Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[samurott14rogers]

Ah, Dugtrio. There's been so much argument about this thing that it's not even funny.

While I do believe that Dugtrio is a very effective revenge killer and that stuff, there's just one thing you can't overlook: it's horrible "bulk". I find that many in favor of boosting Dugtrio up tend to say that its bulk doesn't matter all that much because it will just outspeed and kill you. In my opinion, this is only true of Pokemon that Dugtrio has a favorable type advantage against, or Pokemon that have already been damaged. Dugtrio gets absolutely demolished by any of Greninja's (or Ash variant's) water attacks, especially Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, which will always go first, and passes by Dugtrio's focus sash. Heck, even an Ice Beam from either one has a good chance of OHKOing Dugtrio if it doesn't have the focus sash. Tapu Fini can easily take an Earthquake and hit back hard with a Misty Terrain scald, or any good water-type move in its arsenal. Similarly, Mega Venusaur can take an Earthquake with its massive bulk and come back swinging.

Despite what was said before, however, Dugtrio still has a lot of things going for it. Access to U-Turn is great, because you will usually be able to outspeed your opponent and return with a safe switch-in. Not surprisingly, Dugtrio's Earthquake is a very strong one with 150 base power (including STAB) and even if you resist it, most Pokemon that switch into it will most likely lose a good portion of HP. What's more, Dugtrio is a great check or can do a lot of damage to a lot of popular OU Pokemon right now, such as Heatran, Mega Metagross, Magearna, and Tapu Koko. Dugtrio can easily utilize its base 120 speed and the attack boost it got from Generation VII is a Godsend for this guy.

I don't think that Dugtrio should move that much higher, but I propose that he goes from B+ to A-.

The thing that has been discussed at length, and I'm sure no body is arguing against, is that Dugtrio's trapping ability makes it indispensable to Stall/defensive teams, and counterplay to what Dugtrio is put on the team for is extremely tricky because it prevents Switching, one of the most fundamental and basic mechanics the metagame depends on.

Forgot to talk about its ability, but this about sums it up.

 

[Ema Skye]

Dugtrio gets absolutely demolished by any of Greninja's (or Ash variant's) water attacks, especially Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, which will always go first, and passes by Dugtrio's focus sash. Heck, even an Ice Beam from either one has a good chance of OHKOing Dugtrio if it doesn't have the focus sash. Tapu Fini can easily take an Earthquake and hit back hard with a Misty Terrain scald, or any good water-type move in its arsenal. Similarly, Mega Venusaur can take an Earthquake with its massive bulk and come back swinging.

These aren't great examples as to why Dugtrio shouldn't rise. Obviously it isn't going to beat bulky things that hit it for super effective damage. If that's what you're using Dugtrio for, you're using it wrong. Not to mention that obviously a Pokemon with 35/50/80 defenses is going to die to any super effective hit.

Dugtrio should rise because of the constraint it puts on team building, as teams with multiple ground weaknesses (Heatran, Ttar, Nihilego, etc) will struggle with Arena Trap. The utility it brings to every archetype gives it a truly unique role that cannot be replicated.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Where dugtrio gets to the point I think it should be questioned is when paired with mega sableye and them near completely mastering hazard control.

The best counter lead to mega sableye is mold breaker exadrill and I just lead with dugtrio in that case and they have to live with a dead exadrill and pick if they want rocks or dugtrio at 1 hp.

Unless air balloon leads start getting used(let's You switch out, still lose to reversal).

It's a beatable team arch even after basically blowing Your lead but no hazards can be rough.

Bleh I really dislike the outlook of future mega release actually right now, I love abusing dugtrio but shit.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 192-228 (79.3 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pre mega for trying to abuse bulk, mega is out sped

 

[Gary]

I think Scizor is capable of adatping to the hostile meta. While youre right that swords dance is not rly viable, 3 attacks + roost is a very strong pivot that can punish a lot of its common switch ins. Knock Off is excellent support, it lures in and whacks marowak, and removes potential shed shells from skarmory, heatran, toxapex and celesteela. Patching up any weakness a team that relies on dug or mags to trap these mons might have. Superpower is also a wonderful heatran lure for teams that need it gone.
Secondly while it is true that volcarona, charizard and others can counter scizor, I dont find this negatively affecting scizor too much, as it simply uturns on these Pokemon. With good hazard control scizor can quite effectively act as a midgame pivot that cam absorb damage, force.hazard damage and gain momemtum. While its true pokemon like tapu bulu and lele carry ways of breaking past scizor, they dont always, and scizor can still be used to keep theae terrors from destroying your team.

I think you kind of missed the point on his Volcarona and Zard-X example. He doesn't really mean that these Pokemon can easily switch into Scizor, but that they have the capability to use Scizor as set up fodder, and in the case of Volcarona, that can be REALLY bad. I think the phrase "Oh you can just U-turn out" is thrown around way too much, and in reality, it's not really something that Mega Scizor can afford to use for a majority of the match. Scizor's best niche in the meta is that it can check a few prominent Pokemon, mainly Mega Gross, because it struggles to really sweep much on its so its defensive capabilities are fully abused. Most of the time I found myself using Scizor, I was just spamming Roost to try and keep it as healthy as possible so it can take on the onslaught of Mega Metagross, Bulu, Pheromosa, etc. and U-turn was honestly only used versus bulkier Pokemon that it could force out, or when it got a free switch into something. All a player has to do is pressure Scizor enough to where it's forced to Roost or BP, and then you basically have a free switch into Volcarona and Zard-X.

I mean yeah, you should have ways to deal with Zard-X and Volc to support Scizor, but what Tressed is saying is that there are a lot of dangerous Pokemon in the meta that can punish Scizor, while Scizor doesn't really provide much back in return outside of walling specific Pokemon that are often paired with stuff like Magnezone. And then you have Bulu which has adapted to it by run SD Z Fight to blast through it, and other Pokemon that it used to be good at checking such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Clef have fallen off quite a bit this generation, and others like Mega Diancie and Lopunny are unreleased. If Metagross weren't around, I would honestly go as far to say that it would be worthy of dropping to like B+, just because its main niche in walling Metagross is what really keeps it somewhat prominent. Lele in the tier also heavily nerfs its best sweeping option in Bullet Punch, and just the sheer presence of it severely hurts it viability. I honestly only use Mega Scizor on a team that's severely weak to Mega Meta and Scizor fits nicely, but other than that, the other Megas in the tier offer so much more utility or offensive pressure.

 

[Ash Borer]

I think you kind of missed the point on his Volcarona and Zard-X example. He doesn't really mean that these Pokemon can easily switch into Scizor, but that they have the capability to use Scizor as set up fodder, and in the case of Volcarona, that can be REALLY bad. I think the phrase "Oh you can just U-turn out" is thrown around way too much, and in reality, it's not really something that Mega Scizor can afford to use for a majority of the match. Scizor's best niche in the meta is that it can check a few prominent Pokemon, mainly Mega Gross, because it struggles to really sweep much on its so its defensive capabilities are fully abused. Most of the time I found myself using Scizor, I was just spamming Roost to try and keep it as healthy as possible so it can take on the onslaught of Mega Metagross, Bulu, Pheromosa, etc. and U-turn was honestly only used versus bulkier Pokemon that it could force out, or when it got a free switch into something. All a player has to do is pressure Scizor enough to where it's forced to Roost or BP, and then you basically have a free switch into Volcarona and Zard-X.

I mean yeah, you should have ways to deal with Zard-X and Volc to support Scizor, but what Tressed is saying is that there are a lot of dangerous Pokemon in the meta that can punish Scizor, while Scizor doesn't really provide much back in return outside of walling specific Pokemon that are often paired with stuff like Magnezone. And then you have Bulu which has adapted to it by run SD Z Fight to blast through it, and other Pokemon that it used to be good at checking such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Clef have fallen off quite a bit this generation, and others like Mega Diancie and Lopunny are unreleased. If Metagross weren't around, I would honestly go as far to say that it would be worthy of dropping to like B+, just because its main niche in walling Metagross is what really keeps it somewhat prominent. Lele in the tier also heavily nerfs its best sweeping option in Bullet Punch, and just the sheer presence of it severely hurts it viability. I honestly only use Mega Scizor on a team that's severely weak to Mega Meta and Scizor fits nicely, but other than that, the other Megas in the tier offer so much more utility or offensive pressure.

I would say that Scizor is A- material, I think we mostly agree. My main point was that looking at scizor through the lens of bulky sd is outdated. It performs much more effectively as a support pokemon for trapping teams, as it can effectively knock off shed shells and uturn on threats that can be trapped. Also, I think we are overreacting about giving volcarona +1. Id say any team should be able to revenge kill that, it boosts in the face of quite a lot.

This being said when we have to talk about scizor as something that is only good as part of a traping core, to.lure.for other pokemon, and needing a good revenge killer behind it, thats a lot more team support than something in A should ever need.

 

[nameless90]

I don't really think that Dugtrio's meager bulk really is really detrimental in the sense that Dugtrio is not meant to tank hits but to enter and deal a respectable amount of damage to every pokemon in the field.
Hazards support is really appreciated to net some additional kills, but even though Focus Sash Dugtrio lacks the power to achieve some KOs, at the very least it still weaken the chosen target to the point you can easily kill it and, from there, you are going to have the upper hand towards the opponent's team.

===> A- seems good to me considering how effective it is at trapping.

 

[LeNorm]

Can I make a case for Nidoking getting a slight bump up the list? Perhaps even to a B rank?

Right now, it holds its own against many of the top threats with its very useful STAB moves taking out many of the top threats (sludge wave destroys most fairies, such as the Tapus; earth power get rid of the steel types that are immune to poison moves - i.e. Heatran, Magnezone, etc.), and its coverage moves (normally ice beam and flamethrower) mean that few mons can happily switch in on it.

IMO its really quite a good anti-meta mon, a full health, timid 252 speed/special attack (w/life orb and sheer force) Nidoking can take out or force the switch from:
Tapu Bulu (not scarfed)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini (if its not max speed)
Heatran (all builds, perhaps other than choice scarf which is rare)
Any Landorus without a speed boosting nature (or choice scarf)
Celesteela (flamethrower 2HKOs Celesteela, which can only OHKO after rocks 25% of the time if it is adamant and 252 attack only)
Magnezone
Some Pheromosa (i.e. standard life orb; choice scarfed ice beam is a 37.5 to OHKO after rocks)
Mega Scizor
Ferrothorn

And that's just the S, A+, and A-Ranks. Not many mons can come in on its moves, so if you predict correctly Nidoking can be extremely effective.

 

[samurott14rogers]

While that is true about it being anti-meta, keep in mind that many Pokemon can check it too, including a M-Metagross, Tapu Lele, and heck, even Dugtrio. (Then again, Dugtrio probably has a good chance of getting OHKO'ed by Ice Beam)

However, I do agree not many can safely switch in to Nido, so it should go up maybe a spot or two. It's got pretty decent stats, good moves, and has a very anti-meta typing. I just can't stress its anti-metagame enough.

 

[LeNorm]

While that is true about it being anti-meta, keep in mind that many Pokemon can check it too, including a M-Metagross, Tapu Bulu (or whatever the psychic one is) and heck, even Dugtrio.

However, I do agree not many can safely switch in to Nido, so it should go up maybe a spot or two.

Agreed, particularly about Metagross and Dugtrio, though neither can switch in on an earth power (or dugtrio on anything tbh!). I guess you meant Lele, not Bulu, which can OHKO Nidoking (Bulu, on the other hand, is OHKO'd by Nidoking's sludge wave, and only choice scarfed Bulu outspeeds Nidoking). That said, Nidoking can often switch in on Lele as Lele is often choiced into a move and if that move is not pschyic type, obviously Nidoking forces the switch or can take Lele out with sludge wave.

Even with these pokemon in mind, I still think it warrants a B rank. If Nidoking could check everything, then it wouldn't be a 'B' ranking I was arguing for!

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Nidoking is slow, has poor bulk, and suffers the absolute dominance of Lele and Mega Metagross. It gets trapped by Dugtrio (see the redundance of this in this thread?), and one of Its best niche in Oras, which was providing a counter to Clefable, is gone because Clef got exposed in this Meta because of the new power creep. Unless a real shift happens because of Idk what, Nidoking is almost completely outclassed for now as the strong 'mon with crazy coverage, by Greninja, for exemple.

 

[LeNorm]

Nidoking is slow, has poor bulk, and suffers the absolute dominance of Lele and Mega Metagross. It gets trapped by Dugtrio (see the redundance of this in this thread?), and one of Its best niche in Oras, which was providing a counter to Clefable, is gone because Clef got exposed in this Meta because of the new power creep. Unless a real shift happens because of Idk what, Nidoking is almost completely outclassed for now as the strong 'mon with crazy coverage, by Greninja, for exemple.

Nidoking might have lost one niche with the downfall of Clefable, but gained three others with the arrival of Tapu Koko, Bulu, and Fini as dominant forces in the metagame.

 

[GOthee]

Nidoking is slow, has poor bulk, and suffers the absolute dominance of Lele and Mega Metagross. It gets trapped by Dugtrio (see the redundance of this in this thread?), and one of Its best niche in Oras, which was providing a counter to Clefable, is gone because Clef got exposed in this Meta because of the new power creep. Unless a real shift happens because of Idk what, Nidoking is almost completely outclassed for now as the strong 'mon with crazy coverage, by Greninja, for exemple.

What about scarf nido? it sounds pretty good, not tapu lele good but can still pull of a sweeper role style

 

[LeNorm]

What about scarf nido? it sounds pretty good, not tapu lele good but can still pull of a sweeper role style

I did think about running a scarfed Nidoking, but decided it wasn't as good as life orb. The notable mons I think a scarfed Nidoking might beat (at least, off the top of my head) that life orb king wouldn't are Mega-Metagross and Dugtrio. So for surprise and the ability to check pokemon that otherwise take Nidoking out, a scarf could work. But, notably, it won't outspeed its biggest threat: (scarfed) tapu lele.

Giving Nidoking a scarf loses the life orb/sheer force combo, which doesn't seem worth it to me. Additionally, Nidoking's other biggest strength is its coverage, which is less useful when scarfed.

Maybe a scarfed version is worth trying, but I can't imagine it being as viable as life orb, other than to catch your opponent off guard. But you never know...

 

[Sun King]

I don't really think that Dugtrio's meager bulk really is really detrimental in the sense that Dugtrio is not meant to tank hits but to enter and deal a respectable amount of damage to every pokemon in the field.
Hazards support is really appreciated to net some additional kills, but even though Focus Sash Dugtrio lacks the power to achieve some KOs, at the very least it still weaken the chosen target to the point you can easily kill it and, from there, you are going to have the upper hand towards the opponent's team.

===> A- seems good to me considering how effective it is at trapping.

It's absolutely detrimental in the sense that you must be laser-precise with your play with Dugtrio. One missed prediction and that guy loses either Focus Sash, faints, or loses enough health that he can't secure KOs on things like Chansey, Toxapex, etc.

That's why I say in theory Dugtrio is a huge problem; in practice you actually have to be really smart with him. If the opponent expects the switch and punishes the Dugtrio for it, it doesn't necessarily have the luxury of trapping and killing a lot of stuff because it still isn't THAT powerful and can't OHKO most of the meta.

 

[pubby]

What about scarf nido? it sounds pretty good, not tapu lele good but can still pull of a sweeper role style

It's outclassed by scarf Nihilego. Actually, in general Nidoking is outclassed by Nihilego and protean Greninja.

It's absolutely detrimental in the sense that you must be laser-precise with your play with Dugtrio. One missed prediction and that guy loses either Focus Sash, faints, or loses enough health that he can't secure KOs on things like Chansey, Toxapex, etc.

True, but even if you never bring Dugtrio out it's going to affect how your opponent plays. Trapping mind games, and all.

Outside of stall, I don't think Dugtrio is very hard to use. Revenge kill plays are obvious, as is using U-Turn more often than not. And even if you don't get a kill, you can at least deal good percent to whatever Pokemon is stopping your win condition.

Rising Dugtrio makes sense to me. Rising Nidoking does not.

 

[LeNorm]

It's outclassed by scarf Nihilego. Actually, in general Nidoking is outclassed by Nihilego and protean Greninja.


True, but even if you never bring Dugtrio out it's going to affect how your opponent plays. Trapping mind games, and all.

Outside of stall, I don't think Dugtrio is very hard to use. Revenge kill plays are obvious, as is using U-Turn more often than not. And even if you don't get a kill, you can at least deal good percent to whatever Pokemon is stopping your win condition.

Rising Dugtrio makes sense to me. Rising Nidoking does not.

Nihilego lacks Nidoking's coverage (HP fire/ice and thunderbolt < flamethrower and ice beam), and Nidoking has better stab combs - Ground > Rock (at least, imo). This means that Nidoking can take out Scizor/Ferrothorn and Landorus. In addition, Nihilego struggles with Heatran, whereas Nidoking eats Heatran for breakfast. Nihilego does have notably better speed, however, but I think they actually have different functions with Nihilego a better revenge killer, but Nidoking more versatile.

Greninja is another matter - both hit hard (after life orb and sheer force vs. protean and life orb), but Nidoking checks the Tapus (other than Lele) better than Greninja, as it has sludge wave and earth power as (STAB) special attacks, which means it doesn't have to go mixed if it wants to hit the fairies, unlike Greninja. Similarly, the aforementioned fire moves mean Nidoking is better against most steel types, at least compared to your standard Greninja. That said, Greninja does have water/dark coverage, and is more effective against Lele and other psychic pokemon.

I do really recommend giving Nidoking a go, if you haven't used it much, it really does do surprisingly well this generation.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Nihilego lacks Nidoking's coverage (HP fire/ice and thunderbolt < flamethrower and ice beam), and Nidoking has better stab combs - Ground > Rock (at least, imo). This means that Nidoking can take out Scizor/Ferrothorn and Landorus. In addition, Nihilego struggles with Heatran, whereas Nidoking eats Heatran for breakfast. Nihilego does have notably better speed, however, but I think they actually have different functions with Nihilego a better revenge killer, but Nidoking more versatile.

Greninja is another matter - both hit hard (after life orb and sheer force vs. protean and life orb), but Nidoking checks the Tapus (other than Lele) better than Greninja, as it has sludge wave and earth power as (STAB) special attacks, which means it doesn't have to go mixed if it wants to hit the fairies, unlike Greninja. Similarly, the aforementioned fire moves mean Nidoking is better against most steel types, at least compared to your standard Greninja. That said, Greninja does have water/dark coverage, and is more effective against Lele and other psychic pokemon.

I do really recommend giving Nidoking a go, if you haven't used it much, it really does do surprisingly well this generation.

Greninja OHKO's all faries with gunk shot outside of tapu fini (don't butcher me if I'm wrong about this) with 4 attack ev's as long as its protean which means it's not really mixed as all its ev's are still in speed and special attack. Greninja as far as I'm concerned should always be chosen over Nidoking as an attacking force.

 

[LeNorm]

Greninja OHKO's all faries with gunk shot outside of tapu fini (don't butcher me if I'm wrong about this) with 4 attack ev's as long as its protean which means it's not really mixed as all its ev's are still in speed and special attack. Greninja as far as I'm concerned should always be chosen over Nidoking as an attacking force.

You're right about the fairies, but Nidoking can also take out steel types with flamethrower/earth power, which Greninja typically cannot do.

 

[JTD783]

You're right about the fairies, but Nidoking can also take out steel types with flamethrower/earth power, which Greninja typically cannot do.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 242-283 (77.3 - 90.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 156-187 (39.1 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (better make sure it doesn't take prior damage)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Scizor-Mega: 359-426 (104.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 268-320 (89 - 106.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 377-447 (97.6 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (again, prior damage is a death sentence)

???

By now I think I've made my point. Gren deals with most Steel types well if it's HP Fire. Not sure on whether it should be S or A+ but it's clearly a massive threat to almost any team. The mons above are very common on "almost any team" and clearly aren't reliable answers.

Dartrix - Joker

The best Alolawak set atm is max attack adamant. Which means...

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, defense drops are a death sentence.

Otherwise I agree with what you said.

 

[Scribble]

Not going to go into detail into Dugtrio since I don't really have much else to contribute (Agreed to A-), Nidoking because I don't have a strong opinion on it (Disagreed), and Mega Scizor because it was summed up pretty nicely already (Agreed). However, there is something else I want to bring up.

Unranked -> C+
​

So as many people know, Stall is very prevalent right now in the meta, and is one of the best play styles. However, a noticeable stall pokemon, being Quagsire, is missing from the list. Whereas Shedinja, another exclusively stall mon, is ranked all the way in C+.

Quagsire serves its stall niche as an Unaware wall. While it faces competition from Clefable in this role, it does have some benefits over Clefable. For example, Quagsire has better physical bulk, which allows it to handle pretty much all variants of Zygarde outside of Toxic SubCoil just like Clefable can, as well as mons such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross, and Landorus-T better than Clefable can. It can also handle non-Bloom Doom Heatran, and Heatran in general is an issue for stall. Here's a replay of Quagsire stopping an odd offensive Zygarde set that could have swept the team thanks to a crit on the Thousand Arrows and Toxic miss:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-522877120
On top of that, Quagsire has some benefits such as Recover. Unaware Clefable can't run Softboiled, so it's stuck with 8 PP Moonlight that heals less in weather. Recovery is a 16 PP move that will never heal any less. Quagsire can also threaten mons immune to Toxic with Scald burns. And unlike Clefable, Quagsire doesn't have to fear random Poison or Steel coverage people are running to check the Tapus.

Quagsire also offers some nice defensive capabilities to the team. It is a secondary defensive wall after Skarmory, and offers protection from Electric type moves that Skarmory and Toxapex fear. Its typing also allows it to be an answer to Mamoswine, which is an issue for stall if Skarmory goes down. (Adamant max attack LO Earthquake on Quag is a 1/4 roll to 2HKO, and Scald 2HKOs Mamo).
Here's a replay showcasing more Quagsire stuff: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-522855458 While my opponent didn't really play the best in this match, it showcases Quagsire's ability to handle Mamoswine as well as one key mon which I believe is one of Quagsire's biggest appeals to stall. It can handle Alolan Marowak, which no other stall mons can really boast.

I'll throw in some miscellaneous replays that show Quagsire putting in some work, be it just being annoying for the opponent, or it not allowing anything to set up in its face.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-522862378
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-522391762

Edit for JTD: Yeah, I'm aware of that calc, which is why I said "handle" over check or counter.

 

[LeNorm]

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 242-283 (77.3 - 90.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 156-187 (39.1 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (better make sure it doesn't take prior damage)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Scizor-Mega: 359-426 (104.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 268-320 (89 - 106.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 377-447 (97.6 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (again, prior damage is a death sentence)

???

By now I think I've made my point. Gren deals with most Steel types well if it's HP Fire. Not sure on whether it should be S or A+ but it's clearly a massive threat to almost any team. The mons above are very common on "almost any team" and clearly aren't reliable answers.

Dartrix - Joker

The best Alolawak set atm is max attack adamant. Which means...

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, defense drops are a death sentence.

Otherwise I agree with what you said.

The above calcs don't show Greninja deals with the steel types than Nidoking. Indeed, half of them show the opposite, listing pokemon that actually take out Greninja, but not Nidoking.

How often does Greninja face magnezone after stealth rocks and a layer of spikes to have a chance of OHKOing, when Magnezone can OHKO greninja? Nidoking always OHKOs with Earth power, and OHKOs w/flamethrower often. Magnezone can OHKO Greninja in some situations (depending on what type Greninja is), whereas it cannot take out Nidoking, unless Nidoking switches in on the wrong move.
Similarly, a 0.4% 2HKO chance for Celesteela (which can OHKO Greninja if it Protean's to fire) after stealth rocks vs. a guaranteed 2HKO with (or 60% without) rocks, or a guaranteed 2HKO against Assault Vest Magearna vs a guaranteed 3HKO only after stealth rocks (esp. when Magearna can 1HKO Greninja, but 2HKOs Nidoking).

For roughly half the above mons, Greninja with HP fire does as well as Nidoking (and these are often ones with 4x weakness to fire), but for the other half Nidoking is notably more useful.

PS - My main comment wasn't Greninja needed taking down a step, but that Nidoking needed pushing up.

 

[TheMohZone]

How often does Greninja face magnezone after stealth rocks and a layer of spikes to have a chance of OHKOing, when Magnezone can OHKO greninja?

Why does it need to OHKO? Magnezone can't come in on a potential HP Fire, if Greninja is running it, so it can only Revenge Kill. Greninja user switches into their Volt Switch resist (Probably Lando-T) and unless your ballsy and click HP Ice (Why would you unless you have to, if the Greninja user stays in you lose your Magnezone) then your momentum is sapped something fierce.

Celesteele, similarly, it can just chip with Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Whatever over the course of the game, Celesteele needs to be in for an extended period of time to heal.

The only valid thing on that list Nido takes on better than Greninja outside a Vacuum is Magearna, and theres better shit in the tier to handle that.

Nidoking can hit alot of stuff in the tier with its coverage, and both its stabs are good offensively right now. However this is also a Tier dominated by Scarf Lele, Mega Metagross and Greninja Variants who beat Nidoking 1v1 Nidoking can beat them switching in, sure, but its not landing a hit otherwise unless its scarf which takes away alot of the benefit of Sheer Force, and without that extra power it may struggle.

Theres plenty of mons in the tier that can force the Tapus out on revenge. Nidoking is not special in that regard. Especially since it only outpaces half of them without scarf, and the other two OHKO or Turn out (Lele and Koko respectively). And that kinda sums up Nidoking. its the same as it always has been. its powerful and can hit almost anything, but its never getting a hit off. Sure you can play effectively to get it in an optimal position but...why would you? its more trouble than its worth.

Greninja, Scolipede and A.Muk have the Poison niche solidly on Lockdown. Greninja has that initial speed and power, Scolipede only requires a bit of set up and can sweep with incredible ease compared to a month ago with the discovery of the Z-Aqua Tail set, and A.Muk is a perfect Anti-Tapu Mon. Thats all its needed for and it does it beautifully.

I don't see what Nidoking does that isn't done better by something else in the tier. It takes on alot of roles in one slot, but sucks comparatively at all of them. Let UU have Nidoking where he isn't outpaced or made inert by anything and everything viable. or RU if thats where the power creep has gone.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

The above calcs don't show Greninja deals with the steel types than Nidoking. Indeed, half of them show the opposite, listing pokemon that actually take out Greninja, but not Nidoking.

How often does Greninja face magnezone after stealth rocks and a layer of spikes to have a chance of OHKOing, when Magnezone can OHKO greninja? Nidoking always OHKOs with Earth power, and OHKOs w/flamethrower often. Magnezone can OHKO Greninja in some situations (depending on what type Greninja is), whereas it cannot take out Nidoking, unless Nidoking switches in on the wrong move.
Similarly, a 0.4% 2HKO chance for Celesteela (which can OHKO Greninja if it Protean's to fire) after stealth rocks vs. a guaranteed 2HKO with (or 60% without) rocks, or a guaranteed 2HKO against Assault Vest Magearna vs a guaranteed 3HKO only after stealth rocks (esp. when Magearna can 1HKO Greninja, but 2HKOs Nidoking).

For roughly half the above mons, Greninja with HP fire does as well as Nidoking (and these are often ones with 4x weakness to fire), but for the other half Nidoking is notably more useful.

PS - My main comment wasn't Greninja needed taking down a step, but that Nidoking needed pushing up.

180 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 102-120 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 144-169 (91.7 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Nidoking beats these mons better than Greninja? To my knowledge most people run ice beam/thunderbolt and not flamethrower on Nidoking. Greninja's hp fire hits just as hard nidokings flamethrower so I mean... Greninja just beats nidoking in almost every area but defensive utility but shenanigans can still be made with protean. Nidoking is fine where it is.

 

[JTD783]

The above calcs don't show Greninja deals with the steel types than Nidoking. Indeed, half of them show the opposite, listing pokemon that actually take out Greninja, but not Nidoking.

How often does Greninja face magnezone after stealth rocks and a layer of spikes to have a chance of OHKOing, when Magnezone can OHKO greninja? Nidoking always OHKOs with Earth power, and OHKOs w/flamethrower often. Magnezone can OHKO Greninja in some situations (depending on what type Greninja is), whereas it cannot take out Nidoking, unless Nidoking switches in on the wrong move.
Similarly, a 0.4% 2HKO chance for Celesteela (which can OHKO Greninja if it Protean's to fire) after stealth rocks vs. a guaranteed 2HKO with (or 60% without) rocks, or a guaranteed 2HKO against Assault Vest Magearna vs a guaranteed 3HKO only after stealth rocks (esp. when Magearna can 1HKO Greninja, but 2HKOs Nidoking).

For roughly half the above mons, Greninja with HP fire does as well as Nidoking (and these are often ones with 4x weakness to fire), but for the other half Nidoking is notably more useful.

PS - My main comment wasn't Greninja needed taking down a step, but that Nidoking needed pushing up.

I wholeheartedly agree that Nidoking hits those mons harder than Gren, with the bonus of switching into many of them much easier. All I wanted to clarify was that Greninja can handle many of them after they are weakened. It doesn't switch in safely to a lot of them, but the calcs are to show that if they take chip damage, they aren't that safe either, allowing Gren to fulfill its role in cleaning up games. Celesteela, for example, is often used to check a plethora of offensive threats, and therefore its lack of recovery can lead it to being in range of a 2HKO in the late game. As for Magnezone, it generally pivots a lot to pressure the stuff it traps, and all those rocks add up after a while. Besides, if it takes even a little real damage it drops.

Nidoking is a solid C+ imo since it's a good wallbreaker with a decent speed tier; it's only somewhat low because the likes of Greninja (less powerful but much faster) and Hoopa-U (stronger but a little slower) are more splashable. Hoopa is a dedicated breaker, Gren cleans teams, and Nido is somewhat in between. What sells Nido for me is its good matchup versus defensive Lando-T, Zygarde, and Tapu Koko due to its movepool, speed, and typing. These are the kinds of metagame developments that really build its case for a rise. I wouldn't mind raising it to B- actually, but I'd also like to see Mimikyu, Alolan Muk, and Minior a bit higher as well, with Necrozma dropping from C+ to C and Mew dropping from B- to C+. Hopefully others will discuss this further.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I would like to nom Charizard Y for A rank.

Many poeple are spamming steel types right now and Charizard Y loves that. So many pokemon struggle against this thing as well its unreal most of the top tiers hate the sun on Charizard Y.
I can't get the fucking calculators to work with megas but I believe a choice specs regular greninja cannot OHKO charizard y under the sun which just shows its bulk there. The meta has changed in its favour imo. With steel type spam along with things like tapu fini sitting around this thing can just solar beam water types (like the bitch that is tapu fini) and destroy them. i feel like popel have been sleeping on this thing its damage is huge and it just checks so much in the meta right now i would say its on par with its zard-x counterpart. there are 2 things in the entire S-A tier that enjoy staying in on zard Y under the sun. Zygarde and tapu lele, and tapu lele can't exactly just swap in. If you don't see what I'm talking about here just use Zard-Y in a couple battles, peopel build teams that are so weak to it rn.