Will Garchomp's monstrous usage I see no reason to rank banded Talonflame. You're burdening yourself and giving it free SRs up 28% of the time, never mind all of its other checks. Stallbreaker/SD is just... a lot better
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Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)
- Thread starter bludz
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band is a legitimate set that i actually think is pretty damn threatening. i can honestly put garchomp into every argument. it walls a huge portion of the physically based metagame, but band talonflame is best with mons that wear its counters down like pup lopunny. the immediate power behind brave bird is extremely clutch and a lot of teams relying on softer talonflame checks just get outright pressured. last thing is you either wear down tyranitar and rotom-w with u-turn or get free momentum. simple = effective and i think band talonflame is a pretty cool b rank set that should stay because it is still relevant and can threaten a lot of offensive teams.
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I think you guys need to get a little more liberal with ranking certain sets way lower in general. Just a quick glance through A+ and you see RestTalk Keldeo at B+, Choice Scarf Bisharp at B+, and CM Diancie at B+. I look at this kind of ranking system as "if x was theoretically y mons only set, where would it be ranked?" and the answer from all three of those is probably B- or C+. Expert Belt Jirachi? Does that even exist in OU? Does it exist to the point where it is B+? The answer is no in my opinion.
So yes I do think stratifying (is that even a word?) these rankings would make them more realistic. Like I'd probably use any Mega Ampharos before using Choice Scarf Bisharp or EBelt Jirachi and I think the rankings should reflect that.
So yes I do think stratifying (is that even a word?) these rankings would make them more realistic. Like I'd probably use any Mega Ampharos before using Choice Scarf Bisharp or EBelt Jirachi and I think the rankings should reflect that.
I disagree with you here to an extent. Most of the sets you're talking about are sort of "innovations" that popped up in a major tour game or two and then started to see more widespread use. They may not be the most effective sets, but they fulfill effective roles nonetheless, and just because they're not as common as they once were doesn't mean they're significantly less effective. The fact that their roles are broader than the roles of lower ranked mons in terms of splashability and effectiveness is reason for their higher rankings. Also keep in mind that oftentimes when you use a lower ranked mon, you build the entire team around that mon, whereas you might throw a RestTalk Keld on any team that has a significant weakness to Weavile/Sharp/Ttar.
Some specific thoughts:
- Choice Scarf Bisharp turns a ton of would-be Bisharp checks into liabilities. Scarf Bisharp can reliably revenge a ton of shit like M-Diancie, Talonflame, and Weavile and it can Pursuit trap the way more effectively too. It's better defensive typing and lack of SR weakness are reasons to run it over Weavile. It shouldn't drop imo.
- Rest Talk Keldeo is another one that I don't think should drop. Its function as a long term check to stuff like Weavile, Bisharp, Heatran, and TTar is reason to run it as its not nearly as burdened by repeatedly taking hits from these mons, even if it loses its Lefties.
- Ebelt Rachi, too, shouldn't drop as it has such a unique movepool along with a great typing and decent power - meaning you can literally choose what mons you want Rachi to be able to KO.
These rankings are not aimed at the tour scene. These rankings are supposed to help newer player learn what is good and what is not good. Telling them that EBelt Jirachi and RestTalk Keldeo are on the same level as Diggersby, Suicune, and Terrakion is nuts. Most sets that are used in "tour games" and then see "widespread use" are often not as consistent because the tour scene is more about counter styling in a lot of situations. Additionally tour players can make a lot of things appear consistent due to talent level and in game skill, but again that's not the goal of these rankings.
The reason that something has a higher ranking is almost always based on its best set. Anything to the contrary is just not true as stated in the VR thread by AM many times. You are also giving the illusion of versatility to otherwise linear mons. Additionally, most of those sets sacrifice something huge from the macro functioning of a mon. For example, Scarf Bisharp loses its priority, a Keldeo loses its ability to pivot in and out against its common checks and thus cannot carry out the process of weakening its checks reliably, EBelt Jirachi can't switch into Gard as well, etc. Those are often huge tradeoffs.
This is clearly a fluff point when Keldeo checks the prior three things just fine. I never think in my teambuilding process "hey, I'm weak to Bisharp and Tyranitar, let me slap a RestTalk Keldeo on there" when Specs or SubCM offers a similar level of defensive check while also presenting more consistency in roles. The thought that you have to build around a lower rank mon to make it effective is entirely incorrect.
As far as your specifics, keep in mind I'm not calling for any of those sets to be unranked. I just think that it is misleading to a large degree of new players that the rankings are overinflated. It also gives certain otherwise linear mons the illusion of versatility when that simply couldn't be less true.
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IDK why Wobb's speedy set (outpaces Chansey, utilises Tickle) isn't listed on here. It plays completely differently to the standard trapper set (its much more aggressive) and IMO that is enough to separate the two sets. It should probably be in C.
I don't have any experience with Wobbuffet since I think Shadow Tag is aids and I don't use it. Can discuss with the ranking team I guess.
Anyway I dropped Excadrill's non Sand Rush sets a subrank and took off AV Bisharp. Kind of explained the reasoning for the Bisharp thing earlier and team thought it would be fine to drop the Exca sets based on the very clear different in viability between them and Sand Rush. urban brought up some good points on the specially defensive set and it was due for a drop
Anyway I dropped Excadrill's non Sand Rush sets a subrank and took off AV Bisharp. Kind of explained the reasoning for the Bisharp thing earlier and team thought it would be fine to drop the Exca sets based on the very clear different in viability between them and Sand Rush. urban brought up some good points on the specially defensive set and it was due for a drop
Forget whose idea it was to rank that but it's a nice anti-lead as it is actually pretty difficult to OHKO. I'm impartial either way on its ranking or lack thereof.
Also just as an update on the Defensive Lando-T thing, it seems it's staying in A+ rank for now. There hasn't really been enough push among us to move it down. While I agree with TDK that it isn't as good as Tank Chomp overall, its ability to be worn down / taken advantage of is sort of exaggerated I think. It doesn't take Spikes damage and has utility moves that Chomp does not such as U-Turn and Knock Off. Plus being an actual check to Charizard X is big plus preventing Excadrill from spamming EQ. Personally I think it's right on the borderline, and the team is split enough that it doesn't make sense to move it down after we agreed to move it up I think.
Also, we have now welcomed Mur to the rankings team.
A new discussion point which I thought was really good:
Do offensive Heatran sets deserve to be ranked above SpDef tran at this point?
Also just as an update on the Defensive Lando-T thing, it seems it's staying in A+ rank for now. There hasn't really been enough push among us to move it down. While I agree with TDK that it isn't as good as Tank Chomp overall, its ability to be worn down / taken advantage of is sort of exaggerated I think. It doesn't take Spikes damage and has utility moves that Chomp does not such as U-Turn and Knock Off. Plus being an actual check to Charizard X is big plus preventing Excadrill from spamming EQ. Personally I think it's right on the borderline, and the team is split enough that it doesn't make sense to move it down after we agreed to move it up I think.
In regards to this I made a post regarding something similar on the page before. I think if a pokemon is A+ rank then a C+ rank set has no real place being listed because it's obviously shit. Personally would be fine with removing CM Diancie, it's terrible. I was never fond of the other two sets but I find it hard to believe that RestTalk Keldeo as set overall isn't better than most of the pokemon ranked in B- just based on its attributes as a pokemon in good typing bulk and speed. That said anything's ranking at any time is up for discussion and you do bring up a valid point.
Also, we have now welcomed Mur to the rankings team.
A new discussion point which I thought was really good:
Do offensive Heatran sets deserve to be ranked above SpDef tran at this point?
Responding here because I'm strongly seconding this post.
I check this thread as an indicator of metagame trends and direct newer players from the ct room, as well as often see other people direct newer players, towards this thread. Everyone posting in this topic is aware of what Ebelt Jirachi/Scarf Sharp do, but given that the sets do not link to the analysis and/or give an overview of what the set does in any more detail then a simple grading (and given the fact that the VR thread recently removed definitions behind the gradings these can seem somewhat arbitrary) I think we should lean towards generalization (aka ladder hero) rather then specifics (aka tour scene) for the purposes of this thread. Yes, Scarf Sharp can fill a niche on certain teams, but saying that it is on the level of effectiveness and splashability as everything in B+ is not only downright insulting to everything in B+, but so can everything in the lower ranks.
While this is a horrible example as mentioning it tends to lead to shitstorms, it's also the most pertinent: Mega Latios. The ranking set on the first page of this discussion even says "Use Life Orb Latios IMO". However, it's still kept in C, because
Dropping niche sets doesn't really reflect badly on the mon or the niche set itself. It accurately portrays the set as niche and means that people don't have to spend half an hour explaining to new players why these sets arn't on the same level as mons that are actually in that level of viability. I guess the question you would ask yourself would be "Would this set be this ranking if I was to build with it to play all playstyles on the ladder (or a large quantity of unknown opponents around your skill level if you really just want to say "well, ladder's shit")?" In the case of these specific sets - probably not.
Do realize we're pretty aware of this and consolidating / considering removing general redundancies and or stupidity.
Gonna make this short and sweet since I'm off to bed soon so this can be used as another discussion point outside of stuff that hasn't been mentioned by team yet.
As I mentioned to the team Scarf Terrakion being in the same rank as what is practically an almost unviable lead in the metagame of Offensive Lead is sad and should at the very least sit a sub-rank higher.
AV Slowbro isn't really relevant in a general setting to begin with.
Subseed Serp is a major opportunity cost. Hits that mark of being team specific or counterstyle tour setting set. Confident you can just remove that.
Stallbreaker Pidgeot needs to be on equal rank to special attacker it's most viable set is the one running Refresh now a days to begin with in my eyes.
DDance and Wisp to me are really the only two set Zard-X will ever be running in terms of their greater effectiveness. If you want to keep SD, granted I agree with TDK initially to remove it, then at the very least remove Double Dance which is overrated.
I don't remember what the idea was about separating DDD and CG M-Alt but they seriously are ran exactly the same lol just with different variations depending on team needs. DDD would be consolidating that enough.
Uh remove boosting attacker M-Gross imo.
Life Orb: A
HexGar: B+
It should look like this for Gengar personally to me.
That's all for now maybe I should've just done what I did for Gengar for the others lol.
Also to elaborate on my enriching one word one liner offensive heatran puts more pressure on most builds I find than specially defensive variants simply cause it has the offensive capabilities to wear down normal switch ins and counterplay at a much more consistent rate.
What I said is kind of being blown out of proportion and misinterpreted. At no point did I say these sets were only viable in the tour scene. I said they rose to fame in a tour or two and then saw more widespread usage, followed by a decline in usage. But what's more important is that any time a thread like this comes up, it will form a weird amalgamation of rankings based on both the tour and ladder scenes, and that fact is inevitable. As such, I don't think we should remove sets just because they may see more usage in tours than on the ladder, because the metagame is actually blend of the ladder and tour metas. I get that this is a resource for beginners, but that doesn't change the metagame, nor does it change rankings in the main VR thread.
Also, you're over-dramatizing how niche something like Scarf Bisharp is when it is a totally valid and useful set for balance and offense. It has its advantages over more traditional sets, and just because it is not included in the analysis does not mean it shouldn't be included here. In fact, the ranking team pays very little attention to analyses when deciding what sets should be ranked because the sets in the analyses are static whereas the metagame is fluid and always changing.
So yeah, those are my thoughts on the matter. That being said, as AM mentioned, the ranking team is working to clean up and consolidate several sets. In terms of actual rankings, I agree with pretty much everything AM said as a lot of those things were discussed among the ranking team as a whole.
I mean i've been referencing this thread for a longer period of time then i've been even registered, and Celtic's post was just the push that I needed to respond because I wanted to make sure that the points it contained weren't glossed over as they were kinda important to me. I don't really mean any disrespect to you or was calling you out or anything, and i'm sorry if it seemed like it came across that way.
As I said, we're all aware of what Scarf Sharp does and I agree it is indeed a totally valid and useful set. A set doesn't need to be included in the analysis for it included here, or indeed, for it to be useful at all. However, when slapping together teams, the first thing that comes to my mind when dealing with xyz role is not "scarf sharp". I'm not really sure what you're saying here because it is more niche then other Bisharp sets and doesn't really deserve B+ and I fundamentally agree with the other points you're making here, but rankings will always have some level of subjectivity.
Yeah offensive Heatran is a lot stronger than defensive right now. Defensive looks good on paper since it fills a lot of roles and has all those great resists until you realize that it can't actually stop 75% of what it'd like to stop due to coverage moves and no recovery, and as AM mentioned it doesn't exert a lot of pressure. Offensive is just a lot more relevant for patching holes and actually threatens a lot of things depending on its movepool.
Also I'm not sure when the last time Scolipede's position was updated, but a pure Baton Pass set is pretty bad given the BP changes and doesn't really belong in C Rank anymore. I'd prefer to see it unlisted altogether.
Also I'm not sure when the last time Scolipede's position was updated, but a pure Baton Pass set is pretty bad given the BP changes and doesn't really belong in C Rank anymore. I'd prefer to see it unlisted altogether.
So regarding Heatran the team talked about it and we're conglomerating Fast Support and Stallbreaker into one set, pushing it into A+ and moving SpDef down into A.
Here are some other changes:
Gengar subsplit -> part of lo
Gengar scarf -> unranked
Keldeo ebelt -> unranked
Diancie cm -> unranked
Zard x sd -> unranked
Slowbro av -> unranked
Didn't make them all official looking since its basically just removing a bunch of junk. Personally I feel the same way about EBelt Jirachi, and yeah we can take out Baton Pass Scolipede lol
Oh yeah conglomerated the DDD / Cotton Guard Altaria sets and took out NP Hoopa-U for now as well considering what's the point of that set
Here are some other changes:
Gengar subsplit -> part of lo
Gengar scarf -> unranked
Keldeo ebelt -> unranked
Diancie cm -> unranked
Zard x sd -> unranked
Slowbro av -> unranked
Didn't make them all official looking since its basically just removing a bunch of junk. Personally I feel the same way about EBelt Jirachi, and yeah we can take out Baton Pass Scolipede lol
Oh yeah conglomerated the DDD / Cotton Guard Altaria sets and took out NP Hoopa-U for now as well considering what's the point of that set
p2
Banned deucer.
well this has kinda died so some thoughts:
Anyway, the point of Defensive Lando-T to A was brought up a while ago but I strongly disagree with that nom now (idk if there were any plans to come back to it or not but w/e). Lando-T is arguably the better Ground type right now because the amount of shit it checks is way more important than what Garchomp checks. Being able to check Zard X and Sand, while being able to weaken stuff like Lopunny and Metagross w/ Rocky Helmet damage + Intimidate is so useful and honestly it's because Bulky Garchomp is actually pretty overrated and key threats that Lando-T misses out on are Mega Scizor and Bisharp, both of which can be handled with the likes of Keldeo.
I still think RD Manaphy deserves S on the basis that is a Manaphy set that doesn't just get shit on by Chansey or stopped by Twave / Toxic.
Keldeo deserves a Life Orb set in place of Expert Belt since people are trending away from using EBelt when the damage output is just so important to maximise. This is evident in usage stats with sets like LO Taunt or LO CM becoming more popular
CB Hoopa-U deserves a set for obvious reasons, might not be A+/A, but it's still a decent set
What exactly splits SD Gliscor from Stallbreaker? They both kinda function in the same way except Stallbreaker runs Taunt more often and that isn't exactly a drastic change.
CB Kyu-B deserves a set too, I suppose B would be fitting because Scarf is generally better. AV doesn't do anything anymore, it existed for Greninja in xy, but that's long gone.
I think Dual Screens Klefki is absolute garbage, but w/e
AV Raikou is really bad too and I honestly see Specs as better despite how prediction reliant it is and if Raikou does rise to A in the VR it should be CM=A, Specs=A-, AV=B+
SubSeed Serperior is bad too, just generalize it as Contrary Wallbreaker and Stallbreaker, the former focusing on sets like LO 3 attacks and the latter focusing on something like Taunt / Sub + Synthesis
It's kinda bad but where's Victinis Scarf set?
Anyway, the point of Defensive Lando-T to A was brought up a while ago but I strongly disagree with that nom now (idk if there were any plans to come back to it or not but w/e). Lando-T is arguably the better Ground type right now because the amount of shit it checks is way more important than what Garchomp checks. Being able to check Zard X and Sand, while being able to weaken stuff like Lopunny and Metagross w/ Rocky Helmet damage + Intimidate is so useful and honestly it's because Bulky Garchomp is actually pretty overrated and key threats that Lando-T misses out on are Mega Scizor and Bisharp, both of which can be handled with the likes of Keldeo.
I still think RD Manaphy deserves S on the basis that is a Manaphy set that doesn't just get shit on by Chansey or stopped by Twave / Toxic.
Keldeo deserves a Life Orb set in place of Expert Belt since people are trending away from using EBelt when the damage output is just so important to maximise. This is evident in usage stats with sets like LO Taunt or LO CM becoming more popular
CB Hoopa-U deserves a set for obvious reasons, might not be A+/A, but it's still a decent set
What exactly splits SD Gliscor from Stallbreaker? They both kinda function in the same way except Stallbreaker runs Taunt more often and that isn't exactly a drastic change.
CB Kyu-B deserves a set too, I suppose B would be fitting because Scarf is generally better. AV doesn't do anything anymore, it existed for Greninja in xy, but that's long gone.
I think Dual Screens Klefki is absolute garbage, but w/e
AV Raikou is really bad too and I honestly see Specs as better despite how prediction reliant it is and if Raikou does rise to A in the VR it should be CM=A, Specs=A-, AV=B+
SubSeed Serperior is bad too, just generalize it as Contrary Wallbreaker and Stallbreaker, the former focusing on sets like LO 3 attacks and the latter focusing on something like Taunt / Sub + Synthesis
It's kinda bad but where's Victinis Scarf set?
Been kind of a while but I updated this to reflect current viability rankings
I also removed Terrakion's lead set (gross) and bumped sash Mamo down to B- because it's kind of trash. Didn't ask the guys but I dont think I would have gotten a ton of complaints. Took out subseed Serp too, it's just dumb imo.
Anyway I'll probably talk with the guys about some of flegg's nominations as I think a lot of them hold water. There might be other things to add or remove so feel free to post your opinions as usual
I also removed Terrakion's lead set (gross) and bumped sash Mamo down to B- because it's kind of trash. Didn't ask the guys but I dont think I would have gotten a ton of complaints. Took out subseed Serp too, it's just dumb imo.
Anyway I'll probably talk with the guys about some of flegg's nominations as I think a lot of them hold water. There might be other things to add or remove so feel free to post your opinions as usual
You don't use both SD and Tailwind lol you use one or the other depending on team matchup .-.
Anyway, I agree with all of Flegg's noms and I also think that specs raikou could probably be consolidated into a set called "Special Attacker" due to Zap Plate being really sweet on it atm as a substitute for specs.
Anyway, I agree with all of Flegg's noms and I also think that specs raikou could probably be consolidated into a set called "Special Attacker" due to Zap Plate being really sweet on it atm as a substitute for specs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sash Mamo was never meant to be the offensive threat its Life Orb set is, but instead meant to be a suicide lead for Hyper Offense. Stealth Rock/Endeavor/Ice Shard/Icicle Spear or Earthquake along with Oblivious reliably sets down rocks, punishes the opponent for bringing it down to its sash, and beats other sash leads. The main argument for the set would be whether the set is relevant anymore. It used to be seen regularly in early and even mid XY because Hyper Offense was so prevalent, bringing with it common sash leads and especially Garchomp, all of which Mamo generally has a good matchup against. But nowadays, Sash leads are almost never seen on Hyper Offense, and generally have their rocker as a bulky pivot like Tankchomp and Landog rather than having a dedicated lead (Granted, Mamo still does well against them, but the matchup isn't as forced). I'd be all for Sash going really far down - like, low C or even D - but I think it has enough merits to find its way on select teams.
SD + TW ZardX is actually really cool, +2 Spd Zard is a nightmare vs. offensive teams and most defensive ones can't really handle a +2 zard unless they have Heatran or Hippowdon. It's not as good as the DD sets and should be ranked lower, but it's definitely an A set.
SD + TW ZardX is actually really cool, +2 Spd Zard is a nightmare vs. offensive teams and most defensive ones can't really handle a +2 zard unless they have Heatran or Hippowdon. It's not as good as the DD sets and should be ranked lower, but it's definitely an A set.
Updated to reflect current rankings. Team recently had some discussion and there are a lot of possible moves that we might make. I went ahead and straight up removed Sash Mamo for the time being as it's completely irrelevant in this metagame. Anyway I'll go through our Skype chat and try to go over some of the stuff to see what's gonna happen. Very likely that AV and NP Hoopa will become unranked and we'll add a CB variant
Hey bludz,
You forgot to italicize the font of Blissey, Crobat and Shedinja.
One question to Togekiss: Could you change "Nasty Plot" (B+) into "Nasty Plot Offensive/(Offensive)" or something like that? It isn't clear in this case, because the Defensive Set (B-) also uses NP sometimes.
One question to M-Ampharos: The defensive set is C+, the offensive one is C. With Offensive you mean Agility, am I correct? And what do you mean with Defensive? Is there a HP/SpDef Build you refer to?
Thank you for your answers. :)
Regards,
Eckleburg
EDIT: I looked up Ampharos in the SmogonDex - Do you refer to RestTalk with the Defensive Set? I really don't know how updated the SmogonDex is, that's why I'm asking again.
You forgot to italicize the font of Blissey, Crobat and Shedinja.
One question to Togekiss: Could you change "Nasty Plot" (B+) into "Nasty Plot Offensive/(Offensive)" or something like that? It isn't clear in this case, because the Defensive Set (B-) also uses NP sometimes.
One question to M-Ampharos: The defensive set is C+, the offensive one is C. With Offensive you mean Agility, am I correct? And what do you mean with Defensive? Is there a HP/SpDef Build you refer to?
Thank you for your answers. :)
Regards,
Eckleburg
EDIT: I looked up Ampharos in the SmogonDex - Do you refer to RestTalk with the Defensive Set? I really don't know how updated the SmogonDex is, that's why I'm asking again.
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