Resource Rain Discussion Thread (W4: Keldeo Competition)

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Take Azelfie

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Does Swanna have any viablity? It has STAB Hydro Pump, STAB Hurricane, Hydration Rest, decent filler moves like Ice Beam and U-turn. Along with usable stats and a good defensive tyling, I think Swanna could be a low tier pokemon in termsof rain viablity.
Swanna has those nice niches but I'll go into more detail to why it is outclassd.
  • Swanna has mediocre defenses and can get killed by most super effective attacks meaning it would have a hard time getting Rest off in the first place as well as its average speed.
  • Doesn't have much going for it as a Hydration user since it is outclassed by Manaphy has incredible set up and better coverage overall.
  • Hurricane is nice when the team needs all rain teams need a dedicated grass check but Tornadus (both) can fill this role better due to resisting grass moves and having role as AV, LO, and secondary rain setter as well as Therian being able to heal off damage on the switch.
  • As a rain sweeper or wall breaker is is outclassed by Omastar and Kingdra which hell as hard.
That is why for anyone that is reading/watching this that Swanna is NOT going to put on the rankings. Happy days.
P.S. 1 real comment on the ToTW well hopefully this next won will help stir up more talk.
 

Take Azelfie

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you have regular venusaur ranked in a "rain viability rankings" so i dont think you really have too much of a right to talk about things being outclassed
Welp I can't argue with you there, only used regular Venusaur is rain once and it did its job only OK and many people don't have any experience with even using Mega Venusaur in the rain either.. Since that comment got so much likes I'll remove it tomorrow when I make the changes.
 
Swanna has those nice niches but I'll go into more detail to why it is outclassd.
  • Swanna has mediocre defenses and can get killed by most super effective attacks meaning it would have a hard time getting Rest off in the first place as well as its average speed.
  • Doesn't have much going for it as a Hydration user since it is outclassed by Manaphy has incredible set up and better coverage overall.
  • Hurricane is nice when the team needs all rain teams need a dedicated grass check but Tornadus (both) can fill this role better due to resisting grass moves and having role as AV, LO, and secondary rain setter as well as Therian being able to heal off damage on the switch.
  • As a rain sweeper or wall breaker is is outclassed by Omastar and Kingdra which hell as hard.
That is why for anyone that is reading/watching this that Swanna is NOT going to put on the rankings. Happy days.
P.S. 1 real comment on the ToTW well hopefully this next won will help stir up more talk.
Yeah but it does all of those in one slot
 

MANNAT

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I agree. astroboy has been dying for a thread (lol) and tbh I'd like to see him with one.

On a more serious note there are honestly a lot of uneccesary things in the thread like "Who's My Sweeper" "Replays" "Sets" and the Pelliper Post. And yes the "Rain Viability Rankings" is just awful dude. You should view some previous threads and get an idea of what yours should ideally look like.

Last thing. What's up with the text size?
Yeah, I personally spoke to a moderator about this thread when it first started, as it was a pretty bad thread, and they said that they would deal with it if I waited some time for it.
 

Take Azelfie

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No one should feel bad being hateful because no matter what anyone post it always gives me an influence to help change this and make it better whether it is positive or negative. I will revamp the VR completely tonight making it a lot more, well viable. I'll fix the formatting and finsih of the cores and the Roles section. astroboy if you want to help towards this thread just PM me or leave a comment after tonight and I will take your advice.
Also just for clarification, the replays section is there to help people understand how rain works or just something cool to watch like a sweep or something.
 

Take Azelfie

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I updated the offensive cores section (still a WIP but it looks a lot better than before)
Added brief descriptions in each of the cores sections (not much to explain here)
Edited the Viability Rankings to be, well more viable. (as well as some changes that I am unsure about and people can discuss)
Removed the "whose my sweeper" section

My next projects are...
Fixing up the Pelipper Post and roles section
Finishing off offensive cores (You guys can help if I miss something when it is finished :D )
Finishing off the hazard setters and other sweepers section
Testing spreads for the sets (You guys can also help with this to
 
I updated the offensive cores section (still a WIP but it looks a lot better than before)
Added brief descriptions in each of the cores sections (not much to explain here)
Edited the Viability Rankings to be, well more viable. (as well as some changes that I am unsure about and people can discuss)
Removed the "whose my sweeper" section

My next projects are...
Fixing up the Pelipper Post and roles section
Finishing off offensive cores (You guys can help if I miss something when it is finished :D )
Finishing off the hazard setters and other sweepers section
Testing spreads for the sets (You guys can also help with this to
Tbh just copy the spreads from the EV Spread Compendium. They're mostly up to date (lol)

In the viability rankings Rotom-Mow should really be removed. Like there's really no much reason to use it over Rotom-W who can do what it does as well as fire off powerful Hydro Pumps.

Please just remove the Pelipper Post. It's supposed to be a resource, not a place where you advertise yourself and what you're doing.
 
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you changed literally two things for the "rain viability rankings" and honestly it looks just the same. ill just make a list of usable mons on rain that are actually mildly useful lol

great mons to use on rain
these pokemon define rain as a playstyle. any serious full-rain team should have a bare minimum of 3 of these listed mons

solid mons on rain
while they might not be seen as commonly, these pokemon can often make decent choices for rain teams, and are worth their salt in most cases. however, for one reason or another, these pokemon arent as worth the teamslot as consistently as they would in the abovs rank (ie volcoronas need for hazard control to be effective contradicts with rains fast-paced nature, or scizor being largely outclaased by its mega form)


granted this list might not be perfect and im sure ive missed a couple things, cause i made this in class lol this list already looks like a way more accurate and reasonable representation of what rain is/should be in the meta.

also what the hell is half of this? like what is the pelipper post? what does the star system say that the on-site analyses wouldn't say better? the amount of fluff in the OP(s) alone is crazy and something needs to be done about it. you know somethings wrong with a thread when it calls mega manectric and torn-t a "balance core"
 
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I'll just drop the sets of some rain mons here following astroboy's compendium


Support
248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe
Calm Nature

96 Speed EVs are enough for Politoed to outspeed max Speed Azumarill and lock it into Belly Drum with Encore if it has just used the move. The HP and Special Defense EVs in addition to a Calm nature are conducive to increasing Politoed's longevity and allow it to deal with threats such as Mega Charizard Y. Defense investment and a Bold nature can be run instead to better handle Pokemon such as Talonflame and Tyranitar, but these are fairly easy to cover with teammates and generally not much of a concern for rain teams.


Bulky Swords Dance
248 HP / 16 Atk / 44 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature

With just 248 HP and 16 Def EVs with an Impish nature, Mega Scizor avoids the 2HKO from maximum Attack Adamant Landorus-T's Earthquake, so it can afford to focus on investing in other stats instead of Defense. In particular, 200 Special Defense EVs ensure that Mega Scizor is never OHKOed by Clefable's Fire Blast and Timid Mega Diancie's Hidden Power Fire and never 2HKOed by Mega Gardevoir's Focus Blast and Life Orb Latios's Draco Meteor followed by -2 Hidden Power Fire, making Mega Scizor an effective check to some special attackers as well. The rest is invested into Attack, as this set is generally starved for power. If you wish to avoid the 2HKO from Jolly Lopunny's High Jump Kick, you may invest 44 EVs into Defense and reduce its Special Defense to 188 EV's and invest the remaining EV's into attack to make it a decent 28 EV's.

Offensive Swords Dance
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature

A simple spread of maximum Attack and Speed, along with an Adamant nature, allows Scizor to hit as hard and fast as possible. A Jolly nature can be used if you prefer outspeeding and outprioritizing opposing threats, such as maximum Speed Jolly Bisharp and Diggersby as well as Heatran variants with some Speed investment. Additionally, transferring some EVs from Speed to HP is optional for increasing overall bulk, although without Roost, the HP investment is usually not worth the trouble.

Defog
248 HP / 60 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature

Maximum HP, along with an Impish nature, optimizes Scizor's physical defense, enabling it better opportunities to use Defog and Roost as well as handle hard-hitting physical attacks multiple times. Significant investment in Special Defense is used to better check some special threats in a pinch, such as Mega Gardevoir, Gengar, and Latios lacking Hidden Power Fire. Investing in Attack is also optional if you prefer a little more firepower behind Bullet Punch, U-turn, and Superpower



Choice Specs
28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature

The given Speed EVs allow Kingdra to outpace Choice Scarf Latios and everything slower in the rain and Jolly base 70 Speed Pokemon such as Bisharp and Breloom outside of rain. Maximum investment into Special Attack ensures that Kingdra hits as hard as possible, and the remaining EVs are placed into HP for some additional bulk.

Mixed Wallbreaker
28 Atk / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Rash Nature

228 EVs are invested into Speed to outspeed everything up to Choice Scarf Latios in the rain, as well as Jolly base 70 Speed Pokemon such as Breloom and Bisharp outside of it. Maximum investment in Special Attack ensures that Kingdra hits as hard as possible, and the remaining EVs are invested into Attack to power up its physical moves. A Rash nature maximizes Kingdra's Special Attack and is chosen over a Mild nature to take priority attacks better. Alternately, an EV spread of 64 Atk / 216 SpA / 228 Spe could be used, which has enough Attack investment to ensure that Kingdra 2HKOes Chansey after Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes but comes at the cost of a significant Special Attack drop.



Spikes
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful / Calm Nature

Full HP investment is used to maximize Klefki's solid bulk, and a Careful nature and the Special Defense investment allows it to better take hits from the likes of Starmie, Keldeo, Thundurus, Gengar, and Mega Gardevoir. A Calm nature should be used with Foul Play, as preserving Klefki's Attack stat is not needed with Foul Play. Alternatively, a mixed defensive EV spread of 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD and a Bold or Impish nature can be used to handle threats such as Weavile, Dragon Dance Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, and Azumarill.

Dual Screens
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature

Maximum HP investment is important to take hits while setting up screens, and a Calm nature helps agaisnt the likes of Taunt users such as Gengar, Thundurus, and Mega Gardevoir. Light Clay increases the duration of Light Screen and Reflect. Prankster gives priority to all of Klefki's support moves, particularly Light Screen and Reflect. A physically defensive EV spread can be used to lessen the damage taken from physical attacks and Psyshock.



Offensive Support
72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
29 HP IVs

A Timid nature and maximum Speed investment is used to outspeed base 108 Speed Pokemon such as Keldeo and Terrakion and tie with opposing base 110 Speed Pokemon such as Mega Gallade, Latios, Latias, and Gengar. The given EV spread lets Latias avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice without Stealth Rock damage and also hits a Life Orb number. Lastly, a simple EV spread of 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe can be used if hitting hard is more beneficial to your team than the bulk.



Rain Sweeper
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

Maximum Attack investment with an Adamant nature makes Mega Swampert hit as hard as possible. Maximum Speed investment allows Mega Swampert to outspeed the whole unboosted metagame, as well as some slower Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Kyurem-B, under the rain. If outspeeding those two Pokemon is less of a priority and you would rather have more bulk, an alternative EV spread of 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe, which still outspeeds Mega Sceptile and Mega Beedrill, can be used.



Offensive
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature

An Adamant nature can be used for more power, but Jolly is superior, as Toxicroak is then guaranteed to outspeed Mega Heracross, regular Gardevoir, Gyarados, and Mamoswine, while Speed tying with regular Heracross. Finally, a Jolly nature lets Toxicroak take on sand offense reasonably well, as it outspeeds Adamant Excadrill outside of sand and Toxicroak is easily able to Drain Punch Tyranitar away. The EVs maximize Attack and Speed, making Toxicroak hit as hard as possible while also taking advantage of its decent Speed.



Life Orb Attacker
76 Atk / 180 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature

76 EVs go into Attack to allow Tornadus-T to specifically OHKO Tyranitar and Excadrill with Superpower and to be able to deal some damage with its other physical move, U-turn. 216 Speed investment with a Naive nature is all it needs to outspeed Pokemon that are base 115 Speed and under, such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar. The rest is dumped into Special Attack so that Hurricane can hit as hard as possible. Finally, Life Orb is the item of choice, as it bolsters attacking power, and the recoil isn't much of a problem due to Regenerator.

Assault Vest
168 HP / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

The EVs give Tornadus-T a guaranteed OHKO on Keldeo after Stealth Rock with Hurricane whilst allowing it to run Max Speed and still having some bulk to take on the likes of Gengar and Choice Specs Keldeo better.



Prankster Attacker
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

This Thundurus is a simple special attacker and thus requires maximized Special Attack and Speed. A Timid nature is recommended to make Thundurus as fast as possible

Mixed Attacker
76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature

76 EVs in Attack are used to juice up Knock Off, enabling Thundurus to OHKO Latios after Stealth Rock damage. Speed is maximized so that Thundurus can outrun base 110 Speed Pokemon as well as tie with opposing Thundurus and Tornadus, and the remaining EVs are put into Special Attack for more special offense.

Nasty Plot
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

This set should ideally be as fast and powerful as possible without relying on boosts, so maximizing Special Attack and Speed with a Timid nature is required.



Utility
252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed / Sassy Nature

The given EV spread with a Relaxed nature lets Ferrothorn fare well against both physically and specially oriented opponents. 168 Special Defense EVs give Ferrothorn enough special bulk to survive two Ice Beams from +3 Manaphy. A Sassy nature with the given EV spread allows Ferrothorn to survive the combination of Hyper Voice + Focus Blast from Modest Mega Gardevoir most of the time, while still avoiding the 2HKO from +1 Mega Gyarados's Earthquake most of the time; the downside is that this leaves Ferrothorn much more susceptible to Crunch from Mega Gyarados and physical attackers in general, so it isn't typically recommended. If there's a lot of stress on Ferrothorn to handle physical attackers such as Azumarill, Life Orb Excadrill, Mega Gyarados, and Diggersby, more Defense investment can be run to tank hit from these Pokemon more easily. An example of a more physically defensive spread is 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD avoids the 2HKO from Adamant Life Orb Excadrill after Stealth Rock damage.



AoA
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Maximum Speed and Special Attack investment enables Keldeo to be as fast and powerful as possible. A Timid nature is important to outspeed base 100 Speed Pokemon as well as Garchomp, and to Speed tie with Terrakion and opposing Keldeo.

Sub + CM
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Though it may seem odd to maximize offenses on a bulky setup sweeper, Keldeo needs an offensive spread so as to not be too heavily reliant on Calm Mind and still be able to check slower attackers as well as Speed tie with opposing Keldeo and Terrakion.

Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

A Timid nature enables Keldeo to outspeed opposing Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp and Victini, Kabutops in rain, and Adamant Dragonite at +2, as well as Speed tie with opposing Choice Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion. Additionally, it enables Keldeo to still outspeed a large portion of the metagame if it gets its Choice Scarf removed by Knock Off. A Modest nature still lets Keldeo outspeed most of the metagame and may be preferred to increase Keldeo's damage output. However, it fails to outspeed certain key threats, most notably Jolly Mega Charizard X after one Dragon Dance.



Offensive
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

With the given EVs, Mega Heracross can outspeed Adamant Bisharp while still retaining as much bulk and power as possible.



Choice Specs
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature

A Modest nature, Choice Specs, and maximum Special Attack investment are required to let Omastar wallbreak and clean effectively.



Rain Sweeper
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

252 Attack and Speed EVs maximize Kabutops's offensive potential. Life Orb provides a significant power boost at the cost of some HP. An Adamant nature provides a power boost, as a Jolly nature only allows Kabutops to beat Choice Scarf Terrakion, which can be handled by Aqua Jet.


Bulky Dragon Dance
88 HP / 192 Atk / 4 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature

The given Speed EVs allow Gyarados to outspeed Timid Noivern after a Dragon Dance. The HP and Defense EVs allow Gyarados to take a burned Ferrothorn's Power Whip from behind a Substitute, leaving the Substitute intact. They also prevent many Water-types, such as Slowbro without a Psychic-type move, from breaking Gyarados's Substitute in one hit. The remaining EVs are placed into Attack to make Gyarados's attacks hit reasonably hard after a single Dragon Dance. After Stealth Rock damage, a +1 Bounce can OHKO Calm Mega Venusaur and max HP Conkeldurr. With that said, Gyarados can opt to go slower in exchange for extra power. After a Dragon Dance, an investment of 176 Speed EVs guarantees that Gyarados will outspeed Raikou and Starmie.

RestTalk
248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature

The given EVs and nature maximize Gyarados's special bulk, and Intimidate softens physical blows considerably. 8 Speed EVs allow Gyarados to outspeed Adamant Azumarill. A physically defensive spread is also an option to allow Gyarados to check threats such as Mega Charizard X more effectively, but it sacrifices effectiveness against threats such as Keldeo.

Offensive Dragon Dance
252 Atk / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature

An Adamant nature with maximum Attack and Speed investment is recommended on this set to help maximize Gyarados's sweeping potential. 196 Speed investment with a Jolly Nature allows it to outpace base 135's.



Mega Dragon Dance
252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spe
Jolly Nature

252 Speed EVs allow Gyarados to outspeed Jolly Dragonite before a boost and Max Attack for maximum Attacking potential.



Literally Satan [Choice Scarf]
80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Shadow Tag lets Gothitelle trap and eliminate a wide array of Pokemon. 80 HP EVs let Gothitelle avoid the 3HKO from Seismic Toss and Night Shade, most notably from Chansey. Maximum Speed investment and a Timid nature are used in tandem with a Choice Scarf to outspeed Pokemon and with base 121 Speed or lower, such as Tornadus-T and Raikou, thus enabling Gothitelle to revenge kill weakened Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny and Keldeo. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to buff up Gothitelle's firepower. Note that if not running Rest, maximum Special Attack and Speed investment is also an option to have more overall power.

Choice Specs
168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature

Equipped with Choice Specs, Gothitelle hits decently hard and can take down a variety of Pokemon. 88 Speed EVs allow it to Speed creep uninvested Mega Scizor whilst making room for the 30 Speed IVs required for Hidden Power Fire, and maximum Special Attack investment raises Gothitelle's damage output significantly, allowing it to eliminate threats more effectively and efficiently. The rest of the EVs are dumped into HP for more bulk, letting Gothitelle avoid the 3HKO from Seismic Toss and Night Shade. An alternate spread of 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe can be used to Speed creep uninvested Skarmory, but outspeeding Mega Scizor before it U-turns out is quite important.



Mixed AoA Hoopa-Unbound
160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature

176 Spe EVs allow it to outspeed Jolly Bisharp and anything that tries to speed-creep it. The Mixed Attacking EVs allow it to attack from both sides of the spectrum.



Life Orb Attacker
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
29 HP IV's

A Timid nature in tandem with maximum Special Attack and Speed EVs ensures that Latios Speed ties with opposing base 110s while hitting as hard as possible. Life Orb is the best item to use for this set, as it provides immediate power without locking Latios into a move. Using 29 HP IVs and 4 Defense EVs minimizes Life Orb recoil. If running Earthquake, a Hasty nature should be used to guarantee the OHKO on Heatran after Stealth Rock; it should be chosen over Naive so that Latios can check special attackers such as Mega Manectric, Manaphy, and Keldeo better.

Calm Mind
252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed maximizes Latios's sweeping potential. A Timid nature is used to Speed tie with opposing base 110s, such as Gengar, Mega Diancie, and Latias, as well as outpace slower Pokemon such as Garchomp, Manaphy, and Keldeo. Life Orb is used to augment the damage output of Latios's attacks significantly, and running 29 HP IVs and 4 Defense EVs minimizes Life Orb recoil.

Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Because this set is focused on revenge killing, maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed with a Timid nature is used to let Latios hit as hard and be as fast as possible.



Life Orb Attacker
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
29 HP IV's

Lucario's EV spread is common for physical sweepers, having maximum Attack and Speed in order to function as an effective wallbreaker or late-game cleaner. There's no point in ever using Jolly nature because Lucario fails to outspeed anything relevant with it. Using Jolly nature over an Adamant nature would only make it harder for Lucario to perform its role as a late-game cleaner, having a noticeable decrease in power.



Stealth Rock Lead
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
29 HP IV's

A Jolly nature and 252 Speed EVs allow Mamoswine to outspeed Breloom, Bisharp, Gallade before it Mega Evolves, and bulky Jirachi and set up Stealth Rock before it gets hit. Focus Sash guarantees that Mamoswine can set up Stealth Rock by allowing Mamoswine to take any one hit. Maximum Attack investment takes advantage of Mamoswine's base 130 Attack stat and gives Ice Shard the power it needs to revenge kill.

Life Orb Attacker
244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
29 HP IV's

244 Attack EVs take advantage of its base 130 Attack stat. The Special Attack investment allows Mamoswine to 2HKO bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W and Slowbro with Freeze-Dry. Maximum Speed and a Naive nature lets Mamoswine Speed tie with Gallade before it Mega Evolves and outspeed Breloom and Dragonite. 29 HP IVs reduce Life Orb recoil by 1 point.



TG + 3 Attacks
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Max Speed EVs with a Timid nature let Manaphy Speed Tie Max Speed, positive nature base 100's such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Charizard. Maximum Special Attack investment is used to allow Manaphy to hit as hard as possible.

Tail Glow + Rain Dance
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252Spe
Timid Nature

Max Speed EVs and a Timid nature let Manaphy tie with positive-natured Pokemon with base 100 Speed, such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Charizard. Maximum Special Attack EVs are used so that Manaphy can hit as hard as possible, and the remaining EVs are tossed into HP so that Manaphy can sponge attacks more easily

Calm Mind
240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature

16 Speed EVs are used to outspeed Adamant Bisharp. Manaphy already has Calm Mind to boost its special bulk, so the remaining EVs are put in Defense and HP. A Bold nature is used to further bolster Manaphy's Defense.



Offensive Stealth Rock
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive / Jolly Nature

The given EV spread maximizes Garchomp's Attack and Speed. A Jolly nature should be used in tandem with Swords Dance, while a Naive nature works best with Fire Blast.

Choice Scarf
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature

A Jolly nature in tandem with maximum Attack and Speed investment enables Garchomp to hit 333 Speed, which, when equipped with a Choice Scarf, is enough to outspeed certain Pokemon such as +1 Volcarona, Dragonite, Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, and Choice Scarf Landorus-T. If you opt for Fire Blast, a Naive nature is recommended to maximize its damage output. An Adamant nature is a viable alternative over Jolly for more power, but Garchomp then risks being outsped by +1 base 90 Speed Pokemon with a speed-boosting nature.

Mixed Attacker
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature

A Naive nature in tandem with maximum Special Attack and Speed investment gives Garchomp the power it needs to take advantage of Draco Meteor.

TankChomp
248 HP / 168 Def / 76 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature

The EV spread gives Garchomp the Special Defense needed to survive powerful hits from Pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y, Gengar, Keldeo, and Mega Diancie, while still retaining the optimum amount of physical bulk. The Speed EVs enable Garchomp to outspeed neutral-natured base 70 Speed Pokemon such as Bisharp and Breloom, as well as Jolly Tyranitar. However, an alternative EV spread of 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe can be used to outspeed Jolly Bisharp, which is critical against Swords Dance variants, as a +2 Sucker Punch will never OHKO Garchomp, which KOes it back with Earthquake.

Sub + Swords Dance
12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

Maximum Attack and Speed investment in tandem with a Jolly nature enables Garchomp to outpace the overcrowded base 100 Speed tier, while simultaneously maximizing its damage output. 12 HP EVs are needed to ensure that the Salac Berry activates after the third Substitute. Alternatively, investing EVs into HP gives Garchomp more staying power and is more beneficial against bulkier teams because they often lack ways of reliably breaking Garchomp's Substitute.



Mixed Attacker
132 Atk / 160 SpA / 216 Spe
Mild Nature

The given EV spread guarantees a 2HKO on Clefable with Iron Head while maximizing the power of Jirachi's special coverage moves and outspeeding everything up to Kyurem-B. If outspeeding or at least tying with opposing base 100s is desired, then an EV spread of 132 Atk / 124 SpA / 252 Spe with a Hasty nature can be run.

Choice Scarf
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

252 Attack EVs allow Jirachi to hit as hard as possible. Maximum Speed EVs and a Jolly nature allow it to outpace Choice Scarf Pokemon, such as Kyurem-B and Landorus-T, while also Speed tying with Timid Mega Gardevoir after the loss of Choice Scarf due to Trick.

Pivot
252 HP / 176 SpD / 80 Spe
Careful Nature

The given EV spread allows Jirachi to outspeed Adamant Diggersby, Adamant Bisharp, and Jolly Tyranitar. With heavy Special Defense investment, it is optimized to tank hits from the likes of Latios, Latias, and Mega Gardevoir rather well.

Specially Defensive
252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature

The EV spread maximizes Jirachi's special bulk while allowing it to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar and Adamant Bisharp.

Substitute
252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature

The EVs provide Jirachi with enough Speed to outrun Mega Tyranitar, Mega Metagross, Mega Scizor, and Mega Heracross, while giving it the bulk to check threats like Latios and Latias and create 101 HP Substitutes. The Attack investment allows it to wear down foes more effectively.



Choice Band
172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature

The given EV spread hits a Speed stat of 157, which allows Azumarill to outpace uninvested base 60 Speed Pokemon, such as Clefable and Sylveon. If outspeeding support Tyranitar is appealing, then 92 Speed EVs should be used. 164 Speed EVs outpace uninvested base 70 Speed Pokemon, which includes bulky Bisharp and Skarmory. The Attack EVs should be maximized in every instance, however, as they ensure that Azumarill will hit as hard as possible. Choice Band is the item of choice to further boost its power.

Belly Drum
92 HP / 252 Spe / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature

The given EV spread, which allows Azumarill to hit 177 Speed, is optimized to outspeed uninvested base 70 Speed Pokemon and below, which includes Skarmory, Tyranitar, and Clefable. Maximum Attack investment and an Adamant nature are used to give Azumarill as much power as possible. The remaining EVs go into HP to give Azumarill a little bulk, and the HP number is even to ensure that its Sitrus Berry is activated after the Belly Drum. Sitrus Berry is the item of choice to give Azumarill HP back after using Belly Drum, which allows it to survive longer.

Assault Vest
240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature

An Adamant nature and maximum Attack investment allow Azumarill to hit as hard as possible. 240 HP EVs give Azumarill great bulk while also ensuring that Seismic Toss fails to 4HKO. 16 EVs in Special Defense allow Azumarill to reach a Special Defense stat of 300 after the Assault Vest boost, which bolsters its role as an offensive tank. An alternative EV spread of 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 SpD with an Adamant nature can be used to give Azumarill a lot more Special Defense, but Azumarill then loses out on overall bulk and fails to take physical hits as well.



Offensive Swords Dance
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature

A simple spread of maximum Attack and Speed, along with an Adamant nature, allows Scizor to hit as hard and fast as possible. A Jolly nature can be used if you prefer outspeeding and outprioritizing opposing threats, such as maximum Speed Jolly Bisharp and Diggersby as well as Heatran variants with some Speed investment. Additionally, transferring some EVs from Speed to HP is optional for increasing overall bulk, although without Roost, the HP investment is usually not worth the trouble.

Choice Band
248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature

This Scizor enjoys as much power and bulk as possible to maximize its pivoting capabilities, necessitating heavy investment in Attack and HP as well as an Adamant nature. Investing in Speed to outrun defensive foes such as Rotom-W, Heatran, and Mega Venusaur is also worth consideration, although doing so without moderation greatly reduces Scizor's bulk or offense.

Bulky Swords Dance
248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Impish Nature

The spread allows Scizor to survive a 2HKO from LO Weavile's Knock Off after Stealth Rocks barring a crit, so you can safely Roost to stay healthy for later. It also walls Mega Metagross with SR up and Timid Mega Gardevoir fails to KO with a combination Hyper Voice + Focus Blast, but this is without hazards up. A more Specially Defensive spread can be run if Gardevoir is deemed the biggest threat and would also help with Gengar.



AoA
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature

Maximum Speed EVs with a Speed-boosting nature are used in order to get the most of Mega Sceptile's revenge killing ability; if Mega Sceptile is using a Special Attack-boosting nature it loses out on being able to revenge kill Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric. Even though Hidden Power Fire drops Mega Sceptile's Speed IV to 30, maximum Speed investment should still be used so that you can at least Speed tie other Mega Sceptile with Hidden Power Fire. A Naive nature is chosen on sets with Earthquake so that you don't drop either of Mega Sceptile's offensive stats. If you're using only Focus Blast for coverage against Steel-types, a Timid nature should be used to prevent any unnecessary hindrance to Mega Sceptile's Special Defense. Maximum Special Attack investment is used to ensure it hits as hard as possible.

Substitute
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

Maximum Speed and Special Attack investment with a Timid nature should be used to hit as hard as possible without sacrificing any Speed. If Mega Sceptile were to use a Modest nature, for example, it wouldn't be able to revenge kill Mega Lopunny or Mega Manectric.



Choice Specs
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

The Special Attack and Speed EVs enable Raikou to outrun Thundurus whilst hitting as hard as possible.

Assault Vest
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

The EVs provide max Speed to outrun many threats and give Raikou a max damage output. Maximum Speed is run to tie with Starmie.

Calm Mind
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

The Special Attack and Speed EVs enable Raikou to outrun many threats whilst hitting as hard as possible.



Swords Dance
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature

Attack and Speed are maximized to give Pinsir the greatest possible chance of outspeeding and KOing its foes, and with a Jolly nature, Mega Pinsir outspeeds base 100 Speed Pokemon such as Charizard, Mega Gardevoir, and Mew. One can opt for an Adamant nature should they desire a greater damage output, though Pinsir is generally better off making the most of its Speed tier.



AoA
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature

A Jolly nature is preferred, as an Adamant nature does not help Medicham land any extra KOs and it lets Medicham Speed tie with opposing base positive-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon, such as Mega Gardevoir, Victini, and Mega Charizard Y. Maximum Attack and Speed investment allows Medicham to be as fast and strong as possible.



Rock Polish
68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature

180 Speed EVs with an Adamant let Mega Metagross outpace neutral-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon unboosted and outspeed everything up to Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill with Rock Polish. Maximum Attack is needed to deal as much damage as possible and the remaining EVs go into HP for extra bulk. A max Speed spread with a Jolly nature is also viable on this set, particularly for teams that are weak to Keldeo.

AoA
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature

Maximum Attack and Speed investment is needed to hit as hard and fast as possible, while a Jolly nature is used to ensure a Speed tie against opposing base 110 Speed Pokemon. Clear Body prevents stat drops from Intimidate and Sticky Web. Alternatively, an Adamant nature can be used with HP investment to better act as an offensive tank, as such a set is both more powerful and more durable than the Jolly set. The best EV spread to use is 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe, which outspeeds everything up to Jolly Excadrill. Additionally, the increase in power from using an Adamant nature is incredible. For example, Mega Metagross achieves a guaranteed 2HKO against physically defensive Mega Sableye, which is an otherwise very solid check to Mega Metagross, as well as a general increase in power.



Technician Attacker
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
29 HP IV's

The EVs increase Breloom's offensive potential. A Jolly nature allows Breloom to Speed tie with opposing Bisharp and Breloom and the likes of Custap Berry Skarmory as well as Metagross and Modest Gardevoir prior to Mega Evolving.

Poison Heal
12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

12 HP EVs maximize Poison Heal recovery. A Jolly nature in tandem with 252 Speed EVs allows Breloom to Speed tie with opposing Bisharp and Breloom and the likes of Custap Berry Skarmory as well as Metagross and Modest Gardevoir prior to Mega Evolving. The rest of the EVs are invested into Attack for more power.



Baton Pass
252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold / Impish Nature

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximize Celebi's physical bulk to let it take hits from the likes of Azumarill and Mega Lopunny while outspeeding Jolly Bisharp in order to Baton Pass before it uses Pursuit. A specially defensive EV spread of 252 HP / 148 SpD / 108 Spe can be used to take hits better from the likes of Kingdra, Raikou, Latios, Latias, and Keldeo. If Substitute is chosen, a more specific EV spread of 252 HP / 104 Def / 44 SpD / 108 Spe with a Calm nature can be used to prevent Choice Specs Keldeo's Scald from breaking the Substitute. Note that an Impish nature should be used with Seed Bomb.

Support
252 HP / 156 Def / 84 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature

The given EV spread and a Bold nature maximize Celebi's overall bulk, notably avoiding the 2HKO from Adamant Mega Lopunny's Return after Stealth Rock damage while outspeeding Adamant Bisharp to escape its Pursuit with Baton Pass or cripple it with Thunder Wave. A faster EV spread of 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe can be used if Jolly Bisharp is an issue for your team. Using an EV spread of 252 HP / 144 Def / 96 SpD / 16 Spe gives Thundurus a significantly smaller chance to 2HKO Celebi with Life Orb-boosted Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock.

Nasty Plot + 2 Attacks
252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature

The given EV spread, along with a Bold nature, allows Celebi to outrun Jolly base 70 Speed Pokemon, Bisharp in particular, while giving it as much physical bulk as is allowed. With 252 HP / 148 Def, Celebi can reliably switch into and avoid being felled by common attacks; for example, it avoids the 2HKO from Azumarill's Knock Off and Play Rough, Jolly Mega Lopunny's Return, and Life Orb Excadrill's Iron Head, and it avoids the OHKO from Life Orb Jolly Bisharp's Knock Off and Landorus-T's U-turn. If Celebi runs Hidden Power Fire, then an alternate spread of of 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Spe should be used. Alternative EV spreads with a more offensive nature can be used for an offensive-focused playstyle rather than a defensive one. For instance, a spread of 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe with a Modest nature lets Celebi outspeed Timid Heatran and provides maximum damage output. More Speed investment with any nature is optional but lessens Celebi's bulk and consequently the number of Pokemon it can reliably check.



Offensive Swords Dance
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

252 Speed EVs enable Talonfame to at least Speed tie with opposing Talonflame and outspeed opposing Weavile, thus avoiding getting revenge killed by Ice Shard if weakened. 168 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature can be used if you're not worried about opposing Talonflame; they're still enough to outspeed Thundurus, Choice Scarf Magnezone, and specifically Raikou, beyond which there are no relevant threats worth outspeeding that aren't already hit harder by Brave Bird than Flare Blitz, and the spread gives Talonflame a bit more bulk, which helps it set up. 252 Attack EVs maximize Talonflame's damage output, and the rest are put into bulk in order for Talonflame to set up more easily and switch into Stealth Rock twice.

Bulky Swords Dance
248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature

Because Talonflame has priority on its only offensive move, it does not need Speed in order to sweep. 248 HP EVs enable Talonflame to take hits better and give it an easier time setting up. Maximizing Talonflame's Attack stat and giving it an Adamant nature enables it to hit hard after a boost, OHKOing the likes of Latios, Mamoswine, Starmie, and Azumarill after Stealth Rock damage after a Swords Dance boost. 8 Speed EVs enable Talonflame to outspeed Kyurem-B running a neutral Speed nature and burn it. Having 60 Speed EVs is also an option, enabling Talonflame to outspeed Jolly Excadrill outside of sand. Running 88 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature is an option to outspeed Mega Pinsir and KO it before it can hit Talonflame with Quick Attack, as well as outspeed and burn Garchomp. 176 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature can also be used to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar, but it sacrifices a lot of bulk, so it isn't worth it in most cases

Specially Defensive
248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature

Maximizing Talonflame's Special Defense enables it to switch into special attackers such as Mega Charizard Y, Mega Altaria, Clefable, and as well as Gengar to a lesser extent. 8 Speed EVs enable Talonflame to outspeed and burn neutral-natured Kyurem-B. 60 Speed can also be run in order to outspeed Jolly Excadrill.

Revenge Killer
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature

Maximized offenses with an Jolly nature enable Talonflame to hit as hard as it possibly can while outspeeding Thundurus, Raikou, Choice Scarf Magnezone, Choice Scarf Tyranitar, and Weavile and at least Speed tie with opposing Talonflame. However, an Adamant nature allows Talonflame to hit even harder at the cost of not being able to outspeed a few Pokemon when using Flare Blitz, though it can still outspeed everything up to base 110 Speed Pokemon.



Life Orb
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature

252 Speed EVs and a positive nature are needed to allow Terrakion to outrun as many foes as possible. Use a Naive nature if you are using Hidden Power Ice, and a Jolly nature if you are using Substitute or Quick Attack. 252 Attack EVs are used to provide optimal physical power.

Stealth Rock
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

Maximum Speed investment with a Jolly nature lets Terrakion outspeed Pokemon such as Garchomp, Landorus, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Pinsir, which Terrakion can't outspeed with an Adamant nature. Maximum Attack investment gives Terrakion some solid power, which is really useful with a great STAB combination in Close Combat and Stone Edge.

Choice Scarf
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

Maximum Attack investment is used for maximum power. With maximum Speed investment, a Jolly nature, and a Choice Scarf, Terrakion outspeeds many Pokemon it usually doesn't, such as Latios, Latias, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Gengar, and Thundurus. It also allows Terrakion to outspeed almost every relevant Choice Scarf user in the tier, including Garchomp, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Heatran, and Rotom-W, as well as all relevant Dragon Dance users at +1, such as Dragonite, Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Tyranitar. Alternatively, an Adamant nature is viable for the Attack increase; however, it misses out on outrunning +1 Jolly Mega Charizard X and Choice Scarf Garchomp as well as tying with Choice Scarf Keldeo, making it an inferior option in most cases.



Life Orb
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
29 HP IV's

The EV spread gives Weavile the most power and Speed needed for hitting hard and quick, a dire prerequisite due to its frailty. A Jolly nature lets Weavile outspeed other fast Pokemon such as Starmie, Latios, and Gengar



Offensive Quiver Dance
72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature

Special Attack is maximised because Volcarona needs as much firepower as possible. The Speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Volcarona to outspeed Choice Scarf Landorus-T at +1, and anything under base 92 Speed. The rest of the EVs are put into HP to increase Volcarona's bulk in order to take hits better while setting up. Alternatively, maximum Speed allows Volcarona to at least tie with other base 100 Speed Pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Charizard X before a boost.



Belly Drum
12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

12 HP EVs are used to ensure Chesnaught hits 25% of its health to activate the Salac Berry and keep as much health as possible. The rest of the EVs are put into Attack and then Speed for offense. Salac Berry is crucial for Chesnaught to sweep, as the Speed boost will enable Chesnaught to outpace its foes.

Physically Defensive
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature

The EVs are standard for a physical tank such as Chesnaught: max Defense and HP to make it as physically bulky as possible. More Attack and Speed can be used for more offensive prowess, at the cost of some bulk.



Offensive Toxic Spikes
228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 Spe
Modest Nature

28 Speed EVs are used to outspeed Hippowdon, which would otherwise 2HKO with Earthquake. Maximum Special Attack EVs are used so that Dragalge can hit as hard as possible, and the rest of the EVs are put in HP so that Dragalge has good mixed bulk. 140 Speed EVs, at the expense of HP, can be used if you need Dragalge to outspeed Clefable and hit it with a powerful Sludge Wave before it can use Calm Mind or Tyranitar so that Dragalge can hit it with Focus Blast. If Dragalge is using Hidden Power Fire, Tyranitar isn't necessary to outspeed, so only 136 Speed EVs would be needed.

Choice Specs
228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 Spe
Modest Nature

In order to outspeed Hippowdon, which would otherwise cripple Dragalge with Earthquake, it's recommended for Dragalge to run 28 Speed EVs. Because Dragalge is a specially based wallbreaker, maximum Special Attack EVs are used. The remaining EVs are thrown into HP because Dragalge enjoys having mixed bulk. 140 Speed EVs, at expense of HP, can be used if you desire Dragalge to outspeed Calm Mind Clefable and Tyranitar so that Dragalge can hit them with Sludge Wave or Focus Blast, respectively. If Dragalge is using Hidden Power Fire, only 136 Speed EVs would be needed, as outspeeding Tyranitar wouldn't be a priority.

Specially Defensive
248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature

28 Speed EVs are used to outspeed Hippowdon, which would otherwise outspeed and 2HKO with Earthquake. 248 EVs are put in HP for maximum mixed walling potential, and the rest are put in Special Defense, as Dragalge should opt to specialize in walling specially based Pokemon.


Except for some obvious stuff like Torn-I, Thundy-T and Ludicolo that's all of em.

Please delete the third post you made in this thread and add it to the OP instead. All that text make my eyes bleed. :/ And please put it in hide tags
 
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Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
astroboy KidMagic Thanks so much this will definately help out with the sets, these ones were pretty obvious and I'll be doing some of the more uncommon ones later when I get the chance.

E: also adding these as well.
 
you changed literally two things for the "rain viability rankings" and honestly it looks just the same. ill just make a list of usable mons on rain that are actually mildly useful lol

great mons to use on rain
these pokemon define rain as a playstyle. any serious full-rain team should have a bare minimum of 3 of these listed mons

solid mons on rain
while they might not be seen as commonly, these pokemon can often make decent choices for rain teams, and are worth their salt in most cases. however, for one reason or another, these pokemon arent as worth the teamslot as consistently as they would in the abovs rank (ie volcoronas need for hazard control to be effective contradicts with rains fast-paced nature, or scizor being largely outclaased by its mega form)


granted this list might not be perfect and im sure ive missed a couple things, cause i made this in class lol this list already looks like a way more accurate and reasonable representation of what rain is/should be in the meta.

also what the hell is half of this? like what is the pelipper post? what does the star system say that the on-site analyses wouldn't say better? the amount of fluff in the OP(s) alone is crazy and something needs to be done about it. you know somethings wrong with a thread when it calls mega manectric and torn-t a "balance core"
I'd really like to see Seismitoad in the solid mons on rain list. While it lacks the power of other Swift Swim users, it has just enough to justify it's use. It also has great coverage with Focus Blast and Sludge Wave, and an immunity to Thunder Wave makes it a nice Mega Swamp replacement if you want to use your mega on something else. A set like this puts in work:

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power

Otherwise these rankings look a lot better than the old ones
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Yeah I agree the VR needs some serious revamping, but it's definitely salvageable so don't sweat it.

Toxicroak is definitely not a high tier rain sweeper. Yes it works very well on rain and can help deal with many of rain's checks such as Mega Venu, bulky Waters, Ferro, and Keldeo, but it's just so hard to fit it on a rain team that I really can't see it being compared to rain staples such as Kingdra, Ferro, and Torn-T. It can work well under the right circumstances, but it's not something you can afford to just slap on most rain teams and call it a day. It's definitely a perfect mid tier Pokemon on rain, as it can be very effective with the right support but it just can't find its way on rain teams like most of the Pokemon found in Top level.

I agree that Mega Hera or Mega Pinsir could probably move to top, but prerrably Mega Hera in my opinion, as it not only breaks most of what Mega Pinsir is designed to beat on rain such as Mega Venu, Ferro, Celebi, and Bisharp. It's slower and lacks priority like Pinsir, but Mega Hera's main purpose on rain is to beat what rain struggles with, and it really doesn't need much support at all to accomplish this. Mega Pinsir still does a great job at picking those mons apart, but tbh Mega Pinsir on its own needs a decent amount of support to be very effective, as SR severely hinders how often it can come in and mindlessly spam Return, and while Defog isn't uncommon on rain, Mega Pinsir can often force you to play a LOT more aggressively to keep SR off the field, as most rain teams wont have too many opportunities to bring something like Latios in to Defog. Mega Hera is by no means immune to hazards, but Mega Hera just seems to fulfill its job as a rain wallbreaker more effectively than Pinsir, without needing as much support, which is why I think Mega Hera should be top tier while Mega Pinsir feels like it fits better in mid tier. The fact that a healthy Mega Hera can also take on Thundy, Raikou, and Mega Mane (with rain up), 3 huge threats to rain, is huge for it as well.

Quag, Roserade, Forry, and Chansey just don't seem solid enough at all on rain to ever be used as much as something like Mega Pinsir or Omastar lol. Defensive rain is pretty bad considering you're much better off just taking advantage of how many good offensive abusers of rain there are, and how most of the defensive Pokemon found on rain can easily be taken advantage of and rely on rain, which only lasts for 8 turns. The reason why offensive rain teams are so effective is because in just those 8 turns, Pokemon such as Kingdra, Torn-T, and Kabutops are able to deal so damage considering that not much in the tier is able to handle rain boosted Hydro's and Waterfalls or Hurricane spam coming from Pokemon that outspeed most of the metagame. A key strategy in playing rain very successfully is trying to keep up the momentum as much as possible in order to fully benefit from the few turns of rain, which is easy to do with a faster paced team, but with slower, more passive threats, your momentum is going to be killed a LOT, thus not taking full advantage of rain's benefits. On defensive teams, most of the time you're going to be switching quite a bit, as well as spamming recovery moves or occasionally setting up hazards. Tent is a mediocre spinner even IN rain, and outside of rain it's worn down very easily. Roserade is mostly outclassed by Amoonguss defensively, and offensively you're better off using Mega Venu as it is MUCH bulkier and still hits plenty hard. Forretress is just COMPLETE ass as a hazard remover because it loses to literally every spin blocker in the tier and is just complete Mega Sableye food, so up against any Mega Sableye team you're NEVER going to get up hazards or spin. Chansey is just extremely niche to very defensive teams, and I can't see Chansey wanting to be put onto a rain team considering it just makes it even more Manaphy bait, especially if you lack Goth.

Also fuck no leave Carracosta unranked. It's almost completely outclassed as a Smasher by Omastar, and physically Kabutops is just far superior. Being outsped by practically every relevant Scarfer REALLY sucks too. I can't see it being useful as anything else, it sounds pretty horrible defensively too.

tl;dr

Toxicroak > Mid Level
Mega Hera > Top Level
Drop Quag, Rosy, Forretress, and Chansey completely
 
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Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
I'd really like to see Seismitoad in the solid mons on rain list. While it lacks the power of other Swift Swim users, it has just enough to justify it's use. It also has great coverage with Focus Blast and Sludge Wave, and an immunity to Thunder Wave makes it a nice Mega Swamp replacement if you want to use your mega on something else. A set like this puts in work:

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power

Otherwise these rankings look a lot better than the old ones
The thing that holds Seismitoad from being on most rain teams is due to its lower special attack and is generally outclassed by lets say Omastar and Kingdra. Very good pick that I find myself using a lot, but not top tier
Also Seismitoad is special mega Swampert is physcial so not necessarily a replacement.
Yeah I agree the VR needs some serious revamping, but it's definitely salvageable so don't sweat it.

Toxicroak is definitely not a high tier rain sweeper. Yes it works very well on rain and can help deal with many of rain's checks such as Mega Venu, bulky Waters, Ferro, and Keldeo, but it's just so hard to fit it on a rain team that I really can't see it being compared to rain staples such as Kingdra, Ferro, and Torn-T. It can work well under the right circumstances, but it's not something you can afford to just slap on most rain teams and call it a day. It's definitely a perfect mid tier Pokemon on rain, as it can be very effective with the right support but it just can't find its way on rain teams like most of the Pokemon found in Top level.

I agree that Mega Hera or Mega Pinsir could probably move to top, but prerrably Mega Hera in my opinion, as it not only breaks most of what Mega Pinsir is designed to beat on rain such as Mega Venu, Ferro, Celebi, and Bisharp. It's slower and lacks priority like Pinsir, but Mega Hera's main purpose on rain is to beat what rain struggles with, and it really doesn't need much support at all to accomplish this. Mega Pinsir still does a great job at picking those mons apart, but tbh Mega Pinsir on its own needs a decent amount of support to be very effective, as SR severely hinders how often it can come in and mindlessly spam Return, and while Defog isn't uncommon on rain, Mega Pinsir can often force you to play a LOT more aggressively to keep SR off the field, as most rain teams wont have too many opportunities to bring something like Latios in to Defog. Mega Hera is by no means immune to hazards, but Mega Hera just seems to fulfill its job as a rain wallbreaker more effectively than Pinsir, without needing as much support, which is why I think Mega Hera should be top tier while Mega Pinsir feels like it fits better in mid tier. The fact that a healthy Mega Hera can also take on Thundy, Raikou, and Mega Mane (with rain up), 3 huge threats to rain, is huge for it as well.

Quag, Roserade, Forry, and Chansey just don't seem solid enough at all on rain to ever be used as much as something like Mega Pinsir or Omastar lol. Defensive rain is pretty bad considering you're much better off just taking advantage of how many good offensive abusers of rain there are, and how most of the defensive Pokemon found on rain can easily be taken advantage of and rely on rain, which only lasts for 8 turns. The reason why offensive rain teams are so effective is because in just those 8 turns, Pokemon such as Kingdra, Torn-T, and Kabutops are able to deal so damage considering that not much in the tier is able to handle rain boosted Hydro's and Waterfalls or Hurricane spam coming from Pokemon that outspeed most of the metagame. A key strategy in playing rain very successfully is trying to keep up the momentum as much as possible in order to fully benefit from the few turns of rain, which is easy to do with a faster paced team, but with slower, more passive threats, your momentum is going to be killed a LOT, thus not taking full advantage of rain's benefits. On defensive teams, most of the time you're going to be switching quite a bit, as well as spamming recovery moves or occasionally setting up hazards. Tent is a mediocre spinner even IN rain, and outside of rain it's worn down very easily. Roserade is mostly outclassed by Amoonguss defensively, and offensively you're better off using Mega Venu as it is MUCH bulkier and still hits plenty hard. Forretress is just COMPLETE ass as a hazard remover because it loses to literally every spin blocker in the tier and is just complete Mega Sableye food, so up against any Mega Sableye team you're NEVER going to get up hazards or spin. Chansey is just extremely niche to very defensive teams, and I can't see Chansey wanting to be put onto a rain team considering it just makes it even more Manaphy bait, especially if you lack Goth.

Also fuck no leave Carracosta unranked. It's almost completely outclassed as a Smasher by Omastar, and physically Kabutops is just far superior. Being outsped by practically every relevant Scarfer REALLY sucks too. I can't see it being useful as anything else, it sounds pretty horrible defensively too.

tl;dr

Toxicroak > Mid Level
Mega Hera > Top Level
Drop Quag, Rosy, Forretress, and Chansey completely
I had brought this up earlier and there are a lot of supporters for Mega Heracross to top rank, which I see now as worthy to being top spot.
Toxicroak a lot of people leave it as top rank so I'll wait a bit longer till this point is spread across a bit more till deciding but I'll leave it as a top rank.
Quag, Chansey and Forretress will stay up for debate a bit longer. I can see forretress leaving and Chansey and Quag staying. Quag probably retaining its position in mid and Chansey to low. Roserade is an odd pick. I has good offensive typing and Weather Ball allowing it to lure in fire types and also has the niche of being an offensive (t)spiker
Carracosta? That is what I get for leaving my chromebook with my brother. *Sigh*

Should I not include descriptions for roles and just have bunch of images under stars. I feel it is VERY (lol this is probably an understatement) hard to figure stuff out and uneccesary to have all that information.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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How does rain benefit Quag at all lol, that's what I want to know. The whole point of Quag is to wall physical sweepers that would normally run through stall, so the only thing rain is doing is increasing the power of its Scalds, which serves no purpose at all, and makes Quag VERY vulnerable to Azu, especially Banded variants, but now with the extra boost even BD Azu has a chance to 2HKO with Waterfall and Waterfall from CB Azu is practically OHKOing it. If you're REALLY hurting for a Water/Ground type, just use Seismitoad or something, which can actually do shit against teams and can pressure offensive builds packing Thundy or Mega Mane, while Quag just comes in a loses momentum praying it gets a Scald burn.

Forretress on its own is an incredibly shitty Pokemon and in all honesty, at least in a Mega Sableye dominated meta, should never see the light of day. Just because rain makes it avoid the OHKO from every Fire-type imaginable, doesn't mean it's going to be better on it. In fact, at least Forre outside of rain can switch into Azu a few times with good prediction, but on rain Azu just clicks Waterfall and Forre is easily 2HKOed.

Chansey is again, self-explanatory, it's only good on fat stall teams. Why would you ever waste your precious stall team slot on Politoed when you could be using something else? Successful stall teams in general lack diversity for a reason, simply because it's very difficult to experiment with a archetype that is designed to defensively check as much of the meta as possible, so veering off what works best just for the sake of creativity is only hurting your success as a team builder. I can never see any good player using Chansey with Politoed unless they're trying to re create some shitty version of BW rain stall, which is pretty non existent even in a meta where rain is permanent.

I just fail to see any solid evidence to back your claims as to why we should even bother discussing defensive rain cores. I've seen like maybe 2 battles where defensive rain has worked well, and that mostly came down to sheer surprise factor and the opponent already being stall weak anyway. Quag, Forre, and Chansey should be removed from the VR completely.
 
What does Mega Absol do for rain? It has always been trash and I don't even see what it does for rain except reflect hazards, but you should be pressuring the foe to instead attack and get rid of Kabu, Kingdra, etc. than them trying to getup rocks. Hell I'd rather use Mega Diancie than Absol if all I wanted was a Magic Bouncer since it can at least Rock Polish to outrun Swift Swimmers.

I don't even know what Uxie can do better than any other Setter. It just has U-Turn and Psychic-typing which isn't even beneficial. It has decent at best defensive capabilities but you're honestly better off using Ferro even if it can Rain Dance you're still better off using Thundy or Klef who can put in real work for the team.

Salamence has no real niche in Rain at all. It's overshadowed by Latios who can Defog AND Rain Dance, while still boasting a Ground immunity and slightly more effiecient movepool for Rain even if it doesn't get Hydro Pump.

Forretress should be killed with fire. So should Chansey and Quag.

Just a word of advice: Don't look for niche mons unless it's a good niche.
 
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Yeah man, this is a research thread, this means that new players will look for advice here.

We dont want to tell new players to use niche shit, do we?
 

MANNAT

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Yeah man, this is a research thread, this means that new players will look for advice here.

We dont want to tell new players to use niche shit, do we?
it's not a research thread, it's supposed to be a resource thread for new players wanting to get into using rain to look at and learn...
 

AM

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What the hell does Mega Absol do for rain? It has always been trash and I don't even see what it does for rain except reflect hazards, but you should be pressuring the foe to instead attack and get rid of Kabu, Kingdra, etc. than them trying to getup rocks. Hell I'd rather use Mega Diancie than Absol if all I wanted was a Magic Bouncer since it can at least Rock Polish to outrun Swift Swimmers.

I don't even know what Uxie can do better than any other Setter. It just has U-Turn and Psychic-typing which isn't even beneficial. It has decent at best defensive capabilities but you're honestly better off using Ferro even if it can Rain Dance you're still better off using Thundy or Klef who can put in real work for the team.

Salamence has no real niche in Rain at all. It's overshadowed by Latios who can Defog AND Rain Dance, while still boasting a Ground immunity and slightly more effiecient movepool for Rain even if it doesn't get Hydro Pump.

Forretress should be killed with fire. So should Chansey and Quag.

Just a word of advice: Don't look for niche mons unless it's a good ass niche.
Sets rocks, rain, memento, u-turn, being one of the few rockers on rain not totally demolished by balance breakers such as mcham.

Just a word of advice, i know you guys are trying to help but these wild assumptions based on stereotypical definitions and stigmas of viability is a little overboard lol. If you are going to bitch take the effort to make your own thread or realize that most new players are just better off asking someone for what works or what doesnt. Most times they are more concerned why thier pikachu doesnt work and dont even know how to utilize this "resource" anyways.
 
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