Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Acast]

To a certain extent I agree with both darkrai147 and runbabyrun but I think it all depends on why the Pokemon is being suspected. If the Pokemon is just so much of a problem that it destroys certain types on its own no matter what its teammates are (ex: Talonflame) then what type it's on shouldn't matter in the slightest. If the Pokemon's viability or brokenness is heavily dependant on the support it receives from its teammates (ex: Mega Gallade) then of course the typing should be considered when deciding if the Pokemon needs a ban. So we need to make a decision with M-Altaria. Is it so good on its own that its teammates wouldn't matter? Or is it possibly broken just because it has good support?
In my opinion, Altaria is a special case in which it's a little of both, but Dragon and Flying have enough support that I think it should be banned no matter which of my descriptions fit it better.

If Monotype wants to become closer to an official metagame, then the focus needs to be on Altaria.

As a side note, Monotype is probably never going to be an official tier. We may be the most popular OM, but aspiring to more than that is probably a lost cause. And to be perfectly honest, I'm ok with that.

 

[ReuzeSmurf]

I've been away all weekend so I didn't get a chance to respond as this discussion arose.
A comment on the usage stats that speaks toward the rare becoming rarer point: The stats are weighted.

The types you encounter on the high ladder contribute more, which means types like Ice, Rock and Electric show lower usage and types like Bug, Flying and Psychic show more usage vs. their their unweighted values .

I thought for quite a while on whether I should publish those numbers as weighted or unweighted. Ultimately I went w/ weighted b/c I wanted the stats to reflect what one would encounter when facing stronger battlers with polished teams, not random people using their favorite type. I'll let you guys discuss what this means opposed to just posting my opinions.

unweighted type usage

If you'd like to view the unweighted stats for other months Antar publishes them on Smogon.

monobug....................... 8.24793%
monowater..................... 7.81983%
monoflying.................... 7.48663%
mononormal.................... 7.15438%
monopsychic................... 7.12094%
monofighting.................. 7.08120%
monodark...................... 6.81394%
monodragon.................... 5.91416%
monosteel..................... 5.62957%
monofire...................... 5.57474%
monoghost..................... 4.96996%
monoground.................... 4.30951%
monopoison.................... 4.29644%
monograss..................... 4.29428%
monofairy..................... 3.92782%
monoelectric.................. 3.41582%
monoice....................... 3.23558%
monorock...................... 2.84157%

Thanks for posting these stats, Scpinion. I can already see some interesting things.

Water and Normal have a relatively high usage, in contrast to what the Weighted Stats on the site may make you believe while Ground seems to really have fallen in usage after the Smooth Rock ban (or wasn't it that common in the first place?)

Comparing the Weighted stats with the Unweighted stats on the site should give a good idea how likely certain types are to get to high ladder:

• Weigted % > unweighted % --> more common in high ladder:

Bug, Psychic, Flying, Fighting, Steel, Dragon, Ground, Fairy

• Unweighted % > weighted % --> not as common in high ladder:

Water, Dark, Normal, Fire, Ghost, Grass, Electric, Poison, Ice, Rock

Fairy seems to be rather underrated, as it's presence in high ladder is relatively high, while Water seems to get a little more usage then it deserves. It's also interesting to note that the weighted usage % for Bug and Psychic are 2,4% and 2,3% above their unweighted usage %, truly marking them as dominant forces in high ladder.

 

[Sae]

Okay so I didn't really face that many people with MAlt teams on the ladder when I got req's so I decided to take matters into my own hands. I've been asking some of my fellow auth (mostly just Bondie so S.O. to him for helping when Anttya was lame and couldn't :p) for battles with weirder type matchups where MAlt's prescence was either neutral or supposedly advantageous just to see how it really fared in the meta besides the one-sided matchups with like Dark and Fighting. Do note that these replays aren't definitive by any means because:

• I'm not a master of most of these types, and my fellow auth probably aren't either. We all are knowledgeable enough though which is the point of these replays.
• Hax is hax which is why I'm breaking these down.
• I've gotten to know the teambuilding of most of these teams, so the surprise factor of the MAltaria set isn't as big a factor in this (except the Dark v Flying).

Poison vs Flying

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-257507980

• There's not too much to say about this match. Poison STAB already beats MAltaria so the usual Flying vs Poison matchup occurs. Poison using Nidos to break the Flying cores. On average Flying teams would normally just win with Landorus-I, but w/e that's not the point. Even EQ MAltaria wouldn't be an issue for most Poison teams as it really shouldn't have the chance to setup and there would always be something to hinder it like Weezing if push comes to shove.

Dark vs Flying

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-257509552

• This isn't the best replay overall, but might as well show it. First thing to note is that I use Mega Ttar over Mega Sableye. This plays an important part as I can potentially Wisp MAltaria with my Sableye and Taunt it if it had Heal Bell. My game plan was mainly to use this as my pivot to sack into Scarf Hoopa and apply pressure to prevent it from doing that. Things were different than I expected. The match starts as a Gliscor vs Dark defensive core war until I make the play to wish pass into my Mega Ttar. This throws off Bondie since he believed I'd probably be Spdef reg Ttar with Ice Beam which allowed me to break that with Ice Punch (cause one I'm Adamant and two he's probably a Spdef Gliscor). By that logic too, that's why he didn't switch into Skarm in case I used Fire Blast so overall Gliscor was the most reasonable play to make. After that I have to sack my mega to pivot into Sableye and then it's more whittle at the other side. Bondie makes a misplay with the Skarm and BB my Bisharp and then misclicks into Defog effectively letting me break his Skarm for free. I was assuming Bondie would use a slower MAltaria so I stayed in, find it outpaces Jolly Bisharp and ended up using my Sableye plan of Wisp+Taunt. From there Scarf Gunk Shot breaks his team, but I didn't want to risk consecutive misses so once MAltaria died I just stalled out the rest of the team with Sableye.
• This battle definitely could have gone differently depending on both the MAltaria set and the misplay->misclick Bondie did. If he did use Whirlwind instead of BB the Bisharp which I think would have been the best play, who knows where this battle would end. The gameplan still wouldn't change for me as I'd need to use my Sableye strat to wear him down, but yeah things could have gone very differently.

Ghost vs Dragon

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-257962221

• Now this one I definitely felt pressured this entire match. This time I do have Mega Sableye so I can't abuse the Taunt+Wisp strat but I do have Dazzling Gleam (not that I really ever get the chance to use it). I definitely could have played this battle better, but that Dragon team did what it normally tries to do: overwhelm you. If I had WP mixed Aegislash I definitely could have put the pressure back, and I didn't so I was getting pushed back entirely since my Froslass was just a lead Froslass w/o any Ice moves.
• The one thing I did notice was that MAltaria actually had the team support, but at the same time supplied the team support back for the Dragon team in that Heal Bell ruined my chances to stall out Bondie (yeah Rest Garchomp and Healing Wish Lati but you get the idea). This makes me question the presumption of MonoDragon not having enough team support. While MAltaria doesn't have to be the star, it still can be a decisive mon in the matchup.

Grass vs Dragon

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-257959405

• So Grass can definitely beat Dragon, it just has to put some effort into it. Although yes my team kind of looks a bit anti-dragon since I run Specs Whimsicott but tbh that's just because I don't like using Serperior. Both have pretty good speed stats and can hit hard; one just trades power to boost for Switcheroo, coverage, and Infiltrator which is actually worthwhile. While a Serperior team can't spam Leaf Storm -> Dragon Pulse while a Specs Whimsicott can just spam Moonblast in this matchup, MAltaria can be handled by Mega Venusaur potentially and by Ferro if it lacks Fire Blast. I don't see a MAltaria setting up easily against Mega Venu just because Sludge Bomb's chances for Poison pressures a monoattacker from getting anywhere and EQ/Fire Blast doesn't do too much.
• Other things I had: Scarf Roserade + SS Ludicolo. I never use SS on water, but here on Grass it's a different story as it's a great anti-fire member. I honestly don't like Cradily for that but that's a rant for another time...
• Sleep turns definitely matter in this matchup which is where MAltaria can ruin grass teams since Heal Bell can just ruin plans if played well. MAltaria can also sweep Grass teams once Mega Venu and/or Ferrothorn (depending on moveset) is removed without really a chance to fight back. Take that as you will.

Rock vs Dragon

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-257965361

• And you guys think Rock is bad lmao. It has its problems but in matchups like these it can put in work even without Mega Diancie. MAltaria doesn't really do much since it doesn't have Fire Blast to beat Mega Aggron, and the other Dragons couldn't take it out since no SD Garchomp. That's all I can really say.
• I'd honestly just ask SirSkit for his opinion on this matchup but yeah...

Grass vs Flying

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-257967346

• This honestly should have gone to Acast but nobody can use Anttya's team except her as the hax proves it. Interestingly enough, because the AV Tornadus kept missing the cricial Hurricanes, we get to see what this matchup is really like. The defensive Flying core is bolstered by MAltaria's prescence since between that, Gyara, Skarm, and Mandi it's kind of hard for Grass teams to do much. Togekiss would have done the same thing effectively against Grass if not worse because it can spam Air Slash.
• MAltaria makes the matchup hard, but honestly doesn't do as much comparatively unless it was the DD+3 and Mega Venu is gone.

Again these aren't the best replays out there, but I figured I'd just drop these. If you don't agree with what I say, at least bring up more replays and preferably against neutral types since the neutral matchups are what will probably push the decision between ban and don't ban. If you want some replays where MAlt kind of just decks teams go look up replays for either Anttya or her alt for reqs MS1 Anttya. There are some pretty one-sided matches and she actually can control the hax on her team (I swear everyone else who's tried keeps missing a pivotal Heat Wave). I'm just trying to do my part to get more facts in since I think everyone has noticed the lack of presence MAltaria has seen on the ladder (although this might be slightly outdated as there are a few more teams on the ladder now...probably not enough though).

On a lighter note, I'm pretty sure this suspect is mainly to nerf Anttya from being OP so I'll leave you with this: #banAmbitiousAltarias #banttya #TwaveDuranttya

 

[Anttya]

Come on, Alt isn't that OP, it only 6-0s a couple of types :(

Also, if you find Bulky DD Alt too slow, try this since it lets you outspeed base 100s after one DD while maintaining your special bulk

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 96 SpD / 96 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Frustration
- Heal Bell

#Ambitious

Sae, if you want me to Hax your grass, find me tommorow and I'll happily do that ;)

 

[ed wins]

I say that we do away with this suspect test and ban Anntya instead


Turn 27
★Acast: I would understand Hurricane missing
★Sae Sae: this is why nobody can get that team to work besides Ant
★Acast: but heat wave? ;-;
espurr: lol
★Acast: so true, Sae
★Sae Sae: I had Heat Wave miss too with her team ;;
Bondie: Sae I hit heat wave against you tbf
Bondie: But I can't do it as consistently as Ant
★Sae Sae: but you weren't using her team
★Sae Sae: it's this team I say
Bondie: She wouldn't give it me

The opposing Ferrothorn used Protect!
The opposing Ferrothorn protected itself!

Tornadus-Therian used Heat Wave!
The opposing Ferrothorn protected itself!

The opposing Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Tornadus-Therian was hurt by poison!
Turn 28
Bondie: Meanie
★Acast: Someone needs to find proof that anttya is hacking. There's no way she can be as consistently lucky as she is without hacking ;-;

Tornadus-Therian used Hurricane!
The opposing Ferrothorn avoided the attack!

The opposing Ferrothorn used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around your team!

The opposing Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Tornadus-Therian was hurt by poison!
Turn 29
★Acast: GAH
espurr: she's just a lucky

 

[Fractions.]

I say that we do away with this suspect test and ban Anntya instead


Turn 27
★Acast: I would understand Hurricane missing
★Sae Sae: this is why nobody can get that team to work besides Ant
★Acast: but heat wave? ;-;
espurr: lol
★Acast: so true, Sae
★Sae Sae: I had Heat Wave miss too with her team ;;
Bondie: Sae I hit heat wave against you tbf
Bondie: But I can't do it as consistently as Ant
★Sae Sae: but you weren't using her team
★Sae Sae: it's this team I say
Bondie: She wouldn't give it me

The opposing Ferrothorn used Protect!
The opposing Ferrothorn protected itself!

Tornadus-Therian used Heat Wave!
The opposing Ferrothorn protected itself!

The opposing Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Tornadus-Therian was hurt by poison!
Turn 28
Bondie: Meanie
★Acast: Someone needs to find proof that anttya is hacking. There's no way she can be as consistently lucky as she is without hacking ;-;

Tornadus-Therian used Hurricane!
The opposing Ferrothorn avoided the attack!

The opposing Ferrothorn used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around your team!

The opposing Ferrothorn restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Tornadus-Therian was hurt by poison!
Turn 29
★Acast: GAH
espurr: she's just a lucky

Off topic, but sure, ban the biggest haxer/cheater around.

#BAnttya

 

[Dece1t]

Off topic, but sure, ban the biggest haxer/cheater around.

#BAnttya

I 2nd that xD

 

[lax]

going a bit off topic here but lgi. (were just waiting for alt suspect to end anyways :d)

Hello~ I'm writing this for Hoopa-U because there has been recent talk about it being overpowered. To put it bluntly, I think hoopa should be banned only on psychic and not on dark. Here are my reasons why:

Psychic is already an extremely versatile type with a whole variety of viable mons that put in work on the metagame. It has stuff like, for example, Victini, Mega Voir, Slowbro, to list a few. With the adition of Hoopa-U on psychic they have even MORE power and dominate more of the metagame because now the win loss ratio between psychic and ghost will increase because ghost has virtually no Hyperspace Fury switch in. Calcs: (Note: adjusted Hoopa's stats to 160 base atk and made 'hyper beam' dark type with 100 base power and physical because hoopa u isn't in calc yet)

0 Atk Hoopa Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery | Ghost's only dark resist, pre mega, uninvested hoopa.
252 Atk Hoopa Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These calcs show that Ghost type needs to have their Mega Sableye mega'd to counter this at all and it barely does counter it. Other mons like Gardevoir Mega and Victini can also beat Sableye which is your only Hoopa switch in in the first place. Ghost has no switch ins to Hoopa. (Think of talonflame ban sort of)

As for dark, Hoopa-U can sort of be seen as the 'greninja compensation' as ninja was banned on dark a while ago. It can be seen this way because while it does have amazing special attack it is not nearly as good as greninja was by far. Ninja had access to fast base speed and a wide movepool plus Protean. Hoopa just has a strong special attack stat but it is very slow and frail in defense forcing most dark users to scarf it so it can put in work against dark's weaknesses.

tl;dr: Psychic is already borked. Hoopa U makes it way better, though. Hoopa U gives good special attack presence on dark. Keep dark, ban psychic. :]

 

[ed wins]

going a bit off topic here but lgi. (were just waiting for alt suspect to end anyways :d)

Hello~ I'm writing this for Hoopa-U because there has been recent talk about it being overpowered. To put it bluntly, I think hoopa should be banned only on psychic and not on dark. Here are my reasons why:

Psychic is already an extremely versatile type with a whole variety of viable mons that put in work on the metagame. It has stuff like, for example, Victini, Mega Voir, Slowbro, to list a few. With the adition of Hoopa-U on psychic they have even MORE power and dominate more of the metagame because now the win loss ratio between psychic and ghost will increase because ghost has virtually no Hyperspace Fury switch in. Calcs: (Note: adjusted Hoopa's stats to 160 base atk and made 'hyper beam' dark type with 100 base power and physical because hoopa u isn't in calc yet)

0 Atk Hoopa Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery | Ghost's only dark resist, pre mega, uninvested hoopa.
252 Atk Hoopa Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These calcs show that Ghost type needs to have their Mega Sableye mega'd to counter this at all and it barely does counter it. Other mons like Gardevoir Mega and Victini can also beat Sableye which is your only Hoopa switch in in the first place. Ghost has no switch ins to Hoopa. (Think of talonflame ban sort of)

As for dark, Hoopa-U can sort of be seen as the 'greninja compensation' as ninja was banned on dark a while ago. It can be seen this way because while it does have amazing special attack it is not nearly as good as greninja was by far. Ninja had access to fast base speed and a wide movepool plus Protean. Hoopa just has a strong special attack stat but it is very slow and frail in defense forcing most dark users to scarf it so it can put in work against dark's weaknesses.

tl;dr: Psychic is already borked. Hoopa U makes it way better, though. Hoopa U gives good special attack presence on dark. Keep dark, ban psychic. :]

Honestly, I felt that the status of Hoppa-U would come under discussion sooner rather than later. While i have not yet formulated a solid opinion on the status of Hoopa, one does not question the status of a single mon due to the inability of one type to have solid switch ins. What switches into Terrakion on Ice? What switches into Scizor on Fairy? What switches onto Honckrow on Steel? What switches into Hydreigon on Psychic? The list is endless, TBH

While I do agree that the offensive stats of Hoopa are insane and that Psychic can indefinitely make better use of it than Dark, I have yet to see what neutral matchups to Psychic have now become unbalanced due to the use of Hoopa. I can see Psychic v Psychic being a drag, but it's no different than Heatran in Steel v Steel. Drain Punch would not validate a greater matchup versus Dark, as Mandibuzz does an excellent job of walling Hoopa sets. Hoopa can run Thunderbolt, but that leaves Tyranitar as a pivot


Tl;dr 6-0ing one type does not meet the requisites for a ban on our tiering philosophy

Edit: as far as nerfing a good type that isn't broken just for the sake of nerfing it brings us back to the whole "ban Genesect/Pinsir on Bug because Bug's usage is too high."

 

[lax]

Honestly, I felt that the status of Hoppa-U would come under discussion sooner rather than later. While i have not yet formulated a solid opinion on the status of Hoopa, one does not question the status of a single mon due to the inability of one type to have solid switch ins. What switches into Terrakion on Ice? What switches into Scizor on Fairy? What switches onto Honckrow on Steel? What switches into Hydreigon on Psychic? The list is endless, TBH

While I do agree that the offensive stats of Hoopa are insane and that Psychic can indefinitely make better use of it than Dark, I have yet to see what neutral matchups to Psychic have now become unbalanced due to the use of Hoopa. I can see Psychic v Psychic being a drag, but it's no different than Heatran in Steel v Steel. Drain Punch would not validate a greater matchup versus Dark, as Mandibuzz does an excellent job of walling Hoopa sets. Hoopa can run Thunderbolt, but that leaves Tyranitar as a pivot


Tl;dr 6-0ing one type does not meet the requisites for a ban on our tiering philosophy

Edit: as far as nerfing a good type that isn't broken just for the sake of nerfing it brings us back to the whole "ban Genesect/Pinsir on Bug because Bug's usage is too high."

nah lol the thing is Psychic is already a strong as hell type and you can't use that kind of logic because think about talonflame being banned. Ice is also just a frail type in general that doesn't really have any chance against fighting spam but nothing can be done about that so it's invalid.

I can also provide counters to you.

Assault vest Gallade comes in on a Hydreigon, Gardevoir can even somewhat as well. They can also ohko in return but on ghost and psychic monotypes, what comes in on a hoopa and can fight back? Nothing, really. Max defense klefki comes in on a scizor and can reflect and then go to flamethrower toge/clef and azumarill. Fairy has 0 steel switch ins regardless idk what you're trying to prove, that's more like a type not a "one mon" issue. Honchkrow isn't common at all frankly, and can be played around. (Going to skarm on super power then tran, etc. Mind games fren.) Most types have some sort of way to revenge kill the threat but ghost has nothing for Hoopa-U.

 

[Josh]

What switches into kyu-b, at all? Nothing. What switches into an unrevealed pre-mega zard? Nothing. Half of the types can't switch into half of the offesnive S mons in the meta. There's things that have no switchins, that doesn't make them broken. Hoopa-u is far from broken, it's simply an S rank extremely powerful wallbreaker. Literally every type easily can outspeed and OHKO revenge it, and a lot of types can tank 1 hit and OHKO back on the physical side as well. Hoopa-u is not broken, it's just good. I challenge anyone to name 3 types hoopa-u flat out destroys, which is the first thing you need to suspect it.
As a PS, I don't use hoopa-u on my psychic team and neither do the majority of psychic players I know, because it isn't the god people acclaim it to be.

 

[1 True Lycan]

going a bit off topic here but lgi. (were just waiting for alt suspect to end anyways :d)

Hello~ I'm writing this for Hoopa-U because there has been recent talk about it being overpowered. To put it bluntly, I think hoopa should be banned only on psychic and not on dark. Here are my reasons why:

Psychic is already an extremely versatile type with a whole variety of viable mons that put in work on the metagame. It has stuff like, for example, Victini, Mega Voir, Slowbro, to list a few. With the adition of Hoopa-U on psychic they have even MORE power and dominate more of the metagame because now the win loss ratio between psychic and ghost will increase because ghost has virtually no Hyperspace Fury switch in. Calcs: (Note: adjusted Hoopa's stats to 160 base atk and made 'hyper beam' dark type with 100 base power and physical because hoopa u isn't in calc yet)

0 Atk Hoopa Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery | Ghost's only dark resist, pre mega, uninvested hoopa.
252 Atk Hoopa Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These calcs show that Ghost type needs to have their Mega Sableye mega'd to counter this at all and it barely does counter it. Other mons like Gardevoir Mega and Victini can also beat Sableye which is your only Hoopa switch in in the first place. Ghost has no switch ins to Hoopa. (Think of talonflame ban sort of)

As for dark, Hoopa-U can sort of be seen as the 'greninja compensation' as ninja was banned on dark a while ago. It can be seen this way because while it does have amazing special attack it is not nearly as good as greninja was by far. Ninja had access to fast base speed and a wide movepool plus Protean. Hoopa just has a strong special attack stat but it is very slow and frail in defense forcing most dark users to scarf it so it can put in work against dark's weaknesses.

tl;dr: Psychic is already borked. Hoopa U makes it way better, though. Hoopa U gives good special attack presence on dark. Keep dark, ban psychic. :]

Your main reason for banning hoopa on psychic is that ghost has no switchins to it. It will still have no switchins even on dark so idk what the difference is. Mega Sableye is one of the only weapons ghost has against dark, and giving dark another pokemon which breaks it isn't really fair imo. Dark doesn't really need hoopa since it has a decent usage of 6.04% at the moment and will most likely rise after the expected altaria ban.

 

[Kammi]

Dark only achieved this 6% usage after Hoopa Unbound was released, and the 'mon currently has a usage over 50% on the type so please check on the change in the type after Hoopa release before you say Dark doesn't need it. Usage of Dark can also expect to drop because of Bug spam / people only used the type last month to try out Hoopa, so that probably balances out any Mega Altaria issues. I will say I agree more with Laxuy in the fact that Dark needs this pokemon more than Psychic does for sure, but since both types have good support for it I have no idea where it will go. As for the Ghost argument, yes, Hoopa destroys Ghost but the main difference is that Ghost is technically supposed to win against Psychic (Meloetta had a pretty good fight going there, now if I see Hoopa U and Meloetta on the same team I may as well click X) and lose against Dark (this matchup had me clicking X way before Hoopa was a thing). Right now leaning towards suspect, since I've seen this 'mon in the hands of good players and it's frightening how much damage it can do to a team before you can safely pull your check into the battle- its stallbreaking power is tremendous. For now, though, I think other bigger problems should be discussed before we try to prematurely ban a 'mon that hasn't even been around for a month yet.

EDIT: As for Joshz I think Laxuy's main argument is more for keeping Hoopa on Dark. As an example, you said you don't use it on Psychic because it isn't the god people claim it to be... well, Dark users don't really have that luxury. Psychic has a ton of mons to choose from and yeah, in certain teams there are probably better options than Hoopa U for wallbreakers. On Dark, there is no real other mon that does Hoopa's same job nearly as well, so I would consider keeping it for this type only if anything. (Also, "destroying three types" isn't the first thing out of multiple you need to suspect a mon, it's just the first listed.)

 

[lax]

What switches into kyu-b, at all? Nothing. What switches into an unrevealed pre-mega zard? Nothing. Half of the types can't switch into half of the offesnive S mons in the meta. There's things that have no switchins, that doesn't make them broken. Hoopa-u is far from broken, it's simply an S rank extremely powerful wallbreaker. Literally every type easily can outspeed and OHKO revenge it, and a lot of types can tank 1 hit and OHKO back on the physical side as well. Hoopa-u is not broken, it's just good. I challenge anyone to name 3 types hoopa-u flat out destroys, which is the first thing you need to suspect it.
As a PS, I don't use hoopa-u on my psychic team and neither do the majority of psychic players I know, because it isn't the god people acclaim it to be.

I can actually provide 2 or more kind of "semi" examples of types hoopa fucks up. Psychic vs Psychic Psychic vs Ghost and stuff like scarf hoopa u (edit: and other hoopa sets) also puts in tons of work vs steel, fighting, poison, and electric as well has 0 switch ins.

Your main reason for banning hoopa on psychic is that ghost has no switchins to it. It will still have no switchins even on dark so idk what the difference is. Mega Sableye is one of the only weapons ghost has against dark, and giving dark another pokemon which breaks it isn't really fair imo. Dark doesn't really need hoopa since it has a decent usage of 6.04% at the moment and will most likely rise after the expected altaria ban.

I agree that Mega Sableye also needs a suspect on dark, not ghost. Talking about Hoopa U atm.

 

[Acast]

I can actually provide 2 or more kind of "semi" examples of types hoopa fucks up. Psychic vs Psychic Psychic vs Ghost and stuff like scarf hoopa u (edit: and other hoopa sets) also puts in tons of work vs steel, fighting, poison, and electric as well has 0 switch ins.

I agree that Mega Sableye also needs a suspect on dark, not ghost. Talking about Hoopa U atm.

Psychic teams almost always have Victini, which usually runs Scarf U-turn. No Hoopa can outspeed that and survive as far as I know, and if it switches out to avoid getting OHKOd, the Victini user just used U-turn anyway, so they can switch to a counter without losing any momentum. Because of that, I disagree that Hoopa-U auto wins against Psychic. I still think it should be suspected eventually, but I'm not sure it should be a top priority.

 

[lax]

Psychic teams almost always have Victini, which usually runs Scarf U-turn. No Hoopa can outspeed that and survive as far as I know, and if it switches out to avoid getting OHKOd, the Victini user just used U-turn anyway, so they can switch to a counter without losing any momentum. Because of that, I disagree that Hoopa-U auto wins against Psychic. I still think it should be suspected eventually, but I'm not sure it should be a top priority.

Uhh psychic had 0 switch ins and slowbro for victini who cares for momentum on psy vs psy virtually everything is able to switch in EXCEPT for hoop.

 

[ed wins]

Can someone explain to me how Hoopa on Psychic v Psychic is any different than Heatran on Steel v Steel?

Psychic user #1 brings in Hoopa and gets a kill

Psychic user #2 U-Turns Victini/Jirachi onto Hoopa and gets a kill

Psychic user #1 U-Turns into Hoopa and gets a kill

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Hi my name is Wyv and just this morning i went into my bathroom and saw cockroaches everywhere..that's when I realized these weren't cockroaches but genesects, and nomatter how much we all hate it and try to get rid of it, no matter how much fire type moves you put on that team and the amount of hours you spent spamming kaiser for one of his god forsaken teams..it all went to waste. Because that was the day when your so called op pokemon skills utterly failed your generic pokemon ass, and your heatran that you copy and pasted that morning...was lying on the ground..ohko'd by a techno blast mofoin extinct cockroach. This was the day when you went on the forums..but nobody heard your plea as they focused on getting rid of mother fucking birds, before you know it in your casual stroll up the ladder you find yourself fighting genesect after genesect, bug after bug and before you know it you discover yourself in a horrifying situation...your.gyarados.is.ded and when you looked around just to see rocks floating around you and the pest from the past is killing all your pokes. Now your running back down ladder street seeing bugs..more bugs than birds, omg there are mother fucking bugs everywhere. Now you are at your desk in the monotype room finding ways to stop it, searching far and low for pokemon to use..but that's when you realize..this pokemon can run band, specs, life orb, scarf, and even set up with over 15 viable moves to use...you quickly run to the forum to discover that mega altaria is about to be banned, such an event would only make bug more used to counter the upccoming usage spring of dark, this would make the bugs around you go to dangerously high levels! Not even pesticide would work as poor grass users discover that a type that beats them 70% of the time is about to emerge in more forces than ever before...you run to the forums to make 1 last plea, another calc! Anything at all..but not 1 word was read as the monotype staff skips over to the next post.

 

[Fractions.]

Hi my name is Wyv and just this morning i went into my bathroom and saw cockroaches everywhere..that's when I realized these weren't cockroaches but genesects, and nomatter how much we all hate it and try to get rid of it, no matter how much fire type moves you put on that team and the amount of hours you spent spamming kaiser for one of his god forsaken teams..it all went to waste. Because that was the day when your so called op pokemon skills went to waste, and your heatran that you copy and pasted that morning...was lying on the ground..ohko'd by a techno blast mofoin extinct cockroach. This was the day when you went on the forums..but nobody heard your plea as they focused on getting rid of mother fucking birds, before you know it in your casual stroll up the ladder you find yourself fighting genesect after genesect, bug after bug and before you know it you discover yourself in a horrifying situation...your.gyarados.is.ded and when you looked around just to see rocks floating around you and the pest from the past is killing all your pokes. Now your running back down ladder street seeing bugs..more bugs than birds, omg there are mother fucking bugs everywhere. Now you are at your desk in the monotype room finding ways to stop it, searching far and low for pokemon to use..but that's when you realize..this pokemon can run band, specs, life orb, scarf, and even set up with over 15 viable moves to use...you quickly run to the forum to discover that mega altaria is about to be banned, such an event would only make bug more used to counter the upccoming usage spring of dark, this would make the bugs around you go to dangerously high levels! Not even pesticide would work as poor grass users discover that a type that beats them 70% of the time is about to emerge in more forces than ever before...you run to the forums to make 1 last plea, another calc! Anything at all..but not 1 word was read as the monotype staff skips over to the next post.

Nice representation, but easy with the language please. Try to give quantitave reasons to ban Genesect, this post can' t get you anywhere

 

[ed wins]

The funny thing is that in these paste two nights, I've played or watched (mostly played) about thirty high ladder games, and can guarantee you that I did not come across a single Bug team in all of those games. :/

 

[SaNeski]

/me comes out of hiding.

D-did someone call for a genesect ban? Is the moment here?

I have "ban genesect" on my highlights, waiting for the day the movement would start. I would have liked to start it myself a long time ago but my buddy, PK-Kaiser, pointed out that I lack knowledge of the meta and don't have the numbers or facts to support it.... blah blah .... but i see bug has maintained the highest usage stats for 2 months in a row, and now peaking highest in % usage, dating as far back as march. Maybe 1 or 2 people are also starting to realize that the Mega pinsir + Genesect duo combo shits on a lot of teams ... maybe not.

In summary, all i'm asking for is that the community or those who speak the proper forum lingo, take a look at the (genesect and mega pinsir) duo.

 

[sand1234]

k what would our next suspect be?
hoopa u or zard x or gene or m pins.

 

[1 True Lycan]

The council originally voted for Zard X so I would assume that it is the next suspect. However there has been a lot of hate towards bug so i guess that is also possible. I don't think hoopa u should be suspected until the above issues have been dealt with.

 

[Isza]

/me comes out of hiding.

D-did someone call for a genesect ban? Is the moment here?

I have "ban genesect" on my highlights, waiting for the day the movement would start. I would have liked to start it myself a long time ago but my buddy, PK-Kaiser, pointed out that I lack knowledge of the meta and don't have the numbers or facts to support it.... blah blah .... but i see bug has maintained the highest usage stats for 2 months in a row, and now peaking highest in % usage, dating as far back as march. Maybe 1 or 2 people are also starting to realize that the Mega pinsir + Genesect duo combo shits on a lot of teams ... maybe not.

In summary, all i'm asking for is that the community or those who speak the proper forum lingo, take a look at the (genesect and mega pinsir) duo.

Well yea, when you act really sarcastic in various posts about certain situations without backing your argument up with facts, people are going to assume you know nothing lol, try avoiding that again.

 

[Bushtush]

I do believe Zard X should be suspected first as it was voted the next suspect. Looking at it from any perspective, this isn't bugs first time having highest usage. Its dominated the meta for quite a while (even if it wasn't #1). However, the meta has learned to deal with this. Teams have been shaped around to deal with Gene and Mega Pinsir, and is continually adjusting. That's why i think Zard X needs to be suspected first, as its continually a dominating force. And while it has been for a long time, many teams still have tremendous trouble dealing with it.