np: UU - Higher Ground

[Steinhauser]

Super Luck added an extra 12.5% (+2 stages instead of +1) to the crit rate of moves, which is relevant to both Honchkrow and Absol. That means a Super Luck Night Slash would have had a 37.5% crit rate, boosted to 50% with a Scope Lens. Normally, those rates would be 25% and 37.5%, respectively. Moves without "a high crit rate" had a 25% crit rate with Super Luck (37.5% with Scope Lens) instead of 12.5% (or 25% with SL).

If this is correct, does that means Bulbapedia is incorrect?

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Critical_hit#Critical_hit
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Super_Luck_(ability)

According to these articles, Super Luck doubles the critical rate (from stage 1 to 2 with normal moves and from 2 to 4 with high-crit moves) before items are added in. Thus normal moves would follow the progression outlined in the quote (12.5% / 25% for Super Luck / +Scope Lens) but high-crit moves would be boosted to 33.3% / 50%.

 

[Boingo]

Serebii states the same about Super Luck crits:

http://www.serebii.net/games/criticalhits.shtml

 

[X-Act]

Okay, here is some Super Luck information:

For the record, me and Peterko tested critical hits in general 2 years ago. I still have the results of the tests we conducted:

Non-High Critical Hit move - Out of 100 hits, 7 were critical: 7/100 = 7%

This is close to the normal 6.25% rate, i.e. Critical Hit domain 1.

Night Slash only - Out of 120 hits, 12 were critical: 12/120 = 10%
Razor Claw - Out of 336 hits, 38 were critical: 38/336 = 11.31%
Scope Lens - Out of 128 hits, 17 were critical: 17/128 = 13.3%
Super Luck - Out of 120 hits, 13 were critical: 13/120 = 10.83%

All of these are close to 12.5% rate, suggesting that all of these are in Critical Hit domain 2 (at that time, high-critical-hit moves being in Critical Hit domain 2 was news, as they were in domain 3 prior to DPP).

Focus Energy - Out of 406 hits, 101 were critical: 101/406 = 24.88%
Shadow Claw + Scope Lens - Out of 120 hits, 25 were critical: 25/120 = 25.83%
Night Slash + Super Luck - Out of 120 hits, 32 were critical: 32/120 = 26.67%

All of these are close to 25% rate, suggesting that all of these are in Critical Hit domain 3 (at that time, Focus Energy adding 2 to the Critical Hit domain was news, as it only increased it by 1 prior to DPP).

Focus Energy + Scope Lens - Out of 256 hits, 97 were critical: 97/256 = 37.89%
Night Slash + Super Luck + Scope Lens - Out of 192 hits, 58 were critical: 58/192 = 30.2%
Super Luck + Scope Lens - Out of 296 hits, 93 were critical: 93/296 = 31.4%

All of these are close to 33% rate, suggesting that all of these are in Critical hit domain 4.

Interestingly, Super Luck + Scope Lens hit with a CH more often than Night Slash + Super Luck + Scope Lens, but we thought that this was just good luck, and we concluded that Super Luck + Scope Lens should have been at around 25%, while the other one should have been at around 33%.

From the data above, it is clear that Super Luck is only increasing the Critical Hit domain by 1.

So Bulbapedia and Serebii are not just wrong about Super Luck, they are wrong about Focus Energy as well.

 

[Vrolok]

With this new information, is Scope Lens a better item for krow than LO? I didn't realize that critting also ignored your own negative modifiers, so using it with Superpower could be a plus. Is a 33% crit night slash better than LO overall? This only applies to superluck krows, obviously.

 

[Sidd]

The answer to these are the same, after the UU->BL vote occurs, the BL->UU nominations/votes will happen. This is to ensure that everyone knows what is actually going to be in the tier before nominating things to be brought down...for example, it would be tough to decide if Raikou is BL while people are wondering if Dugtrio may or may not be in the tier, since that question would have a large impact on the placement of both pokemon.

So will there be another testing period that includes all the current BL Pokemon to see how they fare in the current metagame or will the current UU Voters have to decide as is?

 

[MegaKick]

Man, donphan and dugtrio get introduced as shaymin and crobat get banned and honchkrow (walled by donphan) comes back...lucky guys.

As said, dugtrio is underwhelming (but many people over-prepare for him) and donphan is doing beter then expected.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Dugtrio has been failing against me. I don't use one but it's never done anything significant besides trap my Roserade after she already laid down spikes. They usually just sacrifice themselves and chip away a bit of my Steelix's health.

Now that Honchkrow is UU again Dugtrio has to be really careful with choice attacks on roserade, drapion, etc. Honchkrow can come in after the ko and Pursuit for an easy KO. If pursuit is less common than night slash, even the LO variants will likely find themselves dead trying to escape a Sucker Punch. Basically this will make Dugtrio harder to use since Honchkrow is going to be one of the top UU's until next suspect vote.

 

[MegaKick]

donphan used stone edge!

Take that honchkrow!

 

[Rook]

Considering Honchkrow gets NP, I doubt Donphan can wall him. I'm pretty sure a NP boosted Dark Pulse would KO Donphan.

 

[BurtonEarny]

donphan used stone edge!

Take that honchkrow!

Um... Drill peck/ Superpower on the switch, switch out. Rinse, repeat. Sucker Punch when Donphan gets under 25 percent and its ko'd no matter what its ev spread (if you didn't Superpower). Donphan loses to Honchkrow played right...

Max/ Max Donphan can force out Honchkrow twice w/o Rest/ Wish support. If it is a 252 Hp/ 0 Def. version, then it can only force out Honchkrow one time.

 

[franky]

Honchkrow can own Donpan in the long run. Like the other physical walls Honchkrow can beat, they all lack recovery moves which makes Honchkrow such a threat.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

CB Donphan has a 100% chance of OHKOing Honch after LO and SR with Ice Shard. If anything, that's the one you want to use.

 

[BurtonEarny]

CB Donphan has a 100% chance of OHKOing Honch after LO and SR. If anything, that's the one you want to use.

Either way Donphan is NOT a counter to Honchkrow at all.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Sorry, let me clarify. It does so with Ice Shard, while taking less than 50% from its attacks.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Either way Donphan is NOT a counter to Honchkrow at all.

Donphan is a counter to Honchkrow. A counter is defined as something that can switch in on said Pokemon's attacks and force it out. If your argument is that the Pokemon can just switch out, then the only Pokemon that can counter anything are Dugtrio, Trapinch, Magneton, Probopass and various Pursuit users.

The argument is even worse when applied to a Pokemon that takes 35% minimum every time it switches in and attacks.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Did you forget about Stealth Rock? Honchkrow isn't going to be switching out so easily against Donphan while taking 25% and LO damage.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I dont know how something can be called a counter to a pokemon when it cant switch into its attacks and live more than once, but since thats the definition... I am wrong, I'll admit that.
Edit: No, I didn't forget about SR damage...

 

[Lou Cypher]

And what, exactly, is stopping the Krow user from bringing in a spinner? You bring an anti-spinner? Cool, what if Krow predicts that and comes in on it, Pursuiting it back to hell?

In short, SR doesnt have to matter TOO much to the Krow, simply because he already is a great anti-anti-spinner.

Also, there are better sets then LOKrow.

 

[Mrobinson587]

Am I really the only one that has a huge problem with Yanmega? Despite keeping rocks on the field I find in dominating any sort of offensive team that doesn't have 4 priority users to check it. It's not like you can just use a choice scarfer to check it because those are out sped too.

 

[d2m]

Am I really the only one that has a huge problem with Yanmega? Despite keeping rocks on the field I find in dominating any sort of offensive team that doesn't have 4 priority users to check it. It's not like you can just use a choice scarfer to check it because those are out sped too.

To take out Yanmega, you need at least one Priority user (technitop works well, as does Honchkrow/Absol for Sucker Punch, and Honchkrow isn't OHKO'd by Bug Buzz in my experience.) Or a wall like Registeel, Chansey, or Altaria with Aerial Ace. Getting it paralyzed is also advantageous, so pseudo walls like Clefable can get that done. Overall, there's not much that can stop it late game, if it comes into SR then subs once to a Petaya berry, well it's all over. I think he'll probably be one of the next candidates for BL.

 

[franky]

To take out Yanmega, you need at least one Priority user (technitop works well)

Not entirely true. 152 Def versions can cushion Bullet Punch and Fake Out is easily stopped by Protect. I wouldn't even bring in Hitmontop unless its HP is really, really low.

 

[whistle]

i've been mostly experimenting with sets i haven't used before and nasty plot houndoom really rips stuff up. it's been pretty good at breaking stall once the milotic is slightly weakened (although i haven't played many stall teams).

@ life orb (modest)
- nasty plot
- fire blast
- dark pulse
- taunt

come in on something it can easily threaten, taunt the chansey toxic, nasty plot again on seismic toss, kill stuff. this is pretty much the definition of dugtrio bait though so i'm considering a mild nature + sucker punch over taunt to OHKO dugtrio after sr + one layer of spikes (even with no attack evs). oh, the classic should i prepare for stall or offense problem :/

 

[Iris]

I think part of the reason people think dugtrio is so underwhelming is how it is played wrong. Dugtrio cannont switch into registeel and instantly kill it which i think is what most people expect. People need to be smarter with their duggy. Ive been using a combination of Swellow and dugtrio and it has been working well. Also, in my experience, chansey and roserade do not need leftovers that much as my stall team i was using before this is still doing well, just added shed shell on one poke.

Yanmega is actually the biggest problem for me when i make offensive teams too. thats why most of the time i carry a registeel and at least one priority.

 

[Sidd]

Not all of the BL pokemon. Only those in which nominators feel deserve another round of testing (with good reasoning of course).

Ahh, well thanks for that info. Wasn't too sure how the process was going to work, but thanks.

Am I really the only one that has a huge problem with Yanmega? Despite keeping rocks on the field I find in dominating any sort of offensive team that doesn't have 4 priority users to check it. It's not like you can just use a choice scarfer to check it because those are out sped too.

I've been running a Yanmega lead for the past week and the only thing that really seems to completely wall it is Registeel, whether Yanmega has HP Ground. Registeel beats it, hands down. Also, technitop doesn't really counter it if Yanmega has detect, since you'll need to rely on Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch, which certainly don't OHKO.

 

[franky]

Yanmega / Dugtrio / Swellow core + Stealth Rock user + Spikes user = instant win. Absolute force in this tier, the core which gave me a hard time, then I instantly copied it. Dugtrio removes weakened Chansey, while Spikes can chip away Registeel and Steelix' HP til its ready to be cooked by Dugtrio. Reversal Yanmega sweeps the rest. Swellow is a back-up.