Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
One could say the same thing about weather, it seems.Smogon just won't keep up with the times.
One could say the same thing about weather, it seems.Smogon just won't keep up with the times.
That's true, although I think GameFreak made a mistake with weather-inducing abilities. They're just asking for a weather-inducer to be included in every battle across all play styles: Singles, Doubles, Triples, and Rotation.One could say the same thing about weather, it seems.
First I would like to apologize for taking out some of my frustration out on you in my last post.It was not necessary.However, the post I quoted does seem to suggest that people don't know what they are doing when it comes to being SR prepared.@ dragonrider
Good sir I am not missing the point... I understand some people can say why ban drizzle but in the same accord not ban sr? I also understand that drizzle only affects a small amount of pokes compared to SR. Please go read the drizzle ss thread before you make a comment like that... It is not truly a comparable arguement. although both moves change the metagame, the entire metagame switch to ss teams is not the same as using sr. And I just used charizard and volcarona as examples because in my experience they are the most talked about pokemon being drastically affected by SR. I acknowledge there are alot of pokes affected by it.
Also I am not saying that people havent come up with strategies to get around it. On the contrary... most players who realize they keep losing to some aspect of the game usually tweak their team to be less vulnerable to it. Which is why it is not usually those players complaining about it.
Most people's arguement is "look how many pokemon i cant use or dont want to use just because of SR". I just disagree with that logic. I use the pokemon I want to use whether eing SR weak or not I just use a strategy and hope for the best. Your not going to win every game you play no matter how good you are. Sometimes your @ a disadvantage just based on your team make up vs your opponents. IF you find yourself constantly losing because of one factor, most good players devise a strategy to get around it...
I almost feel bad, but I can already feel, that the people who support stealth rock will only really say that they use those factors to their advantage, instead of seeing them as mutualy disavantageous. Wouldn't you love a way to wear down their walls by 25%? Wouldn't it make some pokemon broken if you took SR away, and made them less susceptable to priority ect? People in general have learned to play with them, not against them, so it really is an uphill battle for those of us who see the logic that "good flying type can beat it. Others that could be worth it, all of a sudden aren't"I share your sentiment on the last part.I use which Pokemon I want regardless of the SR weakness.Heck, I made a team of all my favorite Ice and Fire types just to use my favorites.The point that is trying to be made however, is that SR puts 4 types at a disadvantage just be existing on the field.The extra damage restricts them in their roles.Defensive Pokemon aren't as defensive if they lose 25% just by coming in to play compared to one that comes in with 12% damage.Offensive Pokemon are also worn down faster by the extra damage making them more prone to priority or revenge killing then their non-SR weak counterparts.That's what my stand on it is.
WoW's not a particularly good comparison. While I don't PvP in WoW (I'm a PvE guy, though I haven't really raided much this expac yet), wearing resilience doesn't exactly equate to using up a team slot on one of the few guys that learn Rapid Spin. Maybe if you said there was a comp that required a Frost Mage's snares to beat, then that would be valid, but even then, since WoW is an MMO, things change all the time. While you can't ban something there like you can in Pokemon, things get nerfed and buffed and renerfed frequently. If Pokemon could be patched like WoW, we'd probably have seen SR get nerfed for a bit to at least see the impact, but only online games work like that.idk... I dont think that swift swim has to do with luck or hax... same goes for hydration.
I think everyone here wants a balanced game @ the end of the day... I know that I do.
Coming from being a player of many different games (call of duty, halo, WoW, capcom and namco fighters, etc...) I have seen a lot of online competitve play.
I am inherently against banning stuff in general, until it has been utterly proven that it is broken. To the point where the game is pretty much not playable unless you take "THESE SPECIFIC STEPS".
Pokemon is a great game to me because even in its current form, trickery and strategy and prediction are the most important aspects of being successful. I think we have all been in battles where SR has decided that battle. No one denies that it the single most damaging move in the game.
But in my experience, the lack of or presence of SR... or the things that are needed to counter it or play around it.... have not significantly reduced the play of the game to the point where i am absolutely forced into using it or countering it. It is something to be prepared for or to employ, but it is not Usually the deciding factor on why i lose or win... If i lose, its usually because:
a. the team makeup just holds a distinct advantage over my team in too many ways.
b. i lost to hax/crits (which is the most frustrating to me)
c. i misclicked a move
d. the other guy simply just outsmarted me or was better than me...
e. i am completely surprised and unprepared by an opponents moveset.
For all of my WoW players out there... Anyone tried an arena without any resillience?
That is an example of how pretty much 9 out of 10 times your going to lose if you dont specfically prepare for that, regardless of how skilled a player you are. Stealth Rock is not that profound. (i have a lot of other examples of BROKEN games/gameplay)
And THAT is the reason why it should not be banned. Because if we ban something that does not signifcantly hinder you from being successful for the sake of openning up the usage of a few pokemon, it opens the doors to banning OTHER things that do not significantly change the gameplay for the sake of "balancing".
Anyone who has played other online videogames knows two things:
1. No matter what you nerf or ban, ther will ALWAYS be a group of people who complain about something else and say that it is overpowered.
2. There is no game in existence that is COMPLETELY balanced and fair in every aspect... (well maybe Tetris)
On a side note... THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT STEALTH ROCK IN THE GAME OF POKEMON. THIS IS NOT A SEGWAY TO DISCUSS OTHER VIDEOGAMES! DO NOT DO IT ON THIS THREAD!
WoW's not a particularly good comparison. While I don't PvP in WoW (I'm a PvE guy, though I haven't really raided much this expac yet), wearing resilience doesn't exactly equate to using up a team slot on one of the few guys that learn Rapid Spin. Maybe if you said there was a comp that required a Frost Mage's snares to beat, then that would be valid, but even then, since WoW is an MMO, things change all the time. While you can't ban something there like you can in Pokemon, things get nerfed and buffed and renerfed frequently. If Pokemon could be patched like WoW, we'd probably have seen SR get nerfed for a bit to at least see the impact, but only online games work like that.
And the point some of us are trying to make is that we do prepare our teams for Stealth Rock, and it's very limiting. The very fact that we have to specifically build our teams to account for one move out of hundreds means that something's not quite right. Stealth Rock might not be broken exactly, but it's certainly overcentralizing to the point of ridiculousness.
Yeah, the example wasn't exactly a big deal, i was just pointing it out from one WoWer to another. And yeah, Ivy was totally broken (my favorite character because of it, super long range was fun ^.^ )Yea... the example is not the biggest point, but I guess a better example would be Soul Caliber II and how broken Ivy was. It was so bad that Namco actually recalled/maintenanced all of the arcades out there because she was so broken (i.e. once you got someone in the air there was nothing they could do). This was before the release of the game on ps2 and xbox. Pokemon is a unique game and there arent a lot of other LEGITIMATE games out there like it.... There isnt going to be a perfect example...
I think in the end we will have to agree to disagree... I have to agree with a good amount of the arguements being made against SR. But i also disagree that it is a hindering as you make it seem. It comes down to the player I guess.
You and some others feel restrained or restricted by the simple existence of the move... I and some others do not.. Simple as that.
Not to sound like I'm too possitive about SR, I do hate them, but why the focus on fighting types? Stealth Rocks helps support the otherwise terrible type known as Grass, and with the advantage fighting types get, it sorta shifts the whole metagame around to slightly make oldschool poison-grass types seem almost useful. Fighting prevailance means darks are less likely to show up, but that also means more poisons. More poisons AND fightings mean more psychics, so darks still have a fighting chance in the metagame. Meanwhile, Rock is super-effective against almost all of Grass's weaknesses, except for poison, which is ironic as the only type poison SE's is grass, so I'll let them have it.I hate SR, there i said it, i hate the f*ckin' move
the reason is that it makes great, or at least usable pokemon see nothing but half their life dissapear after nothing, it makes the game not competitive in that it gaves the player using them a enormus adventage against four of seventeen types, and hindes a big amount of pokemos that are not broken garadous, zapdos and dragonite all are hit by a 25% of damage when coming in, but thing that are argubly more broken like garchomp, and excadrill still take >12%, this move is also ment to make fighting type even more of a treath since it makes one of their two weeknesses almost disapear, and makes sand teams, all the more treathening, every member of it takes low damage from it, every team but sandtorm is in disadventage vs SR since all of their members will take about 12% of health (which woudn't be so bad if it was like that for every poke, but surprise it's not), and make walls be week, and ofensive pokes easy to revenge, since there's not a zero damage zone, it also makes abilities like sturdy useless unless you're the lead (a possition that is way worst that past gen), and the proof is that things like aerodactyl work so good, they set-up SR, they make sure your foe don't and die, that was it's only jib and it was OK with it, even the things that should be good against it like Magic Coat don't work since you have to do them at the same time, so even you bounce a taunt or either way the SR will be there, and even when you do bounce a taunt back, that doesn't garantee you're free of SR unless you run the worst attacking move in the game (like someone previously said), that's why i think it should be avoided (and why i hate it so much)
See what the hell SR does? It pretty much just kicked bug/flying right out of that whole one-sided conversation.
Set up Stealth Rock and watch Yanmega take 50% health on the switch in. Then switch a Fire or Rock guy out. It can't survive another switch in, and you only have to do 50% damage. It'll probably outspeed you after a Speed Boost, so it'll hit, but if you switch in the right guys, you won't take much damage.Not quite sure about that, I mean, las time I'd checked Yanmega still raped Fighting, Grass, Dark, Psychic and Bug pokemon in to single moves....I mean just take out your modest, life orb speed boost yanmega and give it 2 filler moves, I'm quite sure you are gonna do SOME damage....
use wish and bring yanmega in.. as long as he doesnt die he will be @ full health since they buffed wish this genSet up Stealth Rock and watch Yanmega take 50% health on the switch in. Then switch a Fire or Rock guy out. It can't survive another switch in, and you only have to do 50% damage. It'll probably outspeed you after a Speed Boost, so it'll hit, but if you switch in the right guys, you won't take much damage.
This would work if he didn't die on the switch in. :Puse wish and bring yanmega in.. as long as he doesnt die he will be @ full health since they buffed wish this gen
Entry hazards are not necessary, they are a single style of play amongst other styles. Switching does not need to be stopped in the slightest, it is just another style of play, and demands more skill from a player. Stall relies alot on entry hazards, and that makes battles too long. The Spikes duo is balanced and fair, and perfectly reasonable. There doesn't need to be a way to hit Flying types, they are meant to have this niche. Stealth Rock hits every single type for damage, some for half of their entire health bar - it is therefore not a niche, but a ridiculous and overcentralising move.Entry hazards are necessary. We need ways to stop people from switching endlessly, or there's no downside to switching and battles will last far too long. The Spike duo aren't enough. There has to be a way to hit flying-types. SR fills that niche beautifully.
Entry hazards are not necessary, they are a single style of play amongst other styles. Switching does not need to be stopped in the slightest, it is just another style of play, and demands more skill from a player. Stall relies alot on entry hazards, and that makes battles too long. The Spikes duo is balanced and fair, and perfectly reasonable. There doesn't need to be a way to hit Flying types, they are meant to have this niche. Stealth Rock hits every single type for damage, some for half of their entire health bar - it is therefore not a niche, but a ridiculous and overcentralising move.
I understand people like to defend Stealth Rock, but nothing grinds my gears more than people actually try to pass it off as actually necessary and vital to the metagame. It's really not. All you're actually doing is defending the style of play you prefer, not the metagame as a whole, because its smaller and easier and you have to exhibit less skill to play it.