Agreed. At least until PS can find a way around this. (Maybe program in an automatic Gastro Acid after Mega Evolving?)
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No Ability Metagame!
- Thread starter skies
- Start date
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Or just have perma gastro on all pokes, because gastro carries through mevo.
Mega-stones should not be banned, but pokemon should have no abilties after mega-evolving. As a way around it, perhaps you could replace all mega-evolution's abilities with Illuminate, to make it have no effect.
Also, Ubers no long ban-worthy without their abilities (namely Blaziken, Mega-Gengar, and Mega-Kangaskhan) should be unbanned, and so should Archeops. Archeops is just a strong pokemon without Defeatist. It still takes massive recoil from Life Orb and Head Smash, limiting its longevity, and it has poor bulk.
Also, Ubers no long ban-worthy without their abilities (namely Blaziken, Mega-Gengar, and Mega-Kangaskhan) should be unbanned, and so should Archeops. Archeops is just a strong pokemon without Defeatist. It still takes massive recoil from Life Orb and Head Smash, limiting its longevity, and it has poor bulk.
Archeops's poor bulk:
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 222-264 (76.2 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 288-342 (98.9 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 170-204 (58.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 146-174 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not unbeatable attack:
252+ Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 325-384 (76.6 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 325-384 (82.4 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 222-264 (76.2 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 288-342 (98.9 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 170-204 (58.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 146-174 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not unbeatable attack:
252+ Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 325-384 (76.6 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 325-384 (82.4 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Personally, I have a better idea. If you modify the coding for the megas where the Megas have useless abilities like Honey Gather or Illuminate, they wouldn't affect the meta at all. Also, Archeops is technically stronger than Mega Luke, since it can use LO (but then Acro would be useless), but that being said I would unban it as well. Gigas and Slaking on the other hand, can stay banned.
Edit: Oops, just realized someone already suggested the Illuminate idea on Page 2. My bad.
Also, the other alternative is to have Megas as standalone mons altogether, because if they start in mega and don't mega evolve, they will have no ability right? Although this might not be too good.
Edit: Oops, just realized someone already suggested the Illuminate idea on Page 2. My bad.
Also, the other alternative is to have Megas as standalone mons altogether, because if they start in mega and don't mega evolve, they will have no ability right? Although this might not be too good.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
No ban. It isn't as broken as it initially appears. Its bulk is terrible (even though one can argue the same for deoxys-a), its only real Flying STAB is Acrobatics (which requires you to not hold an item since Flying Gem isn't in Gen 6), and although it has good attack, it has no moves to boost said stat except for Hone Claws, which isn't that great. Its most powerful Rock STAB takes off a significant portion of its HP (and has terrible accuracy to boot), meaning Life Orb sets will undergo Guts Flare Blitz Flareon Syndrome (AKA, killing itself with recoil at an extreme rate). It was banned in AE because Magic Guard or Rock Head could circumvent this, but without it, I'm confident in saying Archeops isn't powerful enough overall to get hit with the banhammer.
No ban. We can always ban it later if it appears to be too overpowered.
No ban. Scizor may not have Technician, but Bullet Punch is still a viable reveng-kill tactic.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Are we forgetting the mighty retarded prehistoric bird has a new toy in knock off?
also, that set used in the prev. argument is terrible, 252+ atk flying gem acro is by far it's worst set, knock off/uturn/EQ/stone edge with life orb is by far it's scariest set, all flying stab does is just, sit there are hit random stuff.
Not to mention that, but the CB and scarf sets got switcheroo, making archeops actually have 4MSS for once, which is an accomplishment in itself
calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 146-173 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(knock off + 2 stone edges kill both I think)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 192-227 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- 76.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 445-524 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (the combo has a good chance to 2HKO)
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 187-222 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (a neutral pokemon who isn't afraid of knock off)
also, at best case, those priority checks will come in, 2HKO with prio, and be left with 10%-40% left after LO stone edge or EQ
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 168-199 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 335-395 (119.2 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 224-265 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 270-320 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc,.
I'm not saying it should be banned, but when something's only counter (hippo) gets switcheroo scarfed to death not to mention only has 1 counter, it deserves at least SOME thought before we go 'frail and not as good as slaking, allow it'
also, that set used in the prev. argument is terrible, 252+ atk flying gem acro is by far it's worst set, knock off/uturn/EQ/stone edge with life orb is by far it's scariest set, all flying stab does is just, sit there are hit random stuff.
Not to mention that, but the CB and scarf sets got switcheroo, making archeops actually have 4MSS for once, which is an accomplishment in itself
calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 146-173 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(knock off + 2 stone edges kill both I think)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 192-227 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- 76.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 445-524 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (the combo has a good chance to 2HKO)
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 187-222 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (a neutral pokemon who isn't afraid of knock off)
also, at best case, those priority checks will come in, 2HKO with prio, and be left with 10%-40% left after LO stone edge or EQ
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 168-199 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 335-395 (119.2 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 224-265 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 270-320 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc,.
I'm not saying it should be banned, but when something's only counter (hippo) gets switcheroo scarfed to death not to mention only has 1 counter, it deserves at least SOME thought before we go 'frail and not as good as slaking, allow it'
It has more than just one counter, I just didn't look hard. Mega Aggron is another one:
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 432-510 (148.4 - 175.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you can switch in on an Earthquake or a pokemon on your side being KOed, Aerodactyl can defeat it.
252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 402-474 (138.1 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
CB Metagross is also a counter
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 304-358 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I don't think you know what counter means, btw, since the illuminate thing is such a big idea, we have to assume no filter on aggron.
A counter is a pokemon that can take 2+ of the pokemons strongest hits vs it, and metagross dying to knock off + EQ means it can't counter, more of a check.
also, due to it's scarf set, which due to it's great utility in switcheroo, uturn and knock off, nothing can safely check it unless it has strong priority or a high speed tier that can scarf it
If you run Stone Edge, U-turn, Knock Off & Switcheroo then you're walled by almost any bulky fighter in the game, I doubt Terrakion or Lucario will care about getting switched a CB or a CS either (and if it's a mega then you just lost a turn in which they can set up), Switcheroo lost a lot of power this gen thanks to Megas so EQ would likely be the preferred option most of the time
If you can switch in and KO in a worst-case scenario, that is considered countering, even if you can't take 2+ of those attacks.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
You mean switch and KO in a BEST case scenario
edit: I would direct you to antar's checks and counters thread but I can't find it :c
That seems like worst case scenario, not best.Smog #32 said:
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Your defnition of a counter was pretty much a check, so i decided to fix it up for you, aka make it what an actual check to archeops is, because it's only true counters are the fat hippo lords
That's circular logic. You're saying that Hippo is the only counter because any other potential counters aren't counters because Hippo is the only counter. That's a big no-no when arguing a point.
My definition of a counter was not a check. If my definition of counter was a check, then I would have had a lot longer of a list examples include:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 272-320 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 340-402 (116.8 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 402-474 (138.1 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 278-329 (95.5 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops in Rain: 338-398 (116.1 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 470-554 (161.5 - 190.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
All of those will win against Archeops if they get a free switch-in, but aren't counters because Archeops can either OHKO or can outspeed and 2HKO.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
No ability megame >_>
I'll fix those:
252 Atk Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 204-240 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (so not a check)
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (so it still is a check)
You also missed that I factored in Politoed's Drizzle:
4 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 224-266 (76.9 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 308-366 (105.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 204-240 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (so not a check)
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 314-372 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (so it still is a check)
You also missed that I factored in Politoed's Drizzle:
4 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 224-266 (76.9 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 308-366 (105.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Technically, if Luke megaevolved prior to the opponent sending in Archeops, then it is faster than Archeops and can hit hard with either CC or Ice/ThunderPunch, which I'm pretty sure will do more than BP which is 120 factoring in STAB and SE, whereas Thunderpunch is 150 factoring in SE, and CC is 180 factoring in STAB. But I see your point. There's scarf Archeops and shit to worry about, but with that speed it probably is better off running other sets. And the fact that Luke may not get a chance to mega evolve early.
And on a side note, LO regular Luke is probably a check to Archeops since it's Bullet Punch is stronger. Really, with Adaptability gone, all Mega Luke has got going for it is its speed.
And on a side note, LO regular Luke is probably a check to Archeops since it's Bullet Punch is stronger. Really, with Adaptability gone, all Mega Luke has got going for it is its speed.