Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
One could say the same thing about weather, it seems.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Stealth Rock Discussion
- Thread starter cornYBird
- Start date
- Status
That's true, although I think GameFreak made a mistake with weather-inducing abilities. They're just asking for a weather-inducer to be included in every battle across all play styles: Singles, Doubles, Triples, and Rotation.
I'm not saying that the Flat Battle rules are perfect. I'm just saying that when GameFreak creates new Pokemon/Moves/Items/Abilities, they're not taking into account this 6v6 format. The longer the online battling community sticks with it, the harder it's going to be to maintain something resembling the cover-all-your-bases, hard-counter-for-everything game that they won't let go of. I think the recent bans and all the discussions they've engendered are evidence of that.
First I would like to apologize for taking out some of my frustration out on you in my last post.It was not necessary.However, the post I quoted does seem to suggest that people don't know what they are doing when it comes to being SR prepared.
First up is the SwSw+Drizzle thing.I have actually read all 3 of the current threads that are up regarding it.The main premise of one side is that certain Pokemon are being unfairly restricted due to the ban.Now I won't get into my thoughts about that here but what is the major difference to what I said?Some Pokemon are I guess "fairly restricted" by Stealth Rock, a move of questionable power.That is the parallel.If Stealth Rock is overpowered and keeping several Pokemon out of serious play (or at least restricting the use), wouldn't that be similar?
I think why most teams are prepared for SR is the fact SR has forced them to think about it to the point SR weak Pokemon have to be a real force in the team to be considered.Lets use an example.If your team had, lets say a fighting weakness.Four types resist fighting.Those being Poison,Psychic,Flying and Bug.If you look at that, you will notice 2/4 are weak to SR.So your "counter" would have to take 25% just to switch in.Plus the attack.Then either a second attack or they switch to a counter and you switch out meaning another 25% next time.So with that in mind, a Bug or Flying type is instantly a worse counter than a Psychic or Poison type just because of the difference in entry hazard damage.
*Yes I know stats and other things like secondary typing play role to.I am just stating this side of the argument.
I share your sentiment on the last part.I use which Pokemon I want regardless of the SR weakness.Heck, I made a team of all my favorite Ice and Fire types just to use my favorites.The point that is trying to be made however, is that SR puts 4 types at a disadvantage just be existing on the field.The extra damage restricts them in their roles.Defensive Pokemon aren't as defensive if they lose 25% just by coming in to play compared to one that comes in with 12% damage.Offensive Pokemon are also worn down faster by the extra damage making them more prone to priority or revenge killing then their non-SR weak counterparts.That's what my stand on it is.
I almost feel bad, but I can already feel, that the people who support stealth rock will only really say that they use those factors to their advantage, instead of seeing them as mutualy disavantageous. Wouldn't you love a way to wear down their walls by 25%? Wouldn't it make some pokemon broken if you took SR away, and made them less susceptable to priority ect? People in general have learned to play with them, not against them, so it really is an uphill battle for those of us who see the logic that "good flying type can beat it. Others that could be worth it, all of a sudden aren't"
People run Encore Whimsicott a lot. How much less play do you think it'd see if it were grass/flying? And how many more taunt-variants would that lead to? Think of this with any pokemon. Wish vaporeon is great, but not if the guy you want to heal can't take the SR on the switch-in. And that's passive. If they made SR only hit one pokemon per set-up(sort of like an entry-hazard future sight), I'd argue it'd be fair. And I'm willing to bet a lot of people just wouldn't run it. But I won't keep theroymonning.
To get to my point, if a large group finds SR to be unfair and broken, if not meta-game defining, and the only arguements against it have consistantly been "play around it" or "it's becomeing less popular", despite the fact that I can pretty must assure you I can't say Ferrothorn anywhere on smogon without someone suggesting it should be running SR (or spikes), I think there's enough of a level of inconsistency that someone needs to look into it a bit better.
Stealth Rock is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it keeps a ton of top sweepers in check, making them easier to deal with (and many of them still thrive/succeed despite it) on the other hand, it cripples certain Pokemon you might want to use making them nearly unusable without the right support.
I'd prefer to keep it, even if it means making some of my favorite Pokemon harder to use, because it makes it easier for me to deal with so many other Pokemon. It's also not really broken either. And now a days we have a bunch of different ways in dealing with the threat of hazards thanks to HGSS Move Tutor's Magic Coat, The Taunt TM and Magic Bounce on Espeon and Xatu.
I'd prefer to keep it, even if it means making some of my favorite Pokemon harder to use, because it makes it easier for me to deal with so many other Pokemon. It's also not really broken either. And now a days we have a bunch of different ways in dealing with the threat of hazards thanks to HGSS Move Tutor's Magic Coat, The Taunt TM and Magic Bounce on Espeon and Xatu.
idk... I dont think that swift swim has to do with luck or hax... same goes for hydration.
I think everyone here wants a balanced game @ the end of the day... I know that I do.
Coming from being a player of many different games (call of duty, halo, WoW, capcom and namco fighters, etc...) I have seen a lot of online competitve play.
I am inherently against banning stuff in general, until it has been utterly proven that it is broken. To the point where the game is pretty much not playable unless you take "THESE SPECIFIC STEPS".
Pokemon is a great game to me because even in its current form, trickery and strategy and prediction are the most important aspects of being successful. I think we have all been in battles where SR has decided that battle. No one denies that it the single most damaging move in the game.
But in my experience, the lack of or presence of SR... or the things that are needed to counter it or play around it.... have not significantly reduced the play of the game to the point where i am absolutely forced into using it or countering it. It is something to be prepared for or to employ, but it is not Usually the deciding factor on why i lose or win... If i lose, its usually because:
a. the team makeup just holds a distinct advantage over my team in too many ways.
b. i lost to hax/crits (which is the most frustrating to me)
c. i misclicked a move
d. the other guy simply just outsmarted me or was better than me...
e. i am completely surprised and unprepared by an opponents moveset.
For all of my WoW players out there... Anyone tried an arena without any resillience?
That is an example of how pretty much 9 out of 10 times your going to lose if you dont specfically prepare for that, regardless of how skilled a player you are. Stealth Rock is not that profound. (i have a lot of other examples of BROKEN games/gameplay)
And THAT is the reason why it should not be banned. Because if we ban something that does not signifcantly hinder you from being successful for the sake of openning up the usage of a few pokemon, it opens the doors to banning OTHER things that do not significantly change the gameplay for the sake of "balancing".
Anyone who has played other online videogames knows two things:
1. No matter what you nerf or ban, ther will ALWAYS be a group of people who complain about something else and say that it is overpowered.
2. There is no game in existence that is COMPLETELY balanced and fair in every aspect... (well maybe Tetris)
On a side note... THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT STEALTH ROCK IN THE GAME OF POKEMON. THIS IS NOT A SEGWAY TO DISCUSS OTHER VIDEOGAMES! DO NOT DO IT ON THIS THREAD!
I think everyone here wants a balanced game @ the end of the day... I know that I do.
Coming from being a player of many different games (call of duty, halo, WoW, capcom and namco fighters, etc...) I have seen a lot of online competitve play.
I am inherently against banning stuff in general, until it has been utterly proven that it is broken. To the point where the game is pretty much not playable unless you take "THESE SPECIFIC STEPS".
Pokemon is a great game to me because even in its current form, trickery and strategy and prediction are the most important aspects of being successful. I think we have all been in battles where SR has decided that battle. No one denies that it the single most damaging move in the game.
But in my experience, the lack of or presence of SR... or the things that are needed to counter it or play around it.... have not significantly reduced the play of the game to the point where i am absolutely forced into using it or countering it. It is something to be prepared for or to employ, but it is not Usually the deciding factor on why i lose or win... If i lose, its usually because:
a. the team makeup just holds a distinct advantage over my team in too many ways.
b. i lost to hax/crits (which is the most frustrating to me)
c. i misclicked a move
d. the other guy simply just outsmarted me or was better than me...
e. i am completely surprised and unprepared by an opponents moveset.
For all of my WoW players out there... Anyone tried an arena without any resillience?
That is an example of how pretty much 9 out of 10 times your going to lose if you dont specfically prepare for that, regardless of how skilled a player you are. Stealth Rock is not that profound. (i have a lot of other examples of BROKEN games/gameplay)
And THAT is the reason why it should not be banned. Because if we ban something that does not signifcantly hinder you from being successful for the sake of openning up the usage of a few pokemon, it opens the doors to banning OTHER things that do not significantly change the gameplay for the sake of "balancing".
Anyone who has played other online videogames knows two things:
1. No matter what you nerf or ban, ther will ALWAYS be a group of people who complain about something else and say that it is overpowered.
2. There is no game in existence that is COMPLETELY balanced and fair in every aspect... (well maybe Tetris)
On a side note... THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT STEALTH ROCK IN THE GAME OF POKEMON. THIS IS NOT A SEGWAY TO DISCUSS OTHER VIDEOGAMES! DO NOT DO IT ON THIS THREAD!
Well, I keep on coming back to this thread, thinking about it, then reading it again. Here is what I think.
People may say that SR is broken or unbroken, but the truth of the matter is that we have made analogous bans in the past, the most recent being the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban.
As a case example, let me explain the relationship. The Swift Swim/ Drizzle ban helps keep in check top threats (Kingdra, Kabutops etc.) by not allowing them to realise their full potential. In this instance, it is by banning an ability combination that otherwise renders them exceedingly powerful.
Stealth Rock does exactly the same thing, the only difference being the way in which said top threats are kept in check. With SR, we're making pokemon like Gyarados/ Dragonite (etc) easier to deal with, and it does so by stripping them of 25% of their HP on the switch in.
So, essentially, the positive spinoff of both of these bans is that it helps to check some key threats. However, they also both share the same negative spinoff.
That is to say, the Swift Swim/ Drizzle ban unfairly targets pokemon like Qwilfish (etc, etc) that might make it in to OU otherwise. Similarly, Stealth Rock unfairly targets pokemon like Yanmega (and others) that could, again, make it in to OU otherwise.
The reason why this comparison is valid to the thread is that we have two analogous cases, yet two different decisions. For this reason, I find it hypocritical that Swift Swim/ Drizzle can be banned and Stealth Rock cannot; or, conversely, that Swift Swim/ Drizzle is banned and Stealth Rock is not.
So, if we want to see if SR should be banned, it follows that, if the cases are indeed analogous, we should look to see why Swift Swim/ Drizzle was banned.
I think the reasoning behind the ban for Swift Swim/ Drizzle is that it makes the game uncompetitive (because it makes certain pokes very powerful very quickly). Smogon aims for a competitive metagame, and thus bans things that are considered to be 'broken', as they make the game 'uncompetitive'. However, the idea that Swift Swim/ Drizzle is uncompetitive holds true for SR. Can anyone really tell me that losing 25% or 50% HP from switching in is 'competitive'? And stripping the opposing team's HP for large amounts for only one turn of set-up, is that competitive too?
To all the people who say that you can play around rocks: Yes, you can play around them. But you can also play around Drizzle/ Swift Swim - last time I checked, it's far from unstoppable. And hey, if you're forced to run a weather inducer on your team just in case... Guess what? You also have to run a Rapid Spinner on your team 'just in case' for SR. Once again, these cases show their similarity in the fact that they need pretty specific counters (indeed, SR needs very specific counters). Admittedly, SR doesn't present the same 'immediate' threat as Swsw/D, but you have to look past the here-and-now, and see it's effect over time. There is a reason why SR is so prevalent, a reason why it was, perhaps, the defining aspect of the gen IV metagame.
So if something is really that good, so good that (for me at least) the majority of battles take place with rocks on the field, how can it not be broken? True, overcentralisation isn't the same as broken-ness, but if something is broken then it tends to overcentralise (otherwise, it would never be a problem).
I hope you can all follow that lol :P
My friends tell me I have a 'different' kind of logic, haha.
People may say that SR is broken or unbroken, but the truth of the matter is that we have made analogous bans in the past, the most recent being the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban.
As a case example, let me explain the relationship. The Swift Swim/ Drizzle ban helps keep in check top threats (Kingdra, Kabutops etc.) by not allowing them to realise their full potential. In this instance, it is by banning an ability combination that otherwise renders them exceedingly powerful.
Stealth Rock does exactly the same thing, the only difference being the way in which said top threats are kept in check. With SR, we're making pokemon like Gyarados/ Dragonite (etc) easier to deal with, and it does so by stripping them of 25% of their HP on the switch in.
So, essentially, the positive spinoff of both of these bans is that it helps to check some key threats. However, they also both share the same negative spinoff.
That is to say, the Swift Swim/ Drizzle ban unfairly targets pokemon like Qwilfish (etc, etc) that might make it in to OU otherwise. Similarly, Stealth Rock unfairly targets pokemon like Yanmega (and others) that could, again, make it in to OU otherwise.
The reason why this comparison is valid to the thread is that we have two analogous cases, yet two different decisions. For this reason, I find it hypocritical that Swift Swim/ Drizzle can be banned and Stealth Rock cannot; or, conversely, that Swift Swim/ Drizzle is banned and Stealth Rock is not.
So, if we want to see if SR should be banned, it follows that, if the cases are indeed analogous, we should look to see why Swift Swim/ Drizzle was banned.
I think the reasoning behind the ban for Swift Swim/ Drizzle is that it makes the game uncompetitive (because it makes certain pokes very powerful very quickly). Smogon aims for a competitive metagame, and thus bans things that are considered to be 'broken', as they make the game 'uncompetitive'. However, the idea that Swift Swim/ Drizzle is uncompetitive holds true for SR. Can anyone really tell me that losing 25% or 50% HP from switching in is 'competitive'? And stripping the opposing team's HP for large amounts for only one turn of set-up, is that competitive too?
To all the people who say that you can play around rocks: Yes, you can play around them. But you can also play around Drizzle/ Swift Swim - last time I checked, it's far from unstoppable. And hey, if you're forced to run a weather inducer on your team just in case... Guess what? You also have to run a Rapid Spinner on your team 'just in case' for SR. Once again, these cases show their similarity in the fact that they need pretty specific counters (indeed, SR needs very specific counters). Admittedly, SR doesn't present the same 'immediate' threat as Swsw/D, but you have to look past the here-and-now, and see it's effect over time. There is a reason why SR is so prevalent, a reason why it was, perhaps, the defining aspect of the gen IV metagame.
So if something is really that good, so good that (for me at least) the majority of battles take place with rocks on the field, how can it not be broken? True, overcentralisation isn't the same as broken-ness, but if something is broken then it tends to overcentralise (otherwise, it would never be a problem).
I hope you can all follow that lol :P
My friends tell me I have a 'different' kind of logic, haha.
WoW's not a particularly good comparison. While I don't PvP in WoW (I'm a PvE guy, though I haven't really raided much this expac yet), wearing resilience doesn't exactly equate to using up a team slot on one of the few guys that learn Rapid Spin. Maybe if you said there was a comp that required a Frost Mage's snares to beat, then that would be valid, but even then, since WoW is an MMO, things change all the time. While you can't ban something there like you can in Pokemon, things get nerfed and buffed and renerfed frequently. If Pokemon could be patched like WoW, we'd probably have seen SR get nerfed for a bit to at least see the impact, but only online games work like that.
And the point some of us are trying to make is that we do prepare our teams for Stealth Rock, and it's very limiting. The very fact that we have to specifically build our teams to account for one move out of hundreds means that something's not quite right. Stealth Rock might not be broken exactly, but it's certainly overcentralizing to the point of ridiculousness.
Yea... the example is not the biggest point, but I guess a better example would be Soul Caliber II and how broken Ivy was. It was so bad that Namco actually recalled/maintenanced all of the arcades out there because she was so broken (i.e. once you got someone in the air there was nothing they could do). This was before the release of the game on ps2 and xbox. Pokemon is a unique game and there arent a lot of other LEGITIMATE games out there like it.... There isnt going to be a perfect example...
I think in the end we will have to agree to disagree... I have to agree with a good amount of the arguements being made against SR. But i also disagree that it is a hindering as you make it seem. It comes down to the player I guess.
You and some others feel restrained or restricted by the simple existence of the move... I and some others do not.. Simple as that.
Yeah, the example wasn't exactly a big deal, i was just pointing it out from one WoWer to another. And yeah, Ivy was totally broken (my favorite character because of it, super long range was fun ^.^ )
But yeah, in the end, I don't think either side is gonna convince the other side to change their minds. Some people feel restricted, and some don't. Unfortunately, agreeing to disagree means leaving things unchanged, and that's good for the pro-SR people, but that doesn't exactly do anything for the anti-SR people.
Personally, I can live with a SR dominated meta-game, but I think it'd be an improvement to take it out of the game. I guess we'll just have to continue to live with it.
I hate SR, there i said it, i hate the f*ckin' move
The reason is that it makes great, or at least usable pokemon see nothing but half their life dissapear after nothing, it makes the game not competitive in that it gaves the player using them a enormus adventage against four of seventeen types, and hindes a big amount of pokemos that are not broken garadous, zapdos and dragonite all are hit by a 25% of damage when coming in, but thing that are argubly more broken like garchomp, and excadrill still take >12%
This move is also ment to make fighting type even more of a treath since it makes one of their two weeknesses almost disapear, and makes sand teams, all the more treathening, every member of it takes low damage from it, every team but sandtorm is in disadventage vs SR since all of their members will take about 12% of health (which woudn't be so bad if it was like that for every poke, but surprise it's not), and make walls be week, and ofensive pokes easy to revenge, since there's not a zero damage zone, it also makes abilities like sturdy useless unless you're the lead (a possition that is way worst that past gen)
And the proof is that things like aerodactyl work so good, they set-up SR, they make sure your foe don't and die, that was it's only job and it was OK with it, even the things that should be good against it like Magic Coat don't work since you have to do them at the same time, so even you bounce a taunt or either way the SR will be there, and even when you do bounce a taunt back, that doesn't garantee you're free of SR unless you run the worst attacking move in the game (like someone previously said), that's why i think it should be removed (and why i hate it so much)
The reason is that it makes great, or at least usable pokemon see nothing but half their life dissapear after nothing, it makes the game not competitive in that it gaves the player using them a enormus adventage against four of seventeen types, and hindes a big amount of pokemos that are not broken garadous, zapdos and dragonite all are hit by a 25% of damage when coming in, but thing that are argubly more broken like garchomp, and excadrill still take >12%
This move is also ment to make fighting type even more of a treath since it makes one of their two weeknesses almost disapear, and makes sand teams, all the more treathening, every member of it takes low damage from it, every team but sandtorm is in disadventage vs SR since all of their members will take about 12% of health (which woudn't be so bad if it was like that for every poke, but surprise it's not), and make walls be week, and ofensive pokes easy to revenge, since there's not a zero damage zone, it also makes abilities like sturdy useless unless you're the lead (a possition that is way worst that past gen)
And the proof is that things like aerodactyl work so good, they set-up SR, they make sure your foe don't and die, that was it's only job and it was OK with it, even the things that should be good against it like Magic Coat don't work since you have to do them at the same time, so even you bounce a taunt or either way the SR will be there, and even when you do bounce a taunt back, that doesn't garantee you're free of SR unless you run the worst attacking move in the game (like someone previously said), that's why i think it should be removed (and why i hate it so much)
Not to sound like I'm too possitive about SR, I do hate them, but why the focus on fighting types? Stealth Rocks helps support the otherwise terrible type known as Grass, and with the advantage fighting types get, it sorta shifts the whole metagame around to slightly make oldschool poison-grass types seem almost useful. Fighting prevailance means darks are less likely to show up, but that also means more poisons. More poisons AND fightings mean more psychics, so darks still have a fighting chance in the metagame. Meanwhile, Rock is super-effective against almost all of Grass's weaknesses, except for poison, which is ironic as the only type poison SE's is grass, so I'll let them have it.
See what the hell SR does? It pretty much just kicked bug/flying right out of that whole one-sided conversation.
Not quite sure about that, I mean, las time I'd checked Yanmega still raped Fighting, Grass, Dark, Psychic and Bug pokemon in to single moves....I mean just take out your modest, life orb speed boost yanmega and give it 2 filler moves, I'm quite sure you are gonna do SOME damage....
Set up Stealth Rock and watch Yanmega take 50% health on the switch in. Then switch a Fire or Rock guy out. It can't survive another switch in, and you only have to do 50% damage. It'll probably outspeed you after a Speed Boost, so it'll hit, but if you switch in the right guys, you won't take much damage.
use wish and bring yanmega in.. as long as he doesnt die he will be @ full health since they buffed wish this gen
@ gerard LOL i am not a stickler for this stuff in the least but i had a really hard time reading ur post... NO periods @ all? damn dude you really had to get that off your chest eh? trust me taking a breath is ftw
It was just an example of the side effects of battles with SR, that they are not only "f*uck SR because i can't use moltres" or "yanmega loses half it's health because of this sh!t, let's ban it"
Is that it has an extensive effect in eliminating things (and even entire types) of the meta and removing things to counter other things (whit ice being the exception since HP ice and ice attacks are used by everyone but ice types in OU) nobody uses flying attacks outside of STAB, nobody uses Bug attacks, this helps the types that are week to those types and create an "unfair" adventage for this types because of the lack of weeknesses (still psyquic still has to worry about ghost and the more dangerous Dark, but fighting only has to worry about psyquic and paired with tyranitar (which can set up sandstorm and stealth rock) can eliminate it, Psyquic is also fairly obvious and nobody uses it ouside of STAB and a dark type can be send to take it, Dark types don't have to worry about bug (just fighting) which makes them easier to bring, and so on...
It's a snowball effect in thet the types that are hammered are gonna be less used and the types afraid of those increase, then the counter typer rise, the another and another (like fighting being a joke in Gen 1, then steel came and more fighting type pokes appeared, a lot o stuff happened and here we are)
PD: I'm not angry, it's just a little frustrating at times, like fighting weather teams all day (go weatherless UU)
Is that it has an extensive effect in eliminating things (and even entire types) of the meta and removing things to counter other things (whit ice being the exception since HP ice and ice attacks are used by everyone but ice types in OU) nobody uses flying attacks outside of STAB, nobody uses Bug attacks, this helps the types that are week to those types and create an "unfair" adventage for this types because of the lack of weeknesses (still psyquic still has to worry about ghost and the more dangerous Dark, but fighting only has to worry about psyquic and paired with tyranitar (which can set up sandstorm and stealth rock) can eliminate it, Psyquic is also fairly obvious and nobody uses it ouside of STAB and a dark type can be send to take it, Dark types don't have to worry about bug (just fighting) which makes them easier to bring, and so on...
It's a snowball effect in thet the types that are hammered are gonna be less used and the types afraid of those increase, then the counter typer rise, the another and another (like fighting being a joke in Gen 1, then steel came and more fighting type pokes appeared, a lot o stuff happened and here we are)
PD: I'm not angry, it's just a little frustrating at times, like fighting weather teams all day (go weatherless UU)
This would work if he didn't die on the switch in. :P
Weather and SR are different issues, though I can see where people can see similarities. The reason weather could be considered for a ban is completely different from something like SR.
SR is an overall force that drives the metagame in a certain direction, but isn't something that can be called overcentralizing. SR is something that's considered when building a team, but doesn't limit the metagame severely or necessitate the inclusion of certain pokemon. This is especially true in 5th gen, where many teams don't even carry rapid spin.
Yes, it makes certain pokemon unviable, but this is completely different from something that's OVERCENTRALIZING. SR might make a few pokemon that would otherwise be viable unviable, but an overcentralizing (and therefore bannable) pokemon/move/abilitiy/whatever requires the dedication of some number of slots on your team to be dedicated directly to that threat.
Weather, as most people knew it in 4th gen, was a similar ordeal. That is, sand was something that was there, but did not necessarily create a metagame that restricted pokemon because A) It didn't have many SPECIFIC abusers (such as swift swim or sand rush) and B) It didn't create any threats that were so powerful that only a few select pokemon could effectively stop them.
The reason why swift swim + drizzle was banned is essentially the same as the reason blaziken was banned. It's so powerful that it creates a metagame where a very small selection of pokemon must be included in a team either to counter or abuse said pokemon.
To sum things up, the difference is in the scale. Cutting out 50 pokemon from the metagame is different from restricting 3 slots on a team to a group of 10.
SR is an overall force that drives the metagame in a certain direction, but isn't something that can be called overcentralizing. SR is something that's considered when building a team, but doesn't limit the metagame severely or necessitate the inclusion of certain pokemon. This is especially true in 5th gen, where many teams don't even carry rapid spin.
Yes, it makes certain pokemon unviable, but this is completely different from something that's OVERCENTRALIZING. SR might make a few pokemon that would otherwise be viable unviable, but an overcentralizing (and therefore bannable) pokemon/move/abilitiy/whatever requires the dedication of some number of slots on your team to be dedicated directly to that threat.
Weather, as most people knew it in 4th gen, was a similar ordeal. That is, sand was something that was there, but did not necessarily create a metagame that restricted pokemon because A) It didn't have many SPECIFIC abusers (such as swift swim or sand rush) and B) It didn't create any threats that were so powerful that only a few select pokemon could effectively stop them.
The reason why swift swim + drizzle was banned is essentially the same as the reason blaziken was banned. It's so powerful that it creates a metagame where a very small selection of pokemon must be included in a team either to counter or abuse said pokemon.
To sum things up, the difference is in the scale. Cutting out 50 pokemon from the metagame is different from restricting 3 slots on a team to a group of 10.
Entry hazards are not necessary, they are a single style of play amongst other styles. Switching does not need to be stopped in the slightest, it is just another style of play, and demands more skill from a player. Stall relies alot on entry hazards, and that makes battles too long. The Spikes duo is balanced and fair, and perfectly reasonable. There doesn't need to be a way to hit Flying types, they are meant to have this niche. Stealth Rock hits every single type for damage, some for half of their entire health bar - it is therefore not a niche, but a ridiculous and overcentralising move.
I understand people like to defend Stealth Rock, but nothing grinds my gears more than people actually try to pass it off as actually necessary and vital to the metagame. It's really not. All you're actually doing is defending the style of play you prefer, not the metagame as a whole, because its smaller and easier and you have to exhibit less skill to play it.
Yeah, they were meant to have this niche then SUDDENLY Game Freak creates an entry hazard which is super effective exactly on them, the only type which would be immune to the other two hazards and also the only one immune to the most used move in the game, Earthquake.
Of course they got a bit too heavy-handed with it, but how can it be any more obvious it was made for Flying-types in mind (making a "Stealth Wire" would mean there would be Flying pokémon immune to it, which is something they apparently don't really want to have except for Magic Guard pokémon such as Sigilyph)?
Of course they got a bit too heavy-handed with it, but how can it be any more obvious it was made for Flying-types in mind (making a "Stealth Wire" would mean there would be Flying pokémon immune to it, which is something they apparently don't really want to have except for Magic Guard pokémon such as Sigilyph)?
Stealth Rock is overcentralizing, but not uncompetetive. I almost never use it, occasionally run a Spinner, and never worry about it. When it is used on me, I just recalculate my strategy accordingly. I actually kind of like when other leads use it, because it gives my LeadNite a free DD (enjoy losing half your team by a +1full HP monster). Its just not a big enough problem to ban...that's like banning Thunder Wave or some shit.
BTW to whoever was hating on Regice saying he's worthless, on a mono-Ice Hail team I use when I'm bored sometimes, he is a SubStalling nightmare with his DW ability and can take Fire attacks up the damn yazoo, providing a pseudo resistance of sorts.
BTW to whoever was hating on Regice saying he's worthless, on a mono-Ice Hail team I use when I'm bored sometimes, he is a SubStalling nightmare with his DW ability and can take Fire attacks up the damn yazoo, providing a pseudo resistance of sorts.
But that opens an entire other can of worms and really deserves its own thread.
I think the point needs to be made that removing SR will make stall even less viable. Stealth Rock is actually promoting more diversity in playstyles.
Do we want to preserve pokemon or preserve entire playstyles? Which is the priority?
I think the point needs to be made that removing SR will make stall even less viable. Stealth Rock is actually promoting more diversity in playstyles.
Do we want to preserve pokemon or preserve entire playstyles? Which is the priority?
I' am sorry I dont think its a style of play at all... it is one move... My all out offensive team is lead with infernape who has stealth rock... I use it one time and them go to pew pewing... using 3 valuable turns to set up max spikes and using negative priority moves (meaning your opponent gets to use a move before you do) in order to phase... that is a style of play...
As mario said earlier... flying types already have a huge advantage over other types being that they can switch into any ground based attack... other pokes can do this, but they use theire special ability to be able to do so in the form of levitate. I remember how op flying types were before SR...
- Status