Magmortar (OU Analysis)

[Oglemi]

Well, if the reasoning is that "it can't hurt", then a big 'ole underline needs to be stressed in the write-up that the only reason to consider Magmortar as your Choiced Fire-type is Thunderbolt. Otherwise they are better off choosing something else.

 

[SOMALIA]

I'm not sure what is going to be the fate of the Choice analysis, I stressed Thunderbolt's use a bit more in set comments for the choice set.

^Forgot Earthquake in AC or OC, it does deserve the mention as Heatran is the #1 OU Metagame threat. Also, note that Magmortar outspeeds Heatran where you mention Jolly Gyara / Mamoswine, since it's one of the reasons to use it over Heatran in the first place.

I mentioned Earthquake in other options....Read carefully through it.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

"It can't hurt" is not a meaningful reason to have an analysis written and on-site. Things go on-site out of necessity, not because we feel like writing them. There's a reason we've culled out stuff like Choice Scarf Suicune and the like; they're not good, and shouldn't have analyses just because they can. I don't mean to call anyone out here, I'd just really like to hear some solid and justified support for Choice-locked Magmortar. Thunderbolt is nifty, but not enough alone to make up for Magmortar's rather immense list of shortcomings. I won't overrule QC either way because that's rude, but if possible, I'd like to see if I can't convince QC to change their collective mind here.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"it can't hurt" is a horrendous reason to put a set on-site, especially one as bad as Choice Magmortar. Thunderbolt is literally Magmortar's only real benefit, because god knows it's absolutely terrible at everything else. It's slow, it's frail, it's SR weak, and other than Fire Blast (which has a number of dangerous resists), it has to resort to either weak or inaccurate coverage moves to do any sort of damage. It requires incredible support and ungodly prediction for it to be even anything near mediocre, and in most cases it's more of a liability to run it than not to run it.

I'm neutral on mixed wallbreaker Magmortar because I literally think that's the only merit it has, though I wouldn't be opposed to a SubPunch mention in AC, simply because Substitute eases prediction and Focus Punch actually hurts Blissey rather than denting it with a 20% chance of missing. Still, Sub + SR weak hurts too much for it to get a real set.

 

[panamaxis]

Why does it hurt to have the choice set up there? Can't Magmortar use a choice set well in some specific instances? Why do we write analyses... isn't the point to help the general public? In general isn't it better to give them more options then not enough? Of course I'm not saying we should put any old gimmick up there but this isn't really "any old gimmick" in my opinion.



Let me elaborate then. Choice Scarf Magmortar can revenge:

• Dragonite
• Gyarados
• Celebi/Shaymin
• Dragon Dance Tyranitar
• Starmie
• Jirachi
• Gengar

Not 'revenging' perse but it's also good to note that it outspeeds Choice Scarf Rotom and does a ton to it which heatran cannot as Rotom outspeeds and does a ton with Hydro Pump. It can also do massive damage to Gliscor with Hp Ice...Not to mention it has a great Fire STAB to work off of.

This is pretty impressive, how many other pokemon can you say can do that? Yes it has its downsides, SR Weakness, fireblasting a ttar and getting pursuited. Everything does.

I think this is enough to give it an analysis

Essentially my point isn't just "why not?" (~_~) it's "if it can be useful in specific situations why not?"

Anyway, I stand by my original position on the Choice Set.

P.S. I agree with Oglemi, stressing that Thunderbolt is the reason why you would use this as your Choice Fighting type would be good but if this gets overruled then I'll drop it.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Because basically anything can be useful in specific situations and still suck. This is why we rejected things like Choice Scarf Kingdra, Choice Scarf Suicune, Choice Scarf Gyarados, etc. They can basically do the exact same thing as this set, but that's less and less relevant considering that they're not that great outside of those situations.

Choice Magmortar is not a gimmick. It's just bad.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Choice Magmortar is not a gimmick. It's just bad.

It's not just Choice Magmortar. Don't try to kid me or yourself that Mix Magmortar is any good. Magmortar in general is bad; that's why it's NU. The whole point is to analyze the best ways to use a Pokemon. Choice Specs with a base SpA of 125 hits like a truck. Yes, it's inferior to Specs Heatran and other things, but it is good for Magmortar.

I stand by my original decision.

 

[Oglemi]

It's not just Choice Magmortar. Don't try to kid me or yourself that Mix Magmortar is any good. Magmortar in general is bad; that's why it's NU. The whole point is to analyze the best ways to use a Pokemon. Choice Specs with a base SpA of 125 hits like a truck. Yes, it's inferior to Specs Heatran and other things, but it is good for Magmortar.

I stand by my original decision.

So then are you saying we should give anything with a decent Attack/Special Attack stat an OU analysis?

If you're arguing that Choice Specs off base SpA of 125 hits like a truck and that deserves an analysis, then I could say Ursaring with a base 130 Attack stat with Quick Feet and a boosted Facade deserves an analysis, or Absol with the strongest priority move in the game coming off the same Attack stat.

This is a slippery-slope kind of going in the opposite direction of the whole banning debacle.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Magmortar should not have an analysis at all then.

 

[Oglemi]

Well, we're talking OU here. Magmortar doesn't deserve, imo, an OU analysis. To me, OU is reserved for the higher elite Pokemon, seeing as how it is the standard and all anyone cares about. Magmortar is not an elite Pokemon. He sucks in OU.

I'm not even going to get into why I think everything below OU/BL deserves at least an UU analysis, (bar shit like Luvdisc).

 

[Kevin Garrett]

That's what I mean. I agree with what you are saying. The Mix set is not worth an OU analysis. It is not really that effective compared to the other attackers in OU. Just like the Choice set, it is the best thing it can do. So if you insist that adding a Choice set is wrong and creates a slippery slope, so be it. But it certainly isn't going to get any kind of OU analysis if that set doesn't fly.

 

[Oglemi]

OK, my bad, glad we're on the same page. I posted this thread because I didn't feel Magmortar deserved an OU analysis.

It is up to you guys though. If you feel that the Choice or Mix sets are good enough as compared to every other OU set that's been approved, then by all means approve it. However, I get the feeling you guys think Magmortar isn't even as good as the other sets that have been rejected.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I get the whole "best thing it can do" idea for Pokemon like Honchkrow and Umbreon that are OU/BL but are absolutely horrendous in those tiers- they *must* have an analysis for OU simply by virtue of the fact that it's the only metagame they're legal in.

Magmortar has no such issue. It's NU, and the only kind of analysis it should get is a UU one. I personally think that choiced Magmortar is at least marginally acceptable in UU where there aren't nearly as many amazing wallbreakers or fast Fire-types (it's still getting major competition from Arcanine, but thunderbolt helps it a lot for beating milotic, and gastrodon's relative nonexistance makes fire/electric a lot better there).

Honestly, I want no part of Magmortar getting an OU analysis. What SHOULD happen is that some kind soul with a bit of experience should bother updating the damn Magmortar analysis for UU, so that there's something resembling a decent analysis for it. It doesn't need OU sets, it needs a real analysis for UU.

EDIT:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69720

get this shit done and this topic will become irrelevant

 

[Oglemi]

Working on it. I just didn't want to pass the revamp and either delete or remove the Magmortar OU analysis onsite without debating/discussing it first. And I guess I got what I asked for...

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Honestly, I'd say just blow up the OU analysis. The sets for UU are nearly identical, and not only actually function in UU's metagame, but are essentially identical to the OU sets (and probably work just as well). There's no need for even an OU wallbreaker set. Maybe an AC mention of altered EVs since IIRC you need more points of Attack to beat Blissey with Cross Chop.

EDIT: also oglemi do you ever come on irc because this would be a lot easier to discuss via irc pm or in #c&c

 

[Setsuna]

It sounds pretty good to me the idea of mentioning in the UU Choice set the possibility of running the same set in the upper tier. Then just leaving the Wall Breaker as the only OU set on the site. Let's see what panamaxis and my other QC colleagues think about this.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'd much rather just make mention of the OU Wallbreaker's EVs in the UU Wallbreaker set. The only difference between the sets is that the OU spread moves 104 extra EVs into Attack to deal more damage to Blissey with Cross Chop, but other than that, the moves/nature/item are essentially identical.

I don't want a mention of OU in the Choice sets, though. Choice Magmortar is "not a good pokemon" by any means, and simply having the sets on the analysis is enough- if someone really wants to go check out what Magmortar can do, they can just see that "magmortar can use choice items". There's no need to suggest that the use of Choiced Magmortar in OU is a good idea, becaues it really isn't.

 

[panamaxis]

Choice Scarf Kingdra, Choice Scarf Suicune, Choice Scarf Gyarados,

Scarf Kingdra is never good, Scarf Suicune is good for like one pokemon (SD Yache Chomp I think it was?) so I don't really get these comparisons but okay. I've actually seen Choice Scarf Gyarados used really well but this is irrelevant to the thread and I don't want to derail it anymore.

Think of some kid browsing the analyses and thinking "hey Magmortar is a really cool pokemon, I want to use that guy in my team!" That's the guy I'm thinking of when I approve stuff like this even if it isn't great. I just wanted to hopefully clarify my line of thinking but this is the last I'll say on that topic.

Anyway.....it looks like I'm in the minority here so whatever everyone else wants to do is fine by me. SDS's idea sounds fine to me.

 

[SOMALIA]

Guess this can be locked then...what a pity

 

[Setsuna]

I had been waiting for the UU update to go on-site before proceeding with this. I took care of it.