ORAS Teambuilding Frameworks

[KyleCole]

approved by Arcticblast

If you're stuck on where to go next when building a team, or unsure of where to start, you can check out this thread to find out what successful Doubles teams have looked like and what some of these teams have in common. If you want to contribute feel free to post similarities between successful teams that you've spotted! Your post can be a framework for me to add to the OP, or a comment on an existing framework, but this is not a thread for theorymonning or teams that you used on the ladder one time.

General

general checklist

No matter what kind of team you make, there are certain things that your Doubles OU team needs to have in order to function properly and succeed. Here are some very basic points to go over during team building to help you out. Remember that these are "at least this many" tips, nothing wrong with having 3 fire resists when the guideline only calls for 2!

• 2 Kangaskhan switchins OR 1 switchin and 1 check
• 1 Landorus-T switchin
• 2 ground immunities OR 1 ground immunity and 1 resist
• 2 Fire resists (Char Y + Venu check)
• 2 Water resists (Ludicolo + Politoed check)
• 1 rock resist
• 1 fairy resist (preferably resists Psychic as well)
• 1 sleep immunity
• 1 Kyurem B check (not weak to Terravolt Earth Power + Ice Beam), and no more than 1 Pokemon that cannot break Kyurem-B substitutes (2 if you have Pixilate Hyper Voice)
• 1 check for each of these steels (Aegislash/Ferrothorn/Heatran)
• 2 of speed control/priority/scarf
• 2 different forms of Trick Room check (Taunt/Spore/TR user/Strong Dark/Ghost/Fake Out/Substitute user)
• 1 CM Cress check
• 1 of Heat Wave, Rock Slide, Earthquake, Pixilate + Hyper Voice (spread)
• 1 check to Azumarill + Amoonguss​

Mega Metagross

Mega Metagross Framework

Braverius Mega Metagross

Stratos Mega Metagross

kamikaze Mega Metagross

finally Mega Metagross

Slot 1. Mega Metagross
Slot 2. Landorus-T - Bulky pivot, provides Intimidate support as well as a Ground Immunity for Mega Metagross. Not all Landorus-T in this slot are scarfed.
Slot 3. Offensive water to check a wide range of threats, namely fire types and grounds. Keldeo provides a check to the standard Kangaskhan/Landorus-T/Heatran core (among other things) while Azumarill is a great late game cleaner to beat a wider range of threats providing it can get set up. Slot 3 also has a great matchup vs Kyurem-B.
Slot 4. Speed Control & Levitate in all cases but 1. Blaziken provides the check to the popular core I mentioned above that Keldeo covered in the other teams. It also gets around Tailwind / Icy Wind with Speed Boost. This lack of active speed control is somewhat compensated by priority from Azumarill as well as Speed Boost.
Slot 5. Bulky Support & TR check. Sableye and Amoonguss are obvious picks for this role with Taunt/Fake Out and Spore, Ferrothorn is a decent check to CM Cress as well if you can get up Leech Seed before it sets up too much, and all picks picks besides Sableye check Jellicent & Waters. This slot also serves as a Kangaskhan switchin (of varying effectiveness)
Slot 6. Filler. This slot is usually a catch-all Pokemon to cover the already strong 5 mons in the rest of the team. Victini has V-Create to destroy all non-resists and of course Final Gambit, and Rotom-W/Kyurem-B both cover a huge range of mons. Darkrai has Foul Play in conjunction with Swagger users on the first team which also covers a huge range of Pokemon.

Mega Gengar

Mega Gengar Framework

pastelgameboy's Mega Gengar

KyleCole's Mega Gengar

Hashtag's Mega Gengar

finally's Mega Gengar

Slot 1: Mega Gengar. Obviously.
Slot 2: Offensive Water-Type. Mainly for opposing Ground- and Fire-types that Mega Gengar struggles against. Keldeo is a great check to standard Mega Kangaskhan and Landorus-T. Azumarill can beat a wider range of threats if given the chance to set up, and works best late-game. Rotom-W is able to act as both an offensive Water-type and support with Hydro Pump and Will-o-Wisp. Rotom-W is also able to handle opposing offensive Water- and Flying-types with Thunderbolt.
Slot 3: Levitate and Speed Control/Intimidate. Slot 3 is a Ground switch-in for Mega Gengar, as well as a supporter through means of speed control or Intimidate. On Hashtag's and finally's team, the lack of immediate speed control is slightly made up for in the fact that both Landorus-T's are running Choice Scarf, and that both teams have some form of priority. It should be noted that Hashtag does have speed control on his Talonflame in Slot 5.
Slot 4: Trick Room Check. This slot should be for a slow Pokemon that can perform well if the opponent should ever set up Trick Room. Amoonguss is the most common and possibly most effectively fulfills this role with Spore and Rage Powder. Azumarill on the other hand has slow speed and priority, allowing it to also play well in Trick Room.
Slot 5: Fire-type Attacker: For bulky Steel- and Grass-types
Slot 6: Filler. This slot can be anything to patch up remaining weaknesses a team may have. Sylveon was added for more offensive presence and wallbreaking. Scrafty and Raichu were added for additional support via Fake Out and their supporting abilities; Intimidate and Lightning Rod. Kyurem-B was added for more offensive coverage and easy set-up of Substitute if Gengar trapped opponents that resist it.

Mega Charizard Y / Sun

Sun Framework

Stratos Sun

KyleCole/ Mizuhime Sun

Shaian Sun

Mizuhime Sun

Just like the XY sun teambuilding framework, sun gives you a little bit more freedom in where you assign each specific role, as long as you have them. The first 3 slots are fairly obvious on all teams:

1. Charizard Y
2. Venusaur (in the past this was "fast offensive support grass" but with Skymin banned, Venusaur becomes the best option here)
3. Check to Electrics, Heatran, and opposing Charizard Y (the Rhydon team has Trick Room support)

After this the choices of Pokemon start to spread out a bit, role 4 is closest to "Bulky Electric and/or speed control and/or ground immune" with Cresselia serving as an all purpose switch in, and ground immune being made up for in the last slot on Shaians team (Raikou has Thunder Wave and Latios does not have Tailwind). Though less obvious, this slot also serves as a check to Talonflame and Thundurus. The first 3 team choices obviously accomplish this, but the Cresselia actually has Ice beam & Trick Room which stop Thundurus. These two Pokemon are so important to beat because they essentially ignore whatever speed control is being used to boost Charizard (possibly the Pokemon that appreciates Tailwind/TR more than any other).

Also you'll notice that while Mizuhimes team only has 2 Ground immune Pokemon to everyone else's 3, the other 3 teams have Landorus-T as one of them, meaning they want 2 more teammates to Earthquake beside.

The next slot is a Steel type, but again there is more to this choice than just picking your favourite Steel. The teams that used a fighting type Pokemon in the last slot opted for Heatran as the Steel. You can look at this as a decision to compensate for a weakness to Talonflame in the last slot, or the fighting mon alleviating the weakness to Kyurem-B that Heatran adds. Stratos and Shaian opted for Aegislash, Shaian has said that he thinks his Aegislash would perform best with Wide Guard (like the one Stratos uses) but I think a Sub + Wide Guard set would work best. Stratos and mine&Mizu's sun team have a Substitute and Wide Guard user elsewhere. Wide Guard to support (primarily) Charizard Y and Substitute as a strong way to beat Trick Room teams (though Sub in general is just good). Mizuhimes Heatran does not have Sub to beat TR though her team uses Trick Room.

The last slot serves as a 2nd check on all teams to Heatran and fills the gaps left by the previous members:

• Conkeldurr: Wide Guard + Good Thundurus check (Guts + Ice Punch) + fair Landorus check + Kyub check
• Latios: 2nd Tran Heatran check (has HP ground) + Kyub check + Ground Immune
• Terrakion: offensive fast mode + Kyub check

The last team is fundamentally different to the first three because it uses Trick Room. While Terrakion uses Quick Guard and doesn't seem to provide similar roles to the other slot 6 choices, it fills the gaps it needs to. For example, Terrakion beats opposing Charizard Y out of Trick Room while Rhydon beats Charizard Y under Trick Room. The other teams didn't need to take this into account as much when team building because they already have Landorus-T and/or Heatran, and do not have Trick Room.

Finally, interspersed throughout all of the sun teams you'll see Ice Moves & Fighting moves to beat Latios, Hydreigon, and Kyurem-B. Dragons give Sun teams in general enormous difficulty if not prepared for properly thanks to their resistances.

Rain

rain framework

Kamikaze17 rain

Mizuhime rain

Hashtag Smogon rain

KyleCole rain

Rain is an interesting framework to me for a couple of reasons. For one I have spent a lot of time playing and honing my rain team so it's the team build I enjoy the most, but it's also interesting to see that even the best rain teams all have notable weaknesses to certain Pokemon like Kyurem-B or Ferrothorn. I suppose this is unavoidable because rain teams are forced to use Politoed for Drizzle, an otherwise poor Pokemon.

Slot 1: Politoed
Slot 2: Thunder Wave Immune, Thundurus Counter, Talonflame Counter. On the first 3 teams Mega Diancie serves as the primary check to Kyurem-B
Slot 3: Offensive (usually) Support + Speed Control. On 3 of these teams Thundurus is used in an offensive support position while Hashtag has opted for Thunder Wave Ferrothorn as a more defensive option here.
Slot 4&5: Slot 4 is the Swift Swim & Offensive Water type. This spot goes to either Ludicolo or Kingdra; Ludicolo is on the teams I would consider Hyper Offense and Kingdra is on teams that I would consider just Offence. Kingdra is accompanied by Aegislash in both cases here, completing a Dragon/Steel/Fairy core. While Kingdra in the rain is a good answer to Kyurem-B, Ludicolo is terrible in this matchup so it is always paired up with a fighting type. Slot 4 also switches into Kangaskhan on the Offense teams or checks it on the Hyper Offensive teams. Slot 5 has Wide Guard in the first 3 teams and on 2 teams this Pokemon is a Steel type.
Slot 6: Grass Killer. Really simple, on a team with 2 or even 3 water types, grass Pokemon in general can be tough to handle without a dedicated answer. On the last two teams, this slot packs a fire move as well to help out against Ferrothorn (who isn't weak to Flying or Ice) and on Mizuhimes team Tornadus has Focus Blast.

kamikaze17:if i were to make a new rain team i would prob want a fighting type

Dedicated Trick Room

Trick Room Framework

Stratos TR

Checkmater TR

Fangame10 TR

Tricking TR

The Dedicated Trick Room framework is the most flexible framework so far. Because some of these Pokemon fill multiple roles, in some cases they don't all line up together (for example Chandelure doesn't line up with the other Fire attackers AND the 2nd Trick Room setter) therefore this framework is best described in a checklist. I've put the roles in an order that you can follow along with the sprites. Here we go!

• Psychic Trick Room setter immune to Sleep
  • This is more than likely due to the best TR setters being Psychic type, not that Psychic typing is particularly useful
• Trick Room setter that resists/is immune to Normal
• Fake Out + Intimidate support + Sub Heatran / Sub Aegislash check
  • Tricking makes up for the lack of Intimidate by having Will-O-Wisp on Cofagrigus. He also just goes without a supporting move in this slot.
• Second Support: Fake Out or Redirection
• Additional Heatran check
  • the Sylveon is Life Orb with Hidden Power Ground
  • On all other teams this Pokemon is a water type, Checkmater doesn't go without one because he already has Jellicent as his water type Pokemon
  
  
• Fire type attacker, Grass resist, Amoonguss check
  • Because Fangame10 has Chandelure already his fire attacker is not shown in this slot. Mega Ampharos uses Electric Terrain to prevent Amoonguss from Sleeping his Pokemon.

Here are some additional points that these teams all have in common but are not outlined in my general team building checklist

• Fire Type, Water Type, Fairy Type
  • Dark Resist & Steel Resist, looking at you Bisharp
• 1 Offensive and 1 Defensive check to Amoonguss
• 2 Trick Room setters
• Both teams that use Kangaskhan also use Heatran and Reuniclus
• Both teams that use Cresselia also use Amoonguss

Checks for the following should also be taken into additional consideration

1. Talonflame
2. Powerful Spread attackers (Charizard Y, Landorus-T, Pixilate Hyper Voice etc.)
3. Amoonguss (specifically in combination with Azumarill and Subtran)
4. Aegislash
5. Bisharp Keldeo
6. Taunt (strong setters basically)
7. Kangaskhan in general (specifically kang+taunt or kang+spore or kang + toge)
8. Hoopa-U/Bisharp + Fake Out/Redirection/Serene Grace Flinch
9. Bulky Pokemon that can sit through Trick Room (Mega Venusaur, Suicune, Jirachi, Togekiss, Cresselia etc.)

Mega Diancie

Mega Diancie Framework

Arcticblast Mega Diancie

Shaian/kamikaze/Stratos Mega Diancie

Hashtag Mega Diancie

KyleCole Mega Diancie

So the first thing that jumps out immediately is that most Mega Diancie teams use a really simple and obvious formula using 2 popular tri-cores that give the team strong defensive synergy(providing resistances for the other members weaknesses) and offensive coverage (several strong attacks of different type): Fairy/Steel/Dragon and Fire/Water/Grass. The last team doesn't have a water but we'll get to that in a bit. Here are the essential roles that must be performed across the team, however it isn't always required that slot A fulfills roll 1, the roles will shift between members from team to team, but it's important to make sure you have all of your bases covered.
These are the roles that are particularly important or emphasized in team building around Mega Diancie, but if you scroll up to the general team building checklist you will see a list of things that all competitive teams should strive to have.

• Mega Diancie (obviously)
• Fire Type (pretty much required for complementing Diancie offensively and defensively)
• Rain Check
• At least 2 Aegislash checks
• Trick Room check
• checks/counters to popular Pokemon and attacks like Landorus-T, Kangaskhan, and Pixilate Hyper Voice.

Example:
Team 1 uses Aegislash as the teams Steel type and a very good Kangaskhan switchin. Hydreigon is the Dragon type for this team and is a great check to Aegislash. Blaziken as a fire type attacker as well as another check to Aegislash, Kangaskhan, and Landorus-T. Gyarados is the team's water type and serves as a solid rain check and Landorus check. Amoongus is a fairly good rain check and Landorus switchin.

While there is one team in the list that doesn't have a water type, this is pretty typical of teams that use Kyurem-B as their dragon type, it checks and switches into many of the Pokemon that a water type would help with, so the last member of the team will vary.

Mega Gardevoir

Mega Gardevoir

MEGA GARDEVOIR FRAMEWORK
Man In A Dress

Kamikaze and Quality Content's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

Croven and Kamikaze's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

N10sit's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

TGMD's Hyper Offense Mega Gardevoir:

Checkmater's Trick Room Mega Gardevoir:

as a side note this thing ^ has only seen tour success like 2 seasonal ago, but it was the most modern Gardevoir trick room team I could find so :/


1: Mega Gardevoir
Mega Gardevoir is a potent spread sweeper in the metagame. In comparison to Mega Diancie, it has poor matchups against physical attackers but better ones against special attackers, such as bulky waters. On the other hand, it lacks good options for hitting steel types but possess Psychic coverage, hitting Amoonguss. Its middling speed tier and poor physical defense leave it requiring team support to patch up these issues, but when it shines it shines bright.

2: Bulky Speed Control and Talonflame/LandoT Check
Forms of Speed control such as Tailwind, Trick Room, and Thunder Wave benefit Mega Gardevoir's middling speed tier, helping it sweep opponents.

3/4: Steels Checks
Because Gardevoir struggles against steels, the only typing that resists its dual stabs, fire types and ground coverage eliminate steels to pave the way for Gardevoir sweeps. Water types also have good matchups against Steels.

5: Second Check to Fires/Landot
Gardevoir's poor talonflame matchup needs more patching up than just one check. This second check also often functions as speed control.


6: Kang / Diancie Check and Support
Kangaskhan is a huge threat to Gardevoir's poor defensive stats. The team members in this slot also provide support in the form of redirection or intimidate for Gardevoir.


Overall, a general Gardevoir teambuilding checklist includes the following:

• Speed Control (1 of either Suicune or Zapdos)
• 2 Kang Checks/Counters
• 2 Talon Counters
• 2 soft LandoT Checks
• 2 or more Heatran Checks
• 2 or more Aegislash Checks
• Intimidate

Some similarities between compositions:

Every team that has Talonflame has LandoT. It seems the other fires are awkward to use LandoT with as they don't have ground immunities.

The two teams with Jirachi have completely different compositions pokemon-wise compared to the others.

Teams with Thundurus have Suicune.

Besides the Trick Room team, none of the teams have Amoonguss. Perhaps it is because Amoonguss forces the team to be constrained into building against Talonflame too much.

None of the teams have a Keldeo. Also probably makes Talonflame matchup too rough.

All except the first one have both an electric and a water.

All except n10's have a fire.

All have a steel.

The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." this framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it. - Stratos

 

[3RROR404]

Sun Teambuilding Frameworks

Team Preview

Stratos Sun

Shaian Sun

Mizuhime Sun

Finally Sun

3RROR404 Sun

Laga Sun

In Depth Look

Coming soon!

 

[shaian]

3RROR404, If ya' need some reference teams for Sun, I know Stratos and myself had the exact 6 'mons on a Sun team for quite a while:

My sun: Zard / Venu / Lando-T / Latios / Raikou / Aegislash

Stratos sun: Zard / Venu / Lando-T / Kyurem-B / Zapdos / Aegislash

I previously also had Kyurem-B over Latios, and both offensive Thundurus and Zapdos over Raikou.

 

[3RROR404]

3RROR404, If ya' need some reference teams for Sun, I know Stratos and myself had the exact 6 'mons on a Sun team for quite a while:

My sun: Zard / Venu / Lando-T / Latios / Raikou / Aegislash

Stratos sun: Zard / Venu / Lando-T / Kyurem-B / Zapdos / Aegislash

I previously also had Kyurem-B over Latios, and both offensive Thundurus and Zapdos over Raikou.

I also built the same sun team a while back. Zard Y, Lando T, Kyurem Black, and Aegislash work really well together on sun.

Personally, I have more experience with Skymin Keldeo sun. So, if anyone has other thoughts for Zard Venu, I think that sould be great. When I get home later today, I will make the actual write up.

 

[megacyber]

Jee, that must be a long write up, 3RROR404 !

 

[xzern]

+

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Skymin + Keldeo Frameworks

KyleCole's Skydeo Offense:

Electrolyte's Skydeo Offense:

xzern's Skydeo Offense:

finally's Skydeo Offense:

Slot 1: money bird

Slot 2: water horse

Slot 3: The resident Thundurus check / Thunder Wave switch-in. The core's most destructive check is probably Thundurus, so it's important that any team incorporating this core has a slot dedicated to checking it. Thunder Wave also messes up the core, so an immunity to that is nice. Excadrill switches in and outspeeds Thundurus under sand. Kyurem-B can hide behind a sub to prevent getting paralyzed but can't switch-in to Thundurus without risking the paralysis, but its otherwise just there to kill Thundurus. Mega Diancie is immune to Thunder Wave, kos Thundurus, and fits well on HO builds. Rhyperior is cool because it can prevent its allies from getting paralyzed while they're both on the field (lightingrod), but really just forces out Thunudrus anyway.

Slot 4: Fire coverage to kill bulky steels. Talonflame is the most common choice here since it fits the best on HO builds and offers a check to speed control teams. With Charizard, however, you get a lot more power and some more bulk.

Slot 5: Landorus-T check. While Intimidate is not an issue for this core, Landorus-T can mess up skymin pretty badly and Keldeo might not be the best answer a lot of the time. KyleCole's Clefable has Icy Wind to get rid of Landorus-T. Bisharp, while not being a great switch-in, can discourage Landorus-T from switching in, depending on the situation. Landorus-T can't do much to Ferrothorn, making it a great switch-in. finally's kyube is scarfed, meaning its custom tailored to counter lando.

Slot 6: Trick Room check / Talonflame check / bulky wildcard. This slot is a wildcard for the most part, but let me explain: On KyleCole's team, he lacks many reliable Talonflame counters, except for Excadrill under sand. Tyranitar can both kill Talonflame and put offensive pressure on most Trick Room users. Mega Kangaskhan takes a more forward approach and stops Trick Room with Fake Out, while also beating Talonflame 1v1. Aegislash is a great Trick Room check since it beats a lot of Trick Room attackers, but does not check Talonflame. This is not needed in this slot because both mine and finally's team already have a bird check, in the form of Mega Diancie and Rhyperior respectively.

feedback appreciated! i'd like to know what you guys thought of my framework analysis.

 

[Pastelle]

This thread was looking sad so I decided to give Mega Gengar a shot. This is my first time doing this kind of thing so don't be too mean :I, just let me know if anything info/teams need to be changed or added.

Mega Gengar

Teambuilding Frameworks

pastelgameboy's Mega Gengar

KyleCole's Mega Gengar

Hashtag's Mega Gengar

finally's Mega Gengar

Slot 1: Mega Gengar. Obviously.

Slot 2: Offensive Water-Type. Mainly for opposing Ground- and Fire-types that Mega Gengar struggles against. Keldeo is a great check to standard Mega Kangaskhan and Landorus-T. Azumarill can beat a wider range of threats if given the chance to set up, and works best late-game. Rotom-W is able to act as both an offensive Water-type and support with Hydro Pump and Will-o-Wisp. Rotom-W is also able to handle opposing offensive Water- and Flying-types with Thunderbolt.

Slot 3: Levitate and Speed Control/Intimidate. Slot 3 is a Ground switch-in for Mega Gengar, as well as a supporter through means of speed control or Intimidate. On Hashtag's and finally's team, the lack of immediate speed control is slightly made up for in the fact that both Landorus-T's are running Choice Scarf, and that both teams have some form of priority. It should be noted that Hashtag does have speed control on his Talonflame in Slot 5.

Slot 4: Trick Room Check. This slot should be for a slow Pokemon that can perform well if the opponent should ever set up Trick Room. Amoonguss is the most common and possibly most effectively fulfills this role with Spore and Rage Powder. Azumarill on the other hand has slow speed and priority, allowing it to also play well in Trick Room.

Slot 5: Fire-type Attacker: For bulky Steel- and Grass-types

Slot 6: Filler. This slot can be anything to patch up remaining weaknesses a team may have. Sylveon was added for more offensive presence and wallbreaking. Scrafty and Raichu were added for additional support via Fake Out and their supporting abilities; Intimidate and Lightning Rod. Kyurem-B was added for more offensive coverage and easy set-up of Substitute if Gengar trapped opponents that resist it.

 

[Pastelle]

Sun Teambuilding Frameworks

Team Preview

Stratos Sun

Shaian Sun

Mizuhime Sun

Finally Sun

3RROR404 Sun

Laga Sun

In Depth Look

Coming soon!

Ok 3rror hasn't been seen in almost a month and sun is a really important archetype, so KyleCole is it ok if I finish up the In-Depth look so it can be added to the op?

 

[shaian]

Mizuhime's sun team plays a hell of a lot different than either Stratos's sun or my own sun. To be quite honest "Sun" as a single archetype is not really a thing, but rather it has a few different forms it takes on. Stratos's team, and my own, would probably fit more of a Sun-balance, whereas Mizuhimes is a semi-Trick Room build with Sun, using Venusaur in place of a scarf user, and finally's team was a much more offensive Sun-build.

For a balanced Sun, here's a rudimentary explanation for the roles. Just something to note though is that the first 3 slots on each team is the same, afterwards is where the different types of Sun-builds begin to emerge.

Slot 1: Charizard Y

What Charizard brings to the table is that it compliments each of the other 'mons on the team well, and provides immediate offensive pressure on both opponents thus giving its partners more freedom to operate due to the amount of attention it commands. Against a lot of teams having 'Zard out immediately puts your opponent up against the wall, especially when it can outrun both opposing Pokemon because chances are, they can't switch in on it. With Charizard out, it gives its teammate a whole lot more breathing room than normal.

Slot 2: Rock / Electric-type killer and Heatran fucker-upper

Stratos and I both used Scarf-Landorus-T, who handles quite a huge amount of the normal 'Zard checks, such as Terrakion, Diancie, Heatran. On top of that, it brings Intimidate which helps the team on the defensive end. Being an excellent pivot on top of that just makes it an excellent option as a partner because it makes it so much easier to bring in the 'Zard. Mizuhime and finally both used something from the Rhydon family, as they brought Lightningrod as a way to compliment Charizard by nullifying one of its weaknesses. They also served the role of Rock / Electric / Heatran fucker-upper, and helped the teams defensive backbone through their bulk.

Slot 3: Fast Grass-type support

Most of us chose Venusaur because with Sun up it's the fastest Grass-type in the game, and it provides a trick room check due to sleep powder, is another rock type check, helps against rain / bulky waters. finally chose Shaymin-S as it beats rocks and bulky waters as well, has serene grace flinches to try and prevent trick room, but unlike winnersaur, it is also fast outside of sun. Both of them compliment zard by having some method to just temporarily remove an opposing threat from the game; Venusaur has fast sleep, whereas Skymin has fast flinches.

Slot 4: Dragon type killer / Water-resist

He chose Kyub, I chose Latios. Really the important thing is that you hit other dragons, resist water-type moves, and also beat other shit that resists Fire-type moves. I figure stratos kyub because it beats heatran / rotom-formes / annoying defensive teams / rain all in one convenient package, but also throws in a landorus-t check as well. I chose HP Ground latios because it does most of those, works reasonably well vs Rain, but has more initial speed than kyube and is a better check to dragons (unless kyub is already behind a sub ;_;).

Slot 5: Bulky Electric / speed control

He chose Zapdos w/ Tailwind, I chose Raikou w/ T-Wave. What this thing does is provide another check vs rain, but also provides a way to stop faster pokes from ruining your fun by outrunning and ko'ing your team. Not to mention it gives you a switch in vs electric type moves because otherwise electric is kinda a shitty defensive typing. Fun fact: Raikou can't guarantee the OHKO on keldeo w/o a boosting item.

Slot 6: Diancie killer / Secondary Trick Room check / WG support

Also because Aegislash is amazing. I don't actually use WG but I should.

There's some more stuff to it, that's just a quick overview to Sun-balance. My team would probably fit more of a halfway mix between flans and keiths but yeah. Not tryna to snipe you or something pastel, just tryna say that there isn't a single specific sun-framework because sun itself has way more playstyles.

 

[Pastelle]

Mizuhime's sun team plays a hell of a lot different than either Stratos's sun or my own sun. To be quite honest "Sun" as a single archetype is not really a thing, but rather it has a few different forms it takes on. Stratos's team, and my own, would probably fit more of a Sun-balance, whereas Mizuhimes is a semi-Trick Room build with Sun, using Venusaur in place of a scarf user, and finally's team was a much more offensive Sun-build.

For a balanced Sun, here's a rudimentary explanation for the roles. Just something to note though is that the first 3 slots on each team is the same, afterwards is where the different types of Sun-builds begin to emerge.

Slot 1: Charizard Y

What Charizard brings to the table is that it compliments each of the other 'mons on the team well, and provides immediate offensive pressure on both opponents thus giving its partners more freedom to operate due to the amount of attention it commands. Against a lot of teams having 'Zard out immediately puts your opponent up against the wall, especially when it can outrun both opposing Pokemon because chances are, they can't switch in on it. With Charizard out, it gives its teammate a whole lot more breathing room than normal.

Slot 2: Rock / Electric-type killer and Heatran fucker-upper

Stratos and I both used Scarf-Landorus-T, who handles quite a huge amount of the normal 'Zard checks, such as Terrakion, Diancie, Heatran. On top of that, it brings Intimidate which helps the team on the defensive end. Being an excellent pivot on top of that just makes it an excellent option as a partner because it makes it so much easier to bring in the 'Zard. Mizuhime and finally both used something from the Rhydon family, as they brought Lightningrod as a way to compliment Charizard by nullifying one of its weaknesses. They also served the role of Rock / Electric / Heatran fucker-upper, and helped the teams defensive backbone through their bulk.

Slot 3: Fast Grass-type support

Most of us chose Venusaur because with Sun up it's the fastest Grass-type in the game, and it provides a trick room check due to sleep powder, is another rock type check, helps against rain / bulky waters. finally chose Shaymin-S as it beats rocks and bulky waters as well, has serene grace flinches to try and prevent trick room, but unlike winnersaur, it is also fast outside of sun. Both of them compliment zard by having some method to just temporarily remove an opposing threat from the game; Venusaur has fast sleep, whereas Skymin has fast flinches.

Slot 4: Dragon type killer / Water-resist

He chose Kyub, I chose Latios. Really the important thing is that you hit other dragons, resist water-type moves, and also beat other shit that resists Fire-type moves. I figure stratos kyub because it beats heatran / rotom-formes / annoying defensive teams / rain all in one convenient package, but also throws in a landorus-t check as well. I chose HP Ground latios because it does most of those, works reasonably well vs Rain, but has more initial speed than kyube and is a better check to dragons (unless kyub is already behind a sub ;_;).

Slot 5: Bulky Electric / speed control

He chose Zapdos w/ Tailwind, I chose Raikou w/ T-Wave. What this thing does is provide another check vs rain, but also provides a way to stop faster pokes from ruining your fun by outrunning and ko'ing your team. Not to mention it gives you a switch in vs electric type moves because otherwise electric is kinda a shitty defensive typing. Fun fact: Raikou can't guarantee the OHKO on keldeo w/o a boosting item.

Slot 6: Diancie killer / Secondary Trick Room check / WG support

Also because Aegislash is amazing. I don't actually use WG but I should.

There's some more stuff to it, that's just a quick overview to Sun-balance. My team would probably fit more of a halfway mix between flans and keiths but yeah. Not tryna to snipe you or something pastel, just tryna say that there isn't a single specific sun-framework because sun itself has way more playstyles.

omg do not even worry about "sniping me", you did a really good job outlining balanced sun. Maybe we could do a few different frameworks for more complex archetypes like sun and rain, and maybe have frameworks for "Balanced Sun", "Hyper Offensive Sun", and things of that sort? That would make it a little easier to lay out more accurate frameworks, and I think give a new user more ideas when it comes to building. Thoughts anyone?

 

[shaian]

Kyle, your last slot being described as a "gap filler" is accurate to some degree, but a more accurate description would probably be as a secondary Heatran check, since all of those are built to beat 'Tran, as my Latios used Hidden Power Ground instead of Tailwind. Notice how each team actually has 2 slots built to beat Heatran, whereas on a surface glance mine only has 1, the gap you were looking for on my team was the 2nd Tran killer. Speed Control is a part of the framework, true, but I handled that with T-Wave on Raikou.

 

[Bughouse]

one of the teambuilds that I think people very frequently do wrong is HO with Deo-A. Also it's criminally underused. If you've got a good Deo-A HO team, plz message it to me and I'll try to put together that framework. There's already Laga's team (with Char-Y) in the OP, but I'm curious about others.

 

[KyleCole]

one of the teambuilds that I think people very frequently do wrong is HO with Deo-A. Also it's criminally underused. If you've got a good Deo-A HO team, plz message it to me and I'll try to put together that framework. There's already Laga's team (with Char-Y) in the OP, but I'm curious about others.

Id rather not include XY teams if at all possible, the Deo Char team I think you're talking about gets 6-0d by Mega Diancie so it isn't a good candidate.

 

[Pastelle]

I'm working on a full tr framework this weekend
edit: After much anticipation, here it is

Full Trick Room

Stratos' Full TR

checkmater75's Full TR

Tricking's Full TR

Fangame10's Full Trick Room

Trick Room is an unusual case when it comes to teambuilding. Typically most archetypes have distinct roles that are best answered by using a certain type or using a specific Pokemon. In Trick Room, however, the Pokemon that fit these roles are far more open to interpretation. This leaves a lot more freedom when it comes to synergy and Pokemon selection. But nonetheless, there are still roles that must be filled to make any full Trick Room team successful.

Slot 1: Every Full Trick Room team requires two Trick Room setters. The first setter should be defensive, or bulky. The most common filler of this role is Cresselia. It's easily the bulkiest setter in the metagame, and a staple on most Trick Room teams. Jellicent, while not as bulky as Cresselia, is still a fairly bulky Pokemon that can set up Trick Room, and provide some better offensive coverage than Cresselia can.

Slot 2: The second slot should be a more offensive Trick Room setter. This is a Pokemon that has access to Trick Room while still having a strong offensive presence, thus applying pressure to the opponents. Non-Mega Diancie is a great example of this. It threatens a vast amount of Pokemon with its STAB moves, especially if it's Weakness Policy activates, while being able to set up Trick Room. Chandalure is also a common filler of this role, with awesome offensive typing and powerful Special Attack. Reuniclus is often overlooked, but it too has great Special Attack paired with a wide variety of coverage options, making it a very versatile setter.

Slot 3: This slot goes to a Pokemon with Fake Out to help ensure Trick Room is set up successfully. It's job is to Fake Out any threats to the setter while the setter does its job. Scrafty is a good filler of this role. Not only does it get Fake Out, it also has Intimidate, which is a great supporting ability. It also has some great synergy with Ghost- and Psychic-types, which are typically the types that setters possess. On Tricking's team, Mega Kangaskhan was used instead as its more powerful than Scrafty, and possess a priority attack in the form of Sucker Punch. This means that it can still see success in Trick Room despite having higher Speed than Scrafty.

Slot 4: This slot should be a Trick Room attacker. This a Pokemon with low Speed and powerful offensive presence. More often than not, this is also the slot where one's Mega is, like on Stratos' and Fangame's teams. However, since the other two teams are using Mega Kangaskhan, Azumarill and Sylveon serve the job of main damage-dealer. This role's job is to come in when Trick Room is up, score a few KO's, and leave to make room for the setter again. More often then not they work better late-game on softened-up opponents.

Slot 5 & 6: This is where full Trick Room gets a little fuzzy when it comes to specific roles. For the most part, slot 5 and 6 can either be another attacker or supporter, depending on what is needed for each specific team. Most of the Pokemon in Slot 5 are additional Trick Room attackers. Heatran is easily able to set up a Substitute and deal heavy damage under Trick Room, while Rotom-W is able to provide some needed coverage and support with Will-o-Wisp. And lastly, slot 6 is mostly additional supporters. Amoonguss is fantastic in Trick Room. Since there's no Sleep Clause in Doubles, its able to outspeed most of the metagame and Spore them. This is also precisely the reason why every Trick Room teams needs a few sleep counters, as Amoonguss is one of the most common Trick Room counters on non-Trick Room teams. Rhyperior kind of acts as a supporter and an attacker, redirecting Electric-type attacks with Lightning Rod and dealing heavy damage. Mega Kangaskhan serves as an additional support similar to Slot 3. It's also able to serve as a "fast mode" Pokemon to deal heavy damage in the off chance Trick Room doesn't get set up.

 

[KyleCole]

I'm working on a full tr framework this weekend
edit: After much anticipation, here it is

Full Trick Room

Stratos' Full TR

checkmater75's Full TR

Tricking's Full TR

Fangame10's Full Trick Room

Trick Room is an unusual case when it comes to teambuilding. Typically most archetypes have distinct roles that are best answered by using a certain type or using a specific Pokemon. In Trick Room, however, the Pokemon that fit these roles are far more open to interpretation. This leaves a lot more freedom when it comes to synergy and Pokemon selection. But nonetheless, there are still roles that must be filled to make any full Trick Room team successful.

Slot 1: Every Full Trick Room team requires two Trick Room setters. The first setter should be defensive, or bulky. The most common filler of this role is Cresselia. It's easily the bulkiest setter in the metagame, and a staple on most Trick Room teams. Jellicent, while not as bulky as Cresselia, is still a fairly bulky Pokemon that can set up Trick Room, and provide some better offensive coverage than Cresselia can.

Slot 2: The second slot should be a more offensive Trick Room setter. This is a Pokemon that has access to Trick Room while still having a strong offensive presence, thus applying pressure to the opponents. Non-Mega Diancie is a great example of this. It threatens a vast amount of Pokemon with its STAB moves, especially if it's Weakness Policy activates, while being able to set up Trick Room. Chandalure is also a common filler of this role, with awesome offensive typing and powerful Special Attack. Reuniclus is often overlooked, but it too has great Special Attack paired with a wide variety of coverage options, making it a very versatile setter.

Slot 3: This slot goes to a Pokemon with Fake Out to help ensure Trick Room is set up successfully. It's job is to Fake Out any threats to the setter while the setter does its job. Scrafty is a good filler of this role. Not only does it get Fake Out, it also has Intimidate, which is a great supporting ability. It also has some great synergy with Ghost- and Psychic-types, which are typically the types that setters possess. On Tricking's team, Mega Kangaskhan was used instead as its more powerful than Scrafty, and possess a priority attack in the form of Sucker Punch. This means that it can still see success in Trick Room despite having higher Speed than Scrafty.

Slot 4: This slot should be a Trick Room attacker. This a Pokemon with low Speed and powerful offensive presence. More often than not, this is also the slot where one's Mega is, like on Stratos' and Fangame's teams. However, since the other two teams are using Mega Kangaskhan, Azumarill and Sylveon serve the job of main damage-dealer. This role's job is to come in when Trick Room is up, score a few KO's, and leave to make room for the setter again. More often then not they work better late-game on softened-up opponents.

Slot 5 & 6: This is where full Trick Room gets a little fuzzy when it comes to specific roles. For the most part, slot 5 and 6 can either be another attacker or supporter, depending on what is needed for each specific team. Most of the Pokemon in Slot 5 are additional Trick Room attackers. Heatran is easily able to set up a Substitute and deal heavy damage under Trick Room, while Rotom-W is able to provide some needed coverage and support with Will-o-Wisp. And lastly, slot 6 is mostly additional supporters. Amoonguss is fantastic in Trick Room. Since there's no Sleep Clause in Doubles, its able to outspeed most of the metagame and Spore them. This is also precisely the reason why every Trick Room teams needs a few sleep counters, as Amoonguss is one of the most common Trick Room counters on non-Trick Room teams. Rhyperior kind of acts as a supporter and an attacker, redirecting Electric-type attacks with Lightning Rod and dealing heavy damage. Mega Kangaskhan serves as an additional support similar to Slot 3. It's also able to serve as a "fast mode" Pokemon to deal heavy damage in the off chance Trick Room doesn't get set up.

Updated the OP with a Dedicated TR framework. Our roles/conclusions were a littler different Pastel so lemme know what you think, thanks for the help!

 

[Pastelle]

Updated the OP with a Dedicated TR framework. Our roles/conclusions were a littler different Pastel so lemme know what you think, thanks for the help!

Looks good to me, Trick Room is not an easy framework to write for...

 

[Pastelle]

bringing this thread back to life with a Mega Diancie framework this weekend

s t a y t u n e d

 

[Checkmater]

if pastelle is dropping it I might pick it up idk

also diancie framework:

fire water grass diancie dragon steel

ez framework

 

[Pastelle]

if pastelle is dropping it I might pick it up idk

also diancie framework:

fire water grass diancie dragon steel

ez framework

I'm busy till next week so if you want it you can take it I suppose.

 

[Checkmater]

Here are some teams, going to keep adding as I get them, probably will go to like 6 or 7 I think

some teams

Stratos' Diancie+Volcarona+Aegis

Diancie Ferrothorn Hyper Offense (idk whose name to put this under, shay seems to use it the most idk)

Laga's Diancie+Landorus-I

Arcticblast's Infernape + Diancie

Kylecole's Diancie/kyube/aegis with virizion

Hashtag's Diancie Rain

Talkingtree's Balanced Diancie-Mega Heatran

slot 1: Diancie
In the current meta, Diancie-Mega is a huge threat. Especially with Skymin gone, Diancie has good matchups against the numerous dragons, flying types, and three musketeers along with a great speed tier. However it tends to struggle against steels such as Aegislash and Landorus-Therian, while also having difficulties with bulky Grass types.

slot 2: Fire-type
Fire-types have great synergy with Diancie, by having good matchups vs bulky steels such as Aegislash and Ferrothorn, filling the role of Amoonguss-killer while also checking sun to a varying degree. While most teams use Talonflame, other options such as Blaziken and Volcarona function well too.

slot 3: Rain Check/Water Resist
Grass types or Dragons that serve as good rain-checks and cover weaknesses to rain.

slot 4: Secondary Aegis Check
Aegislash is a big threat to Diancie-Mega compositions, meriting a second Aegislash check alongside with the Fire type already included

slot 5: Landorus-Therian Check/Counter
Since Landorus-Therian can both lower Diancie-Mega's Attack and threaten it with Earthquake, a Landorus-Therian check helps alleviate this issue. On these teams, this ranges from Amoonguss to Kyurem-Black or Rain in general to deal with Landorus-Therian. This slot also functions as a second rain check in all the teams.

slot 6: Kangaskhan Check, Fairy Resist, Trick Room Check
Used to round out Dragon (typically one of the previous slots) Fairy (Diancie) Steel, Bulky Steel types help against Kangaskhan-Mega while also providing a Fairy resist and Grass resist. Talkingtree's team uses Rocky Helmet Amoonguss which also serves this role very well, since Heatran serves as a bulky steel as well as a Fire type. Jirachi, Aegis, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss each serve to greatly hamper Trick Room's effectiveness and serve as good Trick Room checks.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Hide

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 176 Atk / 80 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Encore

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Protect

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Dragon Claw

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

I've actually had this team for a long time but when I saw your framework checkmater75 it seemed to fit perfectly.

My offensive fire is infernape. Ferro (and to an extent kyub) is my rain check. I'm using life Orb darkrai to check aegislash (but I think I put it in because it has decent synergy with diancie). Scarf kyub out speeds lando t so works pretty well. Life Orb thundurus checks fighting types and out speeds + ohkos keldeo

 

[Checkmater]

k the frameworks' basically finished, added talkingtree's diancie team for a more defensive team to throw into the mix. Maybe the framework could do with another diancie-rain team, but I couldn't really find any bcuz kamikaze has said he doesn't like his team being in the rain framework, mizu's isn't exactly standard ;w; and I already put hashtag's in.

to add, when this gets put in could you make better names for the teams? I kinda suck at identifying "archetypes" or w/e and I also suck at the terminology so yeah

 

[Checkmater]

MEGA GARDEVOIR FRAMEWORK

Man In A Dress

Kamikaze and Quality Content's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

Croven and Kamikaze's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

N10sit's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

TGMD's Hyper Offense Mega Gardevoir:

Checkmater's Trick Room Mega Gardevoir:

as a side note this thing ^ has only seen tour success like 2 seasonal ago, but it was the most modern Gardevoir trick room team I could find so :/

1: Mega Gardevoir
Mega Gardevoir is a potent spread sweeper in the metagame. In comparison to Mega Diancie, it has poor matchups against physical attackers but better ones against special attackers, such as bulky waters. On the other hand, it lacks good options for hitting steel types but possess Psychic coverage, hitting Amoonguss. Its middling speed tier and poor physical defense leave it requiring team support to patch up these issues, but when it shines it shines bright.

2: Bulky Speed Control and Talonflame/LandoT Check
Forms of Speed control such as Tailwind, Trick Room, and Thunder Wave benefit Mega Gardevoir's middling speed tier, helping it sweep opponents.

3/4: Steels Checks
Because Gardevoir struggles against steels, the only typing that resists its dual stabs, fire types and ground coverage eliminate steels to pave the way for Gardevoir sweeps. Water types also have good matchups against Steels.

5: Second Check to Fires/Landot
Gardevoir's poor talonflame matchup needs more patching up than just one check. This second check also often functions as speed control.


6: Kang / Diancie Check and Support
Kangaskhan is a huge threat to Gardevoir's poor defensive stats. The team members in this slot also provide support in the form of redirection or intimidate for Gardevoir.


Overall, a general Gardevoir teambuilding checklist includes the following:

• Speed Control (1 of either Suicune or Zapdos)
• 2 Kang Checks/Counters
• 2 Talon Counters
• 2 soft LandoT Checks
• 2 or more Heatran Checks
• 2 or more Aegislash Checks
• Intimidate

Some similarities between compositions:

Every team that has Talonflame has LandoT. It seems the other fires are awkward to use LandoT with as they don't have ground immunities.

The two teams with Jirachi have completely different compositions pokemon-wise compared to the others.

Teams with Thundurus have Suicune.

Besides the Trick Room team, none of the teams have Amoonguss. Perhaps it is because Amoonguss forces the team to be constrained into building against Talonflame too much.

None of the teams have a Keldeo. Also probably makes Talonflame matchup too rough.

All except the first one have both an electric and a water.

All except n10's have a fire.

All have a steel.

 

[n10siT]

cune helps beat non WP aegi and heatran and lando i ohkos literally every viable steel type (including ferro with FB) and u just make removing steels/other garde checks a top priority

hope i helped

 

[Bughouse]

MEGA GARDEVOIR FRAMEWORK

Man In A Dress

Kamikaze and Quality Content's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

Croven and Kamikaze's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

N10sit's Tailwind Offense Mega Gardevoir:

TGMD's Hyper Offense Mega Gardevoir:

Checkmater's Trick Room Mega Gardevoir:

as a side note this thing ^ has only seen tour success like 2 seasonal ago, but it was the most modern Gardevoir trick room team I could find so :/

1: Mega Gardevoir
Mega Gardevoir is a potent spread sweeper in the metagame. In comparison to Mega Diancie, it has poor matchups against physical attackers but better ones against special attackers, such as bulky waters. On the other hand, it lacks good options for hitting steel types but possess Psychic coverage, hitting Amoonguss. Its middling speed tier and poor physical defense leave it requiring team support to patch up these issues, but when it shines it shines bright.

2: Bulky Speed Control and Talonflame/LandoT Check
Forms of Speed control such as Tailwind, Trick Room, and Thunder Wave benefit Mega Gardevoir's middling speed tier, helping it sweep opponents.

3/4: Steels Checks
Because Gardevoir struggles against steels, the only typing that resists its dual stabs, fire types and ground coverage eliminate steels to pave the way for Gardevoir sweeps. Water types also have good matchups against Steels.

5: Second Check to Fires/Landot
Gardevoir's poor talonflame matchup needs more patching up than just one check. This second check also often functions as speed control.


6: Kang / Diancie Check and Support
Kangaskhan is a huge threat to Gardevoir's poor defensive stats. The team members in this slot also provide support in the form of redirection or intimidate for Gardevoir.


Overall, a general Gardevoir teambuilding checklist includes the following:

• Speed Control (1 of either Suicune or Zapdos)
• 2 Kang Checks/Counters
• 2 Talon Counters
• 2 soft LandoT Checks
• 2 or more Heatran Checks
• 2 or more Aegislash Checks
• Intimidate

Some similarities between compositions:

Every team that has Talonflame has LandoT. It seems the other fires are awkward to use LandoT with as they don't have ground immunities.

The two teams with Jirachi have completely different compositions pokemon-wise compared to the others.

Teams with Thundurus have Suicune.

Besides the Trick Room team, none of the teams have Amoonguss. Perhaps it is because Amoonguss forces the team to be constrained into building against Talonflame too much.

None of the teams have a Keldeo. Also probably makes Talonflame matchup too rough.

All except the first one have both an electric and a water.

All except n10's have a fire.

All have a steel.

Adding in my old Mandibuzz team to show that even less serious teams can - and should - follow successful frameworks:

• Speed Control (1 of either Suicune or Zapdos) - Suicune (and also TW Mandibuzz)
• 2 Kang Checks/Counters - Hariyama and Rhyperior
• 2 Talon Counters - Rotom-H and Rhyperior (and Suicune)
• 2 soft LandoT Checks - Suicune, Mandibuzz, and Hariyama all check. Frankly everything on team checks, depending on locked move.
• 2 or more Heatran Checks - Rotom-H, Suicune, and Mandibuzz
• 2 or more Aegislash Checks - Rotom-H, Mandibuzz, Rhyperior
• Intimidate - no Intimidate bc Hitmontop was too much of a momentum suck. Could easily replace Rhyperior with Lando-T tho... I'm just a #hipster with my fast Rhyp faking out opps who think it's semi-TR.