Ehh, I think a large issue with Defog Mega Scizor is that its in a stalemate position against most hazard setters / things it walls since it can't really threaten them with anything. Against Landorus-T for example, its barely dealing any damage with Bullet Punch and while Roost ensures that Mega Scizor will be able to win in a 1v1 situation vs it, It doesn't threaten Landorus-T noticeably well to prevent it from being able to setup Stealth Rocks multiple times during a match. Other defoggers like Tapu Fini and Latios are able to exert a much greater amount of pressure on most Stealth Rock setters due to their much greater supportive movepools / offensive presence, which I feel makes them more valuable as Defog users for the general team.
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
No, seems like you misunderstood something. Tiers =/= viability ranking.
While tiers are meant to divide the pool of Pokemon available into usage groups, viability rankings are here to rank Pokemon depending on their viability (ie : options, raw power, ability to handle classic tier threats, etc) in a given meta in a given tier.
I agree with Colonel M; Scizor has no bloody business running Defog in a meta where almost every team's Stealth Rock setter is either Alolawak, Garchomp, Heatran, Lando-T, Skarmory or Ferrothorn. That might as well be a list of Scizor's main checks and counters.
There's not really an argument here lol, it can get the defog off but oh congratulations they just got rocks back up for free and Scizor can't stop them.
^^^Couldn't agree morepsVoltage said:
I have no clue why everyone is making such a big deal about M-Scizor dropping and stuff like that, it's not nearly as anti-meta as other Pokemon previously discussed like Dugtrio and Nidoking. It can't do that much damage to someone unless Scizor has a type advantage, in which case the opponent would probably switch out and not take much damage from Scizor. IMO, there's just many Pokemon that can do its job better than Scizor.
I'd like to bring up two mons that I feel deserve the rank of A- Insert obligatory bloated joke here
Firstly,
B+ -> A-
Many, MANY teams are unprepared for the presence of Thundurus, as a lot of solid Koko answers simply falter against the raw power Thundurus has. Nasty Plot absolutely shreds reliable Electric answers, Psychic baits Mega Venu and Amoong, Knock Off + Superpower with FightiniumZ also completely annihilates regular answers to Thundurus, Grass Knot plows through obnoxious Ground Types, there's really not much Thundurus can't do on Offensive teams and I think the listed reasons are more than enough.
Secondly,
B+ -> A-
In the same vein as Thundurus, many teams just don't have the means to stop Kyurem B. Z Freeze Shock just blows everything back, while Scarf is a great answer to meta threats like LandoT, Mence, Latios, Non-Scarf Chomp, Zygod lacking Dragon STAB, and Tapu Koko. There's a lot of pressure KyuB immediately puts on Offense that warrants a rank a bit higher than B- imo.
(I'll talk about more of this later and add more, but this is it for now.)
Firstly,
Many, MANY teams are unprepared for the presence of Thundurus, as a lot of solid Koko answers simply falter against the raw power Thundurus has. Nasty Plot absolutely shreds reliable Electric answers, Psychic baits Mega Venu and Amoong, Knock Off + Superpower with FightiniumZ also completely annihilates regular answers to Thundurus, Grass Knot plows through obnoxious Ground Types, there's really not much Thundurus can't do on Offensive teams and I think the listed reasons are more than enough.
Secondly,
In the same vein as Thundurus, many teams just don't have the means to stop Kyurem B. Z Freeze Shock just blows everything back, while Scarf is a great answer to meta threats like LandoT, Mence, Latios, Non-Scarf Chomp, Zygod lacking Dragon STAB, and Tapu Koko. There's a lot of pressure KyuB immediately puts on Offense that warrants a rank a bit higher than B- imo.
(I'll talk about more of this later and add more, but this is it for now.)
Personally feel like Thundurus-Therian is much better in the current metagame than thundy-i is while not tacking on an electric weakness. Most of the same concepts mentioned can apply to thundy-t if not more due to the increase in power while running both a viable NP and or Agility variant. The utility of Thundurus-I's prankster seems moot with the ease of tapu leles coming in setting psychic terrain and defiant sets are not as great as they were last gen. In a lot of cases I dont see a point in using Thundurus over say Tapu Koko. Thundurus also doesnt have as much prevalence as mons such as chansey and tangrowth from what ive seen, just from a general metagame perspective. I dont think thundurus should rise.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
I'm just just curious if thunderous T using Z heal block has merit, it gives You a nasty plot boost while putting stall to a grinding halt for 5 turns, it could run knock off for Chansey
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 476-560 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And after a knock off thunderbolt is a 2 hit kill if You want hp ice/flying for regen cores/venusaur
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 476-560 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And after a knock off thunderbolt is a 2 hit kill if You want hp ice/flying for regen cores/venusaur
I don't know if things have changed through the years but the Smogon philosophy did not rate pokemon with stacking niches very well, even though the niche can be fairly common. (Personally I like to call it "the 6th pokemon argument")
And their argument was that you have screwed up the rest of your teambuilding if you are put into a situation that you need it as your 6th pokemon.
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I am slightly confused by the bolded phrase. Did you mean to say that it makes more sense to drop weavile then it did to raise Mamoswine to B+? Or did you intend to say that Mamoswine should be raised to B+? The latter makes more sense given the sentence, but would clearly contradict the pretty pictures above your paragraphs. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but I figured that if someone was gonna nitpick, better now then later.VR UPDATE
A- ---> B+
B- ---> B
Weavile is dropping because it's not that much better than Mamoswine in the current metagame, and it makes more sense to drop it then raise Mamo to B+, at least for now. Excadrill is a very uncommon site for obvious reasons; Speed tier and inability to consistently check what it's intended to check, while Sand Rush set is just not as threatening as it used to be because of Celesteela, Grassy Terrain, and the prominence of bulky Grasses. Also while it can set up SR against stall, it just gets trapped by Duggy anyway. Zygarde Dog has fallen way out of favor for its fatter counterpart, and its Speed tier is not worth it as much anymore.
Please don't hurt me.
I guess the way I worded it is a bit confusing, but yes, I meant to say that it makes more sense to drop Weavile as opposed to raising Mamo to B+.
Generally I agree with what AM said about Thundy-T; it isn't quite as outclassed as the days of BW/XY/ORAS due to the Prankster nerf, T wave nerf, emergence of Psychic Terrain, and speed creep.
However, Thundy-I's speed gives it a big advantage over Thundy-T, as it outruns offensive Garchomp, Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Keldeo, Nihilego, and whatever else is between 101 and 111 (especially the crowded 110 speed tier).
I'd say Thundy-T's NP sets/double dance sets give it a decent niche, possibly enough to warrant a rise from C to C+, but I am more in favor of Thundy-I dropping than Thundy-T rising. B+ seems okay but it feels more comfortable with B-rank mons due to its splashability and consistency.
Here's a nomination: Tangrowth to A-.
The main reason I believe Tangrowth is worth a rise from B+ to A- is a matter of how it's been shown to consistently check a lot of top threats with its sets. AV is excellent for handling electrics, Greninja (ash and protean sets alike), Manaphy (a big perk for fat teams), Zygarde, Magearna, rain attackers, and all sorts of other mons that can be hard to deal with. It is fairly splashable and can fit onto everything from fat balance to bulky offense. As for Physdef, it checks Mega Metagross well, and the meta is evidently in serious need for an answer to this S-tier monster. Additionally, Terrakion, Bisharp, Jirachi, Buzzole, Tyranitar, etc are either annoyed or beaten down. Both sets take on Defensive Lando-T, which is everywhere atm, Rotom-W, Dugtrio, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, Garchomp... Need I continue?
Now, everyone here knows what Tang accomplishes; I merely want to highlight that there a high amount of OU mons that Tangrowth beats, especially those that are seeing very high usage on the ladder and in tournaments. It offers a good blanket check and role compression in a meta where prepping for every threat is nearly impossible, and that it Tangrowth's greatest asset currently.
It isn't outclassed by Amoonguss because A: It resists ground, B: It can be customized to be a better fit on teams (if the team needs Physdef or AV then Tang has options, whereas Amoonguss does not), and C: It 1v1s Meta Metagross, Garchomp, and Zygarde.
Final considerations:
SPL Week 1: 13 | Tangrowth | 7 | 11.67% | 42.86% |
SPL Week 2: 10 | Tangrowth | 5 | 16.67% | 40.00% |
It's seeing fair usage in SPL, more than a lot of great mons (Hoopa-U, Skarm, Zard X and Y, Volcarona) in fact, and with a fairly average win rate to boot.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706 Tang checks Rotom-W consistently and supports Mega Meta in doing so.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234776 Tang cripples Mega Meta with sleep, PDC's own Mega Meta KOs it and gets an attack raise while doing so to clean up the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-237196 Tangs put in work on both sides, consistently checking the other's team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236898 Despite losing to sun offense, Tang nets a surprise KO on Tapu Fini.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236798 Tangs are critical to both players and blanket check each team.
Tangrowth puts in work frequently and is very effective against the mons that are trending currently; as such it merits a rise to A-.
However, Thundy-I's speed gives it a big advantage over Thundy-T, as it outruns offensive Garchomp, Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Keldeo, Nihilego, and whatever else is between 101 and 111 (especially the crowded 110 speed tier).
I'd say Thundy-T's NP sets/double dance sets give it a decent niche, possibly enough to warrant a rise from C to C+, but I am more in favor of Thundy-I dropping than Thundy-T rising. B+ seems okay but it feels more comfortable with B-rank mons due to its splashability and consistency.
Here's a nomination: Tangrowth to A-.
The main reason I believe Tangrowth is worth a rise from B+ to A- is a matter of how it's been shown to consistently check a lot of top threats with its sets. AV is excellent for handling electrics, Greninja (ash and protean sets alike), Manaphy (a big perk for fat teams), Zygarde, Magearna, rain attackers, and all sorts of other mons that can be hard to deal with. It is fairly splashable and can fit onto everything from fat balance to bulky offense. As for Physdef, it checks Mega Metagross well, and the meta is evidently in serious need for an answer to this S-tier monster. Additionally, Terrakion, Bisharp, Jirachi, Buzzole, Tyranitar, etc are either annoyed or beaten down. Both sets take on Defensive Lando-T, which is everywhere atm, Rotom-W, Dugtrio, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, Garchomp... Need I continue?
Now, everyone here knows what Tang accomplishes; I merely want to highlight that there a high amount of OU mons that Tangrowth beats, especially those that are seeing very high usage on the ladder and in tournaments. It offers a good blanket check and role compression in a meta where prepping for every threat is nearly impossible, and that it Tangrowth's greatest asset currently.
It isn't outclassed by Amoonguss because A: It resists ground, B: It can be customized to be a better fit on teams (if the team needs Physdef or AV then Tang has options, whereas Amoonguss does not), and C: It 1v1s Meta Metagross, Garchomp, and Zygarde.
Final considerations:
SPL Week 1: 13 | Tangrowth | 7 | 11.67% | 42.86% |
SPL Week 2: 10 | Tangrowth | 5 | 16.67% | 40.00% |
It's seeing fair usage in SPL, more than a lot of great mons (Hoopa-U, Skarm, Zard X and Y, Volcarona) in fact, and with a fairly average win rate to boot.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706 Tang checks Rotom-W consistently and supports Mega Meta in doing so.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234776 Tang cripples Mega Meta with sleep, PDC's own Mega Meta KOs it and gets an attack raise while doing so to clean up the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-237196 Tangs put in work on both sides, consistently checking the other's team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236898 Despite losing to sun offense, Tang nets a surprise KO on Tapu Fini.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236798 Tangs are critical to both players and blanket check each team.
Tangrowth puts in work frequently and is very effective against the mons that are trending currently; as such it merits a rise to A-.
#thiccspaghetti
Bronzong: Unranked -> B
Considerably one of the better counterplays to M-Metagross and standard Lando-T among others in the current meta-game, good rock setter, while not being a mon thats too passive due to having options against mons such as Heatran with access to Earthquake.
The two SPL replays showcased so far, with Flegg showcasing it really well in terms of its quality traits in the second replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236898
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-239674
B is a good place considering the relevancy / effectiveness comparison between the B and B- mons.
Considerably one of the better counterplays to M-Metagross and standard Lando-T among others in the current meta-game, good rock setter, while not being a mon thats too passive due to having options against mons such as Heatran with access to Earthquake.
The two SPL replays showcased so far, with Flegg showcasing it really well in terms of its quality traits in the second replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236898
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-239674
B is a good place considering the relevancy / effectiveness comparison between the B and B- mons.
Really liked how it forced Lando-T out and was just being anti-metaAM said:
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
hi, just wanted to say that the ranks are well done for once, congrats :D
Bronzong seems a bit like budget celesteela, unless youre really hurting on landot weakness/edgequake in general. B seems like a good starting point.
AM's still gay tho lol
Bronzong seems a bit like budget celesteela, unless youre really hurting on landot weakness/edgequake in general. B seems like a good starting point.
AM's still gay tho lol
Pheromosa for A+
I won't lie, at first I didn't think I would post about this. Yet, the more I thought about it the more it made me realize that Pheromosa is a significant threat that doesn't really require that much to wreak havoc on a tier. I think the best way to scope on Pheromosa is to analyze its past in the metagame.
Snapshot Week 1 - People were crying for a suspect on the Pokemon. Pheromosa was a Pokemon that was known to terrorize a lot of unprepared teams that weren't packing some weird glue like Toxapex. What really stopped it cold was the revelation of our lord and savior, Aegislash. Aegislash basically barred Pheromosa from going anywhere.
Post-Aegislash Ban - Many people outcried for banning Pheromosa once again; especially now that Aegislash disappeared off of the face of the earth. People thought that Pheromosa was the end of Hyper Offense as it was difficult to find Pokemon to sack it on and people panicked. As a result many new Pokemon appeared to the rescue - Roost + 3 Buzzwole kept the standard and Scarf Pheromosa in check cleanly while others such as Magearna and Steel-types could check it. There was also a rather large surge in people using Ash Greninja - A Pokemon with a rather good priority move. In spite of this Pheromosa was choked out by more relevant and intimidating threats such as Landorus-I and Genesect.
Post-Genesect Ban - People were rather surprised at the quick banning of Landorus and, then, having Genesect tested first before Pheromosa. It became clear, though, throughout the trials that Pheromosa was not quite cutting its weight - fatter teams gave it some headache and Ghost-types were a huge nuisance. Even though people used Psychic Terrain sometimes Pheromosa was still very vulnerable to rather powerful priority threats. It was around this time where people picked up on the idea of Specs Pheromosa - a Pokemon that could bypass a lot of its problematic threats with overbearing them offensively while having coverage moves in Hidden Power Electric and Ice Beam.
For the record, up to this point, I heavily agreed with Pheromosa being in A Rank. It was not a Pokemon that could shine very well in the meta and the meta did not adapt kindly to it. Thankfully, more people are switching to Protean Greninja and people are packing a little less priority in favor of other moves (i.e. Mega Metagross have opted a lot of Pursuit over Bullet Punch, though Bullet Punch has had usage).
SPL - Pheromosa has had quite a bit of use in SPL - ranging from a variety of sets. We had an appearance of Rapid Spin Pheromosa, a clever way to clear entry hazards as many Pokemon will immediately switch out of Pheromosa. We've also seen Scarf Pheromosa, which while mediocre in power and the weakest set, still showed some prospect as it could revenge kill a lot of threatening Pokemon that boosted. Later on we seen adaptations with Choice Specs, and with P2's recent game, Quiver Dance. There are a lot of SPL replays I could link here, but we have some like AM's linked above with P2's game where Quiver Dance was important to outspeed and KO Scarf Landorus-T and Scarf Gengar.
So what has changed to rise Pheromosa, you may ask? First off the meta has developed a lot more. The meta has pushed Pheromosa towards a rather more "catch off-guard" approach with Choice Specs and Quiver Dance while still rocking its usual sets like Life Orb. The presence of Choice Scarf Pheromosa may not be terribly intimidating on paper, but it still can snowball against weakened teams and spiral out of control. The meta has also prepared so much physically, IMO, because Landorus-Therian and Mega Metagross have been creating major havoc. We've resorted to relying on Pokemon like my man Mojonbo to help check some of these or Bronzong - Pokemon that Pheromosa don't have issues with. For the record I'm down for Mojonbo (Tangrowth) to A-. He certainly does rule here.
It's true that Pheromosa has a lot of flaws and maybe not quite as comparable to some of the A+ Pokemon (Celesteela comes to mind, not going to lie), but it has been a Pokemon that has been pulling its weight throughout the ladder and throughout SPL - even collectively:
I understand such a post alone isn't enough to turn heads to making Pheromosa rise, but I think at the very least we need to keep Pheromosa on the radar on potentially rising. Even its small impacts in SPL have been pretty good with what it provides to teams just in terms of raw power and, sometimes, even a little versatility in supporting with Rapid Spin and Choice Scarf.
My apologies for causing a stir on 5,001st post. D:
I won't lie, at first I didn't think I would post about this. Yet, the more I thought about it the more it made me realize that Pheromosa is a significant threat that doesn't really require that much to wreak havoc on a tier. I think the best way to scope on Pheromosa is to analyze its past in the metagame.
Snapshot Week 1 - People were crying for a suspect on the Pokemon. Pheromosa was a Pokemon that was known to terrorize a lot of unprepared teams that weren't packing some weird glue like Toxapex. What really stopped it cold was the revelation of our lord and savior, Aegislash. Aegislash basically barred Pheromosa from going anywhere.
Post-Aegislash Ban - Many people outcried for banning Pheromosa once again; especially now that Aegislash disappeared off of the face of the earth. People thought that Pheromosa was the end of Hyper Offense as it was difficult to find Pokemon to sack it on and people panicked. As a result many new Pokemon appeared to the rescue - Roost + 3 Buzzwole kept the standard and Scarf Pheromosa in check cleanly while others such as Magearna and Steel-types could check it. There was also a rather large surge in people using Ash Greninja - A Pokemon with a rather good priority move. In spite of this Pheromosa was choked out by more relevant and intimidating threats such as Landorus-I and Genesect.
Post-Genesect Ban - People were rather surprised at the quick banning of Landorus and, then, having Genesect tested first before Pheromosa. It became clear, though, throughout the trials that Pheromosa was not quite cutting its weight - fatter teams gave it some headache and Ghost-types were a huge nuisance. Even though people used Psychic Terrain sometimes Pheromosa was still very vulnerable to rather powerful priority threats. It was around this time where people picked up on the idea of Specs Pheromosa - a Pokemon that could bypass a lot of its problematic threats with overbearing them offensively while having coverage moves in Hidden Power Electric and Ice Beam.
For the record, up to this point, I heavily agreed with Pheromosa being in A Rank. It was not a Pokemon that could shine very well in the meta and the meta did not adapt kindly to it. Thankfully, more people are switching to Protean Greninja and people are packing a little less priority in favor of other moves (i.e. Mega Metagross have opted a lot of Pursuit over Bullet Punch, though Bullet Punch has had usage).
SPL - Pheromosa has had quite a bit of use in SPL - ranging from a variety of sets. We had an appearance of Rapid Spin Pheromosa, a clever way to clear entry hazards as many Pokemon will immediately switch out of Pheromosa. We've also seen Scarf Pheromosa, which while mediocre in power and the weakest set, still showed some prospect as it could revenge kill a lot of threatening Pokemon that boosted. Later on we seen adaptations with Choice Specs, and with P2's recent game, Quiver Dance. There are a lot of SPL replays I could link here, but we have some like AM's linked above with P2's game where Quiver Dance was important to outspeed and KO Scarf Landorus-T and Scarf Gengar.
So what has changed to rise Pheromosa, you may ask? First off the meta has developed a lot more. The meta has pushed Pheromosa towards a rather more "catch off-guard" approach with Choice Specs and Quiver Dance while still rocking its usual sets like Life Orb. The presence of Choice Scarf Pheromosa may not be terribly intimidating on paper, but it still can snowball against weakened teams and spiral out of control. The meta has also prepared so much physically, IMO, because Landorus-Therian and Mega Metagross have been creating major havoc. We've resorted to relying on Pokemon like my man Mojonbo to help check some of these or Bronzong - Pokemon that Pheromosa don't have issues with. For the record I'm down for Mojonbo (Tangrowth) to A-. He certainly does rule here.
It's true that Pheromosa has a lot of flaws and maybe not quite as comparable to some of the A+ Pokemon (Celesteela comes to mind, not going to lie), but it has been a Pokemon that has been pulling its weight throughout the ladder and throughout SPL - even collectively:
Though this statistic seems to be rather low, keep in mind that this is tied with Celesteela and Tapu Lele (who, coincidentally, has the same win rate) and behind Magnezone which, unfortunately, has had a rather bleak performance rating.
I understand such a post alone isn't enough to turn heads to making Pheromosa rise, but I think at the very least we need to keep Pheromosa on the radar on potentially rising. Even its small impacts in SPL have been pretty good with what it provides to teams just in terms of raw power and, sometimes, even a little versatility in supporting with Rapid Spin and Choice Scarf.
My apologies for causing a stir on 5,001st post. D:
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Just from an outsider's perspective, Pheromosa in general seems to be a hot-button topic, as people nowadays are tripping over themselves to to dismiss what is left of the stigma that surrounded it in beginning phases of the meta as a banworthy threat. I can't say I don't still have those reservations about how healthy it can truly be, even in the face of an overwhelmingly popular opinion that it's fine (I'm referring to sheer number of likes Gary's 'let's settle this once and for all' post about Pheromosa got a couple weeks back), but I'll readily chalk some of that up to not having played at all since the Genesect meta (which was exceedingly horrible, by the way, and damn near made me disavow SuMo as a competitive metagame).
Now, I feel, is a time for us to have a more mature discussion of its capabilities, without any pretenses about what the other side may or may not be thinking, as the initial push for the quick ban is well behind us. If Pheromosa ever proved to be what some of us thought from the beginning, it would be over time and through a legitimate suspect test, when we've truly explored what it is capable of and how it adapts to metagame evolution.
Now, I feel, is a time for us to have a more mature discussion of its capabilities, without any pretenses about what the other side may or may not be thinking, as the initial push for the quick ban is well behind us. If Pheromosa ever proved to be what some of us thought from the beginning, it would be over time and through a legitimate suspect test, when we've truly explored what it is capable of and how it adapts to metagame evolution.
hecatomb
Banned deucer.
I dont know if Pheromosa needs to be banned, but then you think of its speed, which pretty much outspeeds everything but priority moves, so if you start with Pheromosa, you pretty much get free damage. And if you started with something thats weak to fighting, ice, bug, or poison, you have to switch cause you most likely are going to get 1 shot, you switch and it still gets free damage. The only real threat to Pheromosa is fire types, since it can just free damage U-turn anything else.
not to mention it doesnt even need swords dance like mega scizor to 1 shot everything.
not to mention it doesnt even need swords dance like mega scizor to 1 shot everything.
To clarify - this discussion that I am bringing to the table is solely for ranking Pheromosa - not for whether or not Pheromosa should be banned. I feel that Pheromosa's ranking in the VR thread is a very good discussion point considering its SPL usage as well as recent revelations with sets such as Specs and Quiver Dance. Please do not derail this into whether Pheromosa should be banned or not.
Discussing on why Pheromosa should be A+ or remain within the A tier is the point of why I brought up Pheromosa. We've waited a while for the tier to settle since the Genesect ban and we have more professional scene using the Pokemon. I do not want this topic suddenly tabled simply because people are arguing whether or not it should be banned (and whether you want it to or not is irrelevant in this thread).
Honestly it's a Deoxsys with better typing, better STABs, and enough options in it's movepool. In my opinion its should be A+ easly, as it only downside is how squishy it is that any bulky/stall mon can take a hit and dent it or outright kill it.
With Lele as Wallbreaker and Priority denial, it's even worse, as now you can't even check (unless Marowak) it if it's already got a kill because:
1. it can be scarfed anyway
2. it just got a speed boost from Beast Boost, so good luck outspeeding her unless you did Rock-polish with Megagross or something.
3. no priority if Psychic terrain, and with Lele being at 30% usage..
I can understand people who want her to go away. It's almost like letting Deoxys-Normal staying in OU.
With Lele as Wallbreaker and Priority denial, it's even worse, as now you can't even check (unless Marowak) it if it's already got a kill because:
1. it can be scarfed anyway
2. it just got a speed boost from Beast Boost, so good luck outspeeding her unless you did Rock-polish with Megagross or something.
3. no priority if Psychic terrain, and with Lele being at 30% usage..
I can understand people who want her to go away. It's almost like letting Deoxys-Normal staying in OU.
I really think that Pheromosa is fine in A rank alongside Hoopa-U for two reasons:
(1) Pheromosa is a specialised monster towards HO team whereas Hoopa-U is a specialised stallbreaker. They do only one thing, but very well;
(2) Pheromosa has a meager bulk somehow remedied by a blazing Spe stat and high offenses. Its movepool is harsh, but it has enough moves to work with and CB and CSpecs are viable to overload most of its checks. Hoopa-U has a better movepool, but low Def and middling Spe is detrimental; Choice Scarf is a nice item to b slapped on its back, but it is still not fast enough to outspeed some key threats.
I think that both Pheromosa and Hoopa-U should be A material because they share the same fate of being overspecialised pokemons, but sometimes predictable with exploitable weaknesses. Simply put, in this meta they need more support than the pokemons listed in S and A+ rank.
There is no shame in being only A rank in a meta with some Megas still missing and pre suspect tests.
(1) Pheromosa is a specialised monster towards HO team whereas Hoopa-U is a specialised stallbreaker. They do only one thing, but very well;
(2) Pheromosa has a meager bulk somehow remedied by a blazing Spe stat and high offenses. Its movepool is harsh, but it has enough moves to work with and CB and CSpecs are viable to overload most of its checks. Hoopa-U has a better movepool, but low Def and middling Spe is detrimental; Choice Scarf is a nice item to b slapped on its back, but it is still not fast enough to outspeed some key threats.
I think that both Pheromosa and Hoopa-U should be A material because they share the same fate of being overspecialised pokemons, but sometimes predictable with exploitable weaknesses. Simply put, in this meta they need more support than the pokemons listed in S and A+ rank.
There is no shame in being only A rank in a meta with some Megas still missing and pre suspect tests.
The Deoxys-Pheromosa comparisons are a bit silly at this point. Even normal Deoxys is way stronger and has a much better movepool (including an obscenely powerful and spammable STAB in Psycho Boost), to the point where it could OHKO or 2HKO the entire tier with just a Life Orb, as well as E-Speed to pick faster things off. Never mind the fact it's a great suicide hazard lead as well.
Pheromosa doesn't have that same offensive prowess. It fails to break through many prominent defensive mons like Tapu Fini, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Toxapex, and Alolan Marowak, and it often gets OHKO'd in return. Yes it can spam U-turn, but unlike things like Scizor or Genesect, it can't switch in on anything. It's non-existent bulk means you're only bringing it in after a death or from another U-turn, when there many other offensive pivots that can do a similar job and can tank a hit or two if necessary. With so many offensive threats running around this gen, using a mon that offers zero defensive synergy is a HUGE drawback. You could say Hoopa has the same problem, but the difference is when Hoopa comes in, something more often than not fucking DIES. The pay-off is immediate and massive when you manage to get Hoopa in, which makes up for its lack of defensive utility enough to where it's worth the risk running it. Even defensively Hoopa's not completely dead weight, since its good special bulk means it can actually tank strong neutral special attacks (and even some SE ones like Tapu Fini's Moonblast) if it absolutely has to. 90% of the time, Pheromosa's gonna be hanging in the sidelines while its teammates do most of the work simply because it can't switch in and can't punish its switch-ins hard enough once it is in. Specs and Quiver Dance do a decent job of it, but even then it's not exactly gonna be destroying any competently built team.
Phero's obscene speed is eye-catching, but also overkill most of the time - Tapu Koko and Greninja are slower, but their speed is more than enough for what you need them to do, and they don't die to the slightest breeze. Many offensive mons also carry priority like Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Ash-Greninja, and Zygarde, which can really put a thorn in your plans if you're using it to scare off offense.
It's a great Pokémon and all, but I think a lot of people bought into the new toy syndrome and gassed this thing up as the scourge of OU from base stats alone.
Pheromosa doesn't have that same offensive prowess. It fails to break through many prominent defensive mons like Tapu Fini, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Toxapex, and Alolan Marowak, and it often gets OHKO'd in return. Yes it can spam U-turn, but unlike things like Scizor or Genesect, it can't switch in on anything. It's non-existent bulk means you're only bringing it in after a death or from another U-turn, when there many other offensive pivots that can do a similar job and can tank a hit or two if necessary. With so many offensive threats running around this gen, using a mon that offers zero defensive synergy is a HUGE drawback. You could say Hoopa has the same problem, but the difference is when Hoopa comes in, something more often than not fucking DIES. The pay-off is immediate and massive when you manage to get Hoopa in, which makes up for its lack of defensive utility enough to where it's worth the risk running it. Even defensively Hoopa's not completely dead weight, since its good special bulk means it can actually tank strong neutral special attacks (and even some SE ones like Tapu Fini's Moonblast) if it absolutely has to. 90% of the time, Pheromosa's gonna be hanging in the sidelines while its teammates do most of the work simply because it can't switch in and can't punish its switch-ins hard enough once it is in. Specs and Quiver Dance do a decent job of it, but even then it's not exactly gonna be destroying any competently built team.
Phero's obscene speed is eye-catching, but also overkill most of the time - Tapu Koko and Greninja are slower, but their speed is more than enough for what you need them to do, and they don't die to the slightest breeze. Many offensive mons also carry priority like Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Ash-Greninja, and Zygarde, which can really put a thorn in your plans if you're using it to scare off offense.
It's a great Pokémon and all, but I think a lot of people bought into the new toy syndrome and gassed this thing up as the scourge of OU from base stats alone.
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INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
Thing is other than its stabs life orb Greninja hits harder with better options in every way minus rapid spin/quiver dance
And even still Greninja can definitely smash through Chansey with low kick
Pheromosa really only out does Greninja in speed and a better u turn spammer/spooky wincon but that's why people use ash Greninja
And even still Greninja can definitely smash through Chansey with low kick
Pheromosa really only out does Greninja in speed and a better u turn spammer/spooky wincon but that's why people use ash Greninja
![GH[O]ST](/forums/media/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
I don't know why so many people sell Pheromosa short while things like Tapu Koko and Protean Greninja are gassed up in comparison. Pheromosa is definitely not a case of new toy syndrome. I agree with the idea of Pheromosa at A+
A well-played Pheromosa is by far a top threat, especially for offensive teams including both bulky offense and heavy offense. Not only does it hit harder and faster than all other sweepers and cleaners, but it can also do so with a variety of different sets, meaning you have to guess/scout the set before you even dream of planning counterplay against it. To check it properly you even need to know its damn nature. Its ability to launch powerful attacks from both ends of the spectrum with solid coverage atop of the highest speed in the tier is ridiculous. One misstep and the situation can spiral out of control with Beast Boost.
Even though Pheromosa's main role is as an offense killer (rather than more of a balance killer like Protean Greninja), let's not pretend that Pheromosa can't blow holes in conventional Pheromosa switch-ins. The damage that the Quiver Dance set (and also specs set) is capable of doing is absurd. We all know about the more common Pheromosa sets, so hereare some interesting calcs regarding the quiver dance
Of course many of these involve z-moves, but special pheromosa can OHKO many bulky things like Mega Metagross and Rotom without z-moves too
Pheromosa's speed isn't overkill either. The speed allows it to potentially render many sweepers and cleaners useless, and with the common psychic terrain support it's virtually untouchable from an offense standpoint.
The fact that PHeromosa has a myriad of options with stats and ability tailor made for an offensive juggernaut put it at a level no less than Greninja and Koko, who both are slower and weaker albeit a little bulkier, but are both A+/S
A well-played Pheromosa is by far a top threat, especially for offensive teams including both bulky offense and heavy offense. Not only does it hit harder and faster than all other sweepers and cleaners, but it can also do so with a variety of different sets, meaning you have to guess/scout the set before you even dream of planning counterplay against it. To check it properly you even need to know its damn nature. Its ability to launch powerful attacks from both ends of the spectrum with solid coverage atop of the highest speed in the tier is ridiculous. One misstep and the situation can spiral out of control with Beast Boost.
Even though Pheromosa's main role is as an offense killer (rather than more of a balance killer like Protean Greninja), let's not pretend that Pheromosa can't blow holes in conventional Pheromosa switch-ins. The damage that the Quiver Dance set (and also specs set) is capable of doing is absurd. We all know about the more common Pheromosa sets, so hereare some interesting calcs regarding the quiver dance
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 190-224 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Savage Spin-Out vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 174-206 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 160-190 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Savage Spin-Out vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 370-436 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 542-638 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Savage Spin-Out vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 526-621 (122 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 286-337 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 362-428 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 164-194 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Savage Spin-Out vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 174-206 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 160-190 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Savage Spin-Out vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 370-436 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 542-638 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Savage Spin-Out vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 526-621 (122 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 286-337 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 362-428 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 164-194 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Of course many of these involve z-moves, but special pheromosa can OHKO many bulky things like Mega Metagross and Rotom without z-moves too
Pheromosa's speed isn't overkill either. The speed allows it to potentially render many sweepers and cleaners useless, and with the common psychic terrain support it's virtually untouchable from an offense standpoint.
The fact that PHeromosa has a myriad of options with stats and ability tailor made for an offensive juggernaut put it at a level no less than Greninja and Koko, who both are slower and weaker albeit a little bulkier, but are both A+/S
MegaStarUniverse
Banned deucer.
Im going to nominate Garchomp for A+
Whats not to like about this pokemon? the scarf set is increasing in usage for good reason because it outspeeds and checks a lot of the metagame. Its Dragonium Z and Rockium Z Sets are dangerous as they really has no switch ins at all other then unaware Clefable and Quagsire. its Mixed chain chomp set is still good due to its coverage and its ability to set up rocks. and sets such as Salac Berry SD sets can still sweep teams if paired with a Magnezone or lure for skarmory.
its presence in this metagame is clear and is very unpredictable. here are some calcs
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Celesteela: 330-390 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 250-296 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 358-423 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Replays showing Garchomp presence in the metagame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236973 - spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234841 - spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-240290 - ost
Whats not to like about this pokemon? the scarf set is increasing in usage for good reason because it outspeeds and checks a lot of the metagame. Its Dragonium Z and Rockium Z Sets are dangerous as they really has no switch ins at all other then unaware Clefable and Quagsire. its Mixed chain chomp set is still good due to its coverage and its ability to set up rocks. and sets such as Salac Berry SD sets can still sweep teams if paired with a Magnezone or lure for skarmory.
its presence in this metagame is clear and is very unpredictable. here are some calcs
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Celesteela: 330-390 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 250-296 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 358-423 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Replays showing Garchomp presence in the metagame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-236973 - spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234841 - spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-240290 - ost
- Status