Metagame np: Stage 5 - Eruption (Cameruptite and Typhlosion Banned)

[MeteorMiss]

It was good in BW2 with hazard stack and phazing (Roar+D-tail). Now [Zweilous] pretty much walls Lilligant, Ninetales, Typh, and Camel with inaccurate moves and rest recovery. Are you going to provide reason for why you think it is good?

Going down the list of A and B-ranked pokemon, it also walls (and can win 1v1 against) Seismitoad, Uxie, Musharna, Exeggutor, Ludicolo, Mismagius*, Pyroar**, Rotom, Claydol, Gourgeist, Haunter, Lanturn, Quagsire, Rotom-Fan, and Mantine.

Taking hits from Camerupt is just a bonus.

*It can take a Shadow Ball and a Dazzling Gleam, but not two Dazzling Gleams.

**I'm on mobile so I can't do calcs for Specs Pyroar, but I know Zweilous beats the other common Pyroar sets.

edit: phrasing

 

[Aasgier]

Several of these have Dazzling Gleam in their moveset, and some of others of those have a move that switches them out, like Musharna (Baton Pass, Rotom (Volt Switch), and Uxie (U-Turn), still allowing the user to nab momentum. Some of these also potentially run Signal Beam, Ice Beam and/or Focus Blast, which Zweilous does not like to tank either.

 

[nv]

Ok so I just got reqs so now it is time to post my final thoughts on the suspects before the vote. Before I get started, here are my posts so far, referencing my train of thought throughout the suspect test: post 1 post 2

While I never saw this thing on the ladder as much as I should've, it still poses a very prominent threat. Most of the reasons why it should be banned have already been stated, but I will reiterate them in my own words. This thing has a huge boon, unlike Mega Camerupt, which is its base 100 Speed. This allows it to spam Eruptions like nobody's business and wear down its checks fairly easily. The other problem that lends to banning Typh is most if not all its checks have no reliable recovery, meaning they cannot continue to check Typh throughout the match and keep it in check. Now while I have seen arguments about "Stealth Rock / hazards keeps it in check" this is a semi-false statement. While Typhlosion is weak to all forms of hazards, it is almost always paired with a reliable Defogger / spinner, meaning a well played Typhlosion can always beat up its checks and be able to spam its STAB moves more freely. Another problem is its newly released Flash Fire ability which has led to Typh v Typh stall wars which imo is very unhealthy in the metagame as you either stall out the Eruptions, hope to predict the double switch, or have to take a FF boosted Eruption when normally most teams only carry 1-2 checks. Flash Fire also opens up Typhlosion's versatility as it can run things like Charcoal and Will-O-Wisp / EQ to end up getting around its common checks such as Hariyama, other FF Typhs, etc. All in all, this has led to Typhlosion being a very centralizing Pokemon in NU and therefore I am voting BAN.

Mega Camerupt is a very big threat that I didn't think of as much of a problem in the beginning of the suspect test, but now that I have seens its power and felt it as my opponent crushed me with it, I can see why this thing was suspected. As of now, Mega Camel has a great versatility to it since it can run its STABs to check its checks, if that makes sense. Basically it should share a lot of checks with Typhlosion as its Fire STAB is fairly easily taken care of, but the fact it has access to a Ground-type STAB and has Sheer Force to back both STABs up means Mega Camerupt has almost zero switchins bar Mantine (which it can run HP Electric for). This versatility of its dual STAB means it has 2 other slots to run moves such as Hidden Power Electric, Stealth Rock, and Will-O-Wisp all to cripple main switchins such as Hariyama and Mantine. Now its drawbacks is the fact that it is weak to 2 common types in NU, Water and Ground, however it has the bulk to live some weak supereffective hits, meaning Camerupt can come in again later and cripple switchins even further. Although it does have an abysmal base 20 speed and mediorce defensive typing, its combination of bulk and power is what in my opinion has made it broken for NU and therefore I will be voting BAN for this as well.

 

[Empress]

Specially Defensive Zweilous is really good, lol. The fact that it does extremely well vs Fire-, Water-, Grass-, and Psychic-types is huge in this metagame. It has a really nice niche on stall, and I've seen othera have it fit on balance very well. The thing just chews most special attacks and doesn't die, thats its primary purpose, the fact that it can phaze is just a nice bonus. (also Crunch hits really hard uninvested)

I also don't think you should be negative towards people trying to find new ways to deal with the suspects, this is the kind of thing that leads to really centralized metagames. I'm extremely happy to see people using different Pokemon, its the main reason a lot of people play this tier. I mean shit I used a Frillish in NUPL this week and its far from a "sub par" pokemon, its just extremely overlooked. Metagames change and people adapt to threats, if Vibrava and Zweilous are solid answers to arguably the two biggest metagame threats, why shouldn't they be used? I'd rather see a metagame where Camerupt and Typhlosion have to run HP Ice to get past Vibrava, than a metagame where every team has Hariyama, Seismitoad, and Typhlosion and every single game plays the same way.

tl;dr Don't hate, innovate.

Technically this could be seen as creativity, but IMO it's more overcentralization of the metagame. While SpD Zweilous, Vibrava, and Frillish are "viable" mons in the NU metagame, they aren't very good, and most (if not all) of their usage can be attributed to FireSpam. Remember: "If you are using garbage mons to check a top tier sweeper, then it's potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is." If we could easily deal with Mega Rupt and Typh with more conventional threats, I'd have no qualms with saying No Ban, but when we look at the C ranks and lower for answers, it's a sign we are beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Aberforth]

...so use hariyama, mantine, pelipper, regirock, samurott, magmortar, ext to check them if you dont want to get creative. You cant have it both ways in terms of "I dont want to see yama mantine on every team" while then saying using other things for them makes them overcentralising.

 

[Empress]

...so use hariyama, mantine, pelipper, regirock, samurott, magmortar, ext to check them if you dont want to get creative. You cant have it both ways in terms of "I dont want to see yama mantine on every team" while then saying using other things for them makes them overcentralising.

I'm not doubting that Rupt and Typh lack viable checks in NU- they do have some. Nonetheless, whether a mon has checks and counters is NEVER the sole reason to say ban or no ban. That's why you shouldn't say stuff like "free Typh; Hariyama counters it". There are viable checks Camerupt and Typhlosion, but their sheer power and overcentralization of the metagame means said viable checks should not be enough to keep them around.

 

[Aberforth]

For the record, I'm pro-ban on camel, anti-ban on typh, typhlosion isn't that op to me, weak to hazards + faster things, and if it's scarf it pretty much cant break defensive cores. It's strongest, most spammable move isn't exactly reliably at full power in real game scenarios, and it can be prediction reliant to get around some of its checks.

 

[The Goomy]

People keep talking about how you have to pair Typh with multiple hazard removers for it to be viable.
If it really needs that much team support to be good, maybe it's not as great as everyone cracks it up to be.

Also, most of the hazard removers in this tier are very passive, so they're not helping to wear down Typhlosion's counters throughout the game.
So when you do get the chance to click Eruption, it's counter is coming in unscathed and probably not on hazards since you're constantly defogging everything away.
(I don't consider Spinning "reliable" hazard removal. You can spin block no matter what and revenge if you want to keep hazards)

Finally, Xatu is not NEARLY as reliable as it was in XY at keeping hazards off the field. The tier has shifted with threats like Sneasel (Pursuit).
But more importantly, a lot of the hazard setters are running more offensive sets (See Garbodor, Seismitoad). This means Xatu has two options. Run bulky and get 2hkoed on switch in,
or run a faster, more frail set that can actually threaten these mons out. Since you're basically forced to run offensive, Xatu definitely does not perform its job of keeping hazards off the field throughout the game since it gets worn down so quickly now.

 

[xzern]

@

If you look at other pkmn in this tier that are very capable offensively but are also extremely slow, you will point out pokemon like Hariyama, Golurk, Mawile, etc. The list goes on. But Mega Camerupt is different from the rest of these pokemon in one key aspect; the rest of these pokemon all have a plethora of sure-fire checks and counters, whereas with Mega Camerupt, it has, like, three or four good checks. Keep in mind that they're only checks, meaning that camel can run Rock Slide for Mantine/Pelipper and HP Grass for Seismitoad. Hariyama and Prinplup can check this guy rather well, but those are only two common NU pkmn. If you aren't running one of these checks in your arsenal, then you're basically forced to either sacrifice one of your pokemon or have one take very heavy damage to camel's insanely powerful STAB coverage. It is extremely difficult to switch in to this pokemon. My argument isnt even taking into account Mega Cameupt on Trick Room teams, where it literally outspeeds everything in the entire tier, as long as you dont mind being outsped by Ferroseed. ban camel.

Typhlosion is a vastly threatening offensive threat. However, unlike Mega Camerupt, it has a lot of checks/switch-ins. Because of this, Typhlosion isn't exactly such an over-centralizing threat, as far as I can tell. However, one usually is forced to run many, (or more than they need to), Typhlosion checks on their team. Not only do most of these checks fall prey to coverage options like Extrasensory, Focus Blast, HP Grass, or Earthquake, but none of them, or barely any, have reliable recovery options. This means that after Typhlosion does 44.2 - 52.1% on your Regirock or 47.6 - 56.1% on your Seismitoad (sets from the analysis) with a specs Eruption, it can just switch out and KO it next time. I'm actually iffy on whether or not this guy should get the boot, but currently, I'm leaning towards ban.

 

[Punchshroom]

People keep talking about how you have to pair Typh with multiple hazard removers for it to be viable.
If it really needs that much team support to be good, maybe it's not as great as everyone cracks it up to be.

Is this really considered 'that much' team support, because simply keeping the field hazard-free is not the hardest thing to do. As any Scyther user can tell u, anti-hazard support may be a necessary evil but no one will tell you it isn't worth it.

Also, most of the hazard removers in this tier are very passive, so they're not helping to wear down Typhlosion's counters throughout the game.
So when you do get the chance to click Eruption, it's counter is coming in unscathed and probably not on hazards since you're constantly defogging everything away.
(I don't consider Spinning "reliable" hazard removal. You can spin block no matter what and revenge if you want to keep hazards)

I know this is your opinion but stating that 'all hazard removers are passive and can't help Typh wear down its counters' or 'spinning isn't reliable enough' as if they are outright facts is simply not true. First off, Typh barely needs any help wearing down its counters as it does so just by spamming its Fire STAB, and let its counters' lack of reliable recovery do the rest. And there are also more offensive hazard removers, such as Archeops, Claydol, and Cryogonal, that either keep the offensive pressure on by weakening threats or even handle some of Typh's counters directly; Archeops can certainly soften up Rock-types for Typh and punch through Yama, Claydol counters said Rock-types, while Cryogonal can respond to Water-types. Also calling spinning unreliable when u consider how tricky it is to spin block Cryo :/

Finally, Xatu is not NEARLY as reliable as it was in XY at keeping hazards off the field. The tier has shifted with threats like Sneasel (Pursuit).
But more importantly, a lot of the hazard setters are running more offensive sets (See Garbodor, Seismitoad). This means Xatu has two options. Run bulky and get 2hkoed on switch in, or run a faster, more frail set that can actually threaten these mons out. Since you're basically forced to run offensive, Xatu definitely does not perform its job of keeping hazards off the field throughout the game since it gets worn down so quickly now.

If getting worn down is a concern for offensive Xatu, then it also applies to the offensive hazard setters (yeah good luck switching your offensive Toad into Typh now). The fact that Xatu can still effectively adapt to the hazard setters in kind shows it is still pretty competent at keeping hazards at bay.

Might as well respond to another point you made earlier about Typh not taking SR damage while its counters do. Good Typh players ensure SR is clear before sending Typh in. The counters in question, being Mantine and Prinplup, have to suffer SR damage themselves before clearing the field.

Edit: FUCK typing on a phone.

 

[Kiyo]

Technically this could be seen as creativity, but IMO it's more overcentralization of the metagame. While SpD Zweilous, Vibrava, and Frillish are "viable" mons in the NU metagame, they aren't very good, and most (if not all) of their usage can be attributed to FireSpam. Remember: "If you are using garbage mons to check a top tier sweeper, then it's potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is." If we could easily deal with Mega Rupt and Typh with more conventional threats, I'd have no qualms with saying No Ban, but when we look at the C ranks and lower for answers, it's a sign we are beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

The viability rankings are honestly a joke, and I don't feel that I've taken those rankings seriously in a long time. But regardless of my opinions on that thread, whether or not a mon is good is often dependent on team structure, role, and how good the player is. I'd kind of equate it to Wobuffet in OU or something, in the hands of a good player it can be a great pokemon and really disrupt an opponents strategy. But it's just not good enough on its own to be used by any random ladder player and instantly be regarded as good. I seriously think that in NU there are about 20-25 NFE's or PU mons that have a really solid niche, and can be devastating to the tier in there own way, that are just regarded as complete shit or are overlooked.

There's a difference between using a pokemon with great base stats, a solid niche, and a solid movepool and using something thats directly outclassed in the tier, you don't see me using Smoochum when Jynx is available for example. Zweilous, Frillish, Munchlax, Shelgon, Fraxure are just some examples of Pokemon that can perform extremely well at the highest level of play simply due to their typing, base stats, and movepools, but they're often written off for various reasons.

I'm not telling people to use Pokemon simply to be different, but because they're effective. That's the difference between creativity and innovation imo, the effectiveness of the Pokemon. Regardless of "viability ranking" lower tier Pokemon can perform at a high level. from personal experience I've used more niche mons like Frillish and Shedinja to win tour games and peak 1824 on ladder, and those two mons are C- and D rank.

tl;dr Don't hate. Innovate.

 

[bird crew]

The viability rankings are honestly a joke, and I don't feel that I've taken those rankings seriously in a long time. But regardless of my opinions on that thread, whether or not a mon is good is often dependent on team structure, role, and how good the player is. I'd kind of equate it to Wobuffet in OU or something, in the hands of a good player it can be a great pokemon and really disrupt an opponents strategy. But it's just not good enough on its own to be used by any random ladder player and instantly be regarded as good. I seriously think that in NU there are about 20-25 NFE's or PU mons that have a really solid niche, and can be devastating to the tier in there own way, that are just regarded as complete shit or are overlooked.

There's a difference between using a pokemon with great base stats, a solid niche, and a solid movepool and using something thats directly outclassed in the tier, you don't see me using Smoochum when Jynx is available for example. Zweilous, Frillish, Munchlax, Shelgon, Fraxure are just some examples of Pokemon that can perform extremely well at the highest level of play simply due to their typing, base stats, and movepools, but they're often written off for various reasons.

I'm not telling people to use Pokemon simply to be different, but because they're effective. That's the difference between creativity and innovation imo, the effectiveness of the Pokemon. Regardless of "viability ranking" lower tier Pokemon can perform at a high level. from personal experience I've used more niche mons like Frillish and Shedinja to win tour games and peak 1824 on ladder, and those two mons are C- and D rank.

tl;dr Don't hate. Innovate.

The issue that I often see is when users run subpar, outclassed mons like Pignite and Grumpig to fill a hyperspecific niche. These mons often get compared to seriously strong NFE/PU threats, such as Roselia, Piloswine, Drifblim, and Haunter that are all very strong at what roles they fill, and at times are perfect for a variety of different team builds. Slapping Fire Blast on a mon that normally gets walled by 1/2 the meta shouldn't be seen as innovation, just as using shitty rest/talk eviolite mons just because they can wall a few top-tier threats doesn't mean the mon can serve much other function (although I think both Zweilous and Shelgon have a lot of potential).

 

[YABO]

The issue that I often see is when users run subpar, outclassed mons like Pignite and Grumpig to fill a hyperspecific niche. These mons often get compared to seriously strong NFE/PU threats, such as Roselia, Piloswine, Drifblim, and Haunter that are all very strong at what roles they fill, and at times are perfect for a variety of different team builds. Slapping Fire Blast on a mon that normally gets walled by 1/2 the meta shouldn't be seen as innovation, just as using shitty rest/talk eviolite mons just because they can wall a few top-tier threats doesn't mean the mon can serve much other function (although I think both Zweilous and Shelgon have a lot of potential).

Is that not the purpose of a metagame? To evolve and adapt to the top threats at the time until they fall out of favor? Also, if a particular team is very weak to something then adding a dedicated counter that is hyperspecific isn't bad per se so long as the rest of the team handles most other things.

 

[silver97]

okay imma give my opinion on this one
for what i have seen during my laddering for reqs typhlosion is too much for this metagame to handle. Every time it comes in for free (not so difficult to do tbh) it gets a kill or severely weakens opponent's answers for it and they probably won't be able to switch into it again, this is really hard to deal with especially in teambuilding because to make sure you don't get destroyed by this thing you have to run multiple answers while also making sure you cover other threats and don't lose team synergy. ban
about camerupt, i'm less convinced than typh here, but however i think it deserves to go too. It hits way too hard for this tier and there is almost nothing that can take on both stabs without fear of being crippled or even killed, every time it gets a possibility to fire off an attack, which is not difficult thanks to its good bulk, something on the other side will have to stomach that hit and it probably won't appreciate it; furthermore it has support options also like stealth rock, not hard to setup as long as you are not facing a water type mon, or wow which can be annoying for many switch-ins. ban

 

[ryan]

People keep talking about how you have to pair Typh with multiple hazard removers for it to be viable.
If it really needs that much team support to be good, maybe it's not as great as everyone cracks it up to be.

Also, most of the hazard removers in this tier are very passive, so they're not helping to wear down Typhlosion's counters throughout the game.
So when you do get the chance to click Eruption, it's counter is coming in unscathed and probably not on hazards since you're constantly defogging everything away.
(I don't consider Spinning "reliable" hazard removal. You can spin block no matter what and revenge if you want to keep hazards)

Finally, Xatu is not NEARLY as reliable as it was in XY at keeping hazards off the field. The tier has shifted with threats like Sneasel (Pursuit).
But more importantly, a lot of the hazard setters are running more offensive sets (See Garbodor, Seismitoad). This means Xatu has two options. Run bulky and get 2hkoed on switch in,
or run a faster, more frail set that can actually threaten these mons out. Since you're basically forced to run offensive, Xatu definitely does not perform its job of keeping hazards off the field throughout the game since it gets worn down so quickly now.

That's why you run Xatu and Prinplup or another Defogger alongside Typhlosion. Yeah, it requires a little support to be broken as shit, but that support isn't hard to come by and doesn't stop it from being as effective as it is. Xatu isn't passive because it has U-turn, which allows you to pivot out of things and back into Typhlosion to start clicking Eruption again. Prinplup gets up Stealth Rock and can Toxic shit to wear it down. Pelipper can also run U-turn to pivot back into Typhlosion. It's not like the Pokemon that Typhlosion needs support from are bad. They're good, and they even help Typhlosion in ways that go beyond just keeping hazards off the field.

The main problem with Typhlosion and Camerupt is that nothing answers both of them at the same time well, and even things that are decent at checking both don't beat other Fire-types. Magmortar and Pyroar both rip Mantine apart, for example. There's just no way to prepare for every Fire-type in NU in one slot, and it's even difficult to do it in two, which puts a ton of pressure on balanced teams and corners them into using faster offensive Pokemon. I mean, look at A+ rank in the viability ranking threads. Every single offensive Pokemon boosts its Speed, carries priority, is bulky enough to take any one hit from Typhlosion and Pyroar, or outspeeds Typhlosion. Then you scroll down a little bit and find one Pokemon (Jynx because Sawk technically fits in the bulky enough category because of Sturdy), that doesn't fit this criteria in the entirety of A rank, and it carries Scarf a good amount of the time.

Fire-types just put way too heavy of a strain on teambuilding, and Typhlosion is the biggest offender because it's also fast and 2HKOs almost the entire tier. Just because it doesn't automatically 6-0 teams from the lead spot and needs some support doesn't mean it isn't broken. Think Landorus-I in BW2 OU. You had to pair it with Tyranitar for it to be at its best, but that didn't make it any less broken.

 

[Raseri]

Reminder that there is just under 24 hours left to get reqs

 

[Wanka]

People keep talking about how you have to pair Typh with multiple hazard removers for it to be viable.
If it really needs that much team support to be good, maybe it's not as great as everyone cracks it up to be.

Also, most of the hazard removers in this tier are very passive, so they're not helping to wear down Typhlosion's counters throughout the game.
So when you do get the chance to click Eruption, it's counter is coming in unscathed and probably not on hazards since you're constantly defogging everything away.
(I don't consider Spinning "reliable" hazard removal. You can spin block no matter what and revenge if you want to keep hazards)

Finally, Xatu is not NEARLY as reliable as it was in XY at keeping hazards off the field. The tier has shifted with threats like Sneasel (Pursuit).
But more importantly, a lot of the hazard setters are running more offensive sets (See Garbodor, Seismitoad). This means Xatu has two options. Run bulky and get 2hkoed on switch in,
or run a faster, more frail set that can actually threaten these mons out. Since you're basically forced to run offensive, Xatu definitely does not perform its job of keeping hazards off the field throughout the game since it gets worn down so quickly now.

I can agree with a good chunk of your post but using passive mons to support typhlosion does not mean they are not helping typhlosion wear down its checks. Xatu is not passive in the slightest as it is constantly u turning and giving momentum and prinplup and pelipper can most certainly help wear down checks as they both abuse scald one of the most crippling moves in the game and prinplup wears stuff down with stealth rocks and toxic. God forbid Its not like using offensive pokes is the only way of widdling down a team and with the pivot support typhlosion gets all the more chances to come in.

Edit: did not even see hollywoods post but w/e

 

[bird crew]

Is that not the purpose of a metagame? To evolve and adapt to the top threats at the time until they fall out of favor? Also, if a particular team is very weak to something then adding a dedicated counter that is hyperspecific isn't bad per se so long as the rest of the team handles most other things.

The issue is that these mons can do little else outside of one specific niche, and often rely on gimmicky sets that catch opponents by surprise. Once these mons become more well-known they can easily be accounted for at team preview, and rarely do anything in a match. We instead should be looking for the kind of mons that can function well in the NU tier, not only by filling a niche but also by providing strong utility or have favorable match ups against a lot of mons (either through typing, movement, or ability to set up).

Debating gimmicky sets just holds the tier back from developing other mons that could contribute to the meta.

 

[MeteorMiss]

The issue is that these mons can do little else outside of one specific niche, and often rely on gimmicky sets that catch opponents by surprise. Once these mons become more well-known they can easily be accounted for at team preview, and rarely do anything in a match.

They aren't really "gimmicky sets" though. It's not like anyone is resorting to HP Water on Zweilous to check Camerupt -- Zweilous does perfectly fine with its standard, predictable set.

We instead should be looking for the kind of mons that can function well in the NU tier, not only by filling a niche but also by providing strong utility or have favorable match ups against a lot of mons (either through typing, movement, or ability to set up).

Debating gimmicky sets just holds the tier back from developing other mons that could contribute to the meta.

To take from my above post: Zweilous walls (and can win 1v1 against) Typhlosion, Ninetales, Lilligant, Camerupt, Seismitoad, Uxie, Musharna, Exeggutor, Ludicolo, Mismagius*, Pyroar, Rotom, Claydol, Gourgeist, Haunter, Lanturn, Quagsire, Rotom-Fan, and Mantine, among other things. Is that enough favorable match-ups?

*(as long as it doesn't switch directly into Dazzling Gleam)

 

[mertyville]

I am a little confused.

If Typhi needs multiple defoggers in your team, including prinplup for Rocks, wouldn't Typh rely more on prinplup to defog and then get rocks up to make it broken meaning that your win condition relies more on that one Pokemon regardless?

This reminds me more how the early Mega Latias teams worked with the mono-psychic calm minder which needs only Dark Type removed to clean for game. I don't mean to compare the 2 in terms of how easy both themselves are being used, since Mega Latias needs the opponent to let his dark types get killed to go for game, while Typh prefers to have rocks only on the opposing side.

So what I am trying to get at is that Typh needs rocks on the opposing side while not having rocks on your side to 3HKO the entire tier at the very least.
Or are we expecting that all the mons of the opposing side are taking damage from rocks before Xatu/Prinplup defog and allow Typhi to come in savely?

 

[zbr]

Pre ladder thoughts:

Camerupt: Ban. The fact that it hits like a truck and has access to decent utility moves and being knock off resistant is extremely good. It can go mixed to not entirely get stopped by yama.

Typh: Stay in NU. Like what Goomy said, this thing isn't really as much a problem in game than it is an annoyance. On paper, it is extremely limiting and hard to deal with, but it can be easily stopped by playing smartly around it.

Will add more in later.

So I managed to get my reqs. Just gonna convey some post laddering thoughts. First off, to be honest, the biggest problem about our suspects is that they both occupy the same tier in the same period of time. Fire spamming is pretty much the main thing they have in common and that is what causes a lot of problems for the tier. It is possible to build a team that counters both (as well as taking on majority of the fire spammers), but it'll probably be a bad team when it comes to facing any other thing that doesn't concentrate on fire spam. Let's just think about it. The main way to check fire spam in NU is usually, Yama, Mantine, Pelipper, Prinplup, AV Mag, Regirock, Carracosta and the NFE Dragons (occasionally we have the shaky Flash Fire checks as well). Most of them have no reliable way to recover on them and even if they do, some are extremely prone to certain coverages that the suspect carries (Pel is weak to Wild Charge on Typh and Rock Slide on Rupt). This makes it such that the tier becomes even more matchup reliant than it already was considering that the checks can easily be worn down (yes the suspects too but i'll get to that in a bit).

So the big question now is "Do we ban 1 of the 2 suspect? If so, who do we ban and what is the implication of choosing no ban or ban on both." Obviously, the aim of this is to create a tier in which we have a balanced metagame where there is no insanely big threat(s) that is so cost free and splashable to the point where there is little to no reason not to run it. When we look at powerhouse fire types (isolating fire types is the best way to identify the problem) like Mag, Pyroar, Rapidash (uh..), Ninetales, Simisear and the two suspects, we notice that a lot of them share similarities with the suspect except for a few things. Typh's greatest assets is it's access to Blaze and Flash Fire simultaneously as well as Eruption. It gets something insanely powerful to hit right from the get go and it can play mind games with its really good abilities makes it extremely versatile which allows it to be a pseudo check to Fire Spam for offensive teams making it sort of like a lovechild of FF Ninetales and Blaze Simisear and a volcano. One more major thing to take into consideration is that it can actually use hazards to it's advantage if you opt to run Blaze. I'm sure all those who played XY will understand. You don't really give a damn about hazards when you're using Blaze Typh. Flash Fire definitely gives you an immunity to fire spam, but considering that typh is usually paired with it's own fire check partner, running Blaze over Flash Fire is not that large of a stretch. However because of how the metagame has shifted heavily towards that of fast threats and threats with priority meaning that in order for you to abuse blaze you will need ample support. So does that mean it is less broken in any way shape or form? no. But will banning it really help reduce the tier's vulnerability to fire spam? no. This is simply because what was once Typh's role can easily be filled it by something else like Simisear or Pyroar and all they need is the same, if not slightly more, support. In other words, this means that whatever checks Typh are the main blanket checks to majority of the fire spammers in the tier, hence meaning that Typh isn't the main culprit who is skewing up the tier by being stupidly cost free and splashable as well as forcing people to run niche checks.

Now that we have assessed Typh, lets take a look at Rupt. Unlike the powerhouse fire types that we identified above, Rupt actually has a very workable bulk as well as a good typing to work with (70/100/105 with some great resistances to some common types in NU) and because of it's low speed, it can actually run speed to catch opposing walls off guard. Whenever we look at a mon like Rupt, we think that because it has an extremely low speed, it is not as big of a threat as others. The biggest pro to using Rupt right now is due to it's low cost of being a mega with high offensive output. It is Knock Off resistant and it doesn't have to worry so much about hazard because it doesn't rely on a HP-aligning move like Eruption to wreck havoc. I actually went ahead and tried +Spe nature Rupt and it still retained a lot of it's original power while being able to outspeed walls that are usually EV'd to outspeed neutral max speed Rupts. Not only that, but because it also has a semi workable physical movepool, it is also capable of running mixed to, once again, catch walls off guard while being able to get a lot of free switch ins on various mons that are pretty popular in the meta like Xatu, Garb, Plume and Mush to just name a few. Not only does it have this great offensive presence but if you opt to run an extremely bulkier version of Rupt, it would still work well because it still has a good ability to allow it to function well. So does that mean it is less broken in any way shape or form because it has the speed tier of a snail? no. But will banning it really help reduce the tier's vulnerability to fire spam? yes. Because this would allow the tier to be less divided when it comes to checks to Fire spam as majority of the Fire spam checks are now blanket Fire spam checks, meaning NU will no longer need to worry about packing multiple mons to check Fire Spam as Rupt is the culprit as it is really cost free (with the main cost being it's speed and it's easily mitigated by either a) packing something for offense or b) running trick room) and it is really splashable due to it's lack of extreme vulnerability to rocks as well as being knock off resistant.

after really considering it through and playing using a variety of the suspects. I've concluded that should we ban Typh but not Rupt, NU will not change much in the long run because threats like Pyroar, Ninetales and Simisear are all capable of taking over Typh's original role whereas Rupt's role is extremely unique to itself. Banning both Typh and Rupt may sound like a sound idea but considering that our main aim is to not have teambuilding be such a pain in the ass as well as having the tier be more enjoyable to players, I feel that by banning Rupt and not banning Typh, the tier will not have so much restriction in team building because checks for Typh are typical blanket checks for majority of the fire types.

 

[marilli]

Ok also another thing I kinda wanted to mention was how even tho some people are bitchiing about how Typh always the hazard advantage in calcs and discussion, it's more likely to happen and isn't just "omg just bitching abobut it and making ideal scenarios so typh is op." Typh, by safely spamming eruption wears down the very pokemon that set up opposing rocks and / or clear them, like prinplup, mantine, rhydon, regirock, etc. and get low to the point that they can't do their job of putting the hazards stuff under control properly. It's why Typh often has the hazard advantage. Typh has the opportunity to predict twice: predict the switch-in and hit em with a coverage, or expect the stay in and using hazard move, just stay in one more time and 3hko them or at least get them low enuf they cant switch on typh anymore. Because that threat exists you can't just get rocks up without predicting right, or you'll just lose your rocker right there. Predicting right twice with very specific champions just to check it with hazards isn't great at all.

also 40 hour nosleep hope i can get reqs in whenever its due before fainting lol, but not planning to die, sorry. if im not making much sense if i wake up and read it again and it doesnt make sense ill either try to edit or delete and try posting something more understanable

 

[Sae]

Okay my thoughts have been bouncing back and forth since my initial post, but here's where I am at:

As has been stated earlier in the thread, the main reason I think they are broken is because the other fire type is in the tier. Fire-type checks are really useful on any team, but it's hard to pack the right Fire-check for both mons.

There are things like Regirock, Miltank, and Seismitoad which should work as good Eruption checks from Typhlosion but obviously Earth Power from Mega Camerupt wears them down way too fast. So which one is the one that needs to go?

I have to say that I'm switching my original statement of keeping Mega Camel into banning it. Typhlosion I have reached a decision and I will not ban it. This is namely because most Fire spam checks that really should have worked didn't only because of Mega Camel in the tier. Regirock would be solid as a fire check again since it wouldn't have to worry about Earth Power and the same to Seismitoad. Plenty more Water types can actually function as fire checks if they don't have to fear Earth Power 2HKOing them which is the main reason that there is a separation between checks to Mega Camerupt and general Fire spam checks which usually include Typh in this category.

 

[Shuckleking87]

As has been stated earlier in the thread, the main reason I think they are broken is because the other fire type is in the tier. Fire-type checks are really useful on any team, but it's hard to pack the right Fire-check for both mons. So which one is the one that needs to go?

I know I nitpicked your reasoning, but I do not understand this logic. It would only make sense is if mega-rupt was broken because typhlosion existed and vice-versa, why would you not ban both of them? Both of them can leave the tier if they are too powerful for the meta and if there are no clear stops to them if that's what you are saying. But banning 1 of them(camerupt) based on predicting that the other one (typhlosion) will be easier to check due to the other one leaving ignores the fact of how strong typhlosion was to begin with. If they are both banworthy right now, then they are both banworthy. If the tier feels like they can be reintroduced, that will most likely happen.
But I do agree with your choices of banning camel and not banning typhlosion. in my opinion, camel makes it very difficult for stall to take down as it has the bulk, enough resistances and power to break those teams, while also having a fourth slot to get rid of or cripple its "counters or checks" (quasi mega-steelix without as much bulk). There also really aren't any or many reliable switch ins to this poke. Typhlosion is really strong but the combination of av users and generally bulky pokemon that can easily take hits and that hazard removal is harder than in xy (which is when I would have called for a ban for typh) is going to make me vote not ban. I can see why people will vote for its ban, but if I have doubt whether it should stay or not, rather than certainty that it should be banned, I would rather keep it around.

 

[Raseri]

Voting Thread is up