilape’s legality has to rely on the existence of one Pokémon that beats it. And I know balance can run Zoro, but is that enough to justify Ape if it still beats stall? Furthermore, is there any reason why Ape couldn’t be on teams with multiple dark types to counter Zoro? (especially if Chi-Yu and/or Chien-Pao are unbanned)
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Annihilape, Chien-Pao, & Espathra all bring unique issues outside of Tera which were addressed in their respective suspect/quickban threads. Saying they were broken "because of Tera" is misleading because as I alluded to in my initial post it's only one of several reasons. I'm not sure why you even mentioned the mons in your second paragraph. As you stated, they are broken totally irrespective of Tera. The fact it makes something that's already broken, more broken, is not an argument against it. Shed Tail is also banned so that's irrelevant.
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