Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[vanderlylic]

Kammi, and later others, bring up excellent points about the cyclic nature of the top types in our metagame and banning to nerf a type. Cycling the top types is a great thing, however I wholeheartedly agree we shouldn't be doing this through bans every time. We're approaching (please notice those italics before you quote this and tell me I'm an idiot) a metagame that has most of the individually broken threats removed.

So, we're curious what you guys think about the concept of a Pokemon being broken because of team support (think about the Type-Only bans: Zapdos, Aegislash, Galladite, Genesect, etc.)? These are incredibly complex bans that go against many of the principles Smogon encourages in its tiering systems.
Do you think this philosophy is healthy?
If not, what would you suggest we change or how would you replace it? If so, why?

Are there other elements of the tiering philosophy you have qualms about? Why? What would you do about it?

The council has been discussing our tiering philosophy recently, so we want to get you guys opinions on it. It seems like a fitting time for such discussion to arise seeing as we just completed our first suspect test.
The council is currently discussing a number of different things. The tiering philosophy has been central to those discussions, so we're curious what you guys think about the above points. There are no set dates on anything, but we will take extra caution to avoid problems w/ the ladder reset.

"Hey, I have a great idea for a new metagame!"

"Yeah, what is it?"
​

"Let's split all 720 Pokemon up into 18 separate groups and players
can only choose Pokemon from one of those groups when building a team."

"So according to my calculations, you should have 40 in each group?"
​

"What, no. In one group I think I'll put 124 pokemon, and in another I'll put
just 35 pokemon. To make it fairer, I'll let some pokemon be in two groups"

"How on earth is that going to be balanced? You'll never get that past submission.
How do you account for the fact that some teams have heaps of choices, and others
have really strong pokemon to choose from, and some groups would be naturally
good against others? Surely you would be open to changing the groupings as the
metagame evolved, right?"
​

"Nope, the groups are fixed. Each generation I'll randomly assign the new
pokemon across the groups, based on a secret characteristic that Game
Freak gives each one."

"Okay... but there will be some bans though right?"
​

"Yeah of course. This is a metagame after all, how could it not have bans?
Obviously all Ubers are banned from the start, but if I feel that some of the
groups are a bit weak, I could unban them. Some mega stones too will have
to go, because they are just straight out overpowered. I'll also allow for group-
only bans, for pokemon that are in more than one group."

"What about reasons for future bans?"
​

"Well I was talking to my friend Nani Man the other day about it actually,
and here is what we came up with:"

1. If a single pokemon in one of the groups can automatically beat any team from at least three of the other groups, then I'll ban it
2. If a pokemon promotes group-based matchups, then I'll ban it.
3. If a pokemon in a group is broken due to team support available in its group, or it is just naturally really strong, then I'll ban it.
4. If a pokemon is part of a core that cannot be broken by most groups, then I'll ban it.
​

"What do you think?"

"It sounds pretty reasonable, except I have some questions about number 4. How many
is most? I think you should at least specify a number here. And are we talking just about
defensive cores only, or offensive and balanced cores as well? Also, why should one pokemon
in the core be banned over any of the others? Doesn't this sound a bit vague to you?"
​

"Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Maybe I could clear that up a bit"

"I also have some other suggestions for your tiering philosophy that might make the
metagame a bit more balanced:"
​

(a) That idea of unbanning Ubers to help out certain groups; bad idea. I can't see how that will help create a more diverse metagame, especially when you unban pokemon and put them in groups that already have heaps of diversity and don't need the help. If you want to unban Ubers, why don't you just make an Uber-based metagame?

(b) Why don't you give each group a sort of ranking? Then we teams from different groups play each other, then the group with the lower ranking would get more 'points' then it normally would, because it beat a higher ranked group.

(c) Why don't you make two metagames? In one you can have the groups as you started with, and no bans except for Ubers and certain megastones. In the other, you can remove an arbitrary number of the most used pokemon in your first metagame, and set them as the banlist in the second metagame. Sort of like UU.

(d) Ban megastones that change the pokemon from one group to another. These obviously create a lot of inherent problems with your metagame and wouldn't remove too much diversity.​

"What do you think? Obviously some of these you would have already considered, and
some are pretty rubbish suggestions too. But maybe they will spark some ideas to help
balance out your metagame a little. Still, it seems to me that the starting premise of
spilting all pokemon up into 18 groups and expected them to be equally usable is a bit flawed."
​

"I'll have to give it some thought."

"Well, it sounds like you've given this metagame a lot of thought already. Surely as the
metagame grows however, certain people would gravitate towards certain groups that are their
favourites, or that are just really easy to use?"
​

"Yeah that's true. Actually over time, seeing as the groups are inherently fixed and
the only way to bring change to the metagame is through banning pokemon, I can
see how eventually only a couple of groups would be used at all, or I would have to
keep banning pokemon to balance the metagame until there are only weak pokemon
left."

"Maybe you are right. Maybe it just isn't a really stable idea for a metagame in the first place.
What is the appeal anyway? Also you never did tell me how you were splitting the pokemon up
into those 18 groups either."
​

"I wanted to create a metagame that captured the nostalgia and power of certain
in-game characters. Have you heard of the type chart..."

 

[Acast]

Many of you know who GodChef is. For those that don't know, months ago he was a top player and was #1 on the ladder for a while with his Poison team. Anyway, he and I just had a conversation about this whole policy debate and, since he can't post on the forums for some reason, I thought it would be a good idea to post the conversation on here (with his permission of course) so his voice can be heard. It's a kind of a long read, but he makes some thought-provoking points.

PMs between GodChef and Acast

[07:55:25] GodChef: hey acast you there?
[07:56:16] +Acast: yep, hey what's up?
[07:56:33] GodChef: i was just going to ask if you had time to talk about the current meta and about bans and whatnot
[07:56:37] GodChef: i cant post on the forums O_O
[07:57:53] +Acast: oh sure, I can talk for a little bit.
[07:57:57] +Acast: but why can't you post?
[07:58:13] GodChef: yea i can read fine though it might be something wrong with my mobile
[07:59:34] GodChef: right now you guys are discussing how bans should be done and are looking at bug right
[08:00:56] +Acast: not necessarily bug. We've all pretty much agreed that bug doesn't need a nerf. It's just popular. But yes, it looks like the council is trying to establish clearer guidelines for when a ban is necessary
[08:02:03] GodChef: well i think before you look at bans or what are the guidelines of bans
[08:02:11] GodChef: you have to look at what you want monotype to eventually be
[08:03:09] GodChef: do you want a system where all types become "sorta" viable or do you want a system where all types are viable
[08:03:17] GodChef: or do you want a monotype where there is no "required" pokemon for a team
[08:05:40] +Acast: I agree with you that we have to decide what our end-goal is before we set guidelines for bans, but I believe Nani Man already established that back when Skymin and Kyurem-W were banned again.
[08:05:41] +Acast: His idea was that we would strive toward making every type usable, but not necessarily good. So if a certain pokemon renders a type completely unusable (talonflame), it should be banned.
[08:05:58] +Acast: Is that the kind of thing you were thinking of?
[08:06:17] GodChef: like back when they decided for the tf ban
[08:06:30] GodChef: the logic was that it was to make bug/grass/fighting more viable
[08:07:46] GodChef: bug and fighting got more usage but grass didnt
[08:08:00] GodChef: most grass users would say mega pinsir is a bigger threat than tf ever was
[08:08:50] GodChef: i think some types cant be "saved"
[08:08:58] GodChef: you hurt the meta too much by trying to do so
[08:08:59] +Acast: It wasn't to make them more viable, although those types becoming more viable might have been a result of the ban. Tflame was banned so that grass, bug, and fighting would all have at least a chance of winning vs Flying and Fire
[08:09:09] GodChef: the ideal meta would be for every player to play multiple types
[08:10:59] +Acast: I don't think that's something you can measure or even strive for. There are certain people who refuse to use anything but one specific type. I'd say the ideal meta is basically what Nani Man established: Every type being usable, even if they're not necessarily good.
[08:11:20] GodChef: you would have to ban a lot though like
[08:11:22] +Acast: of course that's just difference of ideology at that point
[08:11:40] GodChef: like we can agree if you keep bug the way it is
[08:11:44] GodChef: grass wont be able to really compete
[08:11:54] GodChef: im not saying bug should be nerfed
[08:12:01] GodChef: im saying grass just got the shit end of the stick
[08:12:22] +Acast: Mega Pinsir is on our radar right now. It's seriously being considered for a future suspect. Maybe not the next in line, but it's up there.
[08:12:37] GodChef: i have mixed feelings about that tbh
[08:12:50] GodChef: like how does mega pinsir affect the top types
[08:12:57] GodChef: psychic, water, flying, dark
[08:13:19] GodChef: i dont think psychic really cares because there is literally no scenario where mega pinsir can set up an sd for it to sweep
[08:15:06] +Acast: In the case of Mega Pinsir, I don't think it matters how it affects the top types. It's all about how it steamrolls Grass teams into oblivion. Of course on that same topic, Scizor basically does the same thing to Ice teams. So that's where it becomes a gray area
[08:15:38] GodChef: yup
[08:16:10] GodChef: like personally i think the best situation would be
[08:16:25] +Acast: But even Ice does have a slight check to Scizor with Walrein. It's extremely situational, but Grass doesn't really have the same for Pinsir
[08:16:50] GodChef: where a player starts out with water or flying or psychic because it is "easier"
[08:17:04] GodChef: gets to like top 10 or so on the ladder than transitions to something like grass to counter the current meta
[08:17:11] GodChef: that was what thimo did
[08:18:06] GodChef: before the ladder reset he got his ranking high enough so that he wouldnt be facing outlier teams of the lower rankings and used a grass team that basically countered generic flying psychic and dark
[08:18:32] +Acast: You can't expect standard players to do that. Thimo is a special case where he makes teams that somehow are extremely anti-meta. If a type works for someone, they're going to keep using it until they get bored.
[08:18:58] GodChef: i cant but i dont expect standard players to reach high on the ladder
[08:19:07] GodChef: exceptional players should since the top of the ladder lol
[08:19:21] GodChef: if you balance the mono around making every type viable
[08:19:34] GodChef: the types with more options/higher average bsts will always come out on tyop
[08:19:35] GodChef: top&
[08:19:48] GodChef: because game freak never designed each type to be balanced it was never their intention
[08:20:03] +Acast: the top of the ladder is probably only 2% of the entire metagame at most. They are the exceptions. That's why they got there.
[08:20:11] GodChef: yea
[08:20:21] GodChef: but im just saying if you want to make grass viable
[08:20:30] GodChef: how much would you have to ban lol
[08:20:51] +Acast: just pinsir. Grass would still have a tough time, but it least it doesn't get obliterated by one mon
[08:21:19] GodChef: i dont believe so
[08:21:23] GodChef: what about mega pidgeot
[08:21:27] +Acast: No one is saying we have to balance the types. Just that each type deserves a fighting chance in every matchup where possible.
[08:21:44] GodChef: yea for sure but i truly believe even if you ban mega pinsir
[08:21:48] +Acast: Cradily tanks Pidgeot and can hurt it back with Rock Slide
[08:21:50] GodChef: grass wont jump in usage
[08:22:10] +Acast: you're right, it won't, but it will have a fighting chance against bug for once
[08:22:30] GodChef: yes but you're giving a type a chance that they wont really take adv of
[08:23:01] GodChef: and then you're making a type that a lot of players play struggle with
[08:23:10] GodChef: because i also know genesect is also on the table with you guys
[08:23:29] GodChef: and the people that joined the bug band wagon are the flavor of the monthers
[08:23:36] GodChef: they'll really just jump to psychic/dark
[08:23:40] GodChef: or flying or water
[08:23:47] +Acast: Every type needs a fair chance. If Grass users don't take advantage of it, that's on them. They can do with it what they want, but I believe we have a responsibility to make sure they can at least have the ability to defeat bug without sacrificing their entire team.
[08:23:47] GodChef: they play those types because its easy
[08:24:15] +Acast: If they jump to the other types, good for them. let them do what they want
[08:24:37] +Acast: We're not trying to change which types are most used. We're trying to create a fair metagame.
[08:26:09] GodChef: right now what are the types do you think are like grass at the bottom?
[08:26:16] GodChef: maybe ice, rock?
[08:26:35] +Acast: electric, grass, ice, rock, poison are the bottom 5 at the moment. Not necessarily in that order.
[08:27:06] GodChef: now for ice you already brought up scizor
[08:27:16] GodChef: you said its a grey area okay
[08:27:53] GodChef: but between scizor and the support bug can give it, scizor can sweep ice
[08:27:56] GodChef: its really easy
[08:28:09] GodChef: would you ban scizor as well
[08:28:58] GodChef: then for electric gravity landorus sodomizes them hard
[08:29:11] GodChef: it also gives a hard time to poison
[08:29:14] GodChef: should landorus go?
[08:29:30] +Acast: Maybe the council will have to take a look at Scizor in the future. I don't know. If it is put up for a suspect, I can almost guarantee that it won't get the number of votes necessary for a ban, but following our current logic, I think Scizor might need to be discussed.
[08:30:13] +Acast: Mega Manectric has HP Ice, not to mention Magnezone's Sturdy set.
[08:30:35] GodChef: mega electric doesnt get the speed boost until it megas
[08:30:54] +Acast: That's why you wouldn't wait to mega evolve until Lando is in
[08:31:03] +Acast: if the lando leads, then you have magnezone's sturdy
[08:31:29] GodChef: the only real safe window you get is during the rotom-w to gastrodon/seismitoad
[08:32:25] GodChef: meanwhile whatever check you put to counter sandstorm excadrill is usually a good window for landorus to setup
[08:32:34] +Acast: Gravity Lando isn't a "no-win" scenario for electric. I'll admit it's extremely difficult, but there's at least a slight chance.
[08:33:12] +Acast: On that same topic, Keldeo destroys steel teams. Literally there are no switch ins and nothing that's faster than it can OHKO Keldeo iirc
[08:33:23] GodChef: yup
[08:33:34] GodChef: it can also destroy dark teams
[08:33:40] GodChef: if hoopa is gone
[08:33:50] GodChef: sub cm keldeo destroys a lot of ground/dark as well
[08:34:06] GodChef: there are checks but they dont really stand up to continued entry damage to stuff like sr
[08:34:29] +Acast: BUT, there are checks. You seem to be working under the assumption that we are saying "no counter for a mon=ban", when in reality that would just be absurd.
[08:34:30] GodChef: eventually their hp reaches a threshold where the thing they are trying to check just blasts them out because they reach ko range
[08:35:06] GodChef: no no im just saying that to balance the lower types
[08:35:31] GodChef: you would have to nerf the top types or even worse nerf the other low types as well
[08:35:31] +Acast: We're not balancing the lower types. That's the thing.
[08:36:06] GodChef: like i agree with what you're saying that there might be a point where grass becomes "viable"
[08:36:06] +Acast: Balancing the types is an impossible task that everyone gave up on months ago.
[08:36:21] GodChef: i'll rephrase bring the types closer to parity
[08:36:37] GodChef: but to achieve that point would require you to nerf a lot of the top types
[08:36:38] +Acast: No, we're not even trying to do that.
[08:36:51] GodChef: you're trying to give the lower types a better chance
[08:37:06] +Acast: Not even a better chance. Just any chance.
[08:37:19] GodChef: grass can work just not in the face of mega pinsir
[08:37:19] +Acast: As long as they have a chance, I think our goal is accomplished.
[08:37:27] GodChef: or fire lol
[08:37:42] +Acast: Grass has ways of dealing with fire. It has no ways of dealing with Mega Pinsir.
[08:38:05] GodChef: but i have a question regarding this
[08:38:31] GodChef: like for me i would love a mega pinsir ban
[08:38:55] GodChef: pinsir doesnt have a hard time getting a swords dance in and then proceed to slaughter my team
[08:39:45] GodChef: i just feel that if you ban every thing that makes a type "unplayable"
[08:40:26] GodChef: types like grass might be playable
[08:40:45] GodChef: but you're either going to tilt the meta towards something stall heavy
[08:41:01] GodChef: extreme scenario i know but its usually offensive threats that are under the microscope
[08:41:24] GodChef: in which you would have to update your criteria because some types dont have a good way to deal with stall
[08:41:43] GodChef: or you're just giving rise to different types that benefit a lot more from something like a mega pinsir ban
[08:42:09] GodChef: a type that like i dont know psychic or dark
[08:42:49] +Acast: There's nothing wrong with different types rising in usage. Just as long as each type has a chance of winning in each matchup, I personally believe our goal is accomplished.
[08:43:05] +Acast: anyway, sorry to cut you off there but I have to get ready for work
[08:43:13] GodChef: alright nice talking to you acast
[08:43:18] +Acast: Is it alright with you if I copy/paste this convo into the forums?
[08:43:26] GodChef: yea
[08:43:28] +Acast: You have some good ideas and you have a right to be heard at least.
[08:43:34] GodChef: i would have posted something like this there if i could
[08:44:00] +Acast: Alright cool. Thanks for the chat bro. It actually helped me think a little bit about my own stance in this whole debate :P
[08:44:14] GodChef: no its good we wont be stuck in our own views
[08:44:22] GodChef: if someone we respect raised a good point
[08:44:26] GodChef: we can at least ponder on it
[08:44:52] +Acast: Agreed! Well, ttyl
[08:45:20] GodChef: later

 

[scpinion]

Hey Guys,

Time to announce some major changes! These changes were unanimously agreed to by all 5 council members and will be implemented without a suspect test.

I want to emphasize the text you see below isn't solely mine. I compiled thoughts, ideas, and sentences from everyone into this post.

The Changes

Zapdos: Type-Only ban removed

Charizard-Mega-X: Globally banned

Genesect: Globally banned

Galladite: Type-Only ban removed

Damp Rock: Globally banned

Smooth Rock: Globally banned
wow, those are some massive changes!

Main Result
All Type-Only bans are removed, except Aegislash.

Why These Changes?
1. To Simplify the Banlist
Type-Only bans are incredibly complex, but make sense if you look at the Monotype metagame in a vacuum. They allow us to surgically remove the elements we deem broken with minimal collateral damage. However, the Monotype community is a part of Smogon. Smogon encourages simplicity in its tiering. If we want the opportunity to do more "Smogon Things" (loosely defined) then we should adopt their policies.

When an outside player (not necessarily new to Pokemon, but new to Monotype) looks at our banlist they see things like "Zapdos is banned on Flying, but not Electric" and think: "WTF?!?! Zapdos isn't even close to a broken Pokemon. What are these Monotype people thinking?". While veteran Monotype players understand, policies like these are a deterrent to growing the community, especially at the top end of competitive play.

Monotype has a large, passionate community for an OM, but we operate mostly separate from the greater OM and Smogon communities. This is something I've wanted to change for a really, really long time; the council agrees and we're actively working toward that. Simplifying our banlist to make the metagame more accessible is a first step toward accomplishing this goal.


2. They can be interpreted in the context of our current Tiering Philosophy.
Zapdos: The goal was to limit the number of Type-Only bans. Unbanning Zapdos was the first step to achieving this. Zapdos is not individually broken.

CharX: Unbanning Zapdos brings back the Skarm+Zapdos+Dragon Mega core that made Flying so good before Zapdos was banned. CharX gets banned from Flying to nerf that core. We want to avoid Type-Only bans to simplify the banlist, so CharX gets globally banned: trading a Zapdos Type-Only ban for a CharX Type-Only ban is nonsensical.

The argument can be made that CharX is not individually broken. I have a post in this thread arguing that exact point and CharX Fire is something many of us on the council view as a healthy playstyle. To be blunt, it is collateral damage from simplifying the banlist and integrating the Monotype community with Smogon. After some lengthy discussions, all 5 council members agreed to this change.

The silver lining: CharX destroys some of the lesser used types, so a global ban makes them more usable.

Genesect: We're trying to remove Type-Only bans, so it is either unban from Steel or ban from Bug. Easy choice: the metal bug gets dekt. Nerfing Bug had minimal impact on this decision.

Galladite: Once again, we're trying to remove Type-Only bans, so it is either unban from Psychic or ban from Fighting. Galladite can go either way. Some of us thought Galladite was a hasty ban at the start of ORAS, so we're going to give it another chance. If it proves to be too much we can hold a suspect test for Galladite and let the community decide whether or not to globally ban it.

Weather Rocks: There is minimal collateral damage from globally banning Damp/Smooth Rock.

Why not Aegislash?
Altering the Type-Only ban for Aegislash is antithetical to our current tiering philosophy. If we remove it from Ghost then we're severely nerfing a Type that is already limited. Bringing it back on Steel re-creates the Immunity Core that made Steel teams so amazing in the XY metagame. Thus, instead of completely changing the tiering philosophy, we opted to leave Aegislash as Monotype's only complex ban and initiate a discussion on changing the tiering policy.

Tagging The Immortal to implement these changes.

 

[Anttya]

I just finished my generic Zard-X team, why do you do this to me

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

just wow. RIP Mega Charizard, you will be missed

 

[Where'dTheseDucksComeFrom]

Wow mega gallade is back maybe i can play monotype again

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Genesect banned? I never really found it very threatening. But a +1 U-Turn does hurt, plus that very wide movepool....

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I am fine with most of it but gallade unban on psy is questionable

 

[perish song me]

Wow. This certainly is a huge change. Can't say I'll be sad to see zard gone though, flying zard x teams were getting all over the place. Flying nerf would make bug op, but no genesect...not sure how much I like the genesect ban but considering genesect would let bug beat zardless flying and flying is bug's check I guess it's needed. Still no idea how things are going to shape up though.

 

[iGlack]

Psychic as a type is absolutely ridiculous now. Should be fun :)

 

[Arash]

Combining a few of the points brought up earlier, I think that GodChef is right on what'll happen if we ban things to help out the crappier monotypes. It'll eventually get to the point where we ban stuff like meloetta, victini, heatran, and other things that everyone agrees aren't broken at all, just to help out poor grass and ghost types, etc..

At the same time, by not banning threats like mega-altaria or talonflame that basically invalidate types like dark and grass, monotype will eventually have 6-7 types seen on the ladder. I think an ideal solution is something like what was brought up earlier, where laddering with types like grass and rock give you more points or credit vs laddering with flying or psychic. Even though types like rock are shitty, some people will still play them (maybe they like rock mons like me, or maybe they played RBY and really liked Brock, or maybe they are up for the challenge).

In regards to the new stuff that was banned, this is pretty much how I would have voted on these items, with the exception of the weather rocks (rock teams and dragon teams could have effectively used smooth / damp rock, respectively). Galladite will probably end up as a global ban later, as mono-fighting has access to mega-medicham and even regular gallade to rely on (similarly, fire teams arguably prefer charizard-Y anyway, so the loss of charizard-X isn't so bad; this case is slightly different because a charizard in team preview is now essentially guaranteed to be char-Y).

kinda surprised pinsirite wasn't touched though... I imagine this will be next on the chopping block seeing as how it beats mega-gallade handily

EDIT: in light of the char-x ban, i think my avatar is appropriate for the many flying users out there

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I am fine with most of it but gallade unban on psy is questionable

I agree. Now Mega Medicham is pushed out, and it gives it a Pokemon that can stand up to Dark Types (*cough* *cough*, Physical Tyranitar) but now it's overpowered. Monotype Rock is getting worse and worse. First no immortal sandstorm, no smooth rock, basically eliminates the possibility for a viable sand team. Ice now can stop Flying with the ban of Mega Charizard X, which was the only thing keeping it from supremacy. Expect to see a bump in Ice Monotype and Bug Monotype as it's prime predators are dead. RIP Monotype Rock

 

[ed wins]

Ahhh... Psychic with Hoopa and Mega-Gallade and Bug seeing a decrease in usage. Hello 15%+ usage for Psychic

 

[Arash]

I agree. Now Mega Medicham is pushed out, and it gives it a Pokemon that can stand up to Dark Types (*cough* *cough*, Physical Tyranitar) but now it's overpowered. Monotype Rock is getting worse and worse. First no immortal sandstorm, no smooth rock, basically eliminates the possibility for a viable sand team. Ice now can stop Flying with the ban of Mega Charizard X, which was the only thing keeping it from supremacy. Expect to see a bump in Ice Monotype and Bug Monotype as it's prime predators are dead. RIP Monotype Rock

(mega) scizor is definitely ice's worst nightmare, and bug will have a way harder time vs steel now (better keep that volcarona alive). If anything, rock types appreciate that Excadrill only gets 4 turns to smash things instead of 7, and that Genesect can't come in and u-turn / energy ball / ice beam everything...

if anything, top 3 until the next ban will likely be psychic, steel and flying (zapdos is back, and mega-gyarados has always been dangerous)... bug is harder to use without genesect

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Yeah, but...um....er....yeah, good point.

 

[Josh]

My thoughts on all of the changes:

Zapdos: Type-Only ban removed

PLEASE NO. STALL FLYING IS AIDS. PLEASE.
Global ban if you have to, but please this thing is so cancer. Skarm is annoying enough to deal with for quite a few types, the zapdos+skarm core still functions quite fine without zardx.

Charizard-Mega-X: Globally banned

I'm indifferent, although with cancer zapdos back on flying, I'm definitely happy about this ban.
Before the Zapdos unban, I was undecided on which way I'd vote in a potential suspect. ZardX has never really given me a problem though personally.

genesect: Globally banned

Agreed; not because bug needs a nerf or because genesect is "broken" but it's definitely borderline and more importantly, on steel it would have been incredibly broken.

galladite: Type-Only ban removed

Agreed. Although I don't fully understand why it was type banned in the first place so if someone could shine some light on that I'd appreciate it.

damp rock: Globally banned

smooth rock: Globally banned

Sure lol why not, no type uses these besides water/ground anyways lmfao. Not like it matters.

Altering the Type-Only ban for Aegislash is antithetical to our current tiering philosophy. If we remove it from Ghost then we're severely nerfing a Type that is already limited. Bringing it back on Steel re-creates the Immunity Core that made Steel teams so amazing in the XY metagame. Thus, instead of completely changing the tiering philosophy, we opted to leave Aegislash as Monotype's only complex ban and initiate a discussion on changing the tiering policy.

Disagree with Aegi being on ghost in general and would definitely support a global ban. This may be controversial, but it really is quite good on ghost as well. I can see why it wouldn't be viewed as broken enough to ban, but it's definitely close, and I don't see the point of leaving one complicated ban.
Also, this: "If we remove it from Ghost then we're severely nerfing a Type that is already limited."
What happened to not unbanning things just to make less viable types more viable?

I might be biased to that one because I love fighting, and fighting's best check to ghost, Conkeldurr, flat out loses to a well-played Aegi.

 

[TheAce22]

Just quickly saying bcuz of these new bans physic is most likely gonna raise a ton in usage so i thought a good idea would to to unabn greninja. I didntplay much in greninja meta so it may be much more op then i remember but just putting out an idea :p

 

[Arash]

My thoughts on all of the changes:


PLEASE NO. STALL FLYING IS AIDS. PLEASE.
Global ban if you have to, but please this thing is so cancer. Skarm is annoying enough to deal with for quite a few types, the zapdos+skarm core still functions quite fine without zardx.

Disagree with Aegi being on ghost in general and would definitely support a global ban. This may be controversial, but it really is quite good on ghost as well. I can see why it wouldn't be viewed as broken enough to ban, but it's definitely close, and I don't see the point of leaving one complicated ban.
Also, this: "If we remove it from Ghost then we're severely nerfing a Type that is already limited."
What happened to not unbanning things just to make less viable types more viable?

a zapdos global ban would completely invalidate electric teams, as they literally have no other option to remove hazards, and will roll over and die to mold-breaker excadrill.

similarly, ghost without aegislash is complete rubbish (worse than grass imo) and leaving it on ghost has proven to be not broken in the slightest.

 

[Tylacto]

I might finish this post after I've cried for a few hours. In my opinion (not that it's ever going to matter) it's way too much way too quickly, makes psychic incredibly powerful, hugely cripples bug, and brings back stalling flying. I see it as going against the old philosophy of creating a fair meta-game where diversity is encouraged, creating an even wider gulf between the better and worse types, and it's just sad things like for the sake of 'going by an ethos', banning damp and smooth rock on other types in my opinion is only discouraging creativity even more, because no-one can claim that something like a sandstorm steel or a rain dragon is broken. Oh well, I'm sure it suits alot of people other than myself. v_v

 

[Croven]

Goddamnit I can't spam my HO fly for easy wins uggghhh

Time to see if Gyara or tailwind Zard y works out there xd

(If someone with more energy than me wants to test these changes, please do so I can be lazy : ))

 

[DoW]

If Psychic is evidently too powerful, suspecting Galladite is still a very real option that we will look into if something needs to be done.
In terms of Flying Stall, Zapdos and Skarmory together still don't wall everything and I expect that other suspects can be held if needed in order to stop Stall Flying from being overly broken. If it seemed like we wouldn't be able to keep types balanced under this new system, I can assure you there wouldn't have been a unanimous agreement to this.

 

[i'm sora]

My thoughts on all of the changes:


PLEASE NO. STALL FLYING IS AIDS. PLEASE.
Global ban if you have to, but please this thing is so cancer. Skarm is annoying enough to deal with for quite a few types, the zapdos+skarm core still functions quite fine without zardx.


I'm indifferent, although with cancer zapdos back on flying, I'm definitely happy about this ban.
Before the Zapdos unban, I was undecided on which way I'd vote in a potential suspect. ZardX has never really given me a problem though personally.


Agreed; not because bug needs a nerf or because genesect is "broken" but it's definitely borderline and more importantly, on steel it would have been incredibly broken.


Agreed. Although I don't fully understand why it was type banned in the first place so if someone could shine some light on that I'd appreciate it.



Sure lol why not, no type uses these besides water/ground anyways lmfao. Not like it matters.



Disagree with Aegi being on ghost in general and would definitely support a global ban. This may be controversial, but it really is quite good on ghost as well. I can see why it wouldn't be viewed as broken enough to ban, but it's definitely close, and I don't see the point of leaving one complicated ban.
Also, this: "If we remove it from Ghost then we're severely nerfing a Type that is already limited."
What happened to not unbanning things just to make less viable types more viable?

I might be biased to that one because I love fighting, and fighting's best check to ghost, Conkeldurr, flat out loses to a well-played Aegi.

literally 75% of your points are lost af.

ANYWAYS

Zard-x: noooooo i fought so hard for you.... r.i.p.

Gallade-M: i have no idea why psychic needs this + hoopa + every other psychic mon, but i don't play fighting so i can't really comment on that.

Zapdos: i'm kind of happy about this unban but at the same time.. ice is going to be such a meanie. time to run rest talk gyarados :(

Genesect: i don't think this was the poke to ban on bug. sure it's strong and it's movepool is **disgusting** but Pinsir-M is just way more threatening.

 

[Balto]

nice job to the monotype council for making more progress in the span of a few months compared to last year's nothingness...
you made balto happy ^_^

 

[Acast]

This is...going to take some time to get my head wrapped around 0_o

Quick summary of my opinions, because I know everyone cares about what I think (sarcasm):

Zapdos unban: I see the reasoning behind it. I don't know if I'm happy about it, but at least it makes sense to me.
Charizardite X ban: Agreed.
Genesect ban: Agreed.
Galladite unban: Again, I see the reasoning, but I'm almost 100% sure that eventually it will be globally banned. Although since the original Galladite ban might have been a bit rushed, I suppose it's good to wait for it to have a fair suspect test this time around.
Weather rocks ban: ...really guys. REALLY? I just spent the last 3 days trying to perfect my rain-based Dragon team and now THIS???

[Acast rages and breaks stuff]​

But in all seriousness, I understand this reasoning too. I'm disappointed that they are being banned, but only for my own selfish reasons. The logic makes sense and it's a good decision when we think about our banning philosophy.


Predictions

• Psychic is about to skyrocket in usage. The re-addition of Mega Gallade and ban of Genesect along with the existence of Hoopa-U is just going to reinforce Psychic's already great standing and shoot it to the top. Flying ruled the metagame for a long time. Then Bug was at the top for a few months, and now I'm predicting the coming months will be the Reign of Psychic™.
• As I mentioned, Galladite will probably be banned again eventually. It's just a matter of when and whether other things will be banned before it.
• As others mentioned, Flying is going to take on a much more defensive approach now that Zard X is gone and Zappy is back. Even stall might become common.

What I think should be looked at next (after the meta settles down of course):

• Pinsirite
• Galladite
• Maybe Hoopa-U

Honestly, those are the only three I can think of that would be a problem now that all these changes were made. Maybe Scizor would be next since it decimates Ice, Fairy, and most of Rock, but we can worry about that once the bigger threats are out of the way. Besides, by then I'm sure something else will come along to throw a wrench in things (Mega Zygarde anyone?)

TL;DR I'm happy with the changes and I love that the meta is basically getting a reset. A ton of good things were changed that I thought would take half a year to accomplish. While I'm not 100% sold on all of the decisions, at least I see the logic behind them and that's what I think is most important. I couldn't be happier with our council.

 

[Fractions.]

Unbanning Zapdos? I am already losing matches http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-260983441

The Zard-X ban was needed. RIP Anttya or any other flying user. And since Genesect is now global banned, time for me to scrap half of my teams. Bug will see a much harder time against steel now, as said by Arash. Time to build anti steel bug, and make it my main.
[Flips over a few tables, and tips some fedoras]
Also, psychic will be ridiculously powerful now. I expect to see at least a 100% rise in usage.