Just wondering, how viable would a defensive support Mega Kanghaskhan be? I looked through the number of mega evolutions that had access to Wish, and surprisingly Kanghaskhan is the one with the highest HP stat (105, which barely beats Mega Audino´s 103 HP stat). It also has a stat of 100 in both defenses and double Seismic Toss prevents it from being too passive (Sucker Punch helps against Ghost types).
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Megamons
- Thread starter Whydon
- Start date
While Kangaskhan may be bulky, it's typing offers no resistances except a paltry immunity to Ghost and in a meta with a lot of powerful mons, support Kanga finds absolutely no niche. Audino and the blobs outclasses it as a wish passer and Aggron and Co outclass it as a tank.
Calcs -
Against Mega diancie -
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 169-200 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.
4 Atk Life Orb Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kangs definitely cant switch into Diancie as Moonblast+Diamond Storm will 2hko whatever variant you use.
However Kangs can ohko Diancie -
0 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 240-285 (99.5 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Against Mega Latias -
+1 252 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 243-286 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 207-244 (50 - 58.9%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again no switching in. Kangs can reply best with -
0 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 180-213 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
From just these calcs you can notice that Kangs can do ridiculous amounts of damage without any investment whatsoever.
Which begs the question what can it do with investment?
Calcs -
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 312-370 (103.3 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 132-157 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock ( Even the mighty Aggron is 3hkoed while it can do little in return)
Salamence can be taken out with a one two punch after rocks -
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 111-130 (31.6 - 37%) -- 252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 144-171 (41 - 48.7%)
Same goes for a lot of offensive mons like Pinsir, medicham, gardervior etc.
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 493-580 (177.3 - 208.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To conclude - Mega Kang should only be used as an extremely powerful offensive mon which can setup with power punch, revenge kill with fake out+sucker punch or a scarf or even sweep with a baton pass boost from Blaziken.
Using it as support mon is just wasting potential with no real surprise value.
I just fought a mega charizard y that mega evolved into mega x - is that supposed to be allowed?
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I mean, its allowed. But you miss out on your item I guess. I mean, You get sun I guess
So can we get a Mega Salamence suspect?
I'm still not all-for a Mega-Salamence ban, but those calcs are quite convincing.
I said I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect, and since enough people seem to be supportive of it...
Mega-Salamence is now being suspected.
The suspect will last for about a week or so. I'm not all too familiar with this, but if you have any arguments please make sure to back them up with replays as those will be extremely useful in determining how good Mega-Salamence is.
Also, a Viability Ranking is currently in the process of being made, so make sure to look out for that!
I said I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect, and since enough people seem to be supportive of it...
Mega-Salamence is now being suspected.
The suspect will last for about a week or so. I'm not all too familiar with this, but if you have any arguments please make sure to back them up with replays as those will be extremely useful in determining how good Mega-Salamence is.
Also, a Viability Ranking is currently in the process of being made, so make sure to look out for that!
Diancie-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
guaranteed no hazards turn one and a high chance you can set up your own. you can rely on 350 speed set up and no turns wasting a move over taunt/magic bounce/coat wars and by having magic bounce you also cover deoxys leads.
i'm also looking into choice banded m-blaziken to just train wreck sweep with speed boosts, though im disheartened i have to use jolly nature with that whopping base 160 atk lol and free speed boosts to match. it also gets baton pass to save momentum from being lost.
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
guaranteed no hazards turn one and a high chance you can set up your own. you can rely on 350 speed set up and no turns wasting a move over taunt/magic bounce/coat wars and by having magic bounce you also cover deoxys leads.
i'm also looking into choice banded m-blaziken to just train wreck sweep with speed boosts, though im disheartened i have to use jolly nature with that whopping base 160 atk lol and free speed boosts to match. it also gets baton pass to save momentum from being lost.
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May I suggest you tag The Immortal and ask for it to be removed for said week? A proper suspect to see how the metagame will look without Mega salamence + item
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Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Might I suggest updating the title to runbabyrun
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
So lets get some discussion going...
Mega Salamence is already a force to be reckoned with in the Ubers metagame, acting as a dangerous setup sweeper with Dragon Dance + its good natural bulk that grants it many opportunities to start setting up and just sweep. the transition to MegaMons makes no less of a threat in my eyes, and allowing it to hold an item on top of all its positive traits is truly absurd and gives it the "Mega Rayquaza treatment" I do not think many players would like to have. Whether it be Lum Berry, Life Orb, Sky Plate, Choice Band, Leftovers, etc... all these items give Mega Salamence the unnecessary boost it does not really need to be viable and just pushes it over the edge. Before the suspect, many teams required to run 2-3 checks to it so they are not completely overwhelmed, during the suspect, these checks still exist but to a lesser extent thanks to Mega Salamence not being able to cure itself with Lum or deal extra damage with Life Orb/Sky Plate. Letting Mega Salamence hold an item just increases the power level of the tier and drives the meta to be extremely offensive imo, checks and counters due exist (Skarmory, Mega Aggron, Arceus Rock, Mega Slowbro,etc...) but the unhealthy presence it brings it truly unbearable and undeserving imo. Mega Salamence is already extremely good with its mega stone alone, and making it hold an item just invalidates all balance this meta should try to acheive.
Ban Mega Salamence from holding an item.
Mega Salamence is already a force to be reckoned with in the Ubers metagame, acting as a dangerous setup sweeper with Dragon Dance + its good natural bulk that grants it many opportunities to start setting up and just sweep. the transition to MegaMons makes no less of a threat in my eyes, and allowing it to hold an item on top of all its positive traits is truly absurd and gives it the "Mega Rayquaza treatment" I do not think many players would like to have. Whether it be Lum Berry, Life Orb, Sky Plate, Choice Band, Leftovers, etc... all these items give Mega Salamence the unnecessary boost it does not really need to be viable and just pushes it over the edge. Before the suspect, many teams required to run 2-3 checks to it so they are not completely overwhelmed, during the suspect, these checks still exist but to a lesser extent thanks to Mega Salamence not being able to cure itself with Lum or deal extra damage with Life Orb/Sky Plate. Letting Mega Salamence hold an item just increases the power level of the tier and drives the meta to be extremely offensive imo, checks and counters due exist (Skarmory, Mega Aggron, Arceus Rock, Mega Slowbro,etc...) but the unhealthy presence it brings it truly unbearable and undeserving imo. Mega Salamence is already extremely good with its mega stone alone, and making it hold an item just invalidates all balance this meta should try to acheive.
Ban Mega Salamence from holding an item.
After playing this meta for a few weeks, peaking #1 a few times and experiencing a variety of different playstyles and unique strategies I have felt it is necessary to give my opinion on the current 'Mega Salamence + Item' suspect.
Not Broken. Firstly let me start by addressing the previous points stated by the opposition:
The first member of the opposition stated:
0 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 338-398 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 690-812 (208.4 - 245.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 Atk Life Orb Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 333-395 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I'll give you that Ice Punch may be ran solely for this Dragon, but it works)
Whereas you are not going to get to +1 with that set, and in any given opportunity your opponent will just destroy the Mence easily.
The second member of the opposition stated:
One could make the argument, that the opposing mons are only using Ice coverage moves to beat Mega Mence, but they're actually standard sets. Before you bring it up AJA, I got it covered dw.
Test Ho-Oh, Test PDon, Test EKiller, Test GeoXern. Please just don't think Mence is the only mon without a definite counter (Mence actually has reasonable answers)
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Rock: 272-320 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In these calcs, Salamence is required to run a Choice Band and maximum Attack. It loses the speed tie to Rock Arceus in the prior calculation. It is then locked into Earthquake and can easily become set up bait by Lati formes and other Flying-type set up Pokémon, which seem to be prevalent in the Megamons metagame. Judgment without investment can pick up an OHKO.
These stats can again be applied to Steel Arceus and Electric Arceus, however they fail to OHKO back. Hence Rock Arceus is the best Pokémon. One may argue, that Rock Arceus would only be ran then to check Mega Salamence, however it is also able to OHKO Ho-Oh and resist all it's attacks, bar Earthquake which can do ~50% maximum. They can all OHKO Mega Salamence if given Ice Beam coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 182-214 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Solrock, an uncommon and somewhat gimmicky Pokémon can wall Mega Salamence's attacks and Will-O-Wisp Mega Salamence. If it chooses to Refresh, it is being ran on a non-Banded set, and hence will not pick up the 2HKO regardless.
However this if we're following the banning philosophy put in place by AllJokesAside and ScorrchingTheaph. That no Pokémon can wall all sets, we have disproved this. Now I go on to further my argument in saying, that I can name many Pokémon where this IS ACTUALLY the case. Name a Pokémon that walls Primal Groudon other than Ground Arceus? I struggle myself due to the immense capabilities of the Pokémon at question. Let's bring up a few calculations.
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arceus-Water: 363-427 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Where all Water Arceus can do back is fire off a weak Ice Beam or hope for ten misses in a row. In the other situation listed above, in any given 1v1 situation, the Rock Arceus would benefit. After one boost of the Mega Salamence, it can get up to the desired attack stat, so don't bring up the possibility of Dragon Dancing to appropriate levels.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 301-355 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 260-306 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's literally offensive Groudon and it's still struggling to do anything effective! WOW! Now let's increase the bulk on that set. Here is standard Ubers support:
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Full physical bulk.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this is also going off the expectation that there are people who run Adamant Choice Band variants of Mega Salamence, which is most likely not the case due to the extra power being redundant if outsped by the Lati formes.
I will continue with additional arguments in a separate post, as I doubt this will be enough to shake the bias from the Mence haters.
Not Broken. Firstly let me start by addressing the previous points stated by the opposition:
The first member of the opposition stated:
Firstly, I cannot see how you can compare the two metagames as they feature a completely different set of threats with different Pokemon rising in viability in this metagame due to their ability to compete with the Uber based mons. E.g. in Ubers, Mega Mawile is a C- ranked, whereas here it's one of the best, most dominant threats in the metagame. Stop comparing the two. Nothing makes me madder than when people compare Ubers and AG without accounting for the common occurrences of Mega Rayquaza and the lack of clauses. You're essentially doing the same thing here. Please stop.
Here we see AllJokesAside running the optimal Adamant DD Life Orb spread, assuming he can actually set up a Dragon Dance, he must rely on a Banded Mawile being locked into Sucker Punch? An ExtremeKiller Arceus that has been crippled to the point where a Stone Edge does zero to Mence? When are you planning on Dancing up? I do not see a chance for that to happen. I must say that sitting at 339 speed really isn't optimal with the omnipresent Lati formes, Diancie, Lucario, Timid/Jolly Arceus formes everywhere in the metagame. I find that you're just going to die to the faster threat regardless. In fact here are some calcs of my own I prepared that show how great that set is in the current metagame:
0 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 338-398 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 690-812 (208.4 - 245.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 Atk Life Orb Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 333-395 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I'll give you that Ice Punch may be ran solely for this Dragon, but it works)
Whereas you are not going to get to +1 with that set, and in any given opportunity your opponent will just destroy the Mence easily.
The second member of the opposition stated:
No.
Haha, Flying is a great offensive typing and I wholeheartedly agree. What I find hilarious about this is there are a few areas you decided to allow the fully defensive factor of your calcs affect your opponent's attack, whereas they wouldn't need to be fully defensive because of outspeeding reasons. I do like how you acknowledged that many mons, that you state Mega Mence breaks easily, actually win in both a 1v1 situation or in general. Ice Punch MMX will always outspeed and OHKO. It isn't far from standard. You can't get up to +1 on any of these mons. AJA would rely on the fact that they're just going to switch when you send Mence in. Abomasnow breaks you if you Dance unless you choose not to, Gallade Ice Punches and OHKOs while outspeeding your spread, Heracross Rock Blasts on your Dance unless you choose not to, Medicham wins if you Dance, Pinsir speed ties with your set, Venusaur is irrelevant, Beedrill is relevant, there's one, Lopunny Fake Out + Ice Punch, Sceptile outspeeds and OHKOs, Blaziken runs Sash or Protect and OHKOs with Edge, Mewtwo OHKO with Ice Punch and outspeed, Skymin can hax. Can you please redo these calculations without the +1 boost, it's just silly. If you're playing with Beedrill, you have to ensure you don't get forced into a 1v1 with Mega Mence, otherwise +1 will never occur. This is an issue, I agree; but stuff like that is why it's one of the best mons in the metagame.
One could make the argument, that the opposing mons are only using Ice coverage moves to beat Mega Mence, but they're actually standard sets. Before you bring it up AJA, I got it covered dw.
I want you to test Mega Latios in comparison to this Pokemon. I would argue that at +1, Latios OHKOs more than what you've listed. The fact that Salamence can do it, while having issues in doing it isn't assuring to any Mence user.
Test Ho-Oh, Test PDon, Test EKiller, Test GeoXern. Please just don't think Mence is the only mon without a definite counter (Mence actually has reasonable answers)
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 332-392 (74.9 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Rock: 272-320 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In these calcs, Salamence is required to run a Choice Band and maximum Attack. It loses the speed tie to Rock Arceus in the prior calculation. It is then locked into Earthquake and can easily become set up bait by Lati formes and other Flying-type set up Pokémon, which seem to be prevalent in the Megamons metagame. Judgment without investment can pick up an OHKO.
These stats can again be applied to Steel Arceus and Electric Arceus, however they fail to OHKO back. Hence Rock Arceus is the best Pokémon. One may argue, that Rock Arceus would only be ran then to check Mega Salamence, however it is also able to OHKO Ho-Oh and resist all it's attacks, bar Earthquake which can do ~50% maximum. They can all OHKO Mega Salamence if given Ice Beam coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 182-214 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Solrock, an uncommon and somewhat gimmicky Pokémon can wall Mega Salamence's attacks and Will-O-Wisp Mega Salamence. If it chooses to Refresh, it is being ran on a non-Banded set, and hence will not pick up the 2HKO regardless.
However this if we're following the banning philosophy put in place by AllJokesAside and ScorrchingTheaph. That no Pokémon can wall all sets, we have disproved this. Now I go on to further my argument in saying, that I can name many Pokémon where this IS ACTUALLY the case. Name a Pokémon that walls Primal Groudon other than Ground Arceus? I struggle myself due to the immense capabilities of the Pokémon at question. Let's bring up a few calculations.
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arceus-Water: 363-427 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Where all Water Arceus can do back is fire off a weak Ice Beam or hope for ten misses in a row. In the other situation listed above, in any given 1v1 situation, the Rock Arceus would benefit. After one boost of the Mega Salamence, it can get up to the desired attack stat, so don't bring up the possibility of Dragon Dancing to appropriate levels.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 301-355 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 260-306 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's literally offensive Groudon and it's still struggling to do anything effective! WOW! Now let's increase the bulk on that set. Here is standard Ubers support:
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Full physical bulk.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this is also going off the expectation that there are people who run Adamant Choice Band variants of Mega Salamence, which is most likely not the case due to the extra power being redundant if outsped by the Lati formes.
When are we banning PDon again?
You didn't list the counters.
No you're not, especially if you're not running max speed.
Its natural bulk is easily surpassed by many threats in the Megamons metagame due to the evident power creep. It is the same level of a threat, I agree. I only found a need to run one check for Mega Mence, heck I haven't even changed my team since the suspect and I'm still doing great. I think I appreciated your post the most as you acknowledged there are checks, whereas the others chose to skip the part where many Pokemon have this walling capability. There is one part that stood out for me though, is the Mega Rayquaza treatment you speak of. As an avid AG player, I find it disgusting that this is being compared to Mega Rayquaza. There isn't a single Pokemon in Anything Goes that walls every Mega Rayquaza set. Even Fairyceus gets 2HKO by certain Specs sets without being able to pick up the OHKO back. The meta had to adapt heavily to the presence of Mega Rayquaza, and I tend to have the thought that Fairy Arceus would be many ranks lower without its capability to check Mega Rayquaza. There are actually switch-ins to Mence here though, and they come in variety and they have not escalated in usage solely due to the presence of Mence but rather achieve a purpose + wall Mence. Rock Arceus is great for Ho-Oh, Charizards, Yveltal while obtaining Defog capabilities and winning against Lati formes. Skarmory walls the physical attacking sect of the metagame (bar a few mons due to typing and whatnot). E.g. It isn't 2HKOd by a +6 Arceus ExtremeSpeed. I find that rather than the metagame adjusting to Mence, Mence has adjusted to the metagame. The metagame is not threatened to the point that this needs to be banned.So lets get some discussion going...
Mega Salamence is already a force to be reckoned with in the Ubers metagame, acting as a dangerous setup sweeper with Dragon Dance + its good natural bulk that grants it many opportunities to start setting up and just sweep. the transition to MegaMons makes no less of a threat in my eyes, and allowing it to hold an item on top of all its positive traits is truly absurd and gives it the "Mega Rayquaza treatment" I do not think many players would like to have. Whether it be Lum Berry, Life Orb, Sky Plate, Choice Band, Leftovers, etc... all these items give Mega Salamence the unnecessary boost it does not really need to be viable and just pushes it over the edge. Before the suspect, many teams required to run 2-3 checks to it so they are not completely overwhelmed, during the suspect, these checks still exist but to a lesser extent thanks to Mega Salamence not being able to cure itself with Lum or deal extra damage with Life Orb/Sky Plate. Letting Mega Salamence hold an item just increases the power level of the tier and drives the meta to be extremely offensive imo, checks and counters due exist (Skarmory, Mega Aggron, Arceus Rock, Mega Slowbro,etc...) but the unhealthy presence it brings it truly unbearable and undeserving imo. Mega Salamence is already extremely good with its mega stone alone, and making it hold an item just invalidates all balance this meta should try to acheive.
Ban Mega Salamence from holding an item.
I will continue with additional arguments in a separate post, as I doubt this will be enough to shake the bias from the Mence haters.
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Laxpras
One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Gooser just dropped a nuke of a post, but I figured I'd just pop in and address the point about how Mence has no counters. If you guys want to theory sets like an adamant life orbed Mence that is somehow also getting consistent boosts up in this meta, then let me theory this counter:
Tyranitar-Mega @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Crunch
- Pursuit
With an air balloon, you're not getting two earthquakes off, so you're not getting a 2hko, unless you somehow managed to get a clean boost up on a life orbed adamant mence, but really that idea needs to go away thats not working in practice. Then stone edge is an easy OHKO. Also, is your mence really running earthquake? If you're running earthquake, double edge and ddance, you're either foregoing roost, hyper voice, or fire blast. If you're foregoing roost, its easy to just wear you down and beat you with priority. If you don't have hyper voice, slowbro walls you completely. If you don't have fire blast, I can run a damn Bronzong and completely wall you. You don't get to have 6 moves for your theory set, lets keep it realistic
Finally, you want to speak about how much Mence can revenge kill, well, revenge killing isn't a great argument because you're inherently giving yourself the matchup advantage. I could easily turn that argument around on you: Scarf Greninja.
Also, counter confirmed:
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 378-445 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 372-444 (112.3 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tyranitar-Mega @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Crunch
- Pursuit
With an air balloon, you're not getting two earthquakes off, so you're not getting a 2hko, unless you somehow managed to get a clean boost up on a life orbed adamant mence, but really that idea needs to go away thats not working in practice. Then stone edge is an easy OHKO. Also, is your mence really running earthquake? If you're running earthquake, double edge and ddance, you're either foregoing roost, hyper voice, or fire blast. If you're foregoing roost, its easy to just wear you down and beat you with priority. If you don't have hyper voice, slowbro walls you completely. If you don't have fire blast, I can run a damn Bronzong and completely wall you. You don't get to have 6 moves for your theory set, lets keep it realistic
Finally, you want to speak about how much Mence can revenge kill, well, revenge killing isn't a great argument because you're inherently giving yourself the matchup advantage. I could easily turn that argument around on you: Scarf Greninja.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 378-445 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 372-444 (112.3 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I would drop a nuke post myself, but I'm still stuck on how "this can run 8 moves and beat its counters, let's ban it" has somehow become a legitimate banning argument in ANY tier, let alone a tier based on UBERS. I can beat all your pdon counters too. I can beat all your mega mawile counters too. Let's ban them all! I can beat your ekiller check! Ban that too! Ban everything that can beat its counters because that obviously makes them so broken that we need to create a new tier to retain some sort of balance to the metagame (a la mega ray). How is this logical in any sense?
You guys fail to understand the concept of opportunity cost. Mega Ray got past its few checks with ZERO opportunity cost. Laxlapras already illustrated how there is DEFINITELY an opportunity cost for running any move to beat some normal checks/counters. That's a night and day difference that categorizes Mega Ray and Mega Mence. Stop acting like it doesn't exist. I can run TBolt Pdon to get past Blue Orb Skarm in MnM, but that has an opportunity cost; I can't have rocks, roar, or twave. On Mega Ray, you could run v-create, waterfall, extremespeed, draco meteor, etc. without losing any sweeping capability. That is completely different than this example.
Ubers couldn't even ban Mega Gengar. Unless the mon in question completely DESTROYS the competitive metagame as a whole, rendering it basically unplayable, we shouldn't be talking about banning anything.
You guys fail to understand the concept of opportunity cost. Mega Ray got past its few checks with ZERO opportunity cost. Laxlapras already illustrated how there is DEFINITELY an opportunity cost for running any move to beat some normal checks/counters. That's a night and day difference that categorizes Mega Ray and Mega Mence. Stop acting like it doesn't exist. I can run TBolt Pdon to get past Blue Orb Skarm in MnM, but that has an opportunity cost; I can't have rocks, roar, or twave. On Mega Ray, you could run v-create, waterfall, extremespeed, draco meteor, etc. without losing any sweeping capability. That is completely different than this example.
Ubers couldn't even ban Mega Gengar. Unless the mon in question completely DESTROYS the competitive metagame as a whole, rendering it basically unplayable, we shouldn't be talking about banning anything.
ScorrchingTheaph
nO u
Did you even try to recreate my calculations? When I said something didn't kill that was with OPTIMAL offensive stats. My calcs are real and aren't crazily biased like aja. You can double check them and post them if you really want.
First of all, none of my calcs are with the ddance +1 unless explicitly stated. A simple check would have shown you this. I even said: (rest assured that i'm not using +1 Adamant Life Orb Double-Edge after Stealth Rocks
Now you're left with MMX, Lop, Sceptile, and Skymin. All which have a blaring weakness to flying and would be unable to switch-in or check Mega Mence. When Mence gets a safe switch-in/pivot you are forced to sack a mon, or in some cases when you can't OHKO, just let it ddance it's way to victory.
Xern, Arceus-Fairy/Steel are pretty obvious checks to Mega Latios. They resist/are immune to STAB, and Latios is better off running Roost/Defog over Hidden Power just to beat a few mons. Also note that Latios doesn't get any speed boosts and 110 is a mediocre base in such a fast metagame. Latios is probably going to have more issues imo. Just like Mence it lacks priority, but it has less speed and will get a -2 drop if it runs Draco simply for the sake of OHKOing stuff.
For some reason, your calculations appear to be more "biased" than mine. I never used any Adamant Band sets because I know they are not as viable. In fact, I never used Adamant for any calculations.
Arceus with a resist is one good counter, I'll admit. inb4 i regret saying that Solrock though? If PU mons are needed to specifically counter something, doesn't that signify that there may be a bit of a problem? I also don't understand the need for a Pdon v. Arceus-Water calc and it's relevance.
Let's fix the PDon calculations. Previously I mentioned simply Choice Band Double-Edge, but Return works almost just as well:
252 Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
You mentioned getting locked into Earthquake, and becoming setup bait for bird/lati@s, but Return does more due to STAB and -ate. Hmm... Seems like your calcs were a bit biased.
Now what does Pdon do back?
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 246-290 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not bad, but have fun with 80% accuracy and not outspeeding
0 SpA Groudon Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence in Sun: 47-56 (14.1 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO
"whur is muh 30% brn hax"
Groudon Thunder Wave vs. Mega Salamence: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- nice move
"whur is muh 25% para hax"
A nice 2HKO on Pdon doesn't seem like it's "struggling to do anything effective!" when it Pdon can't OHKO it back or even outspeed. WOW! Is that not enough for you Zangooser?
Psssst. It has to run Red Orb. It's called a Mega Restriction. You can see the full list in the first post. :D
You didn't read my post. I will admit that I did not think of Arceus-Rock/Steel/Electric when I wrote my post.
When did I say I wasn't running max speed? I only placed 252 ev's and a neutral nature in the calc. Of course you're free to run full speed.
This part of your post was not addressed towards me, but I would like to say that I agree that Salamence should not be compared to Rayquaza. Comparing it to Gengar-Mega,MMX/Y, and the primals would be better, because of the type of ban we are focusing on. I would also like to say that I have honestly never seem a team with Rock Arceus or Skarm, save the few times I tried skarm. (hazards didn't go well with my need to defog spam)
I also agree that Mence did adjust to the metagame, but it did so by improving it's opportunity to wreck havoc. Item-wise I've seen Lum, LO, Band and moves vary from Sub, Roost, Ddance, Return/Frustration, Double-Edge, EQ, just to name a few.
This is not relevant, but Yveltal sadly does not get Defog. (Defog HM when?)
Gooser just dropped a nuke of a post, but I figured I'd just pop in and address the point about how Mence has no counters. If you guys want to theory sets like an adamant life orbed Mence that is somehow also getting consistent boosts up in this meta, then let me theory this counter:
Tyranitar-Mega @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Crunch
- Pursuit
With an air balloon, you're not getting two earthquakes off, so you're not getting a 2hko, unless you somehow managed to get a clean boost up on a life orbed adamant mence, but really that idea needs to go away thats not working in practice. Then stone edge is an easy OHKO. Also, is your mence really running earthquake? If you're running earthquake, double edge and ddance, you're either foregoing roost, hyper voice, or fire blast. If you're foregoing roost, its easy to just wear you down and beat you with priority. If you don't have hyper voice, slowbro walls you completely. If you don't have fire blast, I can run a damn Bronzong and completely wall you. You don't get to have 6 moves for your theory set, lets keep it realistic
Finally, you want to speak about how much Mence can revenge kill, well, revenge killing isn't a great argument because you're inherently giving yourself the matchup advantage. I could easily turn that argument around on you: Scarf Greninja.
EDIT: tfw ur calcing on a roost. my bad. i apologize. i'm not going to make a second post because the thread is pretty cluttered.
If you even skimmed my post you'd see that I was not using Adamant Life Orb Mence. You'd also see that I already mentioned TTar as a possible counter and gave a counter-set. Brick Break.
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 322-385 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I do think that your set can work because people will see ttar expecting a switch-in and go for EQ. 248 HP TTar then lives Return+EQ.
You mention the fact that there are many sets that can be run. If you just glance at my calcs, you'll see that only 7 are not running the standard set with Jolly LO Return EQ, and in only one of those do I mention ddance. Those sets are designed specifically for it's counters. The rest of the metagame? Still swept by Mega Mence. The opportunity cost is very little by just running the standard set.
Ubers couldn't ban Mega Gengar, but Megamons gave it a Mega Restriction. That means you're saying you want a Mega Gengar item unban, if "we shouldn't be talking about banning anything." Also note the following point that has already been made by goose.
P.S. Zangooser, I liked how u called me and aja "members of opposition"
EDIT 2: I talked to LaxLapras through pm's and apologized. also sorry for being passive aggressive in my post. i dont mean to start drama with anyone here
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The problem that MegaMence faces and the reason it should not be restricted in this meta is that it can set up on virtually nothing. The power creep of this meta combined with the complete absence of stall and abundance of priority means that Mence will rarely if at all get a DD and use it to sweep. Only bulky variants can set up and the power and speed issues that crop up with investing in defense is considerable.
Some Calcs to prove my point of Mence having no setup opportunities.
Calcs are for Jolly Life Orb Mence
Firstly the most common priority moves -
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 142-168 (42.7 - 50.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 127-151 (38.2 - 45.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 101-120 (30.4 - 36.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 97-114 (29.2 - 34.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 125-148 (37.6 - 44.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 152-179 (45.7 - 53.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 170-201 (51.2 - 60.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 265-312 (79.8 - 93.9%)
Edit - As Chopin Alkaninoff mentioned, the "combos" -
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 111-130 (33.4 - 39.1%) followed by -
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 144-171 (43.3 - 51.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 71-86 (21.3 - 25.9%) followed by -
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Lopunny Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 71-86 (21.3 - 25.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 83-99 (25 - 29.8%) followed by -
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 83-99 (25 - 29.8%)
As you can see all these priority moves do around 30-50% on offensive Mence. That means for Mence to sweep it needs to be around 50%(not even considering rocks here). That is assuming your opponent has only one of these guys with all but Absol being very viable in this meta.
So lets see what Mence can set up on and lose only 50% or less HP.
SpA Mega Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 356-420 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 368-436 (110.8 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 202-238 (60.8 - 71.6%)
0 Atk Groudon Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 164-194 (49.3 - 58.4%) (Most Pdons would T-wave or have roar so no point in setting up on it)
0 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 428-506 (128.9 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 272-324 (81.9 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (assuming soul dew and a draco drop)
1 0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 267-315 (80.4 - 94.8%)
196+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 166-196 (50 - 59%)
I can't really think of any other viable mon which Mence can possibly set up on and then hope to sweep.
Of course Mence still hits hard without a boost but it can be revenge-killed or taken out by a bulkier mon.
Therefore i don't think it needs to be restricted or any mon should be. The meta is quite balanced right now actually.
Some Calcs to prove my point of Mence having no setup opportunities.
Calcs are for Jolly Life Orb Mence
Firstly the most common priority moves -
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 142-168 (42.7 - 50.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 127-151 (38.2 - 45.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 101-120 (30.4 - 36.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 97-114 (29.2 - 34.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 125-148 (37.6 - 44.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 152-179 (45.7 - 53.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 170-201 (51.2 - 60.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 265-312 (79.8 - 93.9%)
Edit - As Chopin Alkaninoff mentioned, the "combos" -
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 111-130 (33.4 - 39.1%) followed by -
252+ Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 144-171 (43.3 - 51.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 71-86 (21.3 - 25.9%) followed by -
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Lopunny Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 71-86 (21.3 - 25.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 83-99 (25 - 29.8%) followed by -
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 83-99 (25 - 29.8%)
As you can see all these priority moves do around 30-50% on offensive Mence. That means for Mence to sweep it needs to be around 50%(not even considering rocks here). That is assuming your opponent has only one of these guys with all but Absol being very viable in this meta.
So lets see what Mence can set up on and lose only 50% or less HP.
SpA Mega Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 356-420 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 368-436 (110.8 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 202-238 (60.8 - 71.6%)
0 Atk Groudon Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 164-194 (49.3 - 58.4%) (Most Pdons would T-wave or have roar so no point in setting up on it)
0 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 428-506 (128.9 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 0 SpA Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 272-324 (81.9 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (assuming soul dew and a draco drop)
1 0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 267-315 (80.4 - 94.8%)
196+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 166-196 (50 - 59%)
I can't really think of any other viable mon which Mence can possibly set up on and then hope to sweep.
Of course Mence still hits hard without a boost but it can be revenge-killed or taken out by a bulkier mon.
Therefore i don't think it needs to be restricted or any mon should be. The meta is quite balanced right now actually.
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Pretty good but you need to add some important priority calcs for revenge killing
Mega Kangaskhan:
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 99-118 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 29.3% chance to 3HKO
and then
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 132-157 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You'll deal a minimum of 69.5% damage, means if it got SR and LO damage, it'll die
Yveltal:
28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 153-181 (46 - 54.5%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO
Mega Lopunny (one underrated mon tbh) with dual priority of Fake Out + Quick Attack. It can outspeed and just Ice Punch/Return it if Mence hasn't DD'd yet, but if it has,
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 71-86 (21.3 - 25.9%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO
then
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Lopunny Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 71-86 (21.3 - 25.9%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO
So you'll deal a minimum of 42,6% damage, which is pretty high tbh, assuming you'll usually already been damaged when you try to DD. If you run LO Mega Medicham with Fake Out + Bullet Punch, it does like, 2% higher damage than mega Lop's Fake Out + Quick Attack.
Other possible ways to stop Mega Mence
Thunder Wave: kind of common. It'll be easy to kill once it's Para'd. Usually Defensive Pdon carries one
Will-o-wisp: Defensive Arceus and Giratina (both formes) usually carries this. And this move make pre-mega Sableye worth using.
Reflect: Seriously, this thing made my HO team top the ladder. Deo S is a good lead to set up this, while Klefki acts as a good emergency stop to Mence because of priority. Needs to be used more imo.
Edit: Forgot Mega Glalie, which is underrated imo. People fails to realize that it is NOT walled by Mega Slowbro because Freeze-dry 2HKOs.
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Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
i think the problem here, is like every other meta with ubers before it, we cant seem to understand there is a vast difference between a ubers based meta, and a meta with ubers in it. ubers based is basically "the banlist" of tiers (barring extremities now that its more popularized) Ubers has to be what it is because there is NOTHING in between it and OU. ubers has accepted itself as a "Banlist" meta, and attempting to ban stuff to AG is a HUGE step most uber players probably don't like since it takes away from their meta they grew with and would in result, make ubers a pointless tier "if everything that made ubers, well 'ubers' broken, then why bother having ubers to begin with and just ban everything to AG?" ubers is a banlist. there is no "but AG confirms its a official tier now!" no. stuff that is broken in OU is sent to ubers. there is no "buts" of that point. ubers might have taken away uncompetative attributes in it, but that doesn't change that its still primarily a banlist. and anything goes is literally "anything goes". ubers is a fun tier, but it DOES have ridiculously broken shit in it, because as the "dungeon" of tierlists, it has nowhere else to go.
now, why do i bring this up? because ubers =/= megamons in the slightest, we can BAN those stuff without breaking the non existant tier list we have for this meta. of course, since megamons brings a MASSIVE spike in power, stuff usually broken in ubers wont be here(like xerneas having multiple viable checks and counters now, as opposed to 1 or 2 beforehand). however, what im saying is NEVER EVER EVVVVVVVVER use "its a ubers based tier!" to solidify an argument. if something has the ability to threaten both stall and offense to the extent of being forced to counter it (saying "running ice coverage beats it!" for walls falls into this catigory btw) means it SHOULD be suspected, and is by standards, broken.
now, for some more relivant stuff...im not going to mention offensive calcs, as we already know, mence pretty much ohkos/2hkos everything without boosts.
+1 252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 330-388 (89.9 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(this is the only don spread that runs stone edge)
of course, that means groudon is TECHNICALLY a check to it...a check to it if it doesnt set up...which with its naturally great bulk...isn't something thats hard for mence to do. its a "can check if mence isnt trying to clean up" situation.
now for some more defensive calcs...
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
at first you will tell me "lmao what does showing a potential 2hko solve? it can ohko back!" yes...it can...but it has to 1) force itself to run ice beam(which ISNT good for it in this meta, where dragon types are checked to hell and back with the megas) and 2) predict. yes. bro has to predict. say, if it ice beams and hits...for example...venusaur...its now forced to switch out. which means mence already did its job as if mence comes back in later...you literally have nothing to stop it, thus, your forced to run ANOTHER counter to it.
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
oh hey, we have a counter! except its forced to run avalanche to stand a chance...which again...isnt that amazing when it prefers rock, ground, fire, steel, and other such coverage to actually stand its ground on this meta. ice is a amazing coverage option dont get me wrong, but...not for a steel type, which struggles to hit fire, steel, and water anyways. "why not use stone edge then!" you might ask.
0 Atk Mega Aggron Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 154-182 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
thats why. because it turns you into setup fodder. it can safely roost off that damage and setup to +6 without worry. "why not use roar/dtail!!" ...are you really going to run stone edge, iron head, roar, and stealth rock? okay, maybe you already have a stealth rocker, but even so, i think aggron prefers having better coverage then ice and running roar really doesnt help its 4mss. and it only used ice specificly for salamence...just like bro does. roaring helps vs it, but roaring only does so much for a pokemon especially one that has no reliable recovery. it checks mence, but without ice coverage that it DOESN'T want, its a losing battle. steelix is roughly the same scenario albeit slightly weaker, so i wont bring him up.
the arc god himself:
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 238-282 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
if your neutral weak to mence, you cant switch in. thus, you become a check...not bad, not bad, i can respect that, since it super effectively ohkos back...sometimes. 64 percent chance, still good. but again...you check if it doesn't set up. but again, its pressured to switch in. as if it switches into a double edge, its dead. which means, as you could imagine, it can check mence...if it doesn't set up.
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Arceus-Steel: 190-224 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
this is cm arceus steel, but with 4 more speed ev's to outspeed standard mence. mence potentially 2hkos arc, while arc...
0 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 165-195 (47 - 55.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
can 2hko back...except mence has a way to boost his speed. its basically "who switched in first" that wins in this scenario...whiiiich means again...arc wins...enless it sets up.
its normal for offensive pokemon to "beat" defensive pokemon by setting up. its not however, usual for sweepers to do so even if "its not guarenteed to happen". lets not forget, salamence is a sweeper, meant to clean offense...not stall. and yet its a pretty viable stall breaker WITH ITS SWEEPER SET. and lastly...the "its still a check" argument. yes. they are. but when your team is forced to lose a mon each time mence switches in, your check has failed. even if it manages to ko mence...you still were forced to lose a mon to get it in and/or took HEFTY damage as a result. mence isnt broken because its solely a amazing stallbreaker. mence isnt broken because its a beautiful revenge killer. its broken because it does both effectively and effortlessly. with.one.set. not to mention its set is ALREADY customizable as it is, and it has like...4 other good sets to choose from (mixed scarf, choice band, choice specs, subdd, etc) but those are just "cream to the cake".
hey look! a well thought out argument without blindly attacking anyone or their points to attempt to get their own across! this is coming from like...the only guy in this entire argument that's KNOWN for being hot-headed. come on people. show some modesty to one another. you all make decent points. but i practically cant even read your arguments because of how childish some of them sound (with all due respect).god damn it i just oxymoroned myself by saying this no but seriously, i'm not trying to sound rude here, and attack you guys, you guys made good arguments, but why should i listen to people when they are pulling the "lmao you know nothing which is why i'm winning nanananananana~" card. especially when you have yet to provide decent arguments other then "aja's calcs are wrong" and "ice coverage beats it" it also beats rayquaza, but you don't see that roaming in ou with ice beam slowbro running around. also i know you have provided checks and stuff...but if your constantly forcing AB tyrant in and out...isnt mence technically winning in the end? as your just giving the mence user momentum
a bit of a long one. and a bit heated at the end, but its kinda disappointing that we cant even make decent arguments without attacking one another like your opinions are fact.
now, why do i bring this up? because ubers =/= megamons in the slightest, we can BAN those stuff without breaking the non existant tier list we have for this meta. of course, since megamons brings a MASSIVE spike in power, stuff usually broken in ubers wont be here(like xerneas having multiple viable checks and counters now, as opposed to 1 or 2 beforehand). however, what im saying is NEVER EVER EVVVVVVVVER use "its a ubers based tier!" to solidify an argument. if something has the ability to threaten both stall and offense to the extent of being forced to counter it (saying "running ice coverage beats it!" for walls falls into this catigory btw) means it SHOULD be suspected, and is by standards, broken.
now, for some more relivant stuff...im not going to mention offensive calcs, as we already know, mence pretty much ohkos/2hkos everything without boosts.
+1 252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 330-388 (89.9 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(this is the only don spread that runs stone edge)
of course, that means groudon is TECHNICALLY a check to it...a check to it if it doesnt set up...which with its naturally great bulk...isn't something thats hard for mence to do. its a "can check if mence isnt trying to clean up" situation.
now for some more defensive calcs...
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
at first you will tell me "lmao what does showing a potential 2hko solve? it can ohko back!" yes...it can...but it has to 1) force itself to run ice beam(which ISNT good for it in this meta, where dragon types are checked to hell and back with the megas) and 2) predict. yes. bro has to predict. say, if it ice beams and hits...for example...venusaur...its now forced to switch out. which means mence already did its job as if mence comes back in later...you literally have nothing to stop it, thus, your forced to run ANOTHER counter to it.
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
oh hey, we have a counter! except its forced to run avalanche to stand a chance...which again...isnt that amazing when it prefers rock, ground, fire, steel, and other such coverage to actually stand its ground on this meta. ice is a amazing coverage option dont get me wrong, but...not for a steel type, which struggles to hit fire, steel, and water anyways. "why not use stone edge then!" you might ask.
0 Atk Mega Aggron Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 154-182 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
thats why. because it turns you into setup fodder. it can safely roost off that damage and setup to +6 without worry. "why not use roar/dtail!!" ...are you really going to run stone edge, iron head, roar, and stealth rock? okay, maybe you already have a stealth rocker, but even so, i think aggron prefers having better coverage then ice and running roar really doesnt help its 4mss. and it only used ice specificly for salamence...just like bro does. roaring helps vs it, but roaring only does so much for a pokemon especially one that has no reliable recovery. it checks mence, but without ice coverage that it DOESN'T want, its a losing battle. steelix is roughly the same scenario albeit slightly weaker, so i wont bring him up.
the arc god himself:
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 238-282 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
if your neutral weak to mence, you cant switch in. thus, you become a check...not bad, not bad, i can respect that, since it super effectively ohkos back...sometimes. 64 percent chance, still good. but again...you check if it doesn't set up. but again, its pressured to switch in. as if it switches into a double edge, its dead. which means, as you could imagine, it can check mence...if it doesn't set up.
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Arceus-Steel: 190-224 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
this is cm arceus steel, but with 4 more speed ev's to outspeed standard mence. mence potentially 2hkos arc, while arc...
0 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 165-195 (47 - 55.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
can 2hko back...except mence has a way to boost his speed. its basically "who switched in first" that wins in this scenario...whiiiich means again...arc wins...enless it sets up.
its normal for offensive pokemon to "beat" defensive pokemon by setting up. its not however, usual for sweepers to do so even if "its not guarenteed to happen". lets not forget, salamence is a sweeper, meant to clean offense...not stall. and yet its a pretty viable stall breaker WITH ITS SWEEPER SET. and lastly...the "its still a check" argument. yes. they are. but when your team is forced to lose a mon each time mence switches in, your check has failed. even if it manages to ko mence...you still were forced to lose a mon to get it in and/or took HEFTY damage as a result. mence isnt broken because its solely a amazing stallbreaker. mence isnt broken because its a beautiful revenge killer. its broken because it does both effectively and effortlessly. with.one.set. not to mention its set is ALREADY customizable as it is, and it has like...4 other good sets to choose from (mixed scarf, choice band, choice specs, subdd, etc) but those are just "cream to the cake".
hey look! a well thought out argument without blindly attacking anyone or their points to attempt to get their own across! this is coming from like...the only guy in this entire argument that's KNOWN for being hot-headed. come on people. show some modesty to one another. you all make decent points. but i practically cant even read your arguments because of how childish some of them sound (with all due respect).
a bit of a long one. and a bit heated at the end, but its kinda disappointing that we cant even make decent arguments without attacking one another like your opinions are fact.
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ScorrchingTheaph
nO u
Mega Mence doesn't need to set up. It's just is gets even better if it does. Going off of Lcass's point though, checks require plays, and you are forced to play conservatively with the mega mence checks you run simply because it is so powerful.
Pinsir: Getting locked into Quick Attack seems like a nice way to get revenged too.
Absol: Mence avoids a revenge by getting a free switch on sucker, or predicting pursuit and OHKO'ing.
Mawile: Not the greatest because you are now required to make plays. By not suckering, you could take massive damage. By sucker punching, you risk a free switch-in.
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Mawile: 252-299 (82.8 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yveltal: Sucker requires plays, and you are should be playing conservatively.
Arceus, Lucario, Metagross, Scizor, Kang, and Lopunny is now what you are left with. These are decent mons, but remember, you you stated was the the opponent needed to run at least one simply to revenge mence. Now if mence switched out on the turn you tried to revenge, you are now forced back out in the fear of mence coming back in at a later time.
The calcs you listed for Slowbro, Aggron, Sableye, Groudon show that they are checks for the standard set. They can switch in at full HP, but they get easily withered into revenge kill zones. They still take large amounts of damage. It has been already mentioned that different mence sets can beat them too.
You gave calcs for Giratina-O, Mega Latias, and Ho-oh, but they are obviously not safe switch-ins and mence won't switch in on one with full HP. It's very limiting if you want to make a full team where mence won't be able to switch in. Mence can still revenge them if they are at low enough HP, and because of the sheer damage dealing capabilities, something has to die. For Yveltal and Ho-oh, Mence still can get away with a kill if needed 1v1. It can't ddance, but return 2HKO's.
btw, the damage calc does not apply Soul Dew boosts to Mega Lati@s, so it you have to use Specs/AV to get the calcs. If you meant to just use the -1 instead of -2 to make the difference, it's not the same. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means the calc should look like:
-2 0 SpA Choice Specs Mega Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 306-362 (92.1 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Please give an argument on how Psong trapping MGengar with sash doesnt sound broken. And how does LO/Choice PDon or POgre sound? I want to hear a bit more of an argument for this point because I don't really understand your viewpoint.
I agree but, item mence is banned right now actually (for testing), so I think we can dismiss that arguement.
Hi, just passing by...
I don't see how it's that hard to imagine that mence can dd on a switch, sure you can leave your heracross / ho-oh / diancie / lucario / idk what in, but do you want to? Even then if mence clicks return / eq worst case scenario you lose a mon, best case you go on your defensive mon and you have to heal and mence user gains momentum anyway.
An important thing to point out I think is that mence manages to be potentially broken and spawn a huge debate with one set, yet it has a lot of viable sets all taking eachothers counters out, including really good mixed sets.
And why was solrock brought up lmao? This thing is teribad.
Other than that ppl also seem to assume mence can click life orb double edge 74 times without dropping. Factor rocks and helmet mence can be worn down pretty fast.
I don't see how it's that hard to imagine that mence can dd on a switch, sure you can leave your heracross / ho-oh / diancie / lucario / idk what in, but do you want to? Even then if mence clicks return / eq worst case scenario you lose a mon, best case you go on your defensive mon and you have to heal and mence user gains momentum anyway.
An important thing to point out I think is that mence manages to be potentially broken and spawn a huge debate with one set, yet it has a lot of viable sets all taking eachothers counters out, including really good mixed sets.
And why was solrock brought up lmao? This thing is teribad.
Other than that ppl also seem to assume mence can click life orb double edge 74 times without dropping. Factor rocks and helmet mence can be worn down pretty fast.
This suspect got more attention than i thought it would. Especially after zangooser's post which basically explained everything and showed mega-salamence isn't op enough to be "banned"(as in it needs salamencite to mega). The argument it 2OHKOs the whole meta is wrong imo. As zangooser said, all these calcs take into account that mega-salamence can set up which is actually extremely difficult in megamons (Humblespaceman showed it).
I am not gonna tell why it's not broken, as i just said it has already been done. I just want to answer to Lcass post.
First, your calcs are with double-edge. If you use double-edge against a primal-groudon with only 104hp (you mention that's the spread if stone edge). Uh why run stone edge to check for a salamence when you can have t-wave or roar? Also the double edge recoil must be quite annoying since any priority probably kills you afterwards and if not it will die with you (you lost 2, opponent lost 1 doesn't seem that great for a poke which is supposed to be broken imo). And i haven't even talked abour stealth rock against which it loses 25% or rocky helmet.
The double-edge calcs should not even be taken into account since you just kill your salamence super fast and most of the time take 1 poke out. Except if band, then it has some use i guess (you need prediction then though).
You also mention slowbro-mega with ice beam and say you are forced to run it. Again slowbro-mega set usually is scald/slack off/toxic or thunder wave/ iron defense or ice beam. Be it iron defense or ice beam both counter mega-salamence even at +1 life orb return :
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 235-278 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 118-140 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
You need 2 high rolls and even then it's not sure it will kill. You say that it can hit and then switch, yeah implying there aren't rocks. Also "predict"? Predict what? it can just slack off and if you did dd or return slowbro can still take care of you after.
I won't comment on aggron mega. It can take hits but yeah it's just bad due to it's moveset as you mentioned. It will counter it but makes you lose momentum each time, it can run d-tail/roar to avoid that though. (It still counters salamence)
Once again for arceus your calc is with double-edge, sure we can say double-edge 2OHKOs the whole meta but you die too, what's the point? If return, arceus can survive in most cases.
And i just realized i put adamant on salamence which makes the calcs stronger than it should...
In my opinion each poke you have needs to have something that can annoy salamence. That doesn't mean ice beam on everything but status or heavy damage move is enough and those things are totally normal in megamons. This is not even something specific for salamence but for each set up poke (lucario, blaziken,p-don,...)
And once again (i have mentioned it so many times) salamence has a hard time setting up and if it does, well then you take a specifc counter like slowbro-mega and you are fine. I have played megamons a lot and i have never had any problem with salamence-mega tbh for all those reasons.
I repeat once again that i think everything has been covered with zangooser post, just wanted to answer to the new critics that arose since i didn't agree with them.
I am not gonna tell why it's not broken, as i just said it has already been done. I just want to answer to Lcass post.
First, your calcs are with double-edge. If you use double-edge against a primal-groudon with only 104hp (you mention that's the spread if stone edge). Uh why run stone edge to check for a salamence when you can have t-wave or roar? Also the double edge recoil must be quite annoying since any priority probably kills you afterwards and if not it will die with you (you lost 2, opponent lost 1 doesn't seem that great for a poke which is supposed to be broken imo). And i haven't even talked abour stealth rock against which it loses 25% or rocky helmet.
The double-edge calcs should not even be taken into account since you just kill your salamence super fast and most of the time take 1 poke out. Except if band, then it has some use i guess (you need prediction then though).
You also mention slowbro-mega with ice beam and say you are forced to run it. Again slowbro-mega set usually is scald/slack off/toxic or thunder wave/ iron defense or ice beam. Be it iron defense or ice beam both counter mega-salamence even at +1 life orb return :
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 235-278 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 118-140 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
You need 2 high rolls and even then it's not sure it will kill. You say that it can hit and then switch, yeah implying there aren't rocks. Also "predict"? Predict what? it can just slack off and if you did dd or return slowbro can still take care of you after.
I won't comment on aggron mega. It can take hits but yeah it's just bad due to it's moveset as you mentioned. It will counter it but makes you lose momentum each time, it can run d-tail/roar to avoid that though. (It still counters salamence)
Once again for arceus your calc is with double-edge, sure we can say double-edge 2OHKOs the whole meta but you die too, what's the point? If return, arceus can survive in most cases.
And i just realized i put adamant on salamence which makes the calcs stronger than it should...
In my opinion each poke you have needs to have something that can annoy salamence. That doesn't mean ice beam on everything but status or heavy damage move is enough and those things are totally normal in megamons. This is not even something specific for salamence but for each set up poke (lucario, blaziken,p-don,...)
And once again (i have mentioned it so many times) salamence has a hard time setting up and if it does, well then you take a specifc counter like slowbro-mega and you are fine. I have played megamons a lot and i have never had any problem with salamence-mega tbh for all those reasons.
I repeat once again that i think everything has been covered with zangooser post, just wanted to answer to the new critics that arose since i didn't agree with them.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
yeah, i see what you mean, and you make good points, for groudon i was mostly using the "standard" uber sets. (one being offensive rock polish, the other being SR) which neither commonly run twave but i do know twave is used on some primal dons. but other then that, i just want to bring up exactly what i said in the last post, in that the mence i was using isn't a wall breaker. i run double edge calcs because vs offense, that is the optimal attack, as it gains more KO's that way then life orbed return does, while not sacrificing too much hp, (as with 80 hp ev's(which lets it outpace 110's for anyone curious) it can actually afford to use double edge more then enough times per game. return is better for a more stallbreaking based set, but i was using the "Standard dragon dance" that ubers pulls, which to my experience, holds its ground just as effectively as it does in ubers even without intimidate and the power creep. setting up DD's isn't as hard, and tbh, isnt even really nessisary, as versus offense, mence outspeeds a lot of the common mons, and pretty much ohkos anything that lacks investment. versus bulky teams, mence has more then enough opportunities to set up reliably. and the double edge recoil doesnt matter much when it potentially gets 1 or 2 kills a game when used properly. and your kind of overestimating double edges recoil, i assure you, with 80 hp evs, double edging slowbros did not chip a lot of hp from mence for example, mence has 351 hp with my spread, ohkoing slowbro with it deals 131 which although is above 25% thats still respectable, especially if you use it late game when its already weakened. its not "optimal" vs defensive mons, but again, double edge is better suited against offense anyways. its just a nifty thing vs defensive mons. also when deciding counters, you must take into account rocks since they are pretty common. im just going by the book here...
and as for bro, thunder wave bro is a thing yeah, i forgot about that. but ive never seen iron defense to be completely honest...but anyways, my mence isn't designed for wallbreaking as i pointed out. its just a sweeper that can scare counters after 1 turn of setup. if i wanted a wallbreaker, id just run choice band or mixed, as you said. this is a "Typical sweeper" mence, which happens to be able to hold its own vs defensive pokemon.
to be honest, i would kind of like a bit more time with mence unbanned, because it was banned from Megamons pretty quickly and i only got like, a weeks worth of usage out of it. (and i want to try a weird mixed scarf mence i was planning on using). but from my short time using it, it seemed like the entire meta was forced to have 2 ways of dealing with it, while both of them being forced to run a specific move to stop them, as now i dont see ice beam slowbro, or avalanche aggron nearly as much as before. but as i said, a week isnt much to go on.
sorry for the run on sentences and the kinda bad formatting, but im kinda being rushed here.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
So I started playing this meta today, and I thought I'd put down some general thoughts on the meta as well as the suspect itself. I don't ladder much and I'm not great at laddering (I often don't even go 10-0 on the mono ladder lol), but as of right now I'm 22-0 (21 of those being ladder games, one a challenge vs. gooser), as well as #34 on the ladder (not much, but I built my first team ten hours ago lol).
These ideas may not be new, but I thought they could do with being brought up again, and being looked at a little in the light of the suspect.
The first thing to note is that when people see this meta, they think "megas". Which is understandable, but not a great way to win. What you should be thinking is "ubers with a few other threats". About half my games I've won with a rock polish p-don sweep, and about half I've won with a geoxern sweep. Darkrai has gotten about as many KOs as Mega Latias, and while Mega Lucario and Mega Diancie make for a great revenge killer and a great lead, they're not what are winning me the games.
I guess the relevance of this to the suspect would be that calcing mega mence vs. mega venusaur isn't exactly relevant. Calc it against a good wall like lugia, as well as pokemon people might actually try to beat it with like Scarf Mega Metagross
The second thing to point out is that defensive items really don't add much. Eviolite is clearly irrelevant and AV, while usable, can often turn a mon into setup bait for things like, I don't know, rock polish p-don or geoxern, to name a few. (I've seen a few AV Mega TTars around, and I have to say that roar, stealth rock and/or twave would be waaaay nicer in many situations). Leftovers is a nice thing to add if there's no better item out there, but let's face it: Leftovers Slowbro does basically the same thing as Slowbronite Slowbro. It gains a little health, which isn't particularly relevant, and it's a bit weaker to knock off, which also isn't really relevant. And the reason you're not using Mega Slowbro in ubers isn't exactly that you can only use one mega, is it? I think there's a good reason that I haven't really seen that many Mega Gengars despite them destroying an entire playstyle and no longer preventing you from having other megas. From what I've seen, it's a pretty offensive meta, if only because Choice items and Life Orb add so much to a Mega compared to the measly recovery of Leftovers.
The relevance of this to mega mence is pretty much that it won't get a chance to set up. My team has 0 counters and 5 checks to the mon, and I didn't particularly teambuild with it in mind. It's important not to be weak to the mon, sure, but I don't see any difference between that and pretty much any mon in ubers. Also, it's worth noting that I've got a team with mega salamence, in which I chose to give it a mega stone in order to use Intimidate to my advantage as it seemed more useful than any item. I don't think Mega Salamence needs a ban, nor do I think there's a huge difference in ability between it holding an item and it holding a mega stone.
My next point is very relevant to Mega Salamence: The meta is, when viewed through the eyes of someone used to more standard tiers, unbalanced. I play AG so I know that metas with an ubers-esque balance can be just as fun as one where the primary objective is balance, but there are a few outstanding mons. Mega Salamence is one of these, but it's certainly not at the top of the list. GeoXern is a big one, and Ekiller is strong as ever. Soul Dew Mega Latias (and Latios) are probably the best megas out there - with soul dew they're viable in AG so I'll assume they're viable in ubers, and gaining the base stats of their mega formes helps a whole load as well. Primal Groudon is a generally solid mon whose only loss in this meta that I can see is that Mega Latias is a whole load better.
This links in quite nicely to my final point: Mega Pokemon simply aren't that good in this metagame. People go into it thinking that's what this is about, when actually this is ubers with a small number of extra relevant pokemon. Let me make some examples.
Scarf and Specs Gardevoir are things I've seen a few times on the ladder. As a mono player, I can see why scarf mega garde would seem like a good idea: Scarf gardevoir is a popular revenge killer on fairy teams, and everyone knows how good mega garde is at wallbreaking. And to wall specs mega garde, you'd need a very good specially bulky fairy resist! The only problem though is this: Xerneas exists. With Fairy Aura, they have similar damage output. Moreover, Xern has a non-zero HP and defense stat, and even if it's not running the super-awesome geomancy set your opponent will be forced to play conservatively because they don't yet know that. This, combined with some nice options such as rock slide taking out ho-oh, make it the better choice 99% of the time.
Another example might be Mega Charizard X. It's a neat sweeper in standard tiers, and now it can hold something! Only... it doesn't actually do much. Even if it does get the chance to set up (hint: it won't), its damage output isn't a whole load more impressive than Ho-Oh which, while plenty slower, has the typing and bulk to check things like xern and support p-don, while regen allows gives you a lot more room for manoeuvre and the nifty 47.5% burn from sacred fire isn't to be sniffed at, considering that's at the same time as it pummeling something with its decent attack stat.
There are plenty of times when megas are still worthwhile, don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed playing around with sash lead diancie and cb luke, and latias is outright good. But I'm not sure there's that much reason to be running more than perhaps three of them. I very much see it as ubers plus a few megas, rather than megas plus a few ubers.
Bringing this back to the last point I was discussing, about how the tier is balanced and very ubers-esque. I'd like to know what the intention was in terms of number of ubers vs. number of megas, especially considering the OP contains this:
In any case, I should probably add this in large text so people read it as they scroll through the last 3/4 of my post at lightning speed (by the way, congratulations on making it this far!):
tl;dr Mega Salamence is no more broken than other pokemon in the tier, so to be consistent we either need to ban a lot of mons or not ban it.
Edit for clarity: Yeah, I know it'd be nerfed not banned. I chose my words carelessly perhaps, but I don't think that makes my point any less valid.
These ideas may not be new, but I thought they could do with being brought up again, and being looked at a little in the light of the suspect.
The first thing to note is that when people see this meta, they think "megas". Which is understandable, but not a great way to win. What you should be thinking is "ubers with a few other threats". About half my games I've won with a rock polish p-don sweep, and about half I've won with a geoxern sweep. Darkrai has gotten about as many KOs as Mega Latias, and while Mega Lucario and Mega Diancie make for a great revenge killer and a great lead, they're not what are winning me the games.
I guess the relevance of this to the suspect would be that calcing mega mence vs. mega venusaur isn't exactly relevant. Calc it against a good wall like lugia, as well as pokemon people might actually try to beat it with like Scarf Mega Metagross
The second thing to point out is that defensive items really don't add much. Eviolite is clearly irrelevant and AV, while usable, can often turn a mon into setup bait for things like, I don't know, rock polish p-don or geoxern, to name a few. (I've seen a few AV Mega TTars around, and I have to say that roar, stealth rock and/or twave would be waaaay nicer in many situations). Leftovers is a nice thing to add if there's no better item out there, but let's face it: Leftovers Slowbro does basically the same thing as Slowbronite Slowbro. It gains a little health, which isn't particularly relevant, and it's a bit weaker to knock off, which also isn't really relevant. And the reason you're not using Mega Slowbro in ubers isn't exactly that you can only use one mega, is it? I think there's a good reason that I haven't really seen that many Mega Gengars despite them destroying an entire playstyle and no longer preventing you from having other megas. From what I've seen, it's a pretty offensive meta, if only because Choice items and Life Orb add so much to a Mega compared to the measly recovery of Leftovers.
The relevance of this to mega mence is pretty much that it won't get a chance to set up. My team has 0 counters and 5 checks to the mon, and I didn't particularly teambuild with it in mind. It's important not to be weak to the mon, sure, but I don't see any difference between that and pretty much any mon in ubers. Also, it's worth noting that I've got a team with mega salamence, in which I chose to give it a mega stone in order to use Intimidate to my advantage as it seemed more useful than any item. I don't think Mega Salamence needs a ban, nor do I think there's a huge difference in ability between it holding an item and it holding a mega stone.
My next point is very relevant to Mega Salamence: The meta is, when viewed through the eyes of someone used to more standard tiers, unbalanced. I play AG so I know that metas with an ubers-esque balance can be just as fun as one where the primary objective is balance, but there are a few outstanding mons. Mega Salamence is one of these, but it's certainly not at the top of the list. GeoXern is a big one, and Ekiller is strong as ever. Soul Dew Mega Latias (and Latios) are probably the best megas out there - with soul dew they're viable in AG so I'll assume they're viable in ubers, and gaining the base stats of their mega formes helps a whole load as well. Primal Groudon is a generally solid mon whose only loss in this meta that I can see is that Mega Latias is a whole load better.
This links in quite nicely to my final point: Mega Pokemon simply aren't that good in this metagame. People go into it thinking that's what this is about, when actually this is ubers with a small number of extra relevant pokemon. Let me make some examples.
Scarf and Specs Gardevoir are things I've seen a few times on the ladder. As a mono player, I can see why scarf mega garde would seem like a good idea: Scarf gardevoir is a popular revenge killer on fairy teams, and everyone knows how good mega garde is at wallbreaking. And to wall specs mega garde, you'd need a very good specially bulky fairy resist! The only problem though is this: Xerneas exists. With Fairy Aura, they have similar damage output. Moreover, Xern has a non-zero HP and defense stat, and even if it's not running the super-awesome geomancy set your opponent will be forced to play conservatively because they don't yet know that. This, combined with some nice options such as rock slide taking out ho-oh, make it the better choice 99% of the time.
Another example might be Mega Charizard X. It's a neat sweeper in standard tiers, and now it can hold something! Only... it doesn't actually do much. Even if it does get the chance to set up (hint: it won't), its damage output isn't a whole load more impressive than Ho-Oh which, while plenty slower, has the typing and bulk to check things like xern and support p-don, while regen allows gives you a lot more room for manoeuvre and the nifty 47.5% burn from sacred fire isn't to be sniffed at, considering that's at the same time as it pummeling something with its decent attack stat.
There are plenty of times when megas are still worthwhile, don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed playing around with sash lead diancie and cb luke, and latias is outright good. But I'm not sure there's that much reason to be running more than perhaps three of them. I very much see it as ubers plus a few megas, rather than megas plus a few ubers.
Bringing this back to the last point I was discussing, about how the tier is balanced and very ubers-esque. I'd like to know what the intention was in terms of number of ubers vs. number of megas, especially considering the OP contains this:
It seems to me like the meta was intended to be far less ubers-y than I think it is. Whether tiering policy (whether to ban geoxern and pdon for example) should change because of that is another question entirely though and I don't see it being very likely.
In any case, I should probably add this in large text so people read it as they scroll through the last 3/4 of my post at lightning speed (by the way, congratulations on making it this far!):
tl;dr Mega Salamence is no more broken than other pokemon in the tier, so to be consistent we either need to ban a lot of mons or not ban it.
Edit for clarity: Yeah, I know it'd be nerfed not banned. I chose my words carelessly perhaps, but I don't think that makes my point any less valid.
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All your above arguments are based on the fact that the Mence player is a brilliant player making flawless predictions and knows the sets beforehand.
You don't know if the Pinsir has a band, it could very well be a SD Pinsir and predicting your switch, your opponent gets a SD and he can sweep.
Same thing for Absol and the sucker mind-games. Absol can SD when you DD and proceed to sweep as well. Mawile can sub or SD and so on. Don't assume that you''l be able to always beat these mons because of a particular play. The opposite could happen too.
There are a lot of great SR setters and Mence is not going to be able to freely switch out without some drawbacks. Between SR and LO/Double Edge recoil, Mence quickly finds itself in the "picking" off zone.
These mons are not meant to be switch ins. I was proving to you that Mence can not setup on any mons in the meta.
Again these weren't switch ins.
Damn i didn't realize that.Thanks will change it.
Woah sorry if i didn't express myself clearly but I meant that there is no need for any more restrictions. The primals or Mega-Gengs are broken with an item, I fully accept that.
Ah I'd forgotten about the suspect as I stopped using Mence after a while. I was referring to when it wasn't restricted.
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A strawman tactic is when you argue a point that hasn't been made, an example of this: Arguing Ubers and Megamons hold a different ban philospophy so we shouldn't ban Mega mence, when we're arguing the restriction of Mega Mence, to better improve for a healthier metagame). I could go a plethora of different routes, but arguing back and forward in huge posts do nothing besides cluttering. Keep it short, keep it simple. Because a calc isn't going to prove much, I see that now. We've all played the metagame. We all know Mega Mence has zero counters between its main sets, Choice band, Defensive Dragon dance, Offensive dragon and Mixed wall-breaker. So I'm not going to bicker over that shit.
It's outstanding that you attempt to argue a point that is essentially mute, because Mega Salamence doesn't have any counters. None. Every set you throw out, we will throw another back at you, getting nowhere. Instead you could argue that Mega Salamence
that Mega salamence isn't centralising, or that it's healthy for the metagame. That's a route you could take, instead of trying to argue that Mega Salamence has counters. Because it doesn't. You want me to show you?
So I'm going of three main sets, and then those sets have variations in EVs and items. I will put the conditions in the conditions of which I put a counter in. Stealth rocks up. Wins regardless of the set, because you don't know which set it use. I'm not acknowledging roar, because yes, while you break it for now you're prolonging the problem.
List of "counters", sets they use and why they lose. From most important to least important.
On the conversation of checks, I hear the argument "The metagame is made out of checks" a lot. Well, not really. There's a difference between a defensive checks and counters, i'd be more inclined to call the pokemon above soft counters, while they beat one-two sets, all of them lose to one or more sets as well.
But checks aren't reliable. That is what makes them checks. Shuca berry Dialga is a check, but it can't risk the Eq on the switch. Choice banded Glalie is a check, but loses to return on the switch. They are inherently unreliable.
Defensive Dragon Dance, if they don't expect it and go for their priority move...
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-107 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 110-133 (27.9 - 33.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 88-107 (22.3 - 27.2%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO
28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 50/50
252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 68-81 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 3HKO 50/50
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 79-94 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO Sub
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 192-227 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
168 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 286-337 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 114-136 (29 - 34.6%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO
(Arceus doesn't run Adamant, if you're going to critic me for using "biased sets" don't do it yourself)
This also nicely ignores the fact that Its wallbreaker sets all pokemon before they can attack. And that Defensive Dragon Dance can run leftovers.
And what if you're running Lum berry? That opens up plethora of various options for setting up, you can set up on Ho-oh, P-don, Klefki ect.
To argue that Mega Salamence doesn't get to set up is such a biased, piece of shit argument to make. Personally I set up once a game, 70% of the time. I've also lost multiple time. I EVEN FOUGHT AGAINST Zangooser 's MEGA SALAMENCE PROOF SET, AND NOT ONLY DID I BUT HE SET UP WITH HIS OWN MEGA SALAMENCE AND SWEPT ME! Hahahaha. Fucking hell, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 136-160 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So you're literally roosted up on until he wants to kill you, what a great check. Most of the supposed "priority" users can just be roosted on and set up further on, because priority moves might pick him of if he's weakened, but they sure as hell aren't putting up enough offensive presence to deter him from roosting up on you. Only priority move thats relevant ( I THINK ) is Mega Glalie in that sense.
Klefki is probably your best bet for Mega Salamence... if you're running like...
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Magnet Rise
- Reflect
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunder Wave
Which literally menas Pdon switches in you every single time you come in, you forget he existed, no? (Sorry didn't mean to be hostile chopin). But yeah, klefki can be annoying, but Dazzling gleam a) isn't standard, it wants Play rough to break xerneas's substitues, and b) doesn't 2hko
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So yet again, if it wants to with its DD, roost, refresh, return set it can set up to +6 +6 in both stats before it attacks. Foul play might be your best bet here, but then you don't pressure special attackers... At all. Plus wall-breaker fire blasts/eqs and fries the keys of destiny.
T-wave and Will o Wisp = Refresh/Substitute/Lum berry
I really didn't have to make this post Zangooser because we're friends, but if you're going to make such a biased post, with such nitpicky, strawman arguments... Well I don't know what to say, this was hurtful.
Read this part if you don't want to read the wall
The biggest problem I have with Mega Salamence is that Mega Salamence is already the third best pokemon in the game. If we're going by Official tiers and rankings, Its Mega Rayquaza, Primal groudon, Mega Salamence. And what we have here is lack of consistency. Mega MMY and MMX are in the B ranks. They're horrible in ubers, but yet here they aren't allowed to hold an item, but a Mega that's S rank is? And Primal groudon, is at S+ so we restricted it. What's the consistency here? If defensive items don't add much compared to offensive ones and MMY and MMX are offensive megas, why are they, sitting in B rank not allowed to carry an item when Mega Salamence is? Is this the pattern?
S+ = No item
S = Item
B = No item
What makes MMY and MMX so broken that they can't have an item, but Mega Salamence, which is already leagues better, is allowed to hold one? Is one item enough to break a pokemon? I don't think so. None of them should be allowed to hold one, or all of them should. Or Mega mence shouldn't, Don shouldn't and MMx/MMy should.
Please restrict Mega Salamence from holding an item
It's outstanding that you attempt to argue a point that is essentially mute, because Mega Salamence doesn't have any counters. None. Every set you throw out, we will throw another back at you, getting nowhere. Instead you could argue that Mega Salamence
that Mega salamence isn't centralising, or that it's healthy for the metagame. That's a route you could take, instead of trying to argue that Mega Salamence has counters. Because it doesn't. You want me to show you?
So I'm going of three main sets, and then those sets have variations in EVs and items. I will put the conditions in the conditions of which I put a counter in. Stealth rocks up. Wins regardless of the set, because you don't know which set it use. I'm not acknowledging roar, because yes, while you break it for now you're prolonging the problem.
Offensive Dragon dance
Salamence-Mega @ Life Orb/Sharp beak/Leftovers/Yatche Berry/Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration/Double-edge
- Earthquake
- Roost/Brick break/Refresh/
Wallbreaker
Salamence-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast/Hyper voice/Hydro pump
- Double-Edge/Frustration
- Roost
- Earthquake
Defensive Dragon dance
Salamence-Mega @ Sharp Beak/Leftovers
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Atk / 24 Def / 68 Spe
Impish Nature
- Double-Edge
- Refresh/Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
Salamence-Mega @ Life Orb/Sharp beak/Leftovers/Yatche Berry/Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration/Double-edge
- Earthquake
- Roost/Brick break/Refresh/
Wallbreaker
Salamence-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast/Hyper voice/Hydro pump
- Double-Edge/Frustration
- Roost
- Earthquake
Defensive Dragon dance
Salamence-Mega @ Sharp Beak/Leftovers
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Atk / 24 Def / 68 Spe
Impish Nature
- Double-Edge
- Refresh/Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
List of "counters", sets they use and why they lose. From most important to least important.
Aggron-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Heavy Slam
- Avalanche
- Stealth Rock
Defensive dragon dance and mixed offensive beats Mega Aggron, Offensive DD loses
Vs Mixed
4 SpA Life Orb Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs DDD
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Aggron can't 2hko when Avalanche is 60 Base power as seen above, this means that Mega Salamence can set up DDs in its face, when it gets to low you can roost and where Avalanche will do less than 25%. If you have Refresh then T-wave isn't to much of a problem, if its substitute it'll be trickier with predictions. But if you get a substitute up Mega aggron wont be able to break the sub. So your choice is between stalling out its Avalanches, and then setting up dragon dances until you wear it down. Heavy slam has the same BP as Avalanche
Arceus with a flying resistance (rock, steel or electric)
Judgement OHKOs and that's all that matters, if its Steel or electric it should be running ice beam.
So there's two spreads of Arceus-rock, either you're going to try to speed tie, 252/252 timid or 252/252 bold. The thing is, it's a 50/50.
You lose to offensive dragon dance, without it sacrificing really anything. If its timid then you get OHKOd after rocks
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 395-465 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
and if you're bold you get 2hkod on the switch!
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 195-231 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Arceus with a super effective stab, but no flying resistance
bold
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 220-261 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
timid
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fairy: 391-461 (88.2 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Tyranitar + Air balloon
You lose to wallbreaker if it clicks double edge on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Minimum rolls on both moves means you lose 96% health after rocks, but Mega Tyranitar is one of the better checks to Mega Salamence
Defensive Lugia
You lose to Offensive dragon dance after rocks 100% of the time. You also lose to Wallbreaker on the switch.
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 203-239 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 238-281 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Double edge + Life orb is a bad idea for sweepers, for wallbreakers you get more leg room to recover along the way, and your purpose is essentially to break walls, not sweep)
Mega Slowbro
Wallbreaker
4 SpA Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Mega Slowbro: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Primal groudon
Wallbreaker
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally can't touch Defensive DD, Stone edge does nothing, T-wave/Toxic is refreshed or subbed on. Already gone over roar.
Offensive DD 2hkos on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Heavy Slam
- Avalanche
- Stealth Rock
Defensive dragon dance and mixed offensive beats Mega Aggron, Offensive DD loses
Vs Mixed
4 SpA Life Orb Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs DDD
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Aggron can't 2hko when Avalanche is 60 Base power as seen above, this means that Mega Salamence can set up DDs in its face, when it gets to low you can roost and where Avalanche will do less than 25%. If you have Refresh then T-wave isn't to much of a problem, if its substitute it'll be trickier with predictions. But if you get a substitute up Mega aggron wont be able to break the sub. So your choice is between stalling out its Avalanches, and then setting up dragon dances until you wear it down. Heavy slam has the same BP as Avalanche
Arceus with a flying resistance (rock, steel or electric)
Judgement OHKOs and that's all that matters, if its Steel or electric it should be running ice beam.
So there's two spreads of Arceus-rock, either you're going to try to speed tie, 252/252 timid or 252/252 bold. The thing is, it's a 50/50.
You lose to offensive dragon dance, without it sacrificing really anything. If its timid then you get OHKOd after rocks
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 395-465 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
and if you're bold you get 2hkod on the switch!
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 195-231 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Arceus with a super effective stab, but no flying resistance
bold
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 220-261 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
timid
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fairy: 391-461 (88.2 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Tyranitar + Air balloon
You lose to wallbreaker if it clicks double edge on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Minimum rolls on both moves means you lose 96% health after rocks, but Mega Tyranitar is one of the better checks to Mega Salamence
Defensive Lugia
You lose to Offensive dragon dance after rocks 100% of the time. You also lose to Wallbreaker on the switch.
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 203-239 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 238-281 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Double edge + Life orb is a bad idea for sweepers, for wallbreakers you get more leg room to recover along the way, and your purpose is essentially to break walls, not sweep)
Mega Slowbro
Wallbreaker
4 SpA Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Mega Slowbro: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Primal groudon
Wallbreaker
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally can't touch Defensive DD, Stone edge does nothing, T-wave/Toxic is refreshed or subbed on. Already gone over roar.
Offensive DD 2hkos on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Salamence Frustration vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On the conversation of checks, I hear the argument "The metagame is made out of checks" a lot. Well, not really. There's a difference between a defensive checks and counters, i'd be more inclined to call the pokemon above soft counters, while they beat one-two sets, all of them lose to one or more sets as well.
But checks aren't reliable. That is what makes them checks. Shuca berry Dialga is a check, but it can't risk the Eq on the switch. Choice banded Glalie is a check, but loses to return on the switch. They are inherently unreliable.
Mega Salamence has a combination none of the other Megas have, its fast, it's powerful and its bulky with all the utility it wants to have, that's what sets it apart. It's hard to counter/check because not only is it powerful, but it's got the bulk that standard checks don't suffice.
that's nice, you're ignoring two its sets though, and that Mega Salamence chooses what it sets up on.
Defensive Dragon Dance, if they don't expect it and go for their priority move...
252 Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-107 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 110-133 (27.9 - 33.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 88-107 (22.3 - 27.2%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO
28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 50/50
252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 68-81 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 3HKO 50/50
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 79-94 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO Sub
196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 192-227 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
168 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 286-337 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Mega Salamence: 114-136 (29 - 34.6%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO
(Arceus doesn't run Adamant, if you're going to critic me for using "biased sets" don't do it yourself)
This also nicely ignores the fact that Its wallbreaker sets all pokemon before they can attack. And that Defensive Dragon Dance can run leftovers.
And what if you're running Lum berry? That opens up plethora of various options for setting up, you can set up on Ho-oh, P-don, Klefki ect.
To argue that Mega Salamence doesn't get to set up is such a biased, piece of shit argument to make. Personally I set up once a game, 70% of the time. I've also lost multiple time. I EVEN FOUGHT AGAINST Zangooser 's MEGA SALAMENCE PROOF SET, AND NOT ONLY DID I BUT HE SET UP WITH HIS OWN MEGA SALAMENCE AND SWEPT ME! Hahahaha. Fucking hell, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
I assume you're clicking Quick attack with Mega lopunny because you Mega Salamence has already set up, you realise that Mega Salamence can just roost up again?
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 136-160 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So you're literally roosted up on until he wants to kill you, what a great check. Most of the supposed "priority" users can just be roosted on and set up further on, because priority moves might pick him of if he's weakened, but they sure as hell aren't putting up enough offensive presence to deter him from roosting up on you. Only priority move thats relevant ( I THINK ) is Mega Glalie in that sense.
Klefki is probably your best bet for Mega Salamence... if you're running like...
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Magnet Rise
- Reflect
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunder Wave
Which literally menas Pdon switches in you every single time you come in, you forget he existed, no? (Sorry didn't mean to be hostile chopin). But yeah, klefki can be annoying, but Dazzling gleam a) isn't standard, it wants Play rough to break xerneas's substitues, and b) doesn't 2hko
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So yet again, if it wants to with its DD, roost, refresh, return set it can set up to +6 +6 in both stats before it attacks. Foul play might be your best bet here, but then you don't pressure special attackers... At all. Plus wall-breaker fire blasts/eqs and fries the keys of destiny.
T-wave and Will o Wisp = Refresh/Substitute/Lum berry
All your points have been addressed, if I skipped one please PM me because I have forgotten, but my counter argument is there.After playing this meta for a few weeks, peaking #1 a few times and experiencing a variety of different playstyles and unique strategies I have felt it is necessary to give my opinion on the current 'Mega Salamence + Item' suspect.
Not Broken. Firstly let me start by addressing the previous points stated by the opposition:
The first member of the opposition stated:
Firstly, I cannot see how you can compare the two metagames as they feature a completely different set of threats with different Pokemon rising in viability in this metagame due to their ability to compete with the Uber based mons. E.g. in Ubers, Mega Mawile is a C- ranked, whereas here it's one of the best, most dominant threats in the metagame. Stop comparing the two. Nothing makes me madder than when people compare Ubers and AG without accounting for the common occurrences of Mega Rayquaza and the lack of clauses. You're essentially doing the same thing here. Please stop.
Here we see AllJokesAside running the optimal Adamant DD Life Orb spread, assuming he can actually set up a Dragon Dance, he must rely on a Banded Mawile being locked into Sucker Punch? An ExtremeKiller Arceus that has been crippled to the point where a Stone Edge does zero to Mence? When are you planning on Dancing up? I do not see a chance for that to happen. I must say that sitting at 339 speed really isn't optimal with the omnipresent Lati formes, Diancie, Lucario, Timid/Jolly Arceus formes everywhere in the metagame. I find that you're just going to die to the faster threat regardless. In fact here are some calcs of my own I prepared that show how great that set is in the current metagame:
0 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 338-398 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 690-812 (208.4 - 245.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 Atk Life Orb Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 333-395 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I'll give you that Ice Punch may be ran solely for this Dragon, but it works)
Whereas you are not going to get to +1 with that set, and in any given opportunity your opponent will just destroy the Mence easily.
The second member of the opposition stated:
No.
Haha, Flying is a great offensive typing and I wholeheartedly agree. What I find hilarious about this is there are a few areas you decided to allow the fully defensive factor of your calcs affect your opponent's attack, whereas they wouldn't need to be fully defensive because of outspeeding reasons. I do like how you acknowledged that many mons, that you state Mega Mence breaks easily, actually win in both a 1v1 situation or in general. Ice Punch MMX will always outspeed and OHKO. It isn't far from standard. You can't get up to +1 on any of these mons. AJA would rely on the fact that they're just going to switch when you send Mence in. Abomasnow breaks you if you Dance unless you choose not to, Gallade Ice Punches and OHKOs while outspeeding your spread, Heracross Rock Blasts on your Dance unless you choose not to, Medicham wins if you Dance, Pinsir speed ties with your set, Venusaur is irrelevant, Beedrill is relevant, there's one, Lopunny Fake Out + Ice Punch, Sceptile outspeeds and OHKOs, Blaziken runs Sash or Protect and OHKOs with Edge, Mewtwo OHKO with Ice Punch and outspeed, Skymin can hax. Can you please redo these calculations without the +1 boost, it's just silly. If you're playing with Beedrill, you have to ensure you don't get forced into a 1v1 with Mega Mence, otherwise +1 will never occur. This is an issue, I agree; but stuff like that is why it's one of the best mons in the metagame.
One could make the argument, that the opposing mons are only using Ice coverage moves to beat Mega Mence, but they're actually standard sets. Before you bring it up AJA, I got it covered dw.
I want you to test Mega Latios in comparison to this Pokemon. I would argue that at +1, Latios OHKOs more than what you've listed. The fact that Salamence can do it, while having issues in doing it isn't assuring to any Mence user.
Test Ho-Oh, Test PDon, Test EKiller, Test GeoXern. Please just don't think Mence is the only mon without a definite counter (Mence actually has reasonable answers)
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 332-392 (74.9 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Rock: 272-320 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In these calcs, Salamence is required to run a Choice Band and maximum Attack. It loses the speed tie to Rock Arceus in the prior calculation. It is then locked into Earthquake and can easily become set up bait by Lati formes and other Flying-type set up Pokémon, which seem to be prevalent in the Megamons metagame. Judgment without investment can pick up an OHKO.
These stats can again be applied to Steel Arceus and Electric Arceus, however they fail to OHKO back. Hence Rock Arceus is the best Pokémon. One may argue, that Rock Arceus would only be ran then to check Mega Salamence, however it is also able to OHKO Ho-Oh and resist all it's attacks, bar Earthquake which can do ~50% maximum. They can all OHKO Mega Salamence if given Ice Beam coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 182-214 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Solrock, an uncommon and somewhat gimmicky Pokémon can wall Mega Salamence's attacks and Will-O-Wisp Mega Salamence. If it chooses to Refresh, it is being ran on a non-Banded set, and hence will not pick up the 2HKO regardless.
However this if we're following the banning philosophy put in place by AllJokesAside and ScorrchingTheaph. That no Pokémon can wall all sets, we have disproved this. Now I go on to further my argument in saying, that I can name many Pokémon where this IS ACTUALLY the case. Name a Pokémon that walls Primal Groudon other than Ground Arceus? I struggle myself due to the immense capabilities of the Pokémon at question. Let's bring up a few calculations.
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arceus-Water: 363-427 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Where all Water Arceus can do back is fire off a weak Ice Beam or hope for ten misses in a row. In the other situation listed above, in any given 1v1 situation, the Rock Arceus would benefit. After one boost of the Mega Salamence, it can get up to the desired attack stat, so don't bring up the possibility of Dragon Dancing to appropriate levels.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 301-355 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 260-306 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's literally offensive Groudon and it's still struggling to do anything effective! WOW! Now let's increase the bulk on that set. Here is standard Ubers support:
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Full physical bulk.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this is also going off the expectation that there are people who run Adamant Choice Band variants of Mega Salamence, which is most likely not the case due to the extra power being redundant if outsped by the Lati formes.
When are we banning PDon again?
You didn't list the counters.
No you're not, especially if you're not running max speed.
Its natural bulk is easily surpassed by many threats in the Megamons metagame due to the evident power creep. It is the same level of a threat, I agree. I only found a need to run one check for Mega Mence, heck I haven't even changed my team since the suspect and I'm still doing great. I think I appreciated your post the most as you acknowledged there are checks, whereas the others chose to skip the part where many Pokemon have this walling capability. There is one part that stood out for me though, is the Mega Rayquaza treatment you speak of. As an avid AG player, I find it disgusting that this is being compared to Mega Rayquaza. There isn't a single Pokemon in Anything Goes that walls every Mega Rayquaza set. Even Fairyceus gets 2HKO by certain Specs sets without being able to pick up the OHKO back. The meta had to adapt heavily to the presence of Mega Rayquaza, and I tend to have the thought that Fairy Arceus would be many ranks lower without its capability to check Mega Rayquaza. There are actually switch-ins to Mence here though, and they come in variety and they have not escalated in usage solely due to the presence of Mence but rather achieve a purpose + wall Mence. Rock Arceus is great for Ho-Oh, Charizards, Yveltal while obtaining Defog capabilities and winning against Lati formes. Skarmory walls the physical attacking sect of the metagame (bar a few mons due to typing and whatnot). E.g. It isn't 2HKOd by a +6 Arceus ExtremeSpeed. I find that rather than the metagame adjusting to Mence, Mence has adjusted to the metagame. The metagame is not threatened to the point that this needs to be banned.
I will continue with additional arguments in a separate post, as I doubt this will be enough to shake the bias from the Mence haters.
I really didn't have to make this post Zangooser because we're friends, but if you're going to make such a biased post, with such nitpicky, strawman arguments... Well I don't know what to say, this was hurtful.
Read this part if you don't want to read the wall
The biggest problem I have with Mega Salamence is that Mega Salamence is already the third best pokemon in the game. If we're going by Official tiers and rankings, Its Mega Rayquaza, Primal groudon, Mega Salamence. And what we have here is lack of consistency. Mega MMY and MMX are in the B ranks. They're horrible in ubers, but yet here they aren't allowed to hold an item, but a Mega that's S rank is? And Primal groudon, is at S+ so we restricted it. What's the consistency here? If defensive items don't add much compared to offensive ones and MMY and MMX are offensive megas, why are they, sitting in B rank not allowed to carry an item when Mega Salamence is? Is this the pattern?
S+ = No item
S = Item
B = No item
What makes MMY and MMX so broken that they can't have an item, but Mega Salamence, which is already leagues better, is allowed to hold one? Is one item enough to break a pokemon? I don't think so. None of them should be allowed to hold one, or all of them should. Or Mega mence shouldn't, Don shouldn't and MMx/MMy should.
Please restrict Mega Salamence from holding an item
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