If they suck then remove any mentions of them, because they're not viable.
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Resource Rain Discussion Thread (W4: Keldeo Competition)
- Thread starter Take Azelfie
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Take Azelfie
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Thanks for clarifying that up, I was going to say some of those things you mentioned.
Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder/thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat/Flamethrower
- Hidden Power Ice
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned mega manectric yet as it fulfills a huge niche for rain teams. Mane can take out most of the mons that threaten common swift swim users such as Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, Celebi somewhat, zardy as it can hit all of them super effectively between fire coverage and thunder. Also, thunder under rain hits super hard with 110 base power and 100 accuracy when rain is up. Fire coverage hits grass types that threaten rain, and it can pivot around with volt switch not unlike mega scizor along with having hp ice as coverage to round out the set.
Using Overheat in the rain?
Looking at the Viability Rankings, they are tons of niche stuff that I wouldn't even think of putting in most OU teams. Forretress, Qwilfish, Durant, Rotom-C , Articuno , Jolteon just to name some examples. Oh, and if you're going to name Gyarados as a rain abuser, you might as well add Starmie who nukes stuff with Analytic Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. It can even make use of Thunder now.
Um the point of it is to kill ferrothorn and celebi when rain isnt necessarily up, and you can still do a ton of damage to ferro while rain is up since it doesnt have reliable recovery, which is the common threat that you are really hitting with it.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Overheat is decent on Mega Manectric because it still gets rid of MScizor and Ferrothorn after some prior damage in the rain. Flamethrower doesn't achieve the 2hko against Ferrothorn while Overheat kills Ferro and Scizor with a bit of prior damage, while also having a chance to 2hko with Overheat from max HP. Also gives you nice utility against a bunch of stuff like Excadrill outside of the rain, which is the same reason to use Fire Blast Moltres and HP Fire Magnezone on rain teams. Btw MPinsir shouldn't go high tier imo but I'll respond to this later.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I'm going to list some reasons why it is still here or why I'll be removing it
- Qwillfish will get removed or put into low tier, Hazards in rain a really good since a lot of offensive pressure it already being applied.
- Forretress gets the same boost as Ferrothorn but has every hazard in the game.
- Durant is going into low tier as it isn't that effective as a Hone Claws sweeper in the higher ladder but still has its niches.
- Rotom-C has pretty good coverage in rain where as Rotom-heat gets a nerf to its Overheat and takes more damage from Rocks and Water attacks + being able to trick opponents
- Articuno was recommended but will be removed due to its speed tier being bad as well as typing which could be replaced for Zapdos.
- Jolteon has Volt Absorb and fast speed as well as hitting Lati@s, Gengar, and M-Metagross hard.
- I didn't list Gyarados because of a rain abuser but it does get that Waterfall boost.
- Starmie will be added to the list when I am going to update it today, that was suppose to happen last night but I got busy.
Cool idea also lol cut the guy some slack on the "unviable" stuff, still a good effort.
Uh i might make a more longer comment later but i dont really agree with pinsir being "high tier" , in reference to an earlier post, and think its a bit overrated on rain as opposed to something like mhera, even though i think its mediocre as well lol. Just my two cents for now.
Uh i might make a more longer comment later but i dont really agree with pinsir being "high tier" , in reference to an earlier post, and think its a bit overrated on rain as opposed to something like mhera, even though i think its mediocre as well lol. Just my two cents for now.
I was actually the guy who suggested Ramules to check this thread, i'll leave my toughts here also.
My two cents in VR:
Remove Articuno: Just horribly outclassed, has a great bulk, but its typing is horrible, losing 50% of health on the switch is not good for any wall, and, unlike Ferro, it cant stop opposing rain sweepers like Kabutops or Kingdra, it also gets murdered by Zard-Y and opposing Thunder abusers like Thundy and Mega Mane.
Move Azumarrill for Mid-Tier: While there are better Rain physical abusers, Azu can also threat opposing Rain teams, is able to switch into opposing Kingdra, who is one of the best rain Wallbreakers, the Belly Drum set is also really favoured, because she will be able to spam +6, Rain boosted Aqua Jets, it still is checked by common rain answers tough, but they cant switch into any attack: Ferrothorn dislikes Superpower, Celebi doesnt appreciate Knock Off, and Breloom is murdered on the switch by Play Rough.
My two cents in VR:
Remove Articuno: Just horribly outclassed, has a great bulk, but its typing is horrible, losing 50% of health on the switch is not good for any wall, and, unlike Ferro, it cant stop opposing rain sweepers like Kabutops or Kingdra, it also gets murdered by Zard-Y and opposing Thunder abusers like Thundy and Mega Mane.
Move Azumarrill for Mid-Tier: While there are better Rain physical abusers, Azu can also threat opposing Rain teams, is able to switch into opposing Kingdra, who is one of the best rain Wallbreakers, the Belly Drum set is also really favoured, because she will be able to spam +6, Rain boosted Aqua Jets, it still is checked by common rain answers tough, but they cant switch into any attack: Ferrothorn dislikes Superpower, Celebi doesnt appreciate Knock Off, and Breloom is murdered on the switch by Play Rough.
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Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I had just added those changes, thanks for recommending this thread to people..
And for everyone here is a little thing about the two things that I feel would be swarmed about. Blissey is in a higher tier than Chansey because in a play style in rain where every turn counts. Gothitelle would force chansey to die then you count even send out the rain setter because that gets killed to. So Blissey have Shed Shell especially with how much cancer Goth Stall is on the ladder.
And Mega Pinsir is probably like A+ but isn't S Ranked tier and just for saying that I know people are going to get on mega for Toxicroak as that is probably the one S tier that may get debunked at the moment.
Only till Sunday I'll be changing these additions as I see them but after Sunday I will have a list in the Pelipper Post that will have the reasoning behind the changes. And if you guys are worried about not getting into the contributions section I'll be updating that when I get more free time at school today.
And for everyone here is a little thing about the two things that I feel would be swarmed about. Blissey is in a higher tier than Chansey because in a play style in rain where every turn counts. Gothitelle would force chansey to die then you count even send out the rain setter because that gets killed to. So Blissey have Shed Shell especially with how much cancer Goth Stall is on the ladder.
And Mega Pinsir is probably like A+ but isn't S Ranked tier and just for saying that I know people are going to get on mega for Toxicroak as that is probably the one S tier that may get debunked at the moment.
Only till Sunday I'll be changing these additions as I see them but after Sunday I will have a list in the Pelipper Post that will have the reasoning behind the changes. And if you guys are worried about not getting into the contributions section I'll be updating that when I get more free time at school today.
I agree with everyone else that Armaldo should just be entirely removed from the list. There literally isn't any reason to ever use this thing over kabutops in rain. They even run the same moves, except Armaldo doesn't get STAB on aqua jet. The only thing he has over Kabu is superpower, and Kabu still has low kick to hit steels.
I don't think Beartic should be removed from the list though. In the OP he's made fun of for being a shitty weavile, but with Rain support that isn't true. A jolly nature lets him outspeed mega bee and mega sceptile, and Ice STAB is still really good. Superpower is more reliable than low kick to break steels (At the cost of lowering attack) and play rough is a really nice option to hit fighting types like Keldeo who think they can switch in. Aqua jet doesn't have STAB, but it's still boosted by rain and having priority is nice. Ice is a terrible defensive typing, but Beartic's bulk is pretty good for an offensive mon, meaning he has an easier time setting up a swords dance.
Beartic's main competition on a rain team is either Kabutops or Mega Swamp, both of which outclass it, but not as bad as Armaldo. He's definitely a low tier pokemon though. So yeah; remove Armaldo and keep Beartic.
I don't think Beartic should be removed from the list though. In the OP he's made fun of for being a shitty weavile, but with Rain support that isn't true. A jolly nature lets him outspeed mega bee and mega sceptile, and Ice STAB is still really good. Superpower is more reliable than low kick to break steels (At the cost of lowering attack) and play rough is a really nice option to hit fighting types like Keldeo who think they can switch in. Aqua jet doesn't have STAB, but it's still boosted by rain and having priority is nice. Ice is a terrible defensive typing, but Beartic's bulk is pretty good for an offensive mon, meaning he has an easier time setting up a swords dance.
Beartic's main competition on a rain team is either Kabutops or Mega Swamp, both of which outclass it, but not as bad as Armaldo. He's definitely a low tier pokemon though. So yeah; remove Armaldo and keep Beartic.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289319922
This is a video of one of my matches it involved vapreon and swanna ill post some more if anyone is interested
This is a video of one of my matches it involved vapreon and swanna ill post some more if anyone is interested
Bro, your opponent was a Total noob, dont post low ladder replays please.
Swanna's typing doesnt help it too much really, Torn-T outclass it almost everyway.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I'll check it tonight.
Good ole Phantom Force Shedinja, disappear on something that can't touch you, and then get smacked from whatever switches in.
Its literally an inferior Klefki without Spikes but with Encore and worse bulk, but a bit better Speed.
People should stop watching
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Dont worry!
Just get a bit higher on the ladder!
So recently I tried pulling off some Rain + Specs Moltres + Tailwind Whimsicott shenanigans which was a build I used in BW2 times, with Sableye + Spintops for hazard removal. I have rather mixed comments on the effective of Hurricane Moltres in the current metagame. As a wallbreaker for Rain, Moltres just seems too slow which drains a ton of offensive momentum from the team, as well as mandating a good portion of the team just to support it through hazard removal. On the other hand though, its Modest Specs Hurricane is hilariously powerful, being ~63% more powerful than LO Tornadus-T, especially under Tailwind support can really wreck an unsuspecting team; Even Tyrannitar falls to 2 Hurricanes after SR and a single round of U-turn damage. Then again, on the other hand, you are using up a slot which you could use for another sweeper, but irregardless it helps rain team immensely with that crazy powerf Hurricane.
My verdict? If you are using Sableye on your team, maybe give Moltres a try, it can be pleasantly surprising.
My verdict? If you are using Sableye on your team, maybe give Moltres a try, it can be pleasantly surprising.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Sorry, just try to get a little higher on the ladder in which both you and the opponent are using a viable team. Also your nomination for Swanna is rejected since it doesn't compete with any of the other Hurricane spammers.
Meowstic is basically a low class Klefki or Sableye but has access to Yawn making it a pokemon that can't be set up on as easilly.
Funny when laddering one of my I used Moltres rain and had Sableye as the secondary setter.
uh, hey. Imo,I think M-meta should be raised to high, as under rain, its bulk against fire is impressive as it doesn't take much at from a Lati@s HP Fire and can remove it with pursuit. Being able to do that, as well as not be dead weight vs. Ferrothorn with Hammer Arm like Latias-m, it is an especially helpful mon. It even has some cool moves in its options that can help it whittle at mons that specific teams could struggle against, like Tank Garchomp. It also has the option of utilizing Grass Knot to beat pesky mons like Slowbro on the switch and water absorbers like Seismitoad and Gastrodon.
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer Arm / Grass Knot / Bullet Punch / Ice Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Pursuit
If your team doesn't need Pursuit, it can be slashed with an option above.
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kabutops has Superpower. I don't see why people don't bring this up more often, it literally KOs Keldeo after a rain boosted Waterfall. its just more of the low kick targets are heavier i suppose, but it needs to be brought up more imo. killing keldeo could be vital for a few teams :p
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer Arm / Grass Knot / Bullet Punch / Ice Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Pursuit
If your team doesn't need Pursuit, it can be slashed with an option above.
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo in Rain: 139-164 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kabutops has Superpower. I don't see why people don't bring this up more often, it literally KOs Keldeo after a rain boosted Waterfall. its just more of the low kick targets are heavier i suppose, but it needs to be brought up more imo. killing keldeo could be vital for a few teams :p
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Ah yes Mega Metagross, probably my second or third favorite mega for rain (Mega Medicham being my favorite and maybe tying with Mega Ampharos) it has a hell of a lot of power but I think high tier is pretty much settled for now but there are a few things I will leave in here for people to discuss.
- Toxicroak to mid tier
- Mega Alakazam to high tier
- Mega Heracross to high tier
Also Superpower Kabutops is fun, it should be used more often.
Here's the comment.
So I made a guide awhile back of just basic rain roles that I'm not going to particularly link cause it's outdated in the sense that some of the stuff usable are pretty niche and or don't work that well in the current meta (like Chesnaught). This leads to my next points. I'll try to go in order of the OP.
Good Cores: Offensive, Defensive, Balanced
Your cores are pretty basic but it seems like you just plopped stuff just to plop stuff in like M-Hera / Bisharp which I guess is ok but their synergy isn't a thing only to rain. I'm really not a fan of the M-Sableye / Toxicroak core from using it in the past :/ (sorry SketchUp) I think it has a ton of problems that its effective in theory yet keels over to the reality of what they're trying to cover. Toxicroak is barely a check to fairies and in order for Toxicroak to beat most fairies in the tier, it needs a free switch in. Free switch ins are extremely rare for Toxicroak outside of ballsy predictions or calculated doubles.
bludz has been using a Poli / Celebi core everytime he brings in rain in matches I have with him and their synergy I think is really nice considering Celebi supplements a TON of stuff on his team through either Baton Passing for momentum purposes or just passing over a boost to something like Torn-T. I guess this might be a balanced core now that I think about it but meh. The other defensive cores not too concerned with I never saw the point of using a rain stall team in ORAS, maybe I'll try it out sometime in the future for shits and giggles.
M-Manectric / Torn-T is fine I've used that a good amount. The Moltres / Rotom-W duo being "odd" is an understatement lol. I think Moltres is actually pointless in rain and is much more effective in sand with a SubRoost dual STAB life orb set. Running a Moltres on rain just makes your team weaker to the likes of Azumarill and Keldeo which is seriously the last thing you need for two things that are already mindless to begin with in some battles.
I've been sort of busy multi-tasking different things, shitposting in Skype, watching Avarice be his weird self in the OU room, and writing long explanations like these so when I have time I can provide some rain sets and what not in that section you're missing.
Rain Setters: Rain Setters, Swift Swimmers, Other Sweepers
I'm not a big fan of the rain setters you're implying here. For example most of the rain setters rely on some sort of defensive utility which leads me to believe Meowstic is a pretty poor choice to the much more superior Uxie and Azelf. I'm not thrilled by using Rotom-W on a rain build simply for the fact you're not really adding on any sort of beneficial role compression or real utility other than what Rotom-W does by itself. It's a difference with stuff like Thundurus because it has the option of running variants to break down normal checks to rain such as M-Venusaue with HP Flying while offsetting offense with Thunder Wave who normally annoy conventional rain builds. I think you need to put emphasis on the rain setter thing in terms of everything outside of Politoed is a luxury, and a pretty large emphasis at that. Most rain builds only need Politoed, secondary setters are actually quite rare considering that the majority of them are either niche or in the case of something like Latis want to be running coverage or other utility to help the team. I've only seen 1 good build use a secondary setter in ORAS and that was doughboys rain build early on in ORAS with M-Swamp, Thundurus, Kingdra, Politoed, Klefki, Breloom. Every other rain build I've seen that is effectively used only does so by using Politoed.
I'd go as far to say that if you're gonna place stuff in the way you're doing by Tiers through Stars Kabutops is most certainly not a 3 Star Swift Swimmer. I'll take the ballsy route and say that Kingdra should be the only 3 star Swift Swimmer on that list considering there's about 3 good switchs in to it tops with Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Blissey. All the other Swift Swimmers on that list have either pretty apparent flaws or wiggle room to play around them more effectively, whether it be through their own implementation of teams through synergy or individual effectiveness. Ludicolo is really like a 1 and Beartic would be like a .5 lol. If I really wanted to troll somebody I would just use specs tyranitar or some nonsense that I usually troll people with effectively.
I think M-Scizor is overrated so no comment I'll take that 3 star position with a grain of salt for the time being. There's so much better to use than M-Bro on rain I don't see the point of actually having it there what so ever. Reuniclus seems like it was just thrown in their for more laughs I don't really quite get its specific trait for rain that it would provide other than naturally checking stuff like M-Venusaur which it already does without rain anyways. SR M-Swampert is a huge liability considering it's always gonna need that 4th move to break certain archetypes.
Rain Type Viability Rankings:
Not liking the idea of this one and some of these are extremely subjective but I guess I'll bite. Some of your stuff also contradicts some of the prior things you mentioned like Garchomp being a Tier 3 Hazard setter (which it is) but not even in the top of the rankings. Toxicroak really isn't a top level rain thing it's more mid. In the future I think a pretty large clean up is in order seeing as some of these are either too much of an opportunity cost or plain bad. The whole "unviable" argument people use I sort of have slowly calmed down on contrary to this forums tendency of screaming bloody murder about that but it's silly to see some of these on there since you would never realistically use them even to mess around (like Meowstic).
Rains pretty easy to build lol so again when free I'll throw together some teams and sets.
Fyi, Topics of the week suck. They always have just from seeing other threads try to dedicate topics when stuff like this it's better to just have a general place for discussion to include replays, teams, sets, relevant points, etc. that's it for me for now might come back later.
So I made a guide awhile back of just basic rain roles that I'm not going to particularly link cause it's outdated in the sense that some of the stuff usable are pretty niche and or don't work that well in the current meta (like Chesnaught). This leads to my next points. I'll try to go in order of the OP.
Good Cores: Offensive, Defensive, Balanced
Your cores are pretty basic but it seems like you just plopped stuff just to plop stuff in like M-Hera / Bisharp which I guess is ok but their synergy isn't a thing only to rain. I'm really not a fan of the M-Sableye / Toxicroak core from using it in the past :/ (sorry SketchUp) I think it has a ton of problems that its effective in theory yet keels over to the reality of what they're trying to cover. Toxicroak is barely a check to fairies and in order for Toxicroak to beat most fairies in the tier, it needs a free switch in. Free switch ins are extremely rare for Toxicroak outside of ballsy predictions or calculated doubles.
bludz has been using a Poli / Celebi core everytime he brings in rain in matches I have with him and their synergy I think is really nice considering Celebi supplements a TON of stuff on his team through either Baton Passing for momentum purposes or just passing over a boost to something like Torn-T. I guess this might be a balanced core now that I think about it but meh. The other defensive cores not too concerned with I never saw the point of using a rain stall team in ORAS, maybe I'll try it out sometime in the future for shits and giggles.
M-Manectric / Torn-T is fine I've used that a good amount. The Moltres / Rotom-W duo being "odd" is an understatement lol. I think Moltres is actually pointless in rain and is much more effective in sand with a SubRoost dual STAB life orb set. Running a Moltres on rain just makes your team weaker to the likes of Azumarill and Keldeo which is seriously the last thing you need for two things that are already mindless to begin with in some battles.
I've been sort of busy multi-tasking different things, shitposting in Skype, watching Avarice be his weird self in the OU room, and writing long explanations like these so when I have time I can provide some rain sets and what not in that section you're missing.
Rain Setters: Rain Setters, Swift Swimmers, Other Sweepers
I'm not a big fan of the rain setters you're implying here. For example most of the rain setters rely on some sort of defensive utility which leads me to believe Meowstic is a pretty poor choice to the much more superior Uxie and Azelf. I'm not thrilled by using Rotom-W on a rain build simply for the fact you're not really adding on any sort of beneficial role compression or real utility other than what Rotom-W does by itself. It's a difference with stuff like Thundurus because it has the option of running variants to break down normal checks to rain such as M-Venusaue with HP Flying while offsetting offense with Thunder Wave who normally annoy conventional rain builds. I think you need to put emphasis on the rain setter thing in terms of everything outside of Politoed is a luxury, and a pretty large emphasis at that. Most rain builds only need Politoed, secondary setters are actually quite rare considering that the majority of them are either niche or in the case of something like Latis want to be running coverage or other utility to help the team. I've only seen 1 good build use a secondary setter in ORAS and that was doughboys rain build early on in ORAS with M-Swamp, Thundurus, Kingdra, Politoed, Klefki, Breloom. Every other rain build I've seen that is effectively used only does so by using Politoed.
I'd go as far to say that if you're gonna place stuff in the way you're doing by Tiers through Stars Kabutops is most certainly not a 3 Star Swift Swimmer. I'll take the ballsy route and say that Kingdra should be the only 3 star Swift Swimmer on that list considering there's about 3 good switchs in to it tops with Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Blissey. All the other Swift Swimmers on that list have either pretty apparent flaws or wiggle room to play around them more effectively, whether it be through their own implementation of teams through synergy or individual effectiveness. Ludicolo is really like a 1 and Beartic would be like a .5 lol. If I really wanted to troll somebody I would just use specs tyranitar or some nonsense that I usually troll people with effectively.
I think M-Scizor is overrated so no comment I'll take that 3 star position with a grain of salt for the time being. There's so much better to use than M-Bro on rain I don't see the point of actually having it there what so ever. Reuniclus seems like it was just thrown in their for more laughs I don't really quite get its specific trait for rain that it would provide other than naturally checking stuff like M-Venusaur which it already does without rain anyways. SR M-Swampert is a huge liability considering it's always gonna need that 4th move to break certain archetypes.
Rain Type Viability Rankings:
Not liking the idea of this one and some of these are extremely subjective but I guess I'll bite. Some of your stuff also contradicts some of the prior things you mentioned like Garchomp being a Tier 3 Hazard setter (which it is) but not even in the top of the rankings. Toxicroak really isn't a top level rain thing it's more mid. In the future I think a pretty large clean up is in order seeing as some of these are either too much of an opportunity cost or plain bad. The whole "unviable" argument people use I sort of have slowly calmed down on contrary to this forums tendency of screaming bloody murder about that but it's silly to see some of these on there since you would never realistically use them even to mess around (like Meowstic).
Rains pretty easy to build lol so again when free I'll throw together some teams and sets.
Fyi, Topics of the week suck. They always have just from seeing other threads try to dedicate topics when stuff like this it's better to just have a general place for discussion to include replays, teams, sets, relevant points, etc. that's it for me for now might come back later.
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