np: UU - The Brave and the Bold (Nominations) (TOO LATE)

[iLL]

Offensive Characteristic

Staraptor

Base Stats: 85 / 120 / 70 / 50 / 50 / 100
Intimidate: Lowers the foe's Attack 1 stage. Decreases wild encounter rate.

120 Base Attack and 100 Base Speed make it a very good physical sweeper. STAB from Return (102), and Brave Bird (120). Close Combat (120) prevents the use of Rock and Steel Pokemon to counter its two main STAB attacks. One out of two specialized options (other being Rotom) is a defensive Luxray! The fourth move is filler: U-turn, Pursuit, Roost. Intimidate is just an added bonus really. I'm not even counting its trait as one of the reasons I think Staraptor should be BL. Staraptor can simply tear teams apart without any setup. It makes a good lead, revenge killer, CBer, Scarfer, though I used a Rooster with Expert Belt. Having such a specialized counter to prevent a 2HKO is reason enough to make Staraptor BL.

Gallade

Base Stats : 68 / 125 / 65 / 65 / 115 / 80
Steadfast: When this Pokémon is flinched, its Speed is boosted one stage.

Notable moves:
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch/Night Slash/Psycho Cut/Stone Edge/Thunder Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

"Gallade is slow." 80 Spe isn't that bad in UU. 125 Att with a very wide array of moves to choose from can wreck teams apart. Add in a Swords Dance and its ready to really sweep a team. It has decent bulk, meaning you can switch into special attacks and get in a free Swords Dance. Shadow Sneak gives it a possible priority move, which is always nice. Switching to a counter against Gallade is risky. Predict wrong and it may get a free Swords Dance or you lose a Pokemon. Its not the same as the other glass cannon SDers in UU. Its power to sweep and semi-bulkyness make it BL.

Raikou

Base Stats: 90 / 85 / 75 / 115 / 100 / 115
Pressure: Enemy attacks lose 1 extra PP. Increases wild encounter rate.

Raikou's 115 SpA make it a really good special sweeper. Also, because of its base 115 Spe it out speeds quite a bit in UU. It really only needs 1-2 Calm Minds to set up and start sweeping. Getting a Sub up is pretty easy. LO/Specs variations hit hard and are easier to pull off than Calm Mind sets, but the ones with Shuca berries gave me the most difficulties. Its defenses are pretty good, too. So, I think Raikou should be BL because of its high Special Attack paired with high Speed, and its durability.

Typhlosion

Base Stats: 78 / 84 / 78 / 109 / 85 / 100
Blaze: Boosts power of Fire moves 50% when at 1/3 HP or less.

Every Typhlosion you see is pretty the same: Choice Specs and Eruption. It's predictable, but its still hard to deal with. It hits hard, even to bulky Water Pokemon. Eruption's base power is based on its user's remaining HP. So the closer Typhlosion's HP is to 100%, the more damage it does with Eruption.

So you'd assume to lessen the threat, it might help to lay some Spikes or Stealth Rock. However, most Trainers would pair it with a Rapid Spinner and send out Tyhplosion when its safe. I think Tyhplosion is best used early in the match, especially when there's no layers of Spikes or Stealth Rock to hinder Eruption's power. It can really give you the advantage early in the match by sweeping a number of Pokemon.

When Tyhplosion's HP does go down, you can't forget about Blaze and Overheat. That's 140 + Blaze (x1.5) + STAB (x1.5) = 280 Base Power. It can be then used in a hit-and-run strategy. Then, there's Sunny Day which makes Typhlosion an ever more offensive beast.

You could counter with Pokemon with the Flash Fire ability. Arcanine usually comes with Intimidate, so you got Ninetales, Rapidash, and Houndoom. Typhlosion requires not set up at all. It comes in and devestates a team. I think its power and simplicity makes it BL.

Offensive Characteristic/Defensive Characteristic

Shaymin

Base Stats: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100
Natural Cure: Cures status on switching out.

Notable Moves:
- Seed Flare/Seed Bomb
- Air Slash/Earth Power/Hidden Power [Fire/Ice]/Swords Dance
- Leech Seed
- Rest

I don't see Shaymin as a big offensive threat. Seed Flare doesn't need a lot, if any, of EVs in SpA to be effective. However, it only has a 85% chance to hit, 40% chance to lower SpD by 2 stages, and 8 PP. Very deadly nontheless, if it hits. Seed Bomb/SD and a Specs set is alright. My main beef with Shaymin is its ability to Rest/Natural Cure. Meaning, you'll be seeing it again and again at full health. If it wants it can Leech Seed, Rest, run, and repeat. Roserade can do the same thing and other Pokemon can Rest/Natural Cure (Altaria, Chansey and Corsola), but Shaymin's base 100 stats accross the board make it very bulky, and the fastest. I think Shaymin should be BL because of its 100 base stats and of what it can do.

Milotic

Base Stats: 95 / 60 / 79 / 100 / 125 / 81
Marvel Scale: Boosts Defense 50% when hit by a status move.

Notable Moves:
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Hidden Power [Electric]
- Hypnosis/Toxic/Sleep Talk
- Recover/Rest

A Surf/Ice Beam combination can be easily walled by Water Pokemon. However, an offensive oriented Milotic with Hidden Power [Electric] and invested EVs into SpA can be unexpected and effective. To add to its arsenal, it can also inflict status. It can use Hypnosis to put threats to sleep and switch to a counter/sweeper, or it can use Toxic on defensive walls and stall with Recover.

It already has a high SpD; and with Marvel Scale, potentially more Def. Its trait also allows you to switch in and absorb status moves, like Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp. It can regain HP with Leftovers and Recover; and is capable of Rest-Talk, which works nicely with its trait.

Its stats make it a tank, and a very good choice for a bulky Water Pokemon in UU. Its not BL-material based on just its offense or defense. Its BL-material because of both: in UU its capable of sweeping and surviving for a long time.

Results
iLL: Typhlosion | Borderline Accepting, vague but I get the gist. Remaining | far too vague (1 nom).

Double Checking:

Typhlosion - Borderline - We get the statement about the power and how easily it can be used - and that fits the OC well. HOWEVER I feel as if you could have backed it up. Also, considering Rapid Spin is a rather difficult move to pull off nowadays (at least in OU!) I don't think that part of your argument is valid but you do clarify.

 

[kd24]

I nth the Nomination on Staraptor.

Staraptor basically disrupts the metagame, and perfectly fits under the Offensive Characteristics for BL. Almost no Pokemon besides Rotom, Luxray and Steelix can counter Staraptor, and Luxray still takes a whole lot of damage from Choice Band Return. Staraptor can come in on will with Intimidate, Ground immune, and a bulky HP score. He can immediately force you to switch out and if you are lucky enough to have something that isn't OHKOed by CB Return, it will be 2HKOed unless it is one of the centralized counters.


Results
KD24: Staraptor | Borderline Rejecting, too vague & nonspecific. (0 noms).

 

[Evil Hamster]

I'm going to nominate Shaymin as a suspect. I've tried to be balanced and present both points of view in my post; I guess that could weaken my argument significantly but ultimately both sides need to be considered anyway.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

The Life Orb set, in my opinion, is probably the one that fits this definition the best.

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Seed Flare
~ Earth Power
~ Hidden Power Ice / Air Slash
~ Rest

Air Slash/Hidden Power Ice is basically a decision as to whether hitting Abomasnow or Crobat/Altaria is more important. Hidden Power Fire is a decent option I guess for Abomasnow, but Air Slash does plenty already, and even Seed Flare is a potential 2HKO against some variants. Meanwhile, the 30% flinch chance is probably more useful than the harder hit on Abomasnow.

In my experience, Life Orb Shaymin has probably been the most problematic set to face. Shaymin's pretty decent offensive movepool and acceptable speed allows it to hit the vast majority of the metagame for a 2HKO as it switches in. It certainly has plenty of opportunities to switch in; Shaymin can come in relatively easily on all sorts of dominant water-types such as Azumarill, Milotic and Slowbro, not fearing status attacks from the latter two thanks to Natural Cure. Even with 0/0 special defensive investment, Shaymin can still take a 236SpA Ice Beam very easily (39.88% - 47.51%) outspeed, force them out and Rest off any damage taken later.

Here is a list of the notable (subjective I know, please alert me if you feel I have missed any) Grass resistances (+ other potential switches into Shaymin for completeness' sake) in the UU tier.

#2 Registeel
#3 (Shaymin)
#4 Staraptor
#8 Roserade
#14 Crobat
#15 Blaziken
#21 Arcanine
#22 Drapion
#23 Abomasnow
#27 Chansey
#28 Typhlosion
#31 Houndoom
#32 Moltres
#35 Honchkrow
#37 Venusaur
#42 Toxicroak
#44 Magmortar
#54 Regice
#55 Altaria
#56 Weezing
#62 Charizard
#65 Scyther
#72 Pinsir
#75 Muk
#82 Exeggutor
#102 Articuno

One thing that this does show us which is important in considering whether Shaymin is a suspect is that Grass is still a decidedly poor offensive type, even in UU. Several of the very top-tier threats resist it, making it much harder for Shaymin to sweep with Seed Flare alone. With so many of these resists, Seed Flare's limited PP can, in theory, be worn out relatively quickly. However, despite Seed Flare's poor type coverage, it is obviously useful in taking out the popular bulky-water types such as the aforementioned Milotic, who can be a pain to break down otherwise, and Shaymin's offensive movepool is capable enough to take on many of these common Grass-resists anyway.

Out of these, some of them are so weak Special Defensively that they risk a 2HKO from a 299 SpA Seed Flare, taking Stealth Rock into account (no SpD drop taken into account) From this list, those that come under this category would be:

0/0 Arcanine: (39.44% - 46.58%) (93.29% with SR)
0/0 Blaziken: (47.02% - 55.63%) (100% with SR)
0/0 Charizard: (21.89% - 25.59%) (4.34% with SR)
0/0 Exeggutor: (45.32% - 53.47%) (100% with SR)
0/0 Honchkrow: (52.49% - 61.88%) (100%)
0/0 Houndoom: (43.64% - 51.55%) (100% with SR)
0/0 Magmortar: (38.14% - 45.02%) (100% with SR)
0/0 Pinsir: (52.40% - 61.99%) (100%)
0/0 Scyther: (22.42% - 26.69%) (26.89% with SR)
0/0 Staraptor: (58.84% - 69.45%) (100%)
0/0 Toxicroak: (48.86% - 57.65%) (100% with SR)
0/0 Typhlosion: (41.08% - 48.48%) (100% with SR)

Out of this list, Bold indicates a Speed Tie, whilst Bold Italics means they outspeed Timid Shaymin. It is also worth noting that:

~ Arcanine does (37.43% - 44.15%) with a Choice Banded ExtremeSpeed, the best it can do before it is finished off with Earth Power.
~ Honchkrow does (61.40% - 72.22%) with Choice Banded Sucker Punch, which may be useful against weakened variants. However, if it doesn't KO, Shaymin can simply Rest on the next go, as Honchkrow is locked in, allowing it to Rest freely and switch to something that can threaten Honchkrow more easily.
~ Toxicroak does (36.55% - 43.27%) with a Choice Banded Sucker Punch, but is easily 2HKOed whatever move it switches in on so won't win this unless Shaymin is already severely weakened. Can also be used to Rest freely.
~ Blaziken does (28.07% - 33.33%) with a Choice Specs Vacuum Wave. Useful only against weakened variants, as it is easily 2HKOed.

Otherwise, Charizard, Staraptor can switch in and force it out if they are prepared to risk the speed tie, however they will still lose out 50% of the time. Scyther is a safer option, but can still only switch in once unless it carries Roost, and even then has to be wary of switching into either Earth Power or Hidden Power Ice. Anything on this list can switch in once and force Life Orb Shaymin out if they are Scarfed, but it is still only one switch-in, and with Shaymin's competent defenses and Rest, chances are it will stay around long enough to dish out several hits.

This leaves the following Pokemon, whom are worth considering as 'checks' to Life Orb Shaymin. I will analyse these individually, as these are more complicated than the above.

#2 Registeel
#8 Roserade
#14 Crobat
#22 Drapion
#23 Abomasnow
#27 Chansey
#32 Moltres
#37 Venusaur
#54 Regice
#55 Altaria
#56 Weezing
#75 Muk
#102 Articuno

I will analyse these individually, as these are more complicated than the others.

Abomasnow.

Abomasnow's viability as a check to Life Orb Shaymin varies. If it carries Air Slash, then it cannot really serve as a check, as unless Abomasnow switches in on Rest, with Stealth Rock in play any move on the set followed by a Life Orb Air Slash will finish it off. However, against those variants that carry Hidden Power Ice, it is slightly more reliable. Despite this, 0/0 Abomasnow will still be 2HKOed by a Life Orb Seed Flare taking Stealth Rock and Leftovers into account roughly 65% of the time, so you will either need to Scarf your Abomasnow, EV it more defensively, or just keep Stealth Rock off the field if you intend to use Abomasnow as a check.

Altaria.

Whilst Altaria is rare, it does make an exceptionally good check to any Life Orb Shaymin that runs Air Slash over Hidden Power Ice. A Life Orb Seed Flare does negligible damage, and Air Slash doesn't do very much either, particularly against defensive variants. It can then set up on Shaymin with ease with Dragon Dance. Hidden Power Ice variants obviously win; a LO Hidden Power Ice does (x) against 252/252 +SpDef variants.

Articuno.

Articuno does get hampered significantly by Stealth Rock, but even with it in play a Calm 252/252 variant can survive two Seed Flares if there is no SpD drop, and threaten with Ice Beam. However, even these defensive ones cannot beat it as their Ice Beam does (59.82% - 70.97%) to 0/0 Shaymin, and the more common 252/0 variants that typically run some Speed and Special Attack have a good chance to be 2HKOed by Seed Flare with Stealth Rock in play.

Chansey.

Chansey is an excellent check to Life Orb Shaymin. It can always survive two easily even with Spikes/SR in play (assuming no SpD drop) and can survive three or even four Seed Flares depending on your EV spread. Because I haven't got any idea as to what the standard Chansey EV spread is, here's a few arbitrary calcs that should at least give you some sort of idea.

(21.02% - 24.86%) to 252/252 Chansey
(23.09% - 27.30%) to 0/252 Chansey
(28.98% - 34.23%) to 252/0 Chansey
(31.83% - 37.60%) to 0/0 Chansey

Bear in mind, however, that thanks to Natural Cure, Chansey can do next to nothing to Shaymin bar Seismic Toss it for the 4HKO (3HKO with LO recoil) meaning that if Shaymin gets a Special Defense drop, it will almost certainly win the matchup. However, if your team has something else that can come in on Seed Flares as well, Chansey can simply switch out, making this less of a problem as Seed Flare's 8 PP will quickly be worn out.

Crobat.

Crobat walls Shaymin silly if it lacks Hidden Power Ice, and being so common, it is the main reason why you should be using it over Air Slash. Bearing in mind that you have to predict Crobat coming in as it outspeeds Shaymin, takes next to nothing from Seed Flare and even less from Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice has a small chance (2.56%) to OHKO 0/0 Crobat with Stealth Rock in play. Crobat is certainly a very good check, but even one misprediction can be costly. It is also worth noting that Crobat is also being considered as a suspect, and if that is moved up, dealing with Shaymin will become considerably harder for many teams.

Drapion.

Drapion is, in all honesty, a relatively poor answer to Life Orb Shaymin. A Seed Flare does (26.74% - 31.40%) to 252/252 Careful Drapion, meaning that it is a 3HKO with Seed Flare + 2 Earth Powers, or a 2HKO if Seed Flare gets a SpD drop. Switching in on Earth Power will also guarantee the 2HKO. This would be OK if Drapion could do anything to Shaymin, but unboosted Crunches and Paybacks do very, very little, so a Drapion switching in will almost always lose the matchup.

Moltres.

Moltres is one of the more reliable checks to Shaymin, particularly if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field. Seed Flare does (15.93% - 18.80%) to the standard 248/0 stalling Moltres, and Air Slash does (26.63% - 31.33%), so there's no chance of a 2HKO even with Stealth Rock up. If Seed Flare gets a defense drop, then Shaymin wins, and if Moltres comes in with more than about 10% residual damage, it is bound to lose regardless. It is also interesting to note that if stall Moltres runs Flamethrower, it cannot OHKO Shaymin even after one turn of LO, and so will have to sacrifice itself to take down Shaymin. Scarf Moltres can act as a decent check to Life Orb Shaymin, though the lack of Roost means it can only switch in once when Stealth Rock is in play.

Muk.

Another decent check, though uncommon, a 252/176 +SpD Muk can survive two Earth Powers (39.13% - 46.38% each) and threaten with Poison Jab or Gunk Shot, though the former will not OHKO without a boost. More offensive variants are at more riskl, as they can potentially be 2HKOed by Earth Power, or a Seed Flare SpD drop and an Earth power. However, without Wish support or Rest, Muk will struggle to come in repeatedly without any form of recovery, as Shaymin, as previously noted, can stick around for some time with that impressive bulk and Natural Cure + Rest.

Regice.

Regice is very uncommon, but can check Shaymin to an extent. Life Orb Seed Flare does (28.85% - 34.07%) to 252/0 Calm Regice which is significant but survivable even with Stealth Rock in play. Bold Regice takes (32.14% - 37.91%) which is still only a 3HKO even with Leftovers. Lack of recovery stops it coming in repeatedly though.

Registeel.

Similar to Drapion, Registeel can take multiple hits from Shaymin, as Earth Power only does (36.26% - 42.86%) to a 252/200 Relaxed Registeel. However, it can do even less in return without Exploding, as unboosted Iron Heads and Ice Punches do next to nothing, making Registeel a poor switch.

Roserade.

Roserade is a pretty good switch; whilst it fears Air Slash and Hidden Power Ice (0/0 Roserade takes 60.54% - 72.03% from the latter) Seed Flares barely scratch it and Earth Power is only a 3HKO. Specially Defensive versions are even better; a Calm 252/252 variant takes only (35.19% - 41.98%) from a Hidden Power Ice, though in return cannot always threaten to OHKO Shaymin with Sludge Bomb, which does (69.21% - 81.52%)

Venusaur.

Venusaur is very similar to Roserade with regards to switching into Shaymin, though it is somewhat rarer. Against specially defensive variants (252/252 Calm) an Air Slash only manages (35.16% - 41.76%) and Seed Flare barely touches it. However, if Venusaur switches into Air Slash and Stealth Rock, it will probably lose, as Sludge Bomb only manages (56.89% - 67.45%) meaning that Shaymin can 3HKO first. Otherwise, it is a very effective check. Offensive Venusaur still makes a good switch, particularly Scarfers that can outspeed and avoid a second hit from Air Slash or Hidden Power Ice, but it does take a much more noticeable (59.14% - 69.77%) when running no defensive investment.

Weezing.

Weezing is a very poor switch into Shaymin; it can do very little in return unless it carries the rare Sludge Bomb (which only manages around 55%) whilst Shaymin can deal a very significant (42.51% - 50.30%) with Seed Flare to a 252/0 Weezing. Natural Cure allows it to get rid of Will-o-Wisps, which don't really hurt it even before Natural Cure eliminates it completely.

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In conclusion, there is very little that can reliably come in on a Seed Flare and proceed to beat Life Orb Shaymin wone on one; these are pretty much limited to Roserade, Venusaur, Muk, Regice, Crobat and Chansey, and three of these will lose if they are outpredicted and come in on a Hidden Power Ice, whilst Muk can lose if it switches in on Earth Power or a Seed Flare that gets a Special Defense drop. This would not be so much of a problem if Shaymin was a glass cannon, but as I have alluded to several times throughout this post, it has great bulk, a few useful resists and semi-reliable healing which means it can generally stick around for a long time, enough to cause plenty of damage in the process. In this time, it is bound to predict correctly once, making Life Orb Shaymin devastating, a potential candidate for the 'offensive BL definition' and, in my opinion, the most difficult Pokemon to face in the new UU tier.

Results
EvilHamster: Shaymin | Accepting. (1 nom)

Double Checking:

Shaymin - Accepted.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Might add more suspects later, but for now I'll start with Abomasnow. Hail is the more common of the two permanent weather conditions. With things like stallrein and frosslass getting huge boosts of this, I feel this thing fits under the support definition. First, wallrein is incredibly hard to take down, and makes hail-stall very hard to beat. The combination of sub+protect means its hard to get a hit on it when it comes in on something that can't do anything to it. Couple this with the recovery not just from leftovers, but from ice body as well and this is pretty much how the sequence of events unfolds.

1. Walrein comes in on something that can't do anything to it without setting up (obviously only as long as it didn't get a set up yet) and on its first turn uses substitute as they switch to something that can harm you. You regain 1/8 of your health.
2. Walrein uses protect on the new Pokemon thats attempting to kill it, regaining another 1/8 of its health.

This process continues until the opponent is worn down. Since not much is slower than walrein that poses a threat, he can sub right after they break it with their attack. Coupling this with Hail, and in most cases toxic spikes or toxic and the other entry hazards, its really easy to wear down opponents.

Frosslass doesn't become incredibly hard to take out, just a lot more annoying. Snow cloak + Bright powder means even high accuracy moves have a good chance of missing. Again, coupling this with residual damage can quickly wear down teams.

Snover should also be considered, but I'm not sure either need to be banned, they just defiantly deserve to be voted on.

Results
Huntofthelion: Abomasnow | Borderline Accepting. Snover | Borderline rejecting, no explanation / detail. (1 nom).

Double Checking

Abomasnow - Rejected - Being annoying isn't a valid reason. This means Walrein is the only reason you want abomasnow banned - nothing about abomasnow itself really. Then why not argue... for Walrein?

 

[ToF]

I will probably start with a few Pokemon, and back up the decisions with calculations and such later.

Offensive Characteristic

Gallade

Everyone has mentioned basically everything about Gallade in-depth already, so I don't really need to reiterate the points already said. Gallade can massacre the UU tier with or without a Swords Dance. In conjunction with a fairly varied movepool, Gallade has multiple options that can ravage through many of the common walls of the metagame. Walls such as Milotic, Registeel, and Steelix, thought to dominate UU, fall to SD Gallade, who can simply set up and proceed to severely cripple the opponent. Not much else to say.

Staraptor

So what makes Staraptor so dangerous is that it is basically a speedier Gallade. With options such as Brave Bird, Close Combat, Return, and U-Turn, everything switch-in is taking heavy damage. One mispredict and you're basically out a Pokemon. Pretty similar reasoning to Gallade; although Staraptor's movepool isn't as large as Gallade's, the power coming behind Staraptor's STAB attacks is no joke.

Shaymin / Raikou

I decided to conjoin these rather than writing separate arguments because both play similarly. In regards to Shaymin, everything bar Registeel falls. Even Chansey has a slim chance of winning with Seed Flare's Special Defense drops. Registeel takes approximately 35% from an Earth Power, and with Rest/Natural Cure, Shamin is not losing anytime soon.

Raikou is very similar. I utilized a Specs Raikou during the early part of the UU ladder and it was simply stellar. The only "counter" I saw was Chansey, who took a hefty 40%. Add spikes support and you can basically sweep with ease. Although the Calm Mind set is a little more difficult to pull off, it is completely viable, especially with the amount of UU Pokemon Raikou can set-up on.

Defensive Characteristic

Walrein

Ok, so without hail, this isn't much of a suspect, but when hail is in effect, Stallrein can basically win matches single-handedly. It doesn't help that most of the Pokemon that can take it out (Shaymin, Crobat, Staraptor) are weak to Ice either. Once Walrein is safely behind a sub, it is extremely difficult to beat it. Stat-uppers will fall to a potential Toxic, or be Roared away. Even as a defensive suspect, no incoming Pokemon will like taking Blizzards + hail damage + possible Spikes/Stealth Rock Damage. No brainer really.

Registeel

So the only reason I am considering this a suspect is because I assume many of the offensive threats that kept Registeel in check will be banned. Without stuff like Gallade and Staraptor, Registeel can basically wall the metagame. Added to its superior defensive stats is the move Curse, further enhancing its defenses, playing similar to Cursepurt in OU. Without checks in UU to stop this, I feel it has to go.

Support Characteristic

Abomasnow

I assumed this was the best place to put Abomasnow. Easily the most broken type of team in new UU is hail, and Abomasnow is the cause. Setting up hail early game allows Pokemon like Stallrein and Froslass to abuse Hail. Abomasnow doesn't necessarily make it easier for other Pokemon to sweep, but rather stall. Sub + Protect on both Walrein and Froslass really abuse the hail, and the hail alone is enough IMO to warrent a test based on support.

Results

Twist of Fate: Gallade | Borderline Accepting, too vague but I get the gist & references. Staraptor | Rejected, no real reasoning giving. Shaymin / Raikou | Borderline Rejecting, reasoning is very "meh" and doesn't explain much besides its effects against so-called counters. Walrein | Borderline Accepting, wasn't sure with his comments about Abomasnow being a suspect etc. Registeel | Rejected, noms. can't be based on assumptions of future bans. Abomasnow | Borderline Rejecting, vague but I get the gist. (2 noms)

Double checking:

Gallade - Rejected - that's cool gallade can do that - but "so what"?
Walrein - Accepted - Short and Concise.

 

[chenman333]

I'm actually pretty okay with this Metagame except that I find hail teams a bit on the "eh" side. I find that a lot of the big offensive pokemon check each other out, with a bit of defensive help. These are a list of pokemon I deem likely to be bannable.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

I nominate Froslass as BL for it's ability to do exactly what it wants basically every single time. You see it. You know what is coming; some spikes and destiny bond. And yet, there is basically nothing you can do about it from getting at least one set of spikes up, or taking you down with it. The fact that it does exactly what it is meant to do basically every single time might as well be the definition of a Bl/Uber (sorta like those deoxys-e leads). And of course, those spikes, or taking down another pokemon, is invaluable for other pokemon to sweep or stall.

I nominate Abomasnow as BL because well, he is literally the ultimate supporting pokemon. To say he helps out other pokemon is an understatement. He is why pokemon like Froslass can become even more unbearable, and why something like Walrein is the ferocious defensive monster he actually is. Unlike in OU, hail teams are significantly more viable because the only other auto weather changer is Hippopotas, who simply can't be sent in with all the STAB Blizzards thrown around, and sunny day/rain dance are just as inefficient. Meanwhile, he can allow Froslass to support even better by surviving just a little more, and of course, he allows Walrein to completely stay like a beast. 1/8 of your each is 12.5%, and with leftovers 6.25% recover rate, Walrein can just keep on going with Sub+Protect, and with some toxic and SR/Spikes/toxic spikes with the hail, just ravages anything not named Clefable. All thanks to some auto hail.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Gallade
Gallade is indeed a physical monster. If he gets a free SD in, well, you are in some huge trouble, because something is probably going to die. And Gallade too easily gets that SD in. And if he isn't SD and is say, CB or CS, well, you just got a nasty surprise. Even when he just spams Close Combat, if you don't bring in an immunity or a 4x resist, it is going to hurt badly. Easily the premier physical attacker. It is not difficult to sweep a team with Gallade because he is just so powerful, mostly thanks to his great neutral coverage and lack of SR weak. Other pokemon like Blaziken and Magmortar are quite powerful too, capable of 2hkoing just about anything, but the difference is that they need to predict around it, whereas Gallade can just smash straight through the team.

Staraptor
Staratpor likewise, can sweep through teams with ease. I don't think there is a single safe switch in, and all his attacks are completely deadly because they hit a lot neutral, and when they hit neutral, they hit very very hard. He is extremely fast too, and he doesn't even need boosts to do the killing he does. The SR weak is a pretty bad hamper, but the fact is that once he gets in, you had better watch out because if you predict wrong, you lose a pokemon.

Results
Chenman333: Froslass | Borderline Accepting, some fallacies but not major. Abomasnow | Accepted. Gallade | Accepted. Staraptor | Borderline Rejecting, not a lot of good reasoning there. (3 noms)

Double Checking:
Froslass: Rejected. Try applying that logic for BL to anything else and you'll see. Registeel does what it wants to do everytime - "counter" Raikou and set up SR. etc etc etc. It's not a good basis for you base your argument on.

Abomasnow: Borderline. So everything loses Lefties recovery. So what? If we accept the premises of your froslass argument though we can see why you would want it tested, hence "borderline".

Staraptor: Rejected. "no safe switchin" is not a valid argument by itself.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Alright, here i go with my nominations. I'm going to be pretty generous with the nominations though, as the more suspects the better IMO. Lets start with the offensive characteristic

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Staraptor: Lets start out with the obvious Staraptor. This scrappy bird boasts a powerful movepool, Intimidate, an amazing 120 ATK stat, and excellent base 100 speed. With a simple choice band set of Brave Bird/ Return/ Close Combat and U-turn or Quick attack, you can decimate the UU metagame, 2KO nearly everything there. So far the best counter is an extremely specialized Luxray, designed to specifically counter Staraptor. I think that shows just how much of a threat the bird is. Rotom, who resists all his common moves, is still 2KOd at worst by Brave Bird, making the possibility of switching it in not an option. Other common flying counters like Steelix, Registeel, and Golem have to fear Close Combat, as they are all mostly 2KOd without being able to do much back (esp. in registeel's case). So thus, I believe Staraptor is a frontrunner for BL status, as it can easily just spam Brave Bird and 2KO almost everything. And don't forget it can run Choice Scarf, LO Roost, and Bulky Roost quite efficiently.

Raikou: Raikou has occasionally been compared to the UU Garchomp, and while its not as severe, it can certainly obtain the same results as Garchomp. Raikou's SubCM set is feared for good reason, as it packs great 115/115 SpA and Speed, allowing it to outrun everything bar Swellow, Crobat, Sceptile, Electrode and random scarfers. And none of those bar Sceptile can switch in, and none of them will come out on top. Can also run a Specs set with its high speed, and more sets like an offensive CM and an LO set. It's movepool may be shallow, but its enough to sweep a large portion, and the fact that it sets up easily on weaker pokemon. It has some solid counters, Chansey and Steelix mainly,but if they arent present or eliminated say good ye to the win, unless you have a random scarfer that can ohko it.

Shaymin: What really makes Shaymin is it's great bulk, and great recovery. With rest and natural cure, it can easily heal up and switch out with its great 100/100/100 defences. Seed Flare is stupidly powerful, and even Chansey doesnt beat it usually. No "safe" switch beyond Crobat and possibly Registeel.

Gallade: While I dont personally have a weakness to Gallade, I know it can easily sweep a team. After a Swords Dance, Gallade simply rips through everything with CLose Combat/ Shadow Sneak and Ice Punch or Stone Edge. It's also not incredibly hard to get the SD in, as he has pretty high base SpD so it sets up on weaker, specially attacking walls like Clefable, Milotic and Venusaur. His best counter, Spiritomb, is 2KOd on average with Shadow Sneak, and nothing can switch in easily on a +2 Close Combat coming from 120 ATK. The only problem with Gallde seems to be his affinity for being revenge killed by his low speed, but Shadow Sneak can typically solve this issue.



Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Registeel: With its ridiculous defences, Registeel walls typically about a third of your team. Curse bolsters his defence even more, and makes him nearly inpenetrable. It doesnt usually have the ability to hurt you a bunch, but can still status, set up rocks, and explode. Also, with many of its top counters possible becoming BL, it will definitely wall out the UU metagame. It can be a physical, or special wall, and you have no hope of penetrating it with eaker, unboosted moves.

Milotic: The other pokemon I belive should stay OU. 95/87/125 is nothing to scoff at, and its definitely the best bulky water availiable. With Recover and rest with marvel scale at its disposal it just wont die, even if smacked by a super effective attack. With Toxic it can easily stall out all non-stat uppers and recover spam, and its even worse if it gets statused. Most UUers without a sky high attack statwon't be able to 2KO. Milotic can also be quite offensive, with Surf/Ice Beam/ HP Electric/ Recover it achieves a great combination of offensive and defensive.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Crobat: Crobat is THE lead of UU, and most likely the most used by a big margin. Its the best anti lead with taunt, and shuts down all other support leads. He can also pack a punch with Brave Bird, and take hits with Roost and its decent bulk. While Crobat may not be taking the metagame by storm with its power, I believe it shows a dangerous amount of overcentralisation. Youre either forced to use Crobat, or a scarfed pokemon, or you can't use a support lead because of the omnipresent threat of a Crobat lead.

Abamasnow: The reason I'm nominating Obama is simple: the auto hail. Auto hail is a dangerous weapon, propping up threats like Walrein, Froslass, and Glaceon who easily abuse Snow Cloak and the 100% accurate Blizzards. I think it fits the Support Characteristic to a tee, easily switching in on things like bulky waters or on a KO, and ALWAYS setting up weather, unless its the of chance a Golduck is out on the field (but Obama scares out Golduck anyways). It also fits because it can set up Walrein (AKA Stallrein), who can typically stall out atleast 32 turns with a Protect+Sub+ Ice Body combination, forcing you to take Hail damage and waste your PP. The reason I'm not nominating Walrein itself, is that I think the problem lies in Obama's ability to easily set up hail. Walrein without hail obviously isnt as much of a threat as with Hail. And the reason I'm not nominating Snover for BL status is that Snover would honestly be on a team to ONLY set up hail, and with it's large array of weaknesses and low defences, its not staying around too much. And Snover isnt even able to do something useful like Hippo Jr. (who can atleast set up SR), and would be eliminated from the game easily.

Results
Random Pizzaman: Staraptor | Accepting. Raikou | Borderline Accepting. Shaymin | Rejecting, far too vague. Gallade | Borderline Accepting, a bit too vague. Registeel | Borderline rejecting, questionable reasoning. Milotic | Rejected, factual inaccuracies & questionable reasoning. Crobat | Rejected, far too vague. Abomasnow | Borderline Rejecting, sketchy reasoning.(3 noms)

Double Checking:

Staraptor - Rejected - considering SR + BB Recoil etc etc etc I'm pretty sure your last statement is patently false. Yeah I'm being nitpicky - but you concentrate too much on the concept of counters.

Raikou - Borderline - I wish you supported your arguments a little better.

Gallade - Borderline - See Raikou: You covered the bases but didn't go past after that.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

Offensive Characteristic

Staraptor: Bread and butter pokemon. A simple scarf set is what makes this deadly. It's only respectable counter is Rotom which is still 2HKO'd on a switch in on defense oriented Rotoms. Staraptor is immune to 3 of it's popular attacks (Return/Close Combat/Quick Attack) and takes U-Turn and Pursuit nicely but Brave Bird will always 2HKO standard Spiritomb switch ins. The only respectable countered mentioned was Luxray with Intimidate and having to cripple it with Thunder Wave and strike back with electric attacks. In General, Staraptor has the ability to switch in on attakcs without double thinking, immunity to ghost attacks, ground types and paired with intimidate will have no problem switching in. Not to mention it is a great scout also. Although the only thing stopping this is when SR is in play.


Defensive Characteristic

Walrein: This is something to be considered when Abomasnow is being considered going to BL which I think is highly possible. The vast amount of Stall Teams is ridicolous in UU. Don't let the typing fool you, this wall is capable of annoying the opposing opponent and stall you to hell paired with Toxic. The ability to take hits while heal every now and then makes it hard to take down, it is almost impossible to take down once you take out things that will hit it super effectively. It is good for taking unboosted hits and protect + leftovers + ice body is an annoying combo which makes this thing hard to take down. Not to mention the fact it gets 100% Blizzard accuracy with hail paired with this thing and 95 base special attack is no joke. The occasional Roarein is also annoying for those that try to boost on it and attempt to take it down. An occasinal Curse set pops up at times which could be rather annoying. In general this thing is difficult to take down only with Hail is in play.

Support Characteristic

Crobat: I'm sure everyone thinks this is the ideal lead of UU. Hitting a whooping 90 base speed and tremendous bulk for a lead and access to taunt is scary. U-Turn is a great move to remove sashers, Brave Bird + Roost could be an annoyance at times. This is a great support lead and a support pokemon to handle most leads of UU and still be a threat late game. An occasional Hypnosis user comes at times which is still dangerous and don't be fooled with it physically, NastyBats are also a threat and could support the team nicely. In general with 130 base speed and the ability to switch in, it supports sweepers too much and this handles them nicely
​

Results
Crafty Veteran: Staraptor | Borderline rejected, rather vague no analysis. Walrein | Rejected, reasoning based on "x could be banned". Crobat | Rejected, no real reasoning given. (0 noms).

 

[AeroGP]

When I first started playing in Underused, I was skeptical about the idea that it may not need a banned tier at all. I quickly jumped on the bandwagon and pointed my finger at three suspects already analyzed in this thread: Shaymin, Raikou, and especially Crobat. That all changed after a few weeks of having actually played the tier myself. Shaymin and Raikou were considerable threats, but so were a lot of other pokemon. You could get swept by a CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet or a SwordSalac Feraligatr. You could get swept by a Scarfphlosion in the Sun or a SD Kabutops in the rain. You could get stalled to death by a Hail-backed Wallrein or maybe just a Shuckle with Toxic. The truth was, you could be defeated by something and not realize it was comming until it was too late to fight back. A Scarf Hitmonlee or Arcanine could come out of nowhere and plow you into the ground, a Trick Room-powered Rhydon could eat your STAB attacks for breakfast and nail you to the wall, or even an odd Gligar set could mark the advent of a +4/+4 Bibarel out for blood.

I feel that if we are to ban something, it should be those pokemon that - given the standards the staff has decided upon - don't merely support the team really efficiently or defeat a lot of pokemon but instead give your team an unfair or one-sided advantage that cannot reasonably be prepared for or played around. Almost no pokemon in Underused is capable of that, to my knowledge. Prediction is the victor against most threats (such as Staraptor and Raikou), and good battle tactics against others (like Gallade and Spiritomb). But most importantly, having a solid strategy and knowing how to execute it consistently is something I observed to be critical of a great team in the tier. With the right support moves and some critical thinking, you can always bridge the gap in power-level between you and your opponent, although a bad matchup will still be a bad matchup sometimes.

Now, I say almost no pokemon because there's one that comes to my attention as having the potential to break this solid rule on a continuous basis. I'm not sold on it, nevertheless, but If I had to ban a pokemon it would probably be Froslass, who would fall under the Support Characteristic of a ban-worthy pokemon. Snow Cloak is the culprit here; Froslass is a very solid pokemon on its own with decent attack, impressive speed, and a great utility movepool, but having access to a move that increases the chance of the opponent's response to it completely failing indiscrimately makes it more of a troublesome menace than it should be. As experienced players often mention, even a pokemon with no counters can be beaten with solid tactics, but due to Snow Cloak any response you have is susceptible to complete negation, leaving your opponent free to setup even more problems for you. It is not like a low accuracy move such as Hypnosis, where you're actively taking the risk of the move missing and getting hammered in return, because Snow Cloak is passive and therefore Froslass is allowed to use the same turn to do anything else it wants to while still getting the same benefit or even potentially reducing the disadvantages. (Not to mention the user cannot simply avoid breaking rules about luck by not using the ability, because it's Froslass' only ability)

Glaceon shares the same ability, but doesn't share the movepool or the offense-minded stats; it's more defense-minded, in my opinion, making it more reactive and sigificantly more susceptible to non-attack approaches. You may miss, and you'll definitely be painfull bruised for it, but you're very likely to get the chance to take it out, whereas Froslass' speed means you may not ever know if your attack would have missed or not because you might be KO'd or handicapped before then. So the difference is mostly that Froslass can come directly to you and begin its campaign of terror, whereas Glaceon has to wait for you to come to it and hope that it can still force out whatever you pick as a response. But if Snow Cloak alone makes the case suspect, then I would be open to throwing Glaceon in with Froslass for "good measure".

Counter-arguments include its reliablity on Hail, its mediocre and exploitable defensive stats, and only a handful of meaningful differences between missing an attack and getting fully paralyzed, frozen for one turn, infatuated, or hitting yourself from confusion. It goes without saying that if auto-Hail is banished, Snow Cloak loses all its power and Froslass fails to even skate the line between suspect and "really great pokemon". But that assumes Auto-Hail is the real problem with this ability, which is another issue entirely. The moment an attack actually lands a hit on Froslass, it's likely to OHKO, but in turn missing can mean getting OHKO'd back or perminently crippled - which I'll remind you would be due to forces completely outside of your control, that you have to gamble whenever you respond to it as long as Hail is out because nothing is unaffected, not even the pokemon that resist Hail. Lastly, ask yourself if a pokemon that has a random chance of making you infatuated with it for a turn is ban-worthy. Is having to dedicate a moveslot to the move Attract the quality that balances the effect out, and if so what do you have to say now about an ability that does nearly the same thing against aggressive tactics without requiring a moveslot?

Again, I'm not even sold on the idea entirely as it rests on the standards for luck we intend to carry from here on into the metagame. Still, this is what I am going to pick and it looks solid to me.

Results
AeroGP: Froslass | Very questionable reasoning. (0 noms).

 

[thechocolatebunny]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Im nominating this demon called Shaymin. Shaymin is a monster, it has 100base stats all around. The analysis says it has a small movepool. Crap. Shaymin has so many options, leech seed, seed flare, air slash, earth power, aromatherapy, good usage of hidden power, rest, and to back it up, its has the unbelievable abaility natural cure, this means that you cant just paralyze shaymin and say its done, it will just rest, get all its HP back, switch out and back in, and now your dealing with a full hp non-status shaymin. Hell, he can suprise the special walls and kill them with an SD seed bomb while poisons/grass are hit with zen headbutt. Seed Flare is absolutely absurd. It even allows shaymin to deal with chansey because after a spD drop seed flare 2hkos, also resorting to chansey means that mnismagius, gallade, and anything that can make 101 sub uses chansey as set up fodder. The other UU special wall, clefable, takes about 49-57% from LO 299 spA shaymin(there are from experience in my battle, not calcs, pretty sure they were standard 252 hp 152 spD calm). Its other attacking options, earth power and air slash allow shaymin to kill its other counters. These are venasaur, steels(registeel), and regice. Ok regice is weak to SR which shaymin is almost always used with meaning if you can force it to switch a couple tims shaymin will win. It also cant counter shaymin because shaymin will 3hko with seed flare after one SR while ice beam 2hkos, one seed flare when regice switches in, one seed flare after that while shaymin takes the first ice beam, and the 3rd seed flare before the 2nd ice beam, which is needed to kill shaymin, regice can either die or rest meaning that shaymin can rest and use regice as set up fodder. Remeber, if Regice cant switch in, it is not a counter by defintion. Regice has accomplished nothing spectacular against shaymin as a counter. Registeel the 2nd counter, is 3hkod by earth power but all registeel can do is explode, meaning the opposing team has just lost an amazing wall and can be swept/toxistalled much more easily. Registeel can always t-wave, oh wait there is natural cure so shaymin can rest or switch, either way he's fine, venasuar, the final counter excluding chansey who is mentioned above, has that massive spD, x4 grass resist, and neutrality to earth power, but can not counter effectively due to hax and the edition of platinum giving shaymin air slash, with SR 328spD/364hp venasaur is always 3hkod by air slash, but venasuar can sludge bomb shaymin right? yes, but sludge bomb is a 2hko on 342hp/236spD shaymin (LO sweeper), air slash also has that nifty 30% flinch rate meaning that theres I think a 60% chance that venasuar will not get the 2nd sludge bomb off, also if venasuar switches into earth power and SR, air slash becomes almost guaranteed 2hkod, to 3hko it needs minimum damage 3 times in a row, a .000216% chance whereas if it switches into a seedflare and get the spD drop airslash becomes a guaranteed 2hko. People, shaymins great usage of hax is why skymin was banned to ubers where it does fine, why shouldnt shaymin-L be banned to standard where it will likey be fine? Being able to kill your own counters allows you to sweep with ease. Venasuar, who I think is its best counter can only counter it 40-60% of the time, that 60% of not dropping spD seems high but if shaymin is not using seed flare venasuar dies 99.9992-100% of the time. There is a 60% chance venasuar gets one sludge bomb off on the seed flare scenario and it is still possibly 2hkod after switching into Seed flare and SR, also the scenario where shaymin uses only air slash, venasuar is resorting to revenge killing, it is not actually countering it, if it is countering shaymin in that case, there is a 30% chance shaymin remains at 70% hp due to Life Orb and a 100% chance shaymin beats venasuar barring critical hit.

Edit: I forgot about Crobat, probably a better counter than venasuar and even it can have a hard time switching into shaymin, if the shaymin user catches on he/she can either psychic/hp ice on the switch, + SR and crobat is dead or dies from brave bird recoil, psychic hits SE through roost

My analysis was mostly the Life Orb sweeper set, also remeber his awesome 328 speed

Results
Thechocolatebunny: Shaymin | Just listed calcs etc. no real analysis (0 noms)

 

[TUskate]

People have already mentioned Abomasnow, Staraptor, Shaymin and Raikou enough to get them tested some I'm just going to elaborate on what part of UU really have the most centrilization, support pokemon, more specifically those of the lead variety. I'll just discuss a few pokemon that I believe are really causing a kind of Cold War-like arms build up.

Crobat: This is the only lead I've ever used in UU, and that's because it's hands down the best lead out there, being able to shut down any set up. Electrode also fits this definition, but is pretty much useless beyond Taunt and doesn't really have the offensive capacity to do much else. On the other hand, Crobat's Brave Bird, coupled with it's excellent speed makes it a great revenge killer. The problem with a "perfect lead" like Crobat is that it doesn't make any sense not to use him. In half the battles I've fought I've either been pitted against a Crobat, or have faced something that Crobat always beats. Roserade (Non-scarf versions) for example are completely useless as a lead because it's completely shut down by Taunt. I'd be sad to see it go, but it truly is the perfect lead in UU.

Froslass: This one is pretty simple. It's the only pokemon that's got a speed stat of 100+ that can set up an entry hazzard. If you get rid of him no other 100+ Speed pokemon can put a some entry hazzard basically for free. Even though there would still be faster pokemon with Taunt, none of them could set up Spikes for it's team. Eliminating Froslass is important to balancing the metagame because after Crobat's gone it will undoubtably take it's place as UU's top lead, and we'll start seeing it in 1/2 of all battles fought.

After these two top leads are gone, the rest of the fast speed options is much more balanced. I'd imagine we'd start seeing a lot more of...

- Electrode (140 Speed) Taunt
- Floatzel (115 Speed) Taunt, Baton Pass
- Ambipom (115 Speed) Taunt
- Jumpluff (110 Speed) Sleep Powder, Stun Spore
- Lopunny (107 Speed) Magic Coat, Baton Pass
- Mismagius (105 Speed) Taunt
- Miltank (100 Speed) Stealth Rock

These then become the best "support leads" and none of these really stand out to me as being over centralizing. We already see a lot of Ambipom (even though it is retardedely walled by Steelix and Registeel), and Mismagius comes up often in more of a sweeper role, but never as a lead. Basically by sacrificing two pokemon we'd see a rise in usage in five different, seldomly used pokemon.

Once Crobat and Froslass are removed, then I believe we'll start seeing a lot more diversity in leads. Obviously we'll steal see plenty of Scarf users, but we may start seeing more non-Taunt leads, like Bulky pokemon such as Steelix and Claydol. So up with diversity, down with Crobat and Froslass.

Editing before the final count just to really touch on some of the bigger suspect threats...

Abomasnow & Snover - While playing with a rain team I generally would be able to come out on top just by virtue changing the weather. However, after further testing with non-rain themed teams (more specifically, teams without weather changing ability) I've found Hail to be absolutely broken. In ten or so battles against Hail teams I was haxed to death by Snow Cloak on Froslass and Glaceon in situations were I had the upper hand. The main point of this particular edit is to include Snover in the discussion. It's my firm belief that as long as Hail is in play, it is broken. So the truth about Snover is that even if he is killed in the first couple turns of the battle, Hail still persists unless you have a weather changer. I have come to this conclusion because in many of the battles I've fought against Hail teams, I've generally OHKO Abomasnow with a suprise scarf'd Hp Fire from Espeon, however my team still had huge problems getting by the opposing hail team. Hail is centralizing because it requires you to attempt to control the weather to not be severely disadvantaged throughout the battle.

Results
TUSkate: All | questionable reasons, poor support noms. (0 noms).

 

[Flash_gearz]

Ambipom (Support BL. And to a lesser extent, offensive)

115 base speed makes him one of the fastest pokemon in UU. Fake out bypasses everything faster then it, giving it a free hit. DOn't forget it has Stab, and technician on it, add on a life orb and you have something thats going to fake out for atleast 20% each time, then get out of there with a fast U-turn for another 20. Then comeback as a revenge killer.

Then because of lack of Stealth Rock leads(and very little stealth rocks in general from what I saw), this thing has a high chance of getting in 9 hit with life orb, before dieing.

Results
Flashgearz: Ambipom | Rejected. ( 0 noms).

 

[hsb39]

I'll probably add some more later, but for now:

Staraptor: Ability to 2HKO pretty much everything. Only counters are Defensive Rotom and Luxray, where Luxray still has a hard time with CB Return (or the odd Double Edge) and just having Rotom will cause a whole heap of over centralisation. SubRoost also makes countering it a complete pain, as it can hit behind the Sub, and doesn't have to be worried about being slowly worn down. Not to mention the incredible pain of U-Turn, packing quite a punch behind Band and it just can't be touched when Scarfed.

Gallade: Attacking power combined with the ability to take quite a few special hits. Basically LonelyNess' argument (and I don't think that that needs to be posted again). 2HKO's nearly everything except for the things that can't 2HKO it. Revenge killing will only make it switch out safely and come back later, due to the lack of Pursuit weakness.

Crobat: Amazingly good lead, that only really has troubles with Electrode and other Crobat (and Electrode only has that use and a slightly faster Taunt). Hypnosis for the risky makes you able to shut down a Pokemon first turn. Brave Bird gives it power and lets it be a revenge killer late game. Doesn't have troubles with Fake Out unlike every other lead. And of course the fast Taunt stops anything from setting up.

Shaymin: Powerful but more importantly bloody hard to beat while being powerful. Doesn't even have the coverage issues that it used to, and SubSeed combined with its power makes tanks like Chansey and Registeel squirm. The big thing that makes me want this Pokemon to be BL is Rest. It can just instantly get itself to full health, and switch out removing status, it's ridiculous, especially with its 100 base defenses.

Results
hsb39: All | Rejected. No good arguments presented (0 noms).

 

[Altair]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Staraptor: This thing is a beast. Just by running a simple CB set (Brave Bird/CC/Return/Quick Attack) it rampages through UU, 2HKOing everything in its path, which can be considered a "significant portion of the metagame". It also has base 100 speed to compliment that attack stat, decent defences which, along with featherdance, allow it to pull off a "Bulkyraptor" set decently, Roost, a reliable recovery move that works with Life Orb, and Intimidate, a simply invaluable trait.

Shaymin: Out of all the sweepers in UU, this fits the offensive characteristic the best IMO. It only has 2 concrete counters (Regice and Registeel) and the rest of UU has to hope it won't get the -2 Special Defense Drop or else it cannot hope to counter it unless it itself is faster and can KO. The trouble with that is that not many sweepers actually can KO because it's so bulky. 100/100/100 defences are very spectacular for a UU sweeper and it gets two semi-reliable recovery moves in Synthesis and Natural Cure Rest.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Abomasnow/Snover: Hail is the most broken thing in UU atm, and these two have a 100% chance of setting it up. Even though Hippopotas also can set up sandstorm, the pokemon that benefit from hail are far better. Take Walrein for example. No sandstorm abuser is at its caliber, because once its behind a sub, its nearly impossible to hit, unless you want to wait 32 turns. The closest thing sandstorm has to that is shuckle, which is very bulky but possible to kill. Another example is Froslass. It can set up spikes under the cover of Snow Cloak and Focus Sash, while the closest thing Sandstorm has to it is Cacturne, who has mediocre speed.

Snover is also here because it is the auto-hail itself is broken, not the actual poke. Although it may not have the ability to switch in that much, hail would still be broken in an Abomasnow-less metagame.

Results
Dragonite24: Staraptor | Rejecting, pretty sketchy imo. Shaymin | Borderline Rejecting, rather vague. Abomasnow / Snover | Borderline Rejected,poor reasoning . (0 noms).

 

[Colloquy]

Offensive Characteristic

Staraptor

Base Stats: 85 / 120 / 70 / 50 / 50 / 100
Intimidate: Lowers the foe's Attack 1 stage. Decreases wild encounter rate.

120 Base Attack and 100 Base Speed make it a very good physical sweeper. STAB from Return (102), and Brave Bird (120). Close Combat (120) prevents the use of Rock and Steel Pokemon to counter its two main STAB attacks. One out of two specialized options (other being Rotom) is a defensive Luxray! The fourth move is filler: U-turn, Pursuit, Roost. Intimidate is just an added bonus really. I'm not even counting its trait as one of the reasons I think Staraptor should be BL. Staraptor can simply tear teams apart without any setup. It makes a good lead, revenge killer, CBer, Scarfer, though I used a Rooster with Expert Belt. Having such a specialized counter to prevent a 2HKO is reason enough to make Staraptor BL.

Gallade

Base Stats : 68 / 125 / 65 / 65 / 115 / 80
Steadfast: When this Pokémon is flinched, its Speed is boosted one stage.

Notable moves:
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch/Night Slash/Psycho Cut/Stone Edge/Thunder Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

"Gallade is slow." 80 Spe isn't that bad in UU. 125 Att with a very wide array of moves to choose from can wreck teams apart. Add in a Swords Dance and its ready to really sweep a team. It has decent bulk, meaning you can switch into special attacks and get in a free Swords Dance. Shadow Sneak gives it a possible priority move, which is always nice. Switching to a counter against Gallade is risky. Predict wrong and it may get a free Swords Dance or you lose a Pokemon. Its not the same as the other glass cannon SDers in UU. Its power to sweep and semi-bulkyness make it BL.

Raikou

Base Stats: 90 / 85 / 75 / 115 / 100 / 115
Pressure: Enemy attacks lose 1 extra PP. Increases wild encounter rate.

Raikou's 115 SpA make it a really good special sweeper. Also, because of its base 115 Spe it out speeds quite a bit in UU. It really only needs 1-2 Calm Minds to set up and start sweeping. Getting a Sub up is pretty easy. LO/Specs variations hit hard and are easier to pull off than Calm Mind sets, but the ones with Shuca berries gave me the most difficulties. Its defenses are pretty good, too. So, I think Raikou should be BL because of its high Special Attack paired with high Speed, and its durability.

Typhlosion

Base Stats: 78 / 84 / 78 / 109 / 85 / 100
Blaze: Boosts power of Fire moves 50% when at 1/3 HP or less.

Every Typhlosion you see is pretty the same: Choice Specs and Eruption. It's predictable, but its still hard to deal with. It hits hard, even to bulky Water Pokemon. Eruption's base power is based on its user's remaining HP. So the closer Typhlosion's HP is to 100%, the more damage it does with Eruption.

So you'd assume to lessen the threat, it might help to lay some Spikes or Stealth Rock. However, most Trainers would pair it with a Rapid Spinner and send out Tyhplosion when its safe. I think Tyhplosion is best used early in the match, especially when there's no layers of Spikes or Stealth Rock to hinder Eruption's power. It can really give you the advantage early in the match by sweeping a number of Pokemon.

When Tyhplosion's HP does go down, you can't forget about Blaze and Overheat. That's 140 + Blaze (x1.5) + STAB (x1.5) = 280 Base Power. It can be then used in a hit-and-run strategy. Then, there's Sunny Day which makes Typhlosion an ever more offensive beast.

You could counter with Pokemon with the Flash Fire ability. Arcanine usually comes with Intimidate, so you got Ninetales, Rapidash, and Houndoom. Typhlosion requires not set up at all. It comes in and devestates a team. I think its power and simplicity makes it BL.

Offensive Characteristic/Defensive Characteristic

Shaymin

Base Stats: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100
Natural Cure: Cures status on switching out.

Notable Moves:
- Seed Flare/Seed Bomb
- Air Slash/Earth Power/Hidden Power [Fire/Ice]/Swords Dance
- Leech Seed
- Rest

I don't see Shaymin as a big offensive threat. Seed Flare doesn't need a lot, if any, of EVs in SpA to be effective. However, it only has a 85% chance to hit, 40% chance to lower SpD by 2 stages, and 8 PP. Very deadly nontheless, if it hits. Seed Bomb/SD and a Specs set is alright. My main beef with Shaymin is its ability to Rest/Natural Cure. Meaning, you'll be seeing it again and again at full health. If it wants it can Leech Seed, Rest, run, and repeat. Roserade can do the same thing and other Pokemon can Rest/Natural Cure (Altaria, Chansey and Corsola), but Shaymin's base 100 stats accross the board make it very bulky, and the fastest. I think Shaymin should be BL because of its 100 base stats and of what it can do.

Milotic

Base Stats: 95 / 60 / 79 / 100 / 125 / 81
Marvel Scale: Boosts Defense 50% when hit by a status move.

Notable Moves:
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Hidden Power [Electric]
- Hypnosis/Toxic/Sleep Talk
- Recover/Rest

A Surf/Ice Beam combination can be easily walled by Water Pokemon. However, an offensive oriented Milotic with Hidden Power [Electric] and invested EVs into SpA can be unexpected and effective. To add to its arsenal, it can also inflict status. It can use Hypnosis to put threats to sleep and switch to a counter/sweeper, or it can use Toxic on defensive walls and stall with Recover.

It already has a high SpD; and with Marvel Scale, potentially more Def. Its trait also allows you to switch in and absorb status moves, like Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp. It can regain HP with Leftovers and Recover; and is capable of Rest-Talk, which works nicely with its trait.

Its stats make it a tank, and a very good choice for a bulky Water Pokemon in UU. Its not BL-material based on just its offense or defense. Its BL-material because of both: in UU its capable of sweeping and surviving for a long time.

Results
Katherine: Typhlosion | Borderline Accepting, vague but I get the gist. Remaining | far too vague (1 nom).

 

[Blaziken Fan]

This is my first post here, though with almost 900 hours gameplay time (450 hundred on Diamond, 250 on Ruby, the rest over Emerald, Fire Red and Colosseum), I consider myself rather experienced. I'm only going to mention Pokemon I have considerable experience with. I personally nominate the following Pokemon:

Offensive:

Staraptor:
Incredible Attack stat, very good Speed, along with STAB Brave Bird, STAB Return, Close Combat, U-turn, Pursuit, STAB Quick Attack, not to mention mention Sub-Roost. Couple these with two immunities and Intimidate making it surprisingly easy to get in. Truly scary (for the opponent that is).

Blaziken:
It might not have Infernapes' speed, but that doesn't make it bad. Those offenses are scary on anything, let alone with that movepool (which will be vastly improved come Platinum) and it makes an excellent mixed scarf sweeper. Plus if you Baton Pass it some speed, it's just plain lethal. The fact it gets Baton Pass, Agility and Swords Dance make it a good choice for Baton Pass teams. In my own opinion, this makes a great alternative for Infernape.

Defense And Support:

Gardevoir:

With great Sp. Defense, Calm Mind, Wish, and all those Status moves (the foremost being Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical sweepers) Gardevoir can be a potent Defensive and Support Pokemon. It can actually be quite unpredictable (is it carrying Focus Blast or Thunderbolt? Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave?)

With that Special Attack, backed up by Calm Mind and a wide array of attack options (Psychic, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball and, come Platinum, Icy Wind) it can be a potent offensive force, because while it's speed is mediocre at best it's defenses, along with afforementioned support options, give it surprising durability. Very few Pokemon can switch into Gardevoir with 100% safety.

Results

Blaziken Fan: All | Rejected. (0 noms)

 

[element]

Offensive BL - Blaziken

My first nominee for Offensive BL is Blaziken. This is the one pokemon that I feel is truly impossible to wall, especially the mixed variety. The thing about Blaziken is that even for bulky pokemon like Slowbro, a 2x fire resist is not enough, since a choice band flare blitz does almost 40%. Also, there isn't a single bulky water that can wall the mixed life orb type - they are easily 2HKO'd by a superpower on the switch-in followed by a HP grass/electric. Blaziken's attacking stats really are ridiculous, and although everyone complains about its speed, base 80 really isn't that bad, and it has agility anyways. Blaziken may be somewhat hard to switch in, but once it's in, it's virtually guaranteed to do a devastating amount of damage. If anyone disagrees with this and knows of an effective counter to a mixed life orb Blaziken, please let me know.

All-Around BL - Abomasnow

This is extremely difficult to wall, since it has both a powerful physical and special attack in wood hammer and blizzard. Not only does it bring automatic, permanent hail that constantly runs down the opponent's hp, but also gets to drain even more of it with leech seed. Nobody really can take both wood hammer and blizzard, and these offensive capabilities on top of its sub/leech seed stalling abilities make Abomasnow just all-around BL. Since sandstorm teams have to use Hippopotas, I vote that UU hail teams have to use Snover.

Results
Element: All | Rejected, vague & no detail.

 

[Wyzra]

I will nominate one Pokemon under the support characteristic--Abomasnow. It is a Pokemon I have many thoughts on, having played against so many of them, often with other teams, and also playing one myself for a long time.

1. Abomasnow
Abomasnow lends Walrein his defensive power and other members of a typical hail teams their no-strings-attached can't miss Blizzards, even with a chance to hit through Detect and Protect. That is a 120 base power attack, often STAB, from a superior offensive type and with a 10% freeze chance. One can even abuse this ability on non-Ice types who learn Blizzard, as is often the case with Clefables or Nidoqueens on hail teams.

But that's just the least important role he plays on these teams.
1) The hail every turn harms most enemy Pokemon, as few Ice-types are being played on non-hail teams due to Stealth Rock weakness (and otherwise poor defensive typing). This leads to a MUCH easier stall, similar to how the sandstorm aids OU stall. But this effect is even more exaggerated in this case, due to how many Steels and Grounds live in the OU metagame, and how few non-Ice Pokemon occupy teamslots of non-hail teams.

2) The ability to support Froslass and Glaceon with evasion. On average, this reduces the damage output on Froslass and Glaceon by 20%. Especially on Froslass, where often the only move on a Pokemon that can touch her is Stone Edge, this makes countering these Pokemon very unreliable.

3) The ability to support Walrein and Glalie. This makes these Pokemon, especially Walrein, extremely difficult to kill. Once in the Sub+Protect cycle, Walrein can effectively hold up the game for 32 turns while the opponent takes hail/poison damage. By no means is this a surefire win, but it stops any sweeper who is either slower or who cannot take away 80% of Walrein's health in one hit. It would be easy to counter this by setting up your own weather, if not for....

4) Abomasnow is the only fully evolved auto-weather in UU. With unquestionably enormous benefits of weather effects for teams designed to use them, having only a single Pokemon in the whole metagame who can change the weather on a switch-in is a little too much. On typical Rain or Sun teams, 1/3 of the team uses Heat or Damp Rock to prolong the effect of the weather. But when this effect can be destroyed with one switch-in, there is an obvious imbalance in the game. It is also quite bulky and can be switched into a number of circumstances without fear of death, e.g., against certain Water and Grass types. This makes it difficult to change the weather to your favor if not playing Hail yourself. In summary, this fact invalidates the arguments that hail teams are counterable by setting up other weathers, since Abomasnow is unparalleled in this ability.

5) Finally, Abomasnow himself. It is a dangerous and unpredictable Pokemon, possessing powerful STABs on both the physical and special sides like Blizzard, Ice Shard, Wood Hammer, and Energy Ball, coming off 92/92 attacking stats. The attacking combination of Ice/Grass is resisted only by Fires, who suffer tremendously to the indirect damage methods of stall (entry hazards, hail) and certain steel types, the only common one being Registeel, who pose little threat to Abomasnow. The common use of Leech Seed makes Blissey and Hariyama less viable counters.

EDIT: I should clarify that I do not intend, at least for the time being, to nominate Snover. Argument 4), possibly the most important, fails when considering Snover instead of Abomasnow. Furthermore, I've never had the (pleasure?) of encountering Snover in battle, so I'm not qualified to make that nomination.

Results
Wyzra: Abomasnow | Accepted (1 nom).

Double Checking: Abomasnow - accepted. Nicely done =]

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Abomasnow

Here is a list of some of the Pokemon Abomasnow can switch in on and force out without being severely crippled (in most cases). Obviously the player using it will have to be smart about this to avoid walking into a Toxic/Sleep Powder; namely Abomasnow cannot just "blindly switch in" on some occasions. The point of this list is to show that it is not "that" hard to find something Abomasnow can switch in on. Of note is that a lot of these Pokemon are Water types.

Ampharos
Belossom
Blastoise
Claydol
Cloyster
Dewgong
Gastrodon
Jumpluff
Lanturn
Luxray
Meganium
Milotic
Politoed
Quagsire
Regice
Rotom
Sandslash
Slowbro
Slowking

Assume Abomasnow happens to run a Substitute/Wood Hammer/Blizzard/Leech Seed set @ Leftovers, the most common UU set according to January's stats.

To force Abomasnow out, one has to

I) threaten a KO,
II) use Roar or Whirlwind.

Threatening a KO:
Abomasnow is threatened with a KO if its opponent will not die before Abomasnow itself does. This applies to every Pokemon and nothing changes with Abomasnow.

Abomasnow will be forced to switch or it will lose vs. its opponent if:

A. A faster opponent is facing it with a lethal attack or a slower opponent is facing it with a lethal priority attack, and a Substitute is not up.

B. Abomasnow will most definitely run out of PP before its opponent does.

A. To satisfy the conditions posed in "A", the Pokemon facing Abomasnow must:

a. be faster
b. use Taunt/Encore/Torment
c. be slower and use U - Turn
d. outstall

If a Pokemon is does not meet any of these three requirements, barring the Abomasnow player not playing very well, it will just be trapped in an endless cycle of SubSeeding until all its HP is sapped.

Below, the Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock are bolded. The Pokemon with no reliable recovery moves are underlined.

a. Faster
Standard Abomasnow reaches 240 Speed (+Speed/Timid). This is a list of faster Pokemon who aremoderately threatening to Abomasnow and can switch in without taking too much damage from its attacks.

Ludicolo
Hitmontop
Blaziken
Mespirit
Magmortar
Articuno
Kangaskhan
Moltres
Arcanine
Drapion
Uxie
Houndoom
Typhlosion
Miltank
Entei
Ninetales
Charizard
Rapidash

The premise is this. The Pokemon above switches in as Abomasnow Substitutes, Abomasnow attacks appropriately as its Sub is broken, Abomasnow switches. As more information is gained about the opponent's team, Abomasnow should forego the Substitute unless necessary (when facing a fast Toxic user, perhaps) and use an attack that will threaten its most viable counter.

b. Taunt/Encore/Torment

Taunt:
Drapion
Mawile
Hypno
Muk
Probopass
Bastiodon
Umbreon
Steelix
Aggron

Encore:
Clefable
Shuckle

Torment:
Viable options have already been stated in a previous category.

The premise is this. The Pokemon above switches in as Abomasnow Substitutes, Abomasnow attacks appropriately as it is Encored, Taunted, or Tormented, Abomasnow switches whenever its Substitute is broken or something is threatening to set up on it. As more information is gained about the opponent's team, Abomasnow should forego the Substitute unless necessary (when facing a fast Toxic user, perhaps) and use an attack that will threaten its most viable counter.

Only Hypno, Clefable, and Umbreon have reliable recovery moves, the latter of which is notorious for its lack of offense.

c. U-Turn
Viable options have already been stated in a previous category.


B. Outstall

Basically, anything with Rest that isn't 3HKOed by Abomasnow. Apologies if I missed something.

Hariyama
Registeel
Grumpig
Raikou
Torkoal
Glaceon

Using Roar or Whirlwind

Flareon
Munchlax

Pokemon that fell into more than one category were only mentioned once.

I believe Abomasnow is BL because it falls under the support category and, to an extent, the defensive category. Abomasnow's ability to outstall much of the metagame leads to less Pokemon who can switch into it. This is not my main argument, but its stalling ability amplifies its supporting charcteristics.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Many of the Pokemon listed above have no reliable recovery move. Abomasnow forces them to switch in and take 25% minimum assuming Stealth Rock is down, said Pokemon is neutral to SR and Leech Seed hits: 37.5% if the opponent stays in as Abomasnow switches. Arcanine's going to have a tougher time switching on Glaceon at 50 - 62.5%.

Rest is the same thing, only it delays this process for a while. Rest takes away damage from entry hazards, but it gives Abomasnow a free turn to heal, the likelihood that the Pokemon will remain an efficient counter decreases thanks to the random trait of Sleep Talk, and the presence of Sleep Talk can cause the Pokemon to not have a move that could be critical in certain situations. This paragraph is meant to illustrate the inconsistency of Rest in combating Abomasnow. It is not to state that forcing a Pokemon to Rest is broken.

Stealth Rock is a problem as well. Moltres will have less health every time it comes in, even if it Roosts. A handful of Abomasnow counters suffer this problem.

Through Leech Seed and Hail, Abomasnow will chip at an HP of a Pokemon. Barring a miss, Abomasnow will make sure that any opponent not immune to Hail or Leech Seed will have, at the most, 87.5% of its HP. Leech Seed immunities are also vulnerable to Blizzard, sans Ludicolo and Clefable. The 12.5% missing may seem little, but combined with Stealth Rock and Hail, it makes a huge difference.

Results
Eo Ut Mortus: Abomasnow | Accepted. (1 nom).

Double Checking:

Abomasnow - Accepted. Nicely done =]

 

[E.A.]

My gosh, nobody has mentioned this guy.

I would like to nominate Rampardos as a BL suspect.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

This is where Rampardos excels. In a tier where Speed is a little lower, CB Rampardos absolutely cleans up anything slower than it. With the moveset of Stone Edge, Head Smash, Earthquake, Zen Headbutt, or Crunch, he OHKOes just about everything in the current UU. Here are some damage calcs on these few Pokemon that manage to survive (With an Adamant 252 Atk CB Rampardos:)

Crunch vs. Bold 252 HP /144 Def Claydol- 83.33% - 98.15%, 28.21% of and OHKO with SR down, will OHKO a slightly weakened Claydol

Stone Edge vs. Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Cloyster- 99.34% - 117.11%, 92.31% chance of an OHKO, OHKO w/ SR down

Stone Edge vs. Adamant 252 HP / 16 Def Azumarill- 93.81% - 110.64%, 58.97% chance of and OHKO, OHKO w/ SR down

Earthquake vs. Impish 252 HP / 252 Def Drapion- 84.30% - 99.42%, 74.36% chance of an OHKO with SR down, will OHKO a slightly weakened Drapion

Superpower vs. Impish 252 HP / 252 Def Gastrodon- 55.16% - 65.02%, Minimum of 98% damage with SR down, likely 2HKO w/ SR down

Zen Headbutt vs. Impish 76 HP / 252 Def Hariyama- 84.82% - 100.00%, 41.03% chance of OHKO with SR down, will OHKO a slightly weakened Hariyama

Superpower vs. Impish 252 HP / 112 Def Regirock- 65.38% - 76.92%, will 2HKO.

Superpower vs. Impish 252 HP / 56 Def Registeel- 87.91% - 103.85%, 58.97% of OHKO w/ SR down, will pick-off a slightly weakened Registeel

Head Smash vs. Impish 252 HP / 252 Def Weezing- 91.62% - 108.08%, will OHKO with SR down.

The only two Pokemon that are truly safe are Gastrodon and Regirock.

On top of this, Choice Scarf and Rock Polish are two thing which help with Rampardos' poor speed.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

lright, Rampardos' Defenses are crap, as many see it. However, Hippopotas provides Sandstorm support, which then allows Rampardos to survive Surfs with enough HP leftover to activate a pinch Berry. Aside from that, they truely are crap.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Rampardos has an enourmous attack stat. There are other ways to meet this characteristic other than using support moves. Rampardos has so much power, it can take out some common walls, as seen in the damage calcs, making it easier for other faster sweepers to finish off the foe's team.


Don't think I'm just theorymonning, I have used this guy on every team in the new UU, and I will attest to its success.

Results
ExplorerAce: Rampardos | Rejected, decent effort but shallow reasoning. ( 0 noms).

 

[toadster101]

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Like many people so far have said, Staraptor. It's great speed an attack, as well as great type coverage, allow it to sweep through many Pokemon in OU. It's easily the best normal flying that comes to mind. Defensively, it's not bad ( especially with Intimidate ), however, it can't any Special hits at all, as an unstabbed Thundderbolt from somebody such as Gengar is in easy OHKO. Still, it's a physcial threat who is far too powerful for UU.

The Choice Band set is excellent. With two powerful stab moves, a fighting move which will diminish the likes of unscarfed Heatran, Lucario and Tyranitar which invest little in defense, and scouting moves ( Pursuit and U-Turn ), Staraptor is a force to be reckoned with.

There's also Gallade. With an attack stat of 125, and moves such as Swords Dance, Stabbed Close Combat and Psycho Cut, I really don't even need to say any more. It can survive a number of common threats' attacks, and hit back hard. It's not the most sturdy thing around, but it's not a glass cannon like Medicham, either.

Exeggutor. You heard me. While he has been significantly nerfed since the Red/Blue days, where he was one of the best Pokemon in the game, Exeggutor's stats are awesome. Defensively, Celebi is far better, even though a Defense stat of 85 and HP stat of 95 is nothing to scoff at ( though he is weak to many physical attacking types, although resistance to ground and fighting is nice ). However, with Sun support, he becomes a monster, absolutely diminishing everything that doesn't resist it. His problem is, that neither Grass nor Psychic are very reliable attacking types, which means, he will get walled by a some Pokemon, including Heatran, Hera ( Scarfed Megahorn will hurt. Eggy needs Sun support to come out on topic against Heracross ), Gengar and sometimes Blissey ( she won't enjoy an Explosion, though ). He's not going to completely wreck havoc in OU, especially due to his weaknesses, but he should not be underestimated.

The psychic tree has more than just powerful stab attack, however. He does learn Swords Dance, meaning a Physical set is viable, and quite the surprise. Sleep Powder, Leech Seed and Stun Spore are also great moves, which can be used to set up a sweep. Despite his many flaws, I feel he should be promoted, as he is a staple on Sunny Day teams.

Raikou is another great Special Attacker, who should definitely be moved to BL for obvious reasons in which people have listed.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Registeel. Offensively, it's pretty damn bad, however, on the defense side, can wall a lot of Pokemon. It can come in on anybody using a neutral, choice banded attack, and can even survive multiple Garchomp' ( while not in OU anymore ) Outrages. Not just Garchomp, Kingdra, Mence and Dragonite as well. It can, however, still come out on top against a number of common OU threats, using a combination of Earthquake and Hammer Arm.

It's an excellent team player, learning moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic and Thunder Wave. While it's certainly outclassed physically ( Skarm ), it's just too good for UU, walling almost everything bare a few fighting, ground and fire types ( Magmortar, Hitmontop, Claydol and Steelix are possible counters that come to mind; just watch out for Earthquake or Explosion ).

I'll post some more later, including some support. Just don't let my post count fool you. I do have a relative understanding of what I am talking about in the current meta game.

Results
Toadster1: All | Borderline Rejected, vague & no real information provided (0 noms).

 

[Brambane]

I nominate Linoone for Offensive BL.

Linoone/Salac Berry/Gluttony
-Belly Drum
-Shadow Claw
-Extremespeed
-Dig/Seed Bomb/Return

Pros: With the ability to sweep not just UU teams, but OU teams aswell with this set, I believe Linoone should be moved to BL. Belly Drum while the opponent is putting up Stealth Rock, and Gluttony activates the Salac Berry. Then, just sweep. Extremespeed can often OHKO anything that doesn't resist it. Shadow Claw kills Ghosts and Psychics, such as Grumpig, Frolass, and even Celebi. Dig can OHKO Steel types like Registeel and Metagross. Seed Bomb will almost always OHKO Ground, Rock and Water types, such as Milotic in UU and Hippowdon in OU. Finally, Return can act as a powerful STAB attack that will really put a dent in an opponent's team, but Dig or Seed bomb are better.

Cons: I think it's important we know each Pokemon's faults, not just their gifts. That way, the best decision can be made. Anyhoo, if your opponent is not setting up, your pretty much dead. The best idea is to switch at that point. Just watch out for Pursuit. Linoone, unfortunantly has to deal with a wide variety of fighters. In UU, Staraptor poses as a deadly opponent. With access to Quick Attack, Close Combat, base 120 attack and base 100 speed (the same as Linoone's), there is a reason why it's called the Predator Pokemon. To also note, a Quick Attack could put Linoone's HP to the point that it can't Belly Drum. Aswell as Staraptor, Pokemon like Gallade and Hariyama are threats, although you can often get a Belly Drum in (watch out for Fake Out, though). In OU, Infernape and Lucario are your biggest threats. Mach Punch from Infernape and Extremespeed from Lucario can easily OHKO Linoone. Scizor can also cause trouble with Bullet Punch. Skarmory can take most of Linoone's attacks, and then just Roost them off. Finally, Breloom can Mach Punch Linoone into fainting aswell.

I am not a good writer, but I hope I convinced you to put Linoone in BL.

Result
Dracoyoshi8: Linoone | Rejected, no real reasoning. (0 noms).

 

[1059860]

1) SHAYMIN

Shaymin is a Pokemon with incredible Stats all round. Its base 100 HP allows it to set up 101-Subs, unbreakable by 1 Seismic Toss or Night Shade. On top of that, Shaymin's incredible defensive stats 100/100/100 make it capable of walling great walls in the UU tier. What give it more benefits in its defense is Leech Seed. Tagged along with Leftovers, it can not only heal a major percentage of HP every turn, it can also aid it in setting up more Substitutes. Its great ability Nature Cure rends any Status moves practically useless. With that, it can also Rest away any damages from Substitute or the opponent with ease. Its speed also allows it to pull off such moves easily.

All in all, defensively, Shaymin not only can wall many UU opponents to nemesis, easily switch into any Status, and being able to heal away with nearly no hinderances, as well as Leech Seed the opponents for greater benefits.

Offensively, the 40% 180 Base Power Seed Flare may lower the opponent's defense nearly half of the time, forcing switches, gaining Shaymin a free turn to Seed/Rest or another attack. Gaining Earth Power and Air Slash from Platinum, it can now also have a better chance of taking down previous threats such as other grasses or steels.

Shaymin is diverse and great both offensively and defensively. It constricts the options available for the opponent because not only it is very strong, it is also very bulky. Killing this thing in battles are usually a strain for most opponents in UU, but for it to being able to switch into any Status, Ground and Electric moves notably and hit back hard or Wall, it is mostly overpowered. With it banned, the game should be much more different as there will no longer be this thing that has 100/100/100 defenses and can switch into Toxic/Para and even many attacks and simple Rest or Switch out or does great damages back

2) Milotic

This bulky water type is a Suicune. Already superb in HP and Special Defense, its ability can allow it to benefit from Status such as Paralysis or Burn. However, the main reason it should be put to BL is it being able to switch into many attacks, both Physical and Special, and use its BulkyWater title to defend for much of a team. Generally, unless choiced or previously set up, other than Raikou or Shaymin or Gallade, just about nothing can 2HKO this thing, especially when statused, yet it can Haze away any set-ups as well. With the access to Aqua Ring, it further pushes the ability for it to wall, and the instant healing Recover can just shrug off many damages. Also, it has Hypnosis that can put the opponent to sleep while setting up Calm Minds for offensive assaults.

Generally, a Pokemon that can wall much of an entire tier, being able to recover health, has a great ability that can help its defense even more, access to a sleeping move + Calm Mind set up, that Pokemon shouldn't belong to UU, right?

3) Porygon2

This thing is now top 50 used Pokemon, hence OU. If you need reason, then its ability to switch into any absorbing ability such as Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, Flash Fire, etc. and get healed or buffed on top of its great all-rounded stats, what can't it do? It works both offensively, defensively, and in Trick Rooms. Besides that, it can also simply screw around with Recover and heal up. It can also boost its Offense with Charge Beam, making it a Pokemon not only hard to take down, but hard to face on as well... Having only 1 weakness as well, too, Porygon2 is a monster both offensively and defensively, as it lowers the skills of the Metagame by simply knowing to switch it in on the right time (ex. Mantine, Lanturn, etc.) and does great damages back, while keeping in shape defensively.

Just for its usages aren't enough?

4) Chansey
Although I'm trying to not make it based on Blissey, I do, however, want to mention her significances and the differences in the stats. I will then further analyze the reasons of chansey alone, but with the support of the second paragraph.

250 base HP gives it a max of 704 or 641 without any EVs, which is only 10 points different from Blissey's 714 or 651, respectively. On a such large scale of HP, the points are nearly neglegible. A Calm Blissey's 252 EV Def = 119, exactly the same to a Bold 252 EV Def Chansey's. It loses some Special Defense stats, but it will barely matter much when it comes to walling in UU, since it does NOT have to face things such as Alakazam, Porygon-Z, Latias, Gengar, SpecsMence, SpecsTran, and many other great Specially varianted OU threats. The slight drop in the only useable offensive stat make it less useable... However, Seismic Toss is still there for offense, which neglects any Offensive EV/Stats and only matters to the level.

Now, Chansey's barely different from its greater counterpart, but when it comes to its job in UU, it can no doubt switch into many of these weaker special attackers and then starts its job as a support or cleric or both. Aromatherapy simply cures a team out of any status, such as Rest sleep or paralysis. Wish can heal others, and Seismic Toss can do damage. Toxic can ruin great walls. Even if Blissey is versus a Ghost, it can no doubt still inflict it with status and cripple it before switching out. In this game of slightly-weaker-than-those-in-OU, Chansey can change the game into a situation where whoever has the better moveset of Chansey or use her in the right time can take the lead of the game. As long as the player is good at keeping the lead or even be a crucial factor into winning this game. Although arguments can be made that other Pokemon can have good cleric or support movepool and defensive stats, but no Pokemon in game can wall an entire variation of the game (special spectrum) as well as Chansey in UU, and maybe besides Umbreon, who I also suspect of being BL (I'll look more into it soon), Chansey dominates a large proportion of the game. Together used with a physical wall such as Physical Spiritomb, its ability to wall is beyond nemesis for the UU tier.

People may also argue that "Well, Blissey is OU and stuff." Do remember that in OU, the offenses balances out with the defenses, such as the attackers are much stronger in count to the stronger defense. However, this doesn't apply with Chansey. Many of the UU offenses are significantly weaker than OU, but Chansey's defensive ability is hardly a huge letdown from those of the higher tier.

Many people may also that there are a huge number of stall teams in UU, because these players may have realized this fact and are taking advantages of it. Notably Shaymin, Blissey, Spiritomb, Milotic, Umbreon, Lanturn, and Registeel.

One more point I want to make about Chansey, is that 704 HP and 119 DEF (max) is EXTREMELY good. I'm not going to name any other Pokemon but just in general, once the extreme powerful (some which are already mentioned in this thread) get banned to BL, Chansey can dominate walling in UU.

5) Raikou

Having only 1 weakness, access to dual screen, one of the top 5 fastest Pokemon in the tier and amongst highest in Special Attack, Raikou doubtlessly transcends the ability of both support + offense in UU. Calm Mind is available to further boost its Special Attack AND decent Special Defense while STAB Charge Beam is even an option for raising its Special Attack. Being also on the Special spectrum, it also has access to Hidden Power, which make prediction a bit even harder. With Choice Specs, its ability to sweep reaches nearly max, as Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, HP Grass/Ice and Extrasensory eats living hell out of a load of UU's. Out of the 4 Pokemon that are faster than it, 2 are weak to its STAB. Sceptile can't take hits from HP Ice, and Electrode can't do much besides Explosion. If it is on a team where Raikou uses Reflect, some Electrode can't even kill it with Explosion if Raikou decides to run some weird EV with Calm Mind.

All in all, Raikou is insane.

6) Clefable
As much as I like Clefable, this thing was blessed by Arceus in D/P, when it had gained Magic Guard. This ability not only allows Clefable to freely switch-in without taking any side damages (although sometimes still normal damages if switched in on an attack), but Clefable is just the jack of all trades. Being able to abuse Toxic Orb STAB Facade, no Life Orb recoil, no Double-Edge STAB recoil, immune to sleep/freeze/para if one of an orb is held, available with Trick, Seismic Toss can hurt when used defensively, can Calm Mind sweep, can use ResTalk set. Charge Beam is available as a booster, Dual Screens are available. Can Psych Up to beat other Calm Minders such as Spiritomb, Wish heal, Aromatherapy... I mean, this huge movepool. I can easily have a team of Clefables with all different movesets and all of them can be effective. Most definitely BL as UU can't stand this torture.

If I experience more, I will add here.

Results
1059860: Shaymin | Accepted. Remaining | Reject, poor reasoning. (1 nom).

Double Checking:

Shaymin - Rejected. really really poor reasoning.

 

[Objection]

With Linoone, all you have to do is come in on a pokemon without a fighting type move or priority move, and then belly drum on the switch (because a switch is guaranteed), and with gluttony and salac berry, Linoone will outspeed everything in UU bar choice scarf Staraptor (which it ties in speed with, and Staraptor is likely to be going to BL anyway), and anything that doesn't either 4x resist or have immunity to Extremespeed has absolutely no chance against it. The only pokemon with immunity to Extremespeed are ghosts, and the only ghost that isn't weak to Shadow Claw is Spiritomb (who will probably be joining Staraptor in BL). This just leaves the likes of Aggron, Probopass and Bastiodon to take the hits. If you're fine with putting a pokemon with a 4x fighting weakness and a 4x ground weakness on your team, then there shouldn't be a problem. If not, then how exactly can you defeat Linoone if it comes in at its right moment?

Results
Objection: Linoone | Rejected, too vague & no reasoning based on characteristics (0 noms).

 

[Legacy Raider]

First of all, I'd like to say that I quite like the state of the metagame as it is. I wouldn't mind if nothing gets banned, as to be honest we do have a decent and somewhat balanced game at the moment. However, to try and make it a better metagame I'm going to nominate what I think might be possibly BL pokemon.

I also feel that we should be very liberal with our suspect choosing, the more Pokemon we label "this could be BL" the more people will spend time testing it and scruinising it. This is why, regardless of whether I feel they are BL or not, I will probably be nominating to majority of the controversial Pokemon that have been mentioned in this thread. I don't really have a formed opinion on such Pokemon yet, but I believe that they should be brought to the attention of the community.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments in this post. I also think that being nominated in this thread is not necessarily a bad thing for a pokemon - simply observing a pokemon more thoroughly and really seeing it in context will help us come to informed decisions about them. So I'm going to nominate things that I feel have even a slight chance to be BL, so by testing them we can silence these suspicions and reassure everyone that they are UU, or actually see that they do have BL qualities.

Anyway, my nominations:

Offensive Characteristics
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Gallade

I feel Gallade is simply too strong for the metagame at the moment, and the defensive pokemon aren't quite strong enough to keep it in check. Firstly, it is not specially frail by any means, meaning that it can stat up against the majority of special attackers with ease. This also means that many of the physical walls who rely on special attacks (Slowbro, Spiritomb, Nidoqueen, Claydol, Weezing) are going to do less to Gallade with their special attacks than Gallade will be doing to them with resisted hits. Gallade can use its 115 SpD to stat up in the face of these so called walls if they lack a status attack, and even that can be circumvented by carrying Substitute (which I've been taking advantage of myself). This all combines to make it really very easy for Gallade to get a Swords Dance in, meaning that more often than not, common battle conditions against a Gallade would be it at +2 attack and ready to rip things up. This isn't even taking into account Gallade's plethora of status moves, which it can use to great effect in crippling its most common switch ins, rendering them useless for the rest of the battle and allowing Gallade to take them out with ease later on in the game. Gallade has access to Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and Hypnosis, and can use these to take out its common checks. Crobat really enjoys being paralysed or burned, and Slowbro loves getting put to sleep. These status moves mean that it is even easier for Gallade to SD up, and even harder to take down.

Gallade is much more of a wallbreaker than a sweeper. I feel that the offensive characteristics of being able to sweep through entire teams don't perfectly apply to Gallade, because of its mediocre 80 speed which means that many things can outspeed and revenge kill it. Although Gallade can sweep quite easily with SubSalac and Choice Scarf, that is not its primary role, and is not the one that it can perform best. I feel that Gallade is also BL under the support clause - it makes it significantly easier for other pokemon to sweep, by having the ability to either remove or critically weaken every defensive pokemon in the UU metagame. So the fact that Crobat can switch in and revenge kill Gallade a lot of the time is a moot point, because the Gallade user doesn't mind switching out, as the ease of getting Gallade in on weak special attacks means that it will have ample opportunity to take things out later on in the game too.

The vastness of its movepool, one which overshadows the majority of fighting types this side of Lucario, means that its unpredictability can often spell doom for its common switchins. In addition to Close Combat and Stone Edge - which between them get neutral coverage on everything in UU but a handful of pokemon (Claydol, Toxicroak, Medicham, Nidos, and other Gallade), it has access to: Shadow Sneak, Leaf Blade, Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Earthquake, Zen Headbutt, and all the elemental punches. These other attacks are all pretty viable on Gallade, and allow it to easily take out the things that can survive hits from Close Combat and Stone Edge. Slowbro and Claydol coming in to wall you? OHKO both of them with an SD Leaf Blade. Weezing and Nidoqueen ruining your fun? Do the same with a stab SD Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt. There is literally nothing that can close to having a 'safe' switch in into Gallade, and this is where it draws its amazing wall breaking potential from. This, and its 125 base attack, Swords Dance, and 180 power Close Combat, means that nothing can 'wall' Gallade.

And as a side note: Gallade's superiority over its other fighting brethren mean that it is the UU Fighting type to use. It thoroughly outclasses the likes of Hitmonlee and Primeape, meaning these pokemon, which were very common in old UU, are non-existent in the new one. I know that this is holds no weight on Gallade's status as UU, but it is a personal point that I thought I'd bring up regardless. Anyway, because of the reasons outlined above (apart from in this paragraph), I strongly feel that Gallade is too strong for the UU metagame, and deserves to be tested for BL.

Staraptor

Staraptor gets near perfect coverage in UU with Brave Bird and Close Combat, with the combo being resisted only by Rotom, who is usually easily 2HKOed by Brave Bird because of its poor defensive stats. Great coverage with only 2 attacks, U-turn, and decent speed all combine to make Staraptor possibly the best user of CB in the tier. It is just a matter of selecting whether to Brave Bird or Close Combat, and then sitting back to watch the incoming pokemon take a massive hit. There is next to nothing in the metagame that can switch in on both Close Combat and Brave Bird without being 2HKoed in the process, and every switchin still faces the risk of having to eat a U-turn instead, and be facing its counter immediately. The only thing that really holds Staraptor back is its Stealth Rock weakness. Apart from that, you really couldn't ask for much better an offensive CBer.

Scarf Staraptor makes a mean revenge killer, but the other set that I feel really breaks Staraptor is the SubRoost set. At first I was quite skeptical of it myself, but I would honestly now say that no one should dismiss this as a gimmick until they've tried it for themselves. Staraptor is apt at causing switches - its mere presence sends teams rushing for some sort of Flying or Fighting resist. The SubRoost set capitalises on this, in addition to Staraptor's Intimidate, to set up a Substitute on the switchin, or on an easily predicted status attack. One of the saving graces for teams faced with a CB Staraptor is that if they predict right, and bring Registeel in on Brave Bird instead of Close Combat, Staraptor cannot change its move and will be forced to switch out and take more SR damage upon re-entry. With Substitute and Roost, both of these points become moot. The need for prediction is thrown out the window once Staraptor is safely behind a Sub, meaning the user can see exactly which move is needed to take on the opponent's switchin. Once again, the excellent offensive synergy of Brave Bird and Close Combat means that Staraptor loses out on very little by using half of its moveslots on Substitute and Roost. Roost helps recover off SR and recoil damage, meaning that SubRoost Staraptor easily has the lasting potential and offensive power to single handedly run through the majority of teams.

Because of its access to very high powered attacks, excellent coverage with just Brave Bird and Close Combat, excellent Attack score, and the ease with which SubRoost raptor in particular can win games, I feel that Staraptor is definitely "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort", and therefore should be a BL suspect.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Froslass

In a tier where sandstorm is virtually non-existent, auto-weather inducers are few and far between, and fast Taunters are even rarer, Froslass shines as an almost ideal lead. It has the perfect typing, speed, and movepool for the job, and will next to guarantee a smart user either 2 layers of spikes or a layer and a kill. Firstly, Ice/Ghost is perfect for the job of a suicide lead. Ghosts are immune to Fake Out, one of the main ways in which suicide leads are dealt with, and Froslass' Ice typing affords it immunity to the only type of auto weather commonly seen in UU - hail. It also gives Froslass STAB on Ice Beam, which is very helpful in fending off the only faster pokemon that commonly runs Taunt, Crobat. Because of its typing and speed, it becomes a great user of Focus Sash, and despite paper defenses usually manages to survive plenty long enough to set up its strategy.

Froslass has access to a wide range of very disruptive moves that make it almost ideal as a lead. Firstly, its 110 base speed allows it to Taunt any form of set up from the opposing pokemon, be it SR, screens, or even another Taunt, and allows Froslass to carry out its strategy. Taunt also forces the opponent to attack, allowing Froslass to more often than not take it down with it with Destiny Bond. Spikes are available to very few pokemon, and with its great speed Froslass is one of the best users of them. The ease with which Froslass can get 2 or 3 layers onto the field is too much, I find. I think Froslass should be a BL suspect under the support clause - the Spikes it lays makes it far too easy for other offensive pokemon on the Froslass user's team to sweep.

There is only one Froslass lead set - as soon as they see its sprite, the opponent knows exactly what Froslass is going to do - and yet it doesn't become any easier to deal with. This is reminiscent of the Garchomp days - we all knew exactly what Garchomp was going to do as soon as it hit the field, but this did not make it any easier to deal with whatsoever. The lead Froslass set is almost guaranteed to be Timid, 4HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, Spikes / Taunt / Ice Beam / Destiny Bond. Take a look at these statistics:

JAN 2009 UU LEAD

|    3 | Froslass   |   6772 |    7.76 |

| Froslass   | Item         | Focus Sash       |    51.7 |
| Froslass   | Nature       | Timid            |    91.2 |
| Froslass   | SpAttack EV  | Max              |    87.2 |
| Froslass   | Speed EV     | Max              |    99.0 |

| Froslass   | Move         | Spikes           |    76.9 |
| Froslass   | Move         | Destiny Bond     |    64.0 |
| Froslass   | Move         | Ice Beam         |    56.7 |
| Froslass   | Move         | Taunt            |    40.3 |

Because of its lack of vulnerability despite extreme predictability, and its ability to 'consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep', I strongly feel Froslass should be a BL suspect.

Results
Legacy Raider: Gallade | Accepted. Froslass | Accepted. Staraptor | Accepted. (3 noms).

Double Checking:

Gallade,Froslass - Accepted
Staraptor - Accepted - close to borderline though.