np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

[Stratos]

zach has mentioned banning rachi in the past because it's just too good at protecting big threats and honestly i can definitely see the merit in it. if i was a TL still i'd be down for a rachi suspect but then again i'm down for most suspects. i still think mence is broken without rachi but diancie would definitely not be, things like azu would be less stupid etc. i don't know if rachi is broken and lots of perfectly unbroken teams would not appreciate losing the mon but yeah.

 

[megacyber]

zach has mentioned banning rachi in the past because it's just too good at protecting big threats and honestly i can definitely see the merit in it. if i was a TL still i'd be down for a rachi suspect but then again i'm down for most suspects. i still think mence is broken without rachi but diancie would definitely not be, things like azu would be less stupid etc. i don't know if rachi is broken and lots of perfectly unbroken teams would not appreciate losing the mon but yeah.

Rachi went 19-11 last seasonal, which is p good. That being said, I feel like it really shines the best with set up sweepers, and there arent many good ones that have synergy with it rn

 

[Arcticblast]

I think the "key" to beating Jirachi is wearing it down rather than trying to outright OHKO it (though some Pokemon can do that!). It might seem like you can't whittle down Jirachi when it's next to a Diancie but Pokemon like Suicune and Ferrothorn do an excellent job at keeping Diancie at bay while also threatening Jirachi with a burn or Leech Seed damage. There's also Aegislash, who is regarded as the ultimate Diancie counter (48 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-160 [41.9 - 49.3%]) and also fares extremely well against Jirachi (192+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Jirachi: 258-306 [63.8 - 75.7%]).

Jirachi's shtick is synchronizing really well with threats you want to OHKO rather than wear down - see Mega Mence, Mega Diancie, and sort of Mega Kang - but there are still several Pokemon capable of discouraging the big threats without being forced to OHKO or die. Jirachi's a good Pokemon, but since it's normally running Goggles it has no recovery, meaning you can chip away at it with Pokemon that don't lose to its partner.

 

[megacyber]

I think the "key" to beating Jirachi is wearing it down rather than trying to outright OHKO it (though some Pokemon can do that!). It might seem like you can't whittle down Jirachi when it's next to a Diancie but Pokemon like Suicune and Ferrothorn do an excellent job at keeping Diancie at bay while also threatening Jirachi with a burn or Leech Seed damage. There's also Aegislash, who is regarded as the ultimate Diancie counter (48 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-160 [41.9 - 49.3%]) and also fares extremely well against Jirachi (192+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Jirachi: 258-306 [63.8 - 75.7%]).

Jirachi's shtick is synchronizing really well with threats you want to OHKO rather than wear down - see Mega Mence, Mega Diancie, and sort of Mega Kang - but there are still several Pokemon capable of discouraging the big threats without being forced to OHKO or die. Jirachi's a good Pokemon, but since it's normally running Goggles it has no recovery, meaning you can chip away at it with Pokemon that don't lose to its partner.

Thats part of why its really good with set up sweepers, because if you need more than one turn to kill that rachi when its next to a +6 azu or w/e, youre losing at least two mons

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

Thats part of why its really good with set up sweepers, because if you need more than one turn to kill that rachi when its next to a +6 azu or w/e, youre losing at least two mons

Again talonflame or bisharp or aegislash can win that match up with support (amoongus)
Belly drum azu is more deserving of a suspect, imo

 

[Bughouse]

I would support a Jirachi test if only to see if xzern even has any teams without it

 

[Stratos]

he has 1 with electabuzz

 

[Checkmater]

Jirachi is great, make it tier 1 before suspecting if we ever would :/
Anyways, Jirachi also has lots of notable weaknesses that would make me lean no ban. As much as I love it, I find myself deviating away from it because of a few things:

Fire types: they're incredibly dominant in the current meta (name a team without a fire type?), and Jirachi hates fires. That isn't to say "hey duh it's a steel it'll struggle with fires" but other steels, such as heatran or aegislash have matchups that are a little better. Same goes for stuff like Bisharp, to an extent.

Spread: Jirachi hates spread and is weak to many strong forms of it, excluding hyper voice/rock slide. If rock slide was banned Jirachi would be so good, hello jirachi volc. Alas, such isn't the case.

Lack of recovery: it's hard to rotate Jirachi like one can switchspam with Amoonguss because it lacks reliable forms of recovery, hurting it severely.

Playstyle restriction: it's not really a good tr setter (thought it is pretty neato, heatran and aegis -> free subs and SE stabs, plus stalling out turns with iron head is ???), and only really fits on Hyper Offense. When I say it only fits on Hyper Offense, I don't mean you can only build it HO but the way Jirachi works is that if you're out with another passive mon at the same time, things aren't going to be fun. Jirachi enjoys being the 1xbulky mon on the team while everything else is killing things, and this "archtype" or I suppose "teamstyle" heavily suffers from things such as Talon, Kang, just about every "fast things check" for lack of a better word. Tailwind and Thundurus will almost always be giving such teams a hard time, and Jirachi doesn't exactly help this. For example, using both Jirachi and Suicune on the same team is really weird. Using both Jirachi and bulky Thundurus on the same team is also pretty weird. In general, running more support mons or speed-control focused mons along with a jirachi ends up with a passive team that's hard to utilize effectively. As such, at least in my own experience, can't really speak much for others besides what I've seen, Jirachi constricts its teams into struggling against landot and talon, and this two-mon combination, unless you're using jirachi+lando, which is cool but still suffers under the issue of being passive, is a huge teambuilding constraint for Diancie+Jirachi teams, or simply Diancie teams in general.


There's some thoughts on Jirachi do with it what you will n~n

 

[Bughouse]

Totem has brought 2 teams to SPL so far without a fire type. Both Stratos and KyleCole brought teams near the end of last seasonals without a fire type. They're certainly good, but I wouldn't call them must haves.

Part of the reason I think Fire types are on so many teams is that you have a large number of viable ones that all have slightly different niches. There's the obvious Char-Y for sun teams, also Camerupt for full-TR. You've got Talonflame as the priority speed-control breaker (though not with its fire attacks). Sorta similarly you have Blaziken who can beat up on offense, but struggles against anything with TR or opposing prio. Infernape, who can provide Fake Out. Heatran is the general go-to. And Rotom-H if you need a particular Sun team check. And even Volcarona (or Charizard X) if you need a set-up sweeper... or a redirector in Rage Powder. And then there's even further smaller niches in Entei and Victini...

I'd say Fire is everywhere partly because it's good offensive stab, yes, but mostly just because it has a very diverse range of roles the mons can play so they fit most every team.

 

[Stratos]

salamence is underappreciated AF

i really think the best set is 3 attacks:

salamence @ lo
- draco
- hydro
- fblast
- twind/protect

though i guess if 3 attacks ever becomes standard i'll stop being able to get surprise KOes by revealing one non-stab attack and then the other, it'll still be worth it. This poke almost always does like 200% of damage which in addition to intimidate and twind support is beyond fantastic. i'm not delusional or anything, i don't think it's the best mon ever but it's damn good.

Arctic edit: technically Salamence has a better rate of landing Hydro Pumps in SPL than I do, consider using it

 

[Kangboy]

LO Moonblast Energy Ball Encore Whimsicott is able to:

Outspeed and OHKO
100% Diancie-Mega, Hydreigon, Scrafty
75% Keldeo (dies to own LO), Terrakion (dies if LO), Flame Orb Conkeldurr
18.8% Latios
12.5% Azumarill

80.2 - 95.7% Rotom-W
76 - 90.6% Hoopa-Unbound
70.2 - 80% Bisharp
67.8 - 80.1% Kyurem-B
52.4 - 61.8% Landorus-Therian

Hits most neutral for about 45%
All Smogon Doubles OU Standards

Encore: King's Shield, Protect, Substitute, Fake Out, Trick Room, Stat Boosting (Swords Dance, Belly Drum, etc.)

Possible usage with Volt Switchers (Rotom-W and -H, Raikou, Thundurus-Therian) and U-turners (Landorus-Therian, Genesect) for unexpected Encores


Other Viable Moves: Tailwind, Taunt, Giga Drain, Safeguard, Light Screen, Fake Tears, Charm, Beat Up, Stun Sp-Tynamo you want to ban battle, don't you?

LO Whimsicott OHKOs the hell out of Salamence too.

 

[Derivatives]

Other Viable Moves: Tailwind, Taunt, Giga Drain, Safeguard, Light Screen

You're forgetting Beat Up.

 

[Tymano]

Other Viable Moves: Tailwind, Taunt, Giga Drain, Safeguard, Light Screen

You also forgot about Stun Spore.

 

[megacyber]

So, we should totally unban Arceus-Bug

I'm more serious about this than I'd like to admit.

 

[Stratos]

No.

 

[talkingtree]

Remember when CM Cress was super popular and pretty good? CM Bugceus would be 10x better with 120 base SpA > 75 SpA, a base 120 Power move that no Pokemon (aside from Shedinja) is immune to, recovery that isn't reliant on the weather, similar defenses, and the freedom to run an extra move with it not needing Trick Room because of its 120 base Speed. That extra moveslot could be used for coverage, or for Refresh so that even burns and paralysis won't stop it, or for sleep talk to get around Spore as well.

Not only that, but it could also pull of roles such as: Bulky Tailwind setter, All-out Physical Attacker, All-out Special Attacker, SD + ExtremeSpeed, and many more to varying degrees of success. Letting Bugceus into this metagame would be downright ridiculous and even the idea of suspecting it is a joke. A bad defensive typing hardly holds you back when you have 120/120/120 defenses. To put it into perspective, here's a calc showing how insanely bulky that is:

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Bug: 351-413 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Amoonguss: 398-468 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

So with no investment, Arceus-Bug is as physically bulky as a Relaxed Amoonguss.

I was going to just brush this off as a joke but I really don't want people bandwagoning the idea of letting it in, sorry if I took this too seriously.

 

[megacyber]

Well thats fair

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Protect

I feel like this should be the standard. I don't get outspeeding breloom because 1) Sub catches no one by surprise so its not like its going to want to be going for spores on you, your just getting mach punched, 2) When was the last time you saw a breloom that didn't have tailwind support, rendering your speed irrelevant, and 3) this guys bulk is just insane. Some calcs:

252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 91-108 (20.6 - 24.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 361-429 (81.8 - 97.2%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 204-242 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lando's u turn cant break a sub (which is probably the best calc here, cause it has to stay in to break your sub), keldeo cant ohko, and with a turn of protect leftovers recovery, talon cant 2hko, all of which are rolls for 108 HP kyub. I understand that its not like 108 HP kyub isnt also really bulky, but i feel that the opportunity cost is basically zero cause outspeeding breloom just really isn't necessary.

 

[talkingtree]

I think the more important part about running 263 speed on Kyube nowadays is outspeeding Heatran, many of which are now running max speed. A Heatran's Heat Wave is definitely going to hurt, and you can OHKO it with Earth Power, so being faster is a huge boon to Kyurem-B's effectiveness. That being said, max speed Heatran is only hitting 254, so I guess you could move 40 EVs from Speed to HP, but that doesn't help much with any specific hits so you may as well go for the speed tie with all the other Pokemon that EV to outspeed Breloom (or creep the benchmark).

 

[Stratos]

263 has to be the standard. your set literally only works because it's nonstandard; if i was confident my loom could outrun ur cube you bet your ass i'd be sporing it instead of mach punching for like half damage. also what tree said, if ur already outrunning tran (which u should be, not just for heat wave, but also so it can't sub on you safely) may as well creep loom too

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

I mean, in this thought though, its not like the faster kyub is going away. If there is a forty percent chance you are giving an opposing kyub a free sub or getting your heatran ohko'd, are you going to take that risk? Maybe standard was an overstatement, but at least much more popular.

Edit: You're definitely right about heatran though, though I dont like that there's still the chance of it being timid and still outspeeding.

 

[Braverius]

Stage 4: When You Wish Upon a Star?

I'm not sure if this is the place to post this but can we suspect Jirachi? It's actually the only thing I think is unhealthy right now (I mean I obviously think TR and Diancie are unhealthy but that's more of a personal / anti-me gripe than it is a format-wide problem like Jirachi.)

I don't know if much more of an explanation is needed given its absurd win rate in games and how removing it actually would make the game way more interactive. All my teams are pretty much "how many viable things can I find to take a mandatory hit on a fucking Steel-type Pokemon that still somehow work together" right now and it's getting a little ridiculous. It encourages a setup-heavy metagame and games are incredibly positioning-heavy, something I don't think I've ever really liked in any format and especially not in one with Pandora's box open like DOU. The lack of Cresselia-type Pokemon being present is maybe the biggest red flag that something is wrong, and I'd say Jirachi is the primary problem in that.

Also would argue that the Salamence ban was exacerbated and fueled by Jirachi but that's for another day.

tl;dr format is really close to being solid but there is but a single magical elephant in the room

 

[Checkmater]

Why exactly is positional play a bad thing? Obviously I've never touched another meta in my life, but something that forces you to think 3+ turns ahead sounds good for the tier, rather than bad. If I'm considering plays and how they'll effect the future and the endgame, and deliberately playing in such a way to allow specific positioning and prevent momentum sucks... this sounds like skill-based play that should be encouraged. Jirachi could be suspect-worthy from a balance perspective, but from a meta-shaping perspective I don't see why we have to encourage stuff like Cresselia and discourage positional, momentum-based play. If I get out-positioned / out-maneuvered or I autopilot too hard and don't realize what's coming, shouldn't I be punished?

 

[Taliheim]

Only three turns ahead? try 50. Even in Doubles, you should be thinking roughly five turns ahead, factoring in timer.

I think brav is worried less about the positional play and more that it's extremely punishing, where one or two turns you don't have positional advantage is pretty much game, or pretty close to it. Rachi can take advantage of a one-turn positional and give their partner free potshots/setup, exacerbating the positional advantage to several turns ahead, and has a good chance of taking that number over the turn count of the ended match. This applies to rachi in general and not other redirectors because they all have some kind of flaw - Amoonguss gets ignored by goggles users and grass types, and toge/clefs get nuked by the omniprecent steel-types.

edit: ninja'd

 

[ryo yamada2001]

I think an Amoonguss suspect test is pretty silly to be honest, there are so many things that can just check it easily, such as Mega-Charizard-Y, Heatran, Talonflame, Latios, Deoxys-Attack etc. but also Taunt users such as Thundurus and Mega-Gardevoir.
Also you're just straight up Sub bait for Kyurem-Black and honestly at the moment Jirachi is somewhat better at its job considering Follow Me doesn't get blocked by Safety Goggles. You also basically don't do any damage apart from on like Mega-Diancie and Keldeo. I think an Amoonguss suspect at the moment is just simply not worth it and I don't think Amoonguss has ever really been unhealthy.