Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)

[bludz]

I'll make sure to italicize that stuff, thanks. I don't know about a defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss that seems like a very team specific thing so Nasty Plot refers specifically to the stallbreaker set and I may rename it to that.

Yeah defensive M-Amph is RestTalk, offensive is Agility

 

[Eckleburg]

Thank you!

To Togekiss: There is a MaxHP/MaxDefense Defensive Set in the SmogonDex with Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Roost and Air Slash, just so you know what I meant.

Have a nice day!
And by the way: Good job keeping this thread and the viability thread up to date. I really appreciate it.

EDIT:
But you really should update the threadtitle, too! In both threads. I think you just forgot it.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Defensive Gastrodon was B- rank. It rised to B rank because of its Curse set:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Curse

 

[EraiMHFU]

So, im not going to talk too much about it because I still didint use it myself, but, TanKFable set isn't mentioned, I think A- Rank would be fine since it gets nice coverage and Soft-Boiled, I don't wanna base my arguements in theorymon, that's why I don't explain any further, but I feel it should appear on the list.

 

[urban]

Now that we know the results of the M-Sableye/Shadow Tag suspect, I wanted to make some nominations to get conversation going and to get this thread updated a bit.

Choice Scarf Excadrill: B+ -> A-
I used this for my suspect team, and though M-Eye will be staying in the tier, I think this set still warrants a raise. It has some decent advantages over other scarf ground types. First, its typing lets it switch into electrics much more easily, so it can stop volt switch more effectively. Second, Mold Breaker EQ is a crazy advantage cause you can fire off powerful EQs with little drawback - especially because there aren't many flying types that like switching into IH or Rock Slide. Finally, the fast rapid spin is quite useful for offensive teams, even if it can't spin against stall.

Calm Mind Keldeo: A+ -> A
I think the fact that this set has seen a rather large drop in usage is indicative of its deserving a drop in rank as well. It just finds itself as a jack of all trades, master of none. Specs is way more threatening as it has very few switchins with the right coverage move. Scarf has speed to pressure offense. RestTalk has longevity with the option of even running LO for a boost in power. CM Keld struggles because most teams will pack something that can switch into its STAB, so it has a hard time setting up most of the time and would rather just fire off attacks.

Landorus-Therian: Offensive SR < Defensive SR
The defensive SR sets just offer a lot more in terms of splashability and utility. The defensive investment is also hugely important for checking threats like Talonflame and Char-X. Finally, the offensive set can have some issues as its rather slow for an offensive mon. TBH, I would rather just run SD on the defensive set.

SpDef Hippowdon: A- -> B+
In terms of efficiency, this set just doesn't cut it. The mixed spread is just a lot better at handling threats in this meta, and the spdef set doesn't really change what beats the fat hippo.

Choice Band Tyranitar: A- -> A
I've used this some recently, and I really liked it. It has an incredible amount of power and can just destroy slower teams. It also still has really nice bulk with sand and its typing is quite useful in checking los birds.


Okay, so that's that. Now, on to some sets that I think should be removed. Not really gonna explain these, but in general they're either inefficient, non-influential, or just plain bad.
Remove: AV Hoopa-U, AV Kyurem-B, Dual Screens Klefki, Scarf Diggersby, Gothitelle n_n, Scarf Togekiss, Specs Dragalge

 

[AM]

To add on to urbandears post for discussion purposes or stuff to consider.

Scarf Rachi above SpDef Jirachi
Scarf Kyurem-B: B+ -> A-
Sash Kazam: B -> B+
Band Hoopa as a set being above Life Orb
AV Azumarill: A- -> A
Calm Mind Manaphy: A- -> A
Remove SD Zard-X?
Swords Dance Weavile as a set for A+
Utility M-Latias above Calm Mind Latias
Offensive TR Reuniclus: C+ -> B-
AV Raikou: A- -> B+

I can provide some reasoning if necessary or elaboration but just thought I would throw those out there as some was discussed and others are stuff to think about.

 

[Martin]

Agree with everything proposed aside from scarfdrill, but im not gonna elaborate cause its twenty to one and i wanna sleep

Also, I think that the helmet+rough skin chomp set should prolly be renamed to tank because it is kind of misleading considering that offensive helmet chomp is also a thing and it doesn't really fall under the same role that fatchomp does.

 

[Vert]

scarf rachi is pretty legit, you can just throw it on a poorly built offense and call it a day because of its typing, stab, speed, coverage, u-turn, flinch hax, and healing wish. sdef is underwhelming in this fast metagame making the max hp / max spe utility rachi is more viable imo cuz it is a more consistent check to kyurem-b and isn't on a timer with wish being its only recovery.

kyurem-b is seeing more scarf usage because it is a physical scarf that doesn't get walled by grounds or mega venusaur, huge plus. also offense is best play style like i said, even better now that stall is no longer a polar opposite to the playstyle with gothitelle being banned

sash zam is still strong as hell, love that sash not affected by hazards lets you get safe two time focus blast on tyranitar and safe fire on sharp. twave is clutch. little drop in power. a- to be honest on par with life orb

people are misled by using bad av sets, pup is better for lum otherwise run iron tail or facade. i think knock off is trash if you don't have zone same with superpower don't use these. av is pretty solid can be tanky to remove big threats like thundurus or just be a savage in general

haven't run cm manaphy that much but kind of like suicune except you lose bulk to get rain dance. because you are giving up tail glow and it faces competition with rd u-turn, i am abstaining on this moving up

sd zard is bad lol sd weavile is godly av raikou is just more free wins on the ladder

 

[p2]

tg rd mana for s!!! it should have been there like 3+ months ago but whatever

put lo torn-t above av torn, should be s tbh but it should happen soon enough

bd chesnaught is definitely not d rank lol, move it to like c or something. its niche as fuck but d is underselling it a lot

id remove tailwind from zard x, sd is a such a massive threat to slower teams that its worth keeping

i agree with all of ams discussion points, though cm mana is a bit iffy

 

[TheyCallMeAdolf]

Should sap sipper azumarill be ranked? I'm aware that it isn't great or anything, but it is a legitimate set that has been seeing some usage recently (I think high impulse used it against cosine in olt, but idr), and acts as a pretty solid check to zard/ferro/serp/lati/keld. I'm not sure where/if it should be ranked here, but it's definitely worth considering.

And Av raikou should definitely drop to B+ IMO

 

[MikeDawg]

Idt swords dance helps charx against slower teams that much anyway. Any time I was playing vs stall, sd wouldn't have really helped anyway because quag was the switchin. I ended up just swapping it out for ddance because of that. Against mixed teams, the difference is even more meh since you hit the same issue, but now you are also outsped by lots of things. :( being strong against slow teams is not at all a niche, and zard does that fine without sd and if doesn't need to compromise its effectiveness against the rest of the meta.

I think tg rd should stay a subrank behind 3 attacks in general. Now more than ever, that third coverage move is so valuable, even against fully defensive teams, which are the larger target of rd. In the context of stall: Scald+eball is dealt with by amoong/venu/altaria/ferro/celebi. Scald+ibeam falls to slowbro, rotom, venu. Scald + psychic falls to the above minus the grass/poisons, etc.

Meanwhile, one set of tg/scald/energy ball/ice beam covers almost all of these. Mix and match with psychic, HP fire, and chansey becomes the only reliable option before the set is revealed.

Tg + rd beats chansey, yeh, but it makes it much easier to check with the other 5 mons that are also pretty dedicated to specifically stopping a manaphy sweep. It wasn't until plying stall that I realized how universally scary 3 attacks is. Quag/alt/amoongus/mandibuzz/slowbro/rachi can comfortably handle tg rd, but if you combine energy ball and ice beam, it is a 6-0 (cept yache amoongus hehe because manaphy is a shit).

Idt that the ability to beat some stupidly passive mons that are kinda growing outdated put rd on the level of the universally terrifying 3 attacks set (which lets u best lots of stall teams that rd doesn't). Chansey isn't that hard to pressure anyway for an offensive team.

 

[bludz]

Altaria DDD -> above offensive
Can actually sustain hits and Zone trapping steels sorta necessary for offensive DD to sweep a lot of the time anyway

Azumarill AV A- -> A
Fuck rain, switching moves on this beast is great too

Diancie Rock Polish A+ -> A

Excadrill Choice Scarf B+ -> A-
Underrated cleaner

Hoopa-Unbound Choice Band Unranked -> A+
Literally jesus

Hoopa-Unbound AV A -> A-

Keldeo Scarf A -> A+
Cleans shit

Keldeo Calm Mind A+ -> A-
Keldeo prefers immediate power in this metagame

Keldeo Life Orb (renamed) B+ -> A-

Lando-T -> Defensive SR above Offensive
Checks a ton of shit

Mega Gyarados -> conglomerate sets

Alakazam Focus Sash B -> B+
Maybe shouldn't have dropped so low to begin with

Jirachi -> Scarf above Spdef
Offense is king

Raikou AV A- -> B+
If you're not using CM Raikou maybe you should be using something else

Dragonite DD B -> B+
More of a threat than Band

Dragonite Choice Band B+ -> B

Gastrodon Curse Unranked -> top set (B)
Overdue

Kyurem-Black Choice Scarf B+ -> A-
Cleans shit

Hippowdon Specially Defensive A- -> B+

Removed entirely: AV Kyurem-Black, Screens Klefki and Scarf Togekiss

Sorry guys it's been long overdue but here's a major update. Some basic explanation on each above for the ones I thought relevant enough to address. Updating the OP now

Oh for discussion I guess maybe Band Hoopa over LO and some things you guys think might need to go unranked

 

[Karxrida]

Giving this a bump so we can talk about adding Choice Specs Latios. People having been discussing its merits in the VR thread, and I think it should be ranked since it sounds decently viable with murdering Clefable and all. However, I have no idea where I would place it since I haven't used it.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

Specs latios only really beats standard clef and you should never rely on a dragon to beat a fairy. It still loses to bold Variants, Still cant OHKO tank Fable and like most above the 100 benchmark does not like T-wave so even then it could still lose to the common set. I mean if you really hate standard clef and have no other check specs latios can fit the bill but otherwise I would rather just go trick scarf and permanently cripple it or Calm mind to not only tank moonblast and win a Calm mind war but actually stack with LO and really threaten stuff. Other issue's to specs latios include exploitablity by darks, fairies and set up mons depending on what you click and unlike scarf which lures and nails stuff like lopunny, As soon as someone see specs anything faster wins so you either lose latios or a swtich in takes huge dmg.

I do agree tho it should be ranked as it hits hard and can be used to nail stuff like Mega slowbro without setting up but it is Niche. I would say D or C- tops

 

[imsosorrylol]

Specs latios only really beats standard clef and you should never rely on a dragon to beat a fairy. It still loses to bold Variants, Still cant OHKO tank Fable and like most above the 100 benchmark does not like T-wave so even then it could still lose to the common set. I mean if you really hate standard clef and have no other check specs latios can fit the bill but otherwise I would rather just go trick scarf and permanently cripple it or Calm mind to not only tank moonblast and win a Calm mind war but actually stack with LO and really threaten stuff. Other issue's to specs latios include exploitablity by darks, fairies and set up mons depending on what you click and unlike scarf which lures and nails stuff like lopunny, As soon as someone see specs anything faster wins so you either lose latios or a swtich in takes huge dmg.

I do agree tho it should be ranked as it hits hard and can be used to nail stuff like Mega slowbro without setting up but it is Niche. I would say D or C- tops

I mean your comments on specs lati kinda put it down, but the most common spread on clef is calm and no one really runs tank fable. Balance just has no switchins for specs lati right now, since it beats clef and beats ferro with hp fire. Only switchin on balance is tran, which get worn down very easily. Should be ranked at least b-.

 

[Martin]

That is way too low in compatisonto its VR ranking to be worth bothering with. Imo the lowest any Latios set should go before becoming unranked is B+, and there is no way in hell that Specs Lati is a B+ threat if only due to how easy it is to punish with stuff like Pursuit users, fairies, darks etc. and with how punishable a non-STAB 60 BP move is to be locked into on a mispredict. Sure, it is guaranteed a kill or severe dent each time it comes in, but the price it pays for that is big in that, say, a -2/4 or psychic-locked Latios is complete Pursuit bait - not to mention that stuff like Scarftar is rising in usage.
As an aside, Heatran doesn't actually beat Specs Lati as Surf is the tied best fourth move on it with Trick.

Seeing how I'm talking anout choice-locked Lati, I think that Scarf is probably elegible for a drop at this point, cause honestly Scarf isn't all that good at all, being very easy to punish once the surprise factor is gone and being hurt heavily by the trends regarding stuff like ScarfTar. B+ is more telling of the sets viability than A- is imo.

 

[Costi]

That is way too low in compatisonto its VR ranking to be worth bothering with. Imo the lowest any Latios set should go before becoming unranked is B+, and there is no way in hell that Specs Lati is a B+ threat if only due to how easy it is to punish with stuff like Pursuit users, fairies, darks etc. and with how punishable a non-STAB 60 BP move is to be locked into on a mispredict. Sure, it is guaranteed a kill or severe dent each time it comes in, but the price it pays for that is big in that, say, a -2/4 or psychic-locked Latios is complete Pursuit bait - not to mention that stuff like Scarftar is rising in usage.
As an aside, Heatran doesn't actually beat Specs Lati as Surf is the tied best fourth move on it with Trick.

Seeing how I'm talking anout choice-locked Lati, I think that Scarf is probably elegible for a drop at this point, cause honestly Scarf isn't all that good at all, being very easy to punish once the surprise factor is gone and being hurt heavily by the trends regarding stuff like ScarfTar. B+ is more telling of the sets viability than A- is imo.

While i mostly agree with you, i just wanted to point out that specs lati has a good chance to 2hko scarf ttar with a double dracos and it is guaranteed with rocks.

Basically there is a 50-50 between pursuit e crunch

 

[Creator of Chaos]

I mean your comments on specs lati kinda put it down, but the most common spread on clef is calm and no one really runs tank fable. Balance just has no switchins for specs lati right now, since it beats clef and beats ferro with hp fire. Only switchin on balance is tran, which get worn down very easily. Should be ranked at least b-.

I'm just stating facts and the whole meta needs to be taken into account not just just whats most common and in comparison to life orb, calm mind and Scarf. Specs is rather poor. In addition because boths its stabs have immunities its exploitable especially in comparison to other specs users who can fire stabs without wronging about immunities. At best the set is a poor lure for clef and Lati is certainly not hard switching either and on a clean switch Clef can tank 1 hit T-wave and still potentially win. If you really want to use lati to beat clef Calm mind and Trick scarf are the ways to go.

 

[imsosorrylol]

I'm just stating facts and the whole meta needs to be taken into account not just just whats most common and in comparison to life orb, calm mind and Scarf. Specs is rather poor. In addition because boths its stabs have immunities its exploitable especially in comparison to other specs users who can fire stabs without wronging about immunities. At best the set is a poor lure for clef and Lati is certainly not hard switching either and on a clean switch Clef can tank 1 hit T-wave and still potentially win. If you really want to use lati to beat clef Calm mind and Trick scarf are the ways to go.

You do realize that you are confusing the term lure and counter by saying that Latios can't switchin. Also like gamer boy said, how are you gonna rank a set for an a+ mon at d, it literally makes zero sense lol

 

[Creator of Chaos]

You do realize that you are confusing the term lure and counter by saying that Latios can't switchin. Also like gamer boy said, how are you gonna rank a set for an a+ mon at d, it literally makes zero sense lol

Where did I make it sound like a counter. I just summed up why Specs Latios is a very poor Answer to clef and made it clear it was a poor lure at that lol because really its not even garanteed to kill clef on the lure if the set is something other then standard. I'll admit I goofed on saying D rank set but of all the latios sets Its definatly the worst and should be ranked below scarf because atleast scarf does something and beats stuff like lop

 

[imsosorrylol]

Where did I make it sound like a counter. I just summed up why Specs Latios is a very poor Answer to clef and made it clear it was a poor lure at that lol because really its not even garanteed to kill clef on the lure if the set is something other then standard. I'll admit I goofed on saying D rank set but of all the latios sets Its definatly the worst and should be ranked below scarf because atleast scarf does something and beats stuff like lop

Specs does do something, it decimates balance, and as a matter of fact it does it very well. Also in a previous post u did say it cant switch into clef, which is irrelevant.

 

[AM]

Decimating balance is an overstatement for Specs when the Calm Mind set and just running a coverage option on Latios is what gives it the "balance" breaking potential it needs. I think Specs Latios is super iffy to begin with for w/e hype it gets. Out of all the mons that wants to be switching its move more freely Latios is definitely one of them. I guess people like the more immediate power and Trick options but idk Life Orb with the option to have recovery seems waaaay more appealing to me and when I account Latios in the teambuilding phase I'm thinking of Life Orb and Calm Mind sets. The choice sets are kind of an after thought cause a lot of times it's based on how the Latios is played in battle and the biggest tell is when no Life Orb recoil was taken + how much damage was received. If you really want to put it I'd probably just start it off at A-. Doesnt seem that much worse or better than its Scarf set.

On to something else I think we can move Agility M-Gross down to A-. I always find myself needing that one extra coverage move over a boosting set and it seems more practical to use the all out attacker set than the Agility ones.

I think urbandear mentioned this awhile back but I find Band Tar to be a weird place in A- for something that is actually really good at punching holes and softening up defensive cores really easily, think Stall for example. Unless it's like a Calm Mind set or something normally you can remove the Latis, Raikou, and M-Manectric in one Pursuit shot with the set also, making the teams function around Bandtar easie for the likes of say, Keldeo. Obviously accouting rocks + sand and prior damage btw.

I would put Specs Raikou above AV Raikou. Personal preference really.

I'm not exactly sure where people are using the Scarf Diggersby set effectively because I haven't seen one used since XY days and the Life Orb sets are just more dangerous and more appealing to use. Scarf should get a downgrade under the whole opportunity cost thing. Better scarfers, ground ones to, to be using.

Not a whole lot else to say for now.

 

[jvl101993]

Even though Specs Latios has tremendous power, it really appreciates the freedom to switch moves, especially with both its main STABs having immunities in the tier. There's an inherent risk-reward in using Choice items that is dependent on prediction, but the risk factor (and the need to predict correctly) is heightened when Latios' primary attacking moves (Draco and Psyshock) have mons who are immune to them. Being locked into the wrong move can turn the mon into set-up bait (this applies to just about every Choice user), but with Pursuit-weak mons, it also can turn them into Pursuit bait, as well as set-up fodder (which is why I try to avoid using Choice items on Dark-weak Pokemon).

However, the balance-breaking capabilities can't really be ignored either, since even though there's risk involved with Specs Latios, its rewards in doing tremendous damage are also great. But since it needs to be played really carefully and limits Latios' ability to change moves, I'd say start it at A- or B+ like AM or gamer boy have said. Not one of its best sets, but a usable one.

Agree that M-Meta really misses the extra coverage when running Agility/Rock Polish. I'd be okay with dropping it a sub-rank.

EDIT: Misread gamer boy's post. That's my bad.

 

[Martin]

Huh? I said it should not be ranked because it doesn't reach b+ levels of viability. Seriously there is so little reason to use this when CM exists considering just how easy it i to punish as soon as it locks itself into something. The fact that it is being used to beat CM Clef can just as easily backfire, because when a player with half a brain sees their clef takes over 50% from Psyshock they will instantly know to go out to a something like Scarftar or Bisharp (if they have one) to pursuit the latios who has just revealed that it's choiced. Losing out on potential recovery and the ability to switch moves for an approx. 15.4% increase in firepower is almost never worth it in the current state of the metagame due to just how punishable both of its STABs are imo.

 

[Infernal]

Slowking - Read through the thread and didn't see this mentioned, so maybe consider adding CM under Slowking? I see CM variants often, and they are pretty effective. The main reason to use Slowking over Slowbro is to take hits from special attackers like Mega Diancie, Latios, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo better. I mention this because that's also the main attribute Slowking has over Slowbro as a CM user. At +1, you can stomach hits from various Pokemon much better than Slowbro can. Examples include Mega Manectric, Mega Venusaur, Mega Gardevoir, and so on. Slowking also performs better against Clefable, which is one of the main reasons to run CM. With a physical defensive spread, CM Slowking is taking hits from both sides relatively well, while still holding the mentioned advantages over Slowbro. Since Slowbro is separated into defensive & CM in the OP, I would consider doing something similar with Slowking. Defensive Slowking uses Thunder Wave and plays differently than CM, so there is enough to differentiate them I think.

Bisharp - May be debatable, but is all-out-attacker Bisharp really on the same level as SD? This may just be me, but I consider SD Bisharp to be in a completely different league than all-out-attacking variants. The immediate boosting/sweeping potential from SD is what makes Bisharp so scary, letting it bust through numerous Pokemon with its boosted STABs and possibly end a game just like that. The lack of SD makes Bisharp that much easier to handle, and without it Bisharp has to rely on Defiant to gain boosts. This isn't all too reliable since Defog isn't used on every team. If I'm not mistaken, all-out-attacking sets often Pursuit. However, I don't think Pursuit Bisharp is anywhere near SD in terms of effectiveness either. As a Pursuiter, Bisharp is often put into 50/50 situations because of its mediocre speed, and performs the trapping role less reliably than other Pokemon like Tyranitar and Weavile. Overall, I think all-out-attacker Bisharp is way less useful than SD and could possibly drop down to A.